Re: How this bug can come out of its dead-end? Any suggestions?!
The device can be automatically mounted. It can be checked by its label that is the original label released with the distro. I think that should exists a relation between packages and the repositories on a cached manner. If the repository is on a umounted device (USB, CD/DVD-ROM) and is not possible to find it on a online repository or does not exist a active Internet connection, should be prompted to the user to put / plug the device and a additional thread is on background checking if the device is mounted by label. A timeout should be used on check thread to does not put the PackageKit to sleep forever waiting the path to be mounted. Should exists a functionality to collect data from the repositories on media, giving the user the chance to put each DVD/CD on a scanning process that is stored on the yum / PackageKit database. Should exists a configuration option to try to search first on offline repositories giving the user the chance to try use the media before try to download packages from Internet. I think that with this the PackageKit is not the responsible to mount the media. Only ideas. Thank you. Best regards. On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 5:08 AM, Andrew Haley a...@redhat.com wrote: On 05/09/2010 02:28 PM, Frank Murphy wrote: On 09/05/10 13:34, Hedayat Vatankhah wrote: If you have not see this at all, I've seen this frequently. Fedora sucks in this area for many years. I've seen it, so whatever arguments you bring; I KNOW that this bug IS very important and should be fixed. Currently there are various threads, about what Fedora is targeted at, those questions as yet rmein without a proper answr. Excuse me, I'm looking for a solution, not for wiping the problem statement. The solution for a new user to Linux, give hime Ubuntu-LTS. When he knows some more, give him Fedora. This is a bad argument IMO. Many users are advanced in some areas, but not others. The whole idea that Fedora is a distro for advanced users therefore it should be hard to use is absurd. The ability to install packages from a DVD just as easily as from the repos would be useful to a great many. Andrew. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel -- ___ Allann J. O. Silva I received the fundamentals of my education in school, but that was not enough. My real education, the superstructure, the details, the true architecture, I got out of the public library. For an impoverished child whose family could not afford to buy books, the library was the open door to wonder and achievement, and I can never be sufficiently grateful that I had the wit to charge through that door and make the most of it. (from I. Asimov, 1994) -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: How this bug can come out of its dead-end? Any suggestions?!
On 05/09/2010 02:28 PM, Frank Murphy wrote: On 09/05/10 13:34, Hedayat Vatankhah wrote: If you have not see this at all, I've seen this frequently. Fedora sucks in this area for many years. I've seen it, so whatever arguments you bring; I KNOW that this bug IS very important and should be fixed. Currently there are various threads, about what Fedora is targeted at, those questions as yet rmein without a proper answr. Excuse me, I'm looking for a solution, not for wiping the problem statement. The solution for a new user to Linux, give hime Ubuntu-LTS. When he knows some more, give him Fedora. This is a bad argument IMO. Many users are advanced in some areas, but not others. The whole idea that Fedora is a distro for advanced users therefore it should be hard to use is absurd. The ability to install packages from a DVD just as easily as from the repos would be useful to a great many. Andrew. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
DVD as repo was Re: How this bug can come out of its dead-end? Any suggestions?!
On 10/05/10 10:08, Andrew Haley wrote: --snip-- This is a bad argument IMO. Many users are advanced in some areas, but not others. The whole idea that Fedora is a distro for advanced users therefore it should be hard to use is absurd. How is it hard to use? excl. patented stuff. I can use it! I am not a Programmer\Packager. Never used a PC growing up or at school. Was with Windows up to and incl Vista. The ability to install packages from a DVD just as easily as from the repos would be useful to a great many. Look earlier in the thread, how to mount a DVD as a repo has been demonstrated. All it takes is adding method to wiki. How to use DVD\CD as repo Frank -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: DVD as repo was Re: How this bug can come out of its dead-end? Any suggestions?!
On 05/10/2010 10:16 AM, Frank Murphy wrote: On 10/05/10 10:08, Andrew Haley wrote: --snip-- This is a bad argument IMO. Many users are advanced in some areas, but not others. The whole idea that Fedora is a distro for advanced users therefore it should be hard to use is absurd. How is it hard to use? excl. patented stuff. I can use it! I am not a Programmer\Packager. Never used a PC growing up or at school. Was with Windows up to and incl Vista. The ability to install packages from a DVD just as easily as from the repos would be useful to a great many. Look earlier in the thread, how to mount a DVD as a repo has been demonstrated. Yes, it has. And it's more difficult that installing from the repos. Which was my point. Andrew. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: DVD as repo was Re: How this bug can come out of its dead-end? Any suggestions?!
On 10/05/10 10:54, Andrew Haley wrote: On 05/10/2010 10:16 AM, Frank Murphy wrote: --snip-- Look earlier in the thread, how to mount a DVD as a repo has been demonstrated. Yes, it has. And it's more difficult that installing from the repos. Which was my point. Andrew. But there is no need to change PackageKIt. PK, doesn't come in the equation (bringing it back to the o.post (bug) Compromise ;) add your dvd(media).repo to fedora-release-xx? May be worked in easier, maybe an RFE? Less messing, and those that need it have it. Frank -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: DVD as repo was Re: How this bug can come out of its dead-end? Any suggestions?!
On 05/10/2010 02:46 PM, Frank Murphy wrote: Look earlier in the thread, how to mount a DVD as a repo has been demonstrated. All it takes is adding method to wiki. How to use DVD\CD as repo Frank, We are trying to make the process easier by making it a click through process. It doesn't help if you insist that it can be done manually. Everyone is already aware of that. Rahul -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: DVD as repo was Re: How this bug can come out of its dead-end? Any suggestions?!
On 10/05/10 12:10, Rahul Sundaram wrote: --snip-- All it takes is adding method to wiki. How to use DVD\CD as repo Frank, We are trying to make the process easier by making it a click through process. It doesn't help if you insist that it can be done manually. Everyone is already aware of that. Rahul Hi Rahul, Check my reply from 11:04 http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2010-May/135944.html Should work for F13+ even for new users. Frank -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: DVD as repo was Re: How this bug can come out of its dead-end? Any suggestions?!
On 05/10/2010 04:48 PM, Frank Murphy wrote Hi Rahul, Check my reply from 11:04 http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2010-May/135944.html Should work for F13+ even for new users. What you describe is not as easy as enabling any other repository and there is no reason it should not be. We can make it easier and we are close to that. Just a single step needs to be complete. Rahul -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: DVD as repo was Re: How this bug can come out of its dead-end? Any suggestions?!
On 10/05/10 12:25, Rahul Sundaram wrote: --snip-- http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2010-May/135944.html Should work for F13+ even for new users. What you describe is not as easy as enabling any other repository How is it not as easy? fedora-release*rpm contains repos and keys basically. is repodir=/media/Fedora N arch that difficult. Which PK(F13) will enable\disable if DVD Mounted and there is no reason it should not be. We can make it easier and we are close to that. So can above. Just a single step needs to be complete. At the moment it looks like a long step. Frank -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: DVD as repo was Re: How this bug can come out of its dead-end? Any suggestions?!
On 05/10/2010 05:06 PM, Frank Murphy wrote: On 10/05/10 12:25, Rahul Sundaram wrote: --snip-- http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2010-May/135944.html Should work for F13+ even for new users. What you describe is not as easy as enabling any other repository How is it not as easy? It is not a click through process. Rahul -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: DVD as repo was Re: How this bug can come out of its dead-end? Any suggestions?!
On 10/05/10 12:48, Rahul Sundaram wrote: --snipp-- How is it not as easy? It is not a click through process. Rahul How can you not click if it shows up in gnome-packagekit-extra? (admin/software/sources) Will not the packages be availabel in add\remove? They are on my tests. No user intervention required. (allow for the fact my test repo not incl. in f*release*) Frank -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: DVD as repo was Re: How this bug can come out of its dead-end? Any suggestions?!
On 05/10/2010 05:22 PM, Frank Murphy wrote: On 10/05/10 1 How can you not click if it shows up in gnome-packagekit-extra? (admin/software/sources) Will not the packages be availabel in add\remove? They are on my tests. No user intervention required. (allow for the fact my test repo not incl. in f*release*) DVD repo does NOT show up automatically in the repository listing when you install gnome-packagekit-extras. There are manual fiddling involved in setting up a repo. That shouldn't be necessary. Try not to derail the discussions, please. Rahul -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: DVD as repo was Re: How this bug can come out of its dead-end? Any suggestions?!
On 10/05/10 13:02, Rahul Sundaram wrote: --snipp-- DVD repo does NOT show up automatically in the repository listing when you install gnome-packagekit-extras. I said if DVD.repo is releases with fedora-release* it *will* show up in default There are manual fiddling involved in setting up a repo. No, as above. That shouldn't be necessary. Try not to derail the discussions, please. Please read first, before judging. Frank -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: DVD as repo was Re: How this bug can come out of its dead-end? Any suggestions?!
On 05/10/2010 05:36 PM, Frank Murphy wrote: On 10/05/10 13:02, Rahul Sundaram wrote: --snipp-- DVD repo does NOT show up automatically in the repository listing when you install gnome-packagekit-extras. I said if DVD.repo is releases with fedora-release* it *will* show up in defaul DVD repo is clearly not part of fedora-release at the moment. We are talking about the current reality. If you file a RFE and get fedora-release updated, then it will become easier but that is not the case now. Rahul -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: DVD as repo was Re: How this bug can come out of its dead-end? Any suggestions?!
On 10/05/10 13:10, Rahul Sundaram wrote: --snip-- DVD repo is clearly not part of fedora-release at the moment. We are talking about the current reality. If you file a RFE and get fedora-release updated, then it will become easier but that is not the case now. Rahul Neither is fixing the RFE for PK, as it's notabug. But I firmly believe creting a text file, is the easier\maybe safer challenge. Frank -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: DVD as repo was Re: How this bug can come out of its dead-end? Any suggestions?!
On 05/10/2010 05:43 PM, Frank Murphy wrote: Neither is fixing the RFE for PK, as it's notabug. But I firmly believe creting a text file, is the easier\maybe safer challenge. PackageKit developers disagree with you. Since they are the ones doing the work involved, their opinion has more weight. Besides a static repo file is less flexible than the ability for PackageKit to handle media dynamically. Meanwhile, you can push for the solution you recommend by filling a RFE against fedora-release. Rahul -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: How this bug can come out of its dead-end? Any suggestions?!
/*Frank Murphy frankl...@gmail.com*/ wrote on 05/08/2010 10:51:42 PM +0450: On 08/05/10 19:15, Hedayat Vatnakhah wrote: Please have a look at the last comments of the bug. Most of the implementation is done, the only missing part is how to mount the CD/DVD in PackageKit! Thanks, Hedayat If you can install gnome-packagekit-extra if using Gnome? Is houls allow you to choose which sources\repos to use. No, the problem is this: PackageKit does not know how to mount a removable media. As noted in the last comment of the mentioned bug, Muayyad Alsadi has implemented four methods for mounting a removable media: using DeviceKit, using GIO, using HAL and calling the system's mount command. The DeviceKit implementation cannot mount the device because of default system policies (the backend is running as root), GIO has a bug and does not allow mounting, HAL is deprecated, and PackageKit developer doesn't like mounting using the system's mount command! Thanks, Hedayat -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: How this bug can come out of its dead-end? Any suggestions?!
On Sun, 2010-05-09 at 11:22 +0430, Hedayat Vatankhah wrote: Frank Murphy frankl...@gmail.com wrote on 05/08/2010 10:51:42 PM +0450: On 08/05/10 19:15, Hedayat Vatnakhah wrote: Please have a look at the last comments of the bug. Most of the implementation is done, the only missing part is how to mount the CD/DVD in PackageKit! Thanks, Hedayat If you can install gnome-packagekit-extra if using Gnome? Is houls allow you to choose which sources\repos to use. No, the problem is this: PackageKit does not know how to mount a removable media. As noted in the last comment of the mentioned bug, Muayyad Alsadi has implemented four methods for mounting a removable media: using DeviceKit, using GIO, using HAL and calling the system's mount command. The DeviceKit implementation cannot mount the device because of default system policies (the backend is running as root), GIO has a bug and does not allow mounting, HAL is deprecated, and PackageKit developer doesn't like mounting using the system's mount command! Thanks, Hedayat hey, A suggestion. Instead of working specifically and trying to mount the dvd/cd, why not have an option that says use a custom/local repo It could open an explorer window and let you choose the repo directory. Since dvds/cds are mounted by default on insertion, the user could easily select it and use it as an additional repo. This way, you (packagekit devs) don't have to worry about mounting the dvd/cd media, and are also providing support for any local repos that people might want to use (copied repos using USB hard drives etc). You won't need to get the media.repo and configure it to the correct path etc. too. Comments? -- regards, Ankur - FAS : ankursinha ; franciscod @ Freenode - gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys 5E9BF638 signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: How this bug can come out of its dead-end? Any suggestions?!
On 09/05/10 07:52, Hedayat Vatankhah wrote: --snip-- No, the problem is this: PackageKit does not know how to mount a removable media. It doesn't need to. --snip-- Mount DVD as normal. your dvd.repo : baseurl:file://path/to/dvd/(repodata) eg: baseurl=file:/media/Fedora 12 i386 DVD enabled=1 gpgcheck=true Why fix a bug that doesn't need to be fixed. Above method works for me. -- Regards, Frank Murphy UTF_8 Encoded, Fedora 64 32 bit attachment: Screenshot - 090510 - 08:11:03.png-- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: How this bug can come out of its dead-end? Any suggestions?!
On ۱۰/۰۵/۰۹ 11:41, Frank Murphy wrote: On 09/05/10 07:52, Hedayat Vatankhah wrote: --snip-- No, the problem is this: PackageKit does not know how to mount a removable media. It doesn't need to. --snip-- Mount DVD as normal. your dvd.repo : baseurl:file://path/to/dvd/(repodata) eg: baseurl=file:/media/Fedora 12 i386 DVD enabled=1 gpgcheck=true Why fix a bug that doesn't need to be fixed. Above method works for me. Personally I do know how to use DVD as a repository, but that's not suitable for users AT ALL. This bug is about OUT OF THE BOX installation media support by packagekit. Thanks, Hedayat -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: How this bug can come out of its dead-end? Any suggestions?!
On ۱۰/۰۵/۰۹ 11:43, Ankur Sinha wrote: On Sun, 2010-05-09 at 11:22 +0430, Hedayat Vatankhah wrote: Frank Murphyfrankl...@gmail.com wrote on 05/08/2010 10:51:42 PM +0450: On 08/05/10 19:15, Hedayat Vatnakhah wrote: Please have a look at the last comments of the bug. Most of the implementation is done, the only missing part is how to mount the CD/DVD in PackageKit! Thanks, Hedayat If you can install gnome-packagekit-extra if using Gnome? Is houls allow you to choose which sources\repos to use. No, the problem is this: PackageKit does not know how to mount a removable media. As noted in the last comment of the mentioned bug, Muayyad Alsadi has implemented four methods for mounting a removable media: using DeviceKit, using GIO, using HAL and calling the system's mount command. The DeviceKit implementation cannot mount the device because of default system policies (the backend is running as root), GIO has a bug and does not allow mounting, HAL is deprecated, and PackageKit developer doesn't like mounting using the system's mount command! Thanks, Hedayat hey, A suggestion. Instead of working specifically and trying to mount the dvd/cd, why not have an option that says use a custom/local repo It could open an explorer window and let you choose the repo directory. Since dvds/cds are mounted by default on insertion, the user could easily select it and use it as an additional repo. This way, you (packagekit devs) don't have to worry about mounting the dvd/cd media, and are also providing support for any local repos that people might want to use (copied repos using USB hard drives etc). You won't need to get the media.repo and configure it to the correct path etc. too. Comments? First of all, such changes should be discussed with the PackageKit author. AFAIK, he doesn't agree with such changes. Also, Muayyad's work seems to cover USB media support too (you can see this page for more information: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/MediaRepo). And your suggestion will not work with split media IMHO. Personally, I think even the solution to use system's mount command is much better than the current situation, but apparently the PackageKit author doesn't like it at all! Thanks, Hedayat -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: How this bug can come out of its dead-end? Any suggestions?!
On 09/05/10 10:28, Hedayat Vatankhah wrote: --snip-- eg: baseurl=file:/media/Fedora 12 i386 DVD enabled=1 gpgcheck=true Why fix a bug that doesn't need to be fixed. Above method works for me. Personally I do know how to use DVD as a repository, but that's not suitable for users AT ALL. This bug is about OUT OF THE BOX installation media support by packagekit. That *should not* be default for most users, as it will end up breaking quite a lot, if used with other repos. (updates,updates-tesing, 3rd party) as %requires may have changed quite a bit since DVD was released. -- Regards, Frank Murphy UTF_8 Encoded, Fedora 64 32 bit -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: How this bug can come out of its dead-end? Any suggestions?!
Frank Murphy wrote: That *should not* be default for most users, as it will end up breaking quite a lot, if used with other repos. (updates,updates-tesing, 3rd party) If using the DVD together with the updates repository would break quite a lot, then how can we all be using the stable and updates repositories together without it breaking quite a lot? What is the DVD, if not a subset of the stable repository with higher bandwidth? Björn Persson signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: How this bug can come out of its dead-end? Any suggestions?!
On 09/05/10 12:34, Björn Persson wrote: Frank Murphy wrote: That *should not* be default for most users, as it will end up breaking quite a lot, if used with other repos. (updates,updates-tesing, 3rd party) If using the DVD together with the updates repository would break quite a lot, That's just my bad explanation. (not enough coffee) What I should have said: If the user does not know how to mount a CD\DVD. (which is automatic?) Should they be given usage of PackageKit, which at the least would require root (p\w) or sudo (within terminal). If it is a bandwidth $cost, could not the CD\DVD ~/packages be copied to ~/local/folder, and shared with a number of users. along with update\3rd Party repo (as they are downloaded). using yum*local, hence reducing the $cost. (also reduces media swapping) Still no need for a PackageKit rfe fix. Frank -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: How this bug can come out of its dead-end? Any suggestions?!
/*Frank Murphy frankl...@gmail.com*/ wrote on 05/09/2010 4:20:15 PM +0450: On 09/05/10 12:34, Björn Persson wrote: Frank Murphy wrote: That *should not* be default for most users, as it will end up breaking quite a lot, if used with other repos. (updates,updates-tesing, 3rd party) If using the DVD together with the updates repository would break quite a lot, That's just my bad explanation. (not enough coffee) What I should have said: If the user does not know how to mount a CD\DVD. (which is automatic?) Should they be given usage of PackageKit, which at the least would require root (p\w) or sudo (within terminal). If it is a bandwidth $cost, could not the CD\DVD ~/packages be copied to ~/local/folder, and shared with a number of users. along with update\3rd Party repo (as they are downloaded). using yum*local, hence reducing the $cost. (also reduces media swapping) Still no need for a PackageKit rfe fix. Frank Well, sorry but you simply don't get it! Give a Fedora DVD to a new Linux user and tell him to install it on his own system. Then ask him to install Eclipse from DVD since he will most probably NOT opt to customize his package set in the installation process. Make sure that he has no Internet access, and do NOT help him in the process. He will be certainly unable to do so. Then do this for him yourself and see how frightened is him. If you get him an Ubuntu DVD, you'll see that he can happily use it without your help. And you'll see why he will think that Ubuntu is much easier than Fedora. If you have not see this at all, I've seen this frequently. Fedora sucks in this area for many years. I've seen it, so whatever arguments you bring; I KNOW that this bug IS very important and should be fixed. Excuse me, I'm looking for a solution, not for wiping the problem statement. Thanks, Hedayat -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: How this bug can come out of its dead-end? Any suggestions?!
On 09/05/10 13:34, Hedayat Vatankhah wrote: --snip-- Frank Well, sorry but you simply don't get it! Give a Fedora DVD to a new Linux user and tell him to install it on his own system. Then ask him to install Eclipse from DVD since he will most probably NOT opt to customize his package set in the installation process. I have told you how to do this. Make sure that he has no Internet access, and do NOT help him in the process. He will be certainly unable to do so. Then do this for him yourself and see how frightened is him. Have not many given tips. If you get him an Ubuntu DVD, you'll see that he can happily use it without your help. And you'll see why he will think that Ubuntu is much easier than Fedora. It is!, so what? If you have not see this at all, I've seen this frequently. Fedora sucks in this area for many years. I've seen it, so whatever arguments you bring; I KNOW that this bug IS very important and should be fixed. Currently there are various threads, about what Fedora is targeted at, those questions as yet rmein without a proper answr. Excuse me, I'm looking for a solution, not for wiping the problem statement. The solution for a new user to Linux, give hime Ubuntu-LTS. When he knows some more, give him Fedora. Frank -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: How this bug can come out of its dead-end? Any suggestions?!
Frank Murphy wrote: That *should not* be default for most users, as it will end up breaking quite a lot, if used with other repos. (updates,updates-tesing, 3rd party) as %requires may have changed quite a bit since DVD was released. That shouldn't be a problem as long as updates is enabled. A more pertinent reason not to enable this by default is that many users will misplace the DVD and prefer just downloading the packages. Many of them have updates anyway. And to really suit users with no or a very slow Internet connection, we'd also have to disable updates by default which we definitely DO NOT want. As I've already said more than once, IMHO we should just add broadband Internet connection to Fedora's system requirements, it's effectively already required. Sure, you can get it to work without it with some manual workarounds, but for Fedora to work properly out of the box, and to get updates (including security fixes, critical bugfixes etc.), you need a (reasonably fast) Internet connection. Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: How this bug can come out of its dead-end? Any suggestions?!
/*Kevin Kofler kevin.kof...@chello.at*/ wrote on 05/09/2010 9:24:04 PM +0450: Frank Murphy wrote: That *should not* be default for most users, as it will end up breaking quite a lot, if used with other repos. (updates,updates-tesing, 3rd party) as %requires may have changed quite a bit since DVD was released. That shouldn't be a problem as long as updates is enabled. A more pertinent reason not to enable this by default is that many users will misplace the DVD and prefer just downloading the packages. Many of them have updates anyway. For those users, they will receive updated packages from the internet if there are any updates. And if there isn't any, yes the packages will be installed from DVD. But this doesn't seem to be much inconvenience, and also will be the natural thing to happen IMHO. I think the reasons for having this enabled by default (while I've never talked about having it enabled by default; being able to enable it using the software sources selection is much much more convenient than the current workarounds) are more acceptable. Anyway, I've never talked about having them enabled by default. And to really suit users with no or a very slow Internet connection, we'd also have to disable updates by default which we definitely DO NOT want. No. It would suffice if PackageKit disables/discards online repositories when there is no network connection and enables them otherwise. Interestingly, the latest packagekit in Fedora 13 disables online repositories (and print errors) if their connection time out (and so it is still usable), but will print errors and stops working if system is offline! (it should do the same thing when offline). So, you can have the online repositories enabled by default and suit such users at the same time. As I've already said more than once, IMHO we should just add broadband Internet connection to Fedora's system requirements, it's effectively already required. Sure, you can get it to work without it with some manual workarounds, but for Fedora to work properly out of the box, and to get updates (including security fixes, critical bugfixes etc.), you need a (reasonably fast) Internet connection. 1. Such manual workarounds can be fixed pretty easy; and IMHO they should be fixed anyways. Everybody might sometimes be offline, and should be able to work reasonably in that cases too (e.g. it is really ridiculous to be unable to remove a package from your system when you are offline because yum/packagekit cannot update repository metadata!). Also I think the ability to install packages from installation media (and any removable media containing a repository) is still reasonable too (you can get updates as soon as you are online again). 2. Almost all modern OSes provide updates, so do you want to say that a user with no or poor internet connection should not use them?!! Also notice that most of security fixes are not that important for such users anyway! Also, Fedora is not the only Linux distribution who have such online repositories; Debian has had them even at the times which broadband internet connection was not so common (and this is IMHO why its package manager treats such users much better). Thanks, Hedayat Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: How this bug can come out of its dead-end? Any suggestions?!
sön 2010-05-09 klockan 11:22 +0430 skrev Hedayat Vatankhah: No, the problem is this: PackageKit does not know how to mount a removable media. Why do you even need to mount it? Removable media is of course automatically mounted when you insert it (if someone is logged in on the console). /Alexander -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: How this bug can come out of its dead-end? Any suggestions?!
sön 2010-05-09 klockan 18:54 +0200 skrev Kevin Kofler: Many of them have updates anyway. Use delta-RPMs (combining not the installed old version but the old version on the DVD with the downloaded drpm). /Alexander -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: How this bug can come out of its dead-end? Any suggestions?!
On ۱۰/۰۵/۰۹ 10:43, Alexander � wrote: sön 2010-05-09 klockan 11:22 +0430 skrev Hedayat Vatankhah: No, the problem is this: PackageKit does not know how to mount a removable media. Why do you even need to mount it? Removable media is of course automatically mounted when you insert it (if someone is logged in on the console). You can see comments 25 till end. I've proposed it once, but ... . I'll try again! But I'm just thinking if the problem with DeviceKit is not really a bug: a process running as root is able to mount something using the mount system call or just by calling the system's mount command, so why should it be unable to do so using DeviceKit?! I wonder if it is reasonable! Thanks, Hedayat /Alexander -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: How this bug can come out of its dead-end? Any suggestions?!
On Sun, 2010-05-09 at 20:13 +0200, Alexander Boström wrote: sön 2010-05-09 klockan 11:22 +0430 skrev Hedayat Vatankhah: No, the problem is this: PackageKit does not know how to mount a removable media. Why do you even need to mount it? Removable media is of course automatically mounted when you insert it (if someone is logged in on the console). That's a nautilus behavior, controlled by the gconf keys: /apps/nautilus/preferences/media_automount /apps/nautilus/preferences/media_automount_open Either one is enough to cause automounting. Both are enabled by default, and only the second can be disabled through the UI, so it's unlikely that a beginning user would have automounting disabled unless the sysadmin did it for him/her. Assuming nautilus automounting is enabled, would that be enough for PackageKit to work properly or is there some other issue? It would still be nice not to make that assumption. -- Matt -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
How this bug can come out of its dead-end? Any suggestions?!
Hi all, There is a bug in Fedora package management since FC4 (except Fedora 8) that potentially affects ALL of the Fedora installation DVD users (people who are not annoyed by this bug will probably find other alternatives more suitable (e.g. Live CD install, Network install or the new BFO if I spell correctly!)). The reason that this bug is still open is not technical, but almost completely political. And as I see it in the current state, it is not going to be fixed anytime soon. The mentioned bug is this one: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=435625 (installation media support in PackageKit). While a user can create a repo file for the DVD's mount point and go with it, but that is not acceptable for a new user to live with such a solution. It is really annoying that the installation DVD is useless for an ordinary user after installation. And this is really unfortunate that this bug is still open because of such small issues. I hope that somebody could suggest something which can make some progress in this area. Good luck, Hedayat -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: How this bug can come out of its dead-end? Any suggestions?!
On Sat, May 8, 2010 at 3:18 PM, Hedayat Vatankhah heda...@grad.com wrote: Hi all, There is a bug in Fedora package management since FC4 (except Fedora 8) that potentially affects ALL of the Fedora installation DVD users (people who are not annoyed by this bug will probably find other alternatives more suitable (e.g. Live CD install, Network install or the new BFO if I spell correctly!)). The reason that this bug is still open is not technical, but almost completely political. And as I see it in the current state, it is not going to be fixed anytime soon. The mentioned bug is this one: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=435625 (installation media support in PackageKit). While a user can create a repo file for the DVD's mount point and go with it, but that is not acceptable for a new user to live with such a solution. It is really annoying that the installation DVD is useless for an ordinary user after installation. And this is really unfortunate that this bug is still open because of such small issues. Why? The installation DVD is for installing the system that's it. Installing software from it afterwards is pointless anyway as updates might cause dep conflicts and or provide newer/fixed versions anyway. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: How this bug can come out of its dead-end? Any suggestions?!
Am Samstag, den 08.05.2010, 15:31 +0200 schrieb drago01: On Sat, May 8, 2010 at 3:18 PM, Hedayat Vatankhah heda...@grad.com wrote: Hi all, There is a bug in Fedora package management since FC4 (except Fedora 8) that potentially affects ALL of the Fedora installation DVD users (people who are not annoyed by this bug will probably find other alternatives more suitable (e.g. Live CD install, Network install or the new BFO if I spell correctly!)). The reason that this bug is still open is not technical, but almost completely political. And as I see it in the current state, it is not going to be fixed anytime soon. The mentioned bug is this one: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=435625 (installation media support in PackageKit). While a user can create a repo file for the DVD's mount point and go with it, but that is not acceptable for a new user to live with such a solution. It is really annoying that the installation DVD is useless for an ordinary user after installation. And this is really unfortunate that this bug is still open because of such small issues. Why? The installation DVD is for installing the system that's it. Installing software from it afterwards is pointless anyway as updates might cause dep conflicts and or provide newer/fixed versions anyway. What if the user has a poor internet quality, if any and (s)he wants to install only some packages directly from the dvd? Just using the dvd and no updates at all won't cause dep conflicts. In this special case, it would be nice to have the possibility for easily install from the dvd, but not a must have in general... Thomas -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: How this bug can come out of its dead-end? Any suggestions?!
On 05/08/2010 06:31 AM, drago01 wrote: The installation DVD is for installing the system that's it. That's only part of it. There's around 4GB of data, and more than a few persons would like to use via PackageKit after the initial install, too. I frequently install just the Internet Desktop, then add other packages days or weeks later. Installing software from it afterwards is pointless anyway as updates might cause dep conflicts and or provide newer/fixed versions anyway. Updated media are produced by others. For instance, Fedora Unity produced an updated DVD of Fedora 12 as of March 3: http://spins.fedoraunity.org/spins Using pungi I generate an updated DVD in about half an hour (after updating my cache of the .rpm.) In many many second- and third-world places outside of larger cities, high-speed internet is only a dream. In the US there are several million persons whose fastest internet connection is a 53 Kbit/second dialup modem, and tens of millions with only 1.5 Mbit/second DSL. A physical DVD via postal mail (or borrowed from a neighbor) is much faster, particularly when something doesn't work correctly the first time. Practical progress: Looking at the bug https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=435625 (installation media support in PackageKit) it seems to me that much of the angst involves split media (mounting multiple CDs.) Why not implement major partial progress by requiring that a single platter [only] be mounted before invoking PackageKit? Then a DVD or the correct CD (typically one of five or six) succeeds, otherwise you get told which platter to mount before trying again (perhaps accumulating .rpms in a temporary on-disk repo, etc.) This is not a slick-and-shiny-100% solution, but it can work. -- -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: How this bug can come out of its dead-end? Any suggestions?!
On ۱۰/۰۵/۰۸ 06:01, drago01 wrote: On Sat, May 8, 2010 at 3:18 PM, Hedayat Vatankhahheda...@grad.com wrote: Hi all, There is a bug in Fedora package management since FC4 (except Fedora 8) that potentially affects ALL of the Fedora installation DVD users (people who are not annoyed by this bug will probably find other alternatives more suitable (e.g. Live CD install, Network install or the new BFO if I spell correctly!)). The reason that this bug is still open is not technical, but almost completely political. And as I see it in the current state, it is not going to be fixed anytime soon. The mentioned bug is this one: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=435625 (installation media support in PackageKit). While a user can create a repo file for the DVD's mount point and go with it, but that is not acceptable for a new user to live with such a solution. It is really annoying that the installation DVD is useless for an ordinary user after installation. And this is really unfortunate that this bug is still open because of such small issues. Why? The installation DVD is for installing the system that's it. Installing software from it afterwards is pointless anyway as updates might cause dep conflicts and or provide newer/fixed versions anyway. Somebody who have a good internet connection and will install any new packages from the internet will not go with installing from DVD at the first place. Why should somebody download more than 3GB and use a very small amount of it at the installation time and then install any extra packages from the internet?! Such a person will probably use LiveCD install, or he can happily download the netinst iso (which is just about 150MB) and then install directly from the internet. Notice that a lot of DVD users do not download it themselves and will buy it or receive it from another person. And they need to be able to use it as much as possible. If it is still ambiguous, let me bring an example: currently I have only a dial-up connection at home. As a result, my Fedora 11 installation is not updated at all (maybe only its pidgin, which I have downloaded by hand and installed). Even downloading the repository metadata is something I try to avoid as much as possible. So, I almost NEVER update my Linux installation in home, except if I really need it or it is so small (thanks to delta rpm, it is possible to update a little more). There are many users which will almost never install any packages from the internet except when they really need it, and also you should be aware that many prefer to buy DVDs which contain additional software rather than downloading that themselves. Goo luck, Hedayat -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: How this bug can come out of its dead-end? Any suggestions?!
Hi again, /*John Reiser jrei...@bitwagon.com*/ wrote on شنبه ۰۸ مه ۱۰، ۱۹:۵۴:۰۳: On 05/08/2010 06:31 AM, drago01 wrote: The installation DVD is for installing the system that's it. That's only part of it. There's around 4GB of data, and more than a few persons would like to use via PackageKit after the initial install, too. I frequently install just the Internet Desktop, then add other packages days or weeks later. Installing software from it afterwards is pointless anyway as updates might cause dep conflicts and or provide newer/fixed versions anyway. Updated media are produced by others. For instance, Fedora Unity produced an updated DVD of Fedora 12 as of March 3: http://spins.fedoraunity.org/spins Using pungi I generate an updated DVD in about half an hour (after updating my cache of the .rpm.) In many many second- and third-world places outside of larger cities, high-speed internet is only a dream. In the US there are several million persons whose fastest internet connection is a 53 Kbit/second dialup modem, and tens of millions with only 1.5 Mbit/second DSL. A physical DVD via postal mail (or borrowed from a neighbor) is much faster, particularly when something doesn't work correctly the first time. Practical progress: Looking at the bug https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=435625 (installation media support in PackageKit) it seems to me that much of the angst involves split media (mounting multiple CDs.) Why not implement major partial progress by requiring that a single platter [only] be mounted before invoking PackageKit? Then a DVD or the correct CD (typically one of five or six) succeeds, otherwise you get told which platter to mount before trying again (perhaps accumulating .rpms in a temporary on-disk repo, etc.) This is not a slick-and-shiny-100% solution, but it can work. Please have a look at the last comments of the bug. Most of the implementation is done, the only missing part is how to mount the CD/DVD in PackageKit! Thanks, Hedayat -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: How this bug can come out of its dead-end? Any suggestions?!
On ۱۰/۰۵/۰۸ 06:01, drago01 wrote: On Sat, May 8, 2010 at 3:18 PM, Hedayat Vatankhahheda...@grad.com wrote: Hi all, There is a bug in Fedora package management since FC4 (except Fedora 8) that potentially affects ALL of the Fedora installation DVD users (people who are not annoyed by this bug will probably find other alternatives more suitable (e.g. Live CD install, Network install or the new BFO if I spell correctly!)). The reason that this bug is still open is not technical, but almost completely political. And as I see it in the current state, it is not going to be fixed anytime soon. The mentioned bug is this one: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=435625 (installation media support in PackageKit). While a user can create a repo file for the DVD's mount point and go with it, but that is not acceptable for a new user to live with such a solution. It is really annoying that the installation DVD is useless for an ordinary user after installation. And this is really unfortunate that this bug is still open because of such small issues. Why? The installation DVD is for installing the system that's it. Installing software from it afterwards is pointless anyway as updates might cause dep conflicts and or provide newer/fixed versions anyway. Somebody who have a good internet connection and will install any new packages from the internet will not go with installing from DVD at the first place. Why should somebody download more than 3GB and use a very small amount of it at the installation time and then install any extra packages from the internet?! Such a person will probably use LiveCD install, or he can happily download the netinst iso (which is just about 150MB) and then install directly from the internet. Notice that a lot of DVD users do not download it themselves and will buy it or receive it from another person. And they need to be able to use it as much as possible. If it is still ambiguous, let me bring an example: currently I have only a dial-up connection at home. As a result, my Fedora 11 installation is not updated at all (maybe only its pidgin, which I have downloaded by hand and installed). Even downloading the repository metadata is something I try to avoid as much as possible. So, I almost NEVER update my Linux installation in home, except if I really need it or it is so small (thanks to delta rpm, it is possible to update a little more). There are many users which will almost never install any packages from the internet except when they really need it, and also you should be aware that many prefer to buy DVDs which contain additional software rather than downloading that themselves. Goo luck, Hedayat -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: How this bug can come out of its dead-end? Any suggestions?!
On 08/05/10 19:15, Hedayat Vatnakhah wrote: Please have a look at the last comments of the bug. Most of the implementation is done, the only missing part is how to mount the CD/DVD in PackageKit! Thanks, Hedayat If you can install gnome-packagekit-extra if using Gnome? Is houls allow you to choose which sources\repos to use. -- Regards, Frank Murphy UTF_8 Encoded, Fedora 64 32 bit -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: How this bug can come out of its dead-end? Any suggestions?!
On Sat, May 08, 2010 at 03:31:04PM +0200, drago01 wrote: Why? The installation DVD is for installing the system that's it. strongly disagree. Many people do not like to spend much time during installation to decide which packages to install. It should be easy to do it after installation. Richard -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
