Re: Multirelease effort: Moving to Python 3

On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 06:49:41AM -0400, Bohuslav Kabrda wrote: > ━━━ > > /me goes to the upstream thread to ask Nick what distutils/setuptools/etc > do when they rewrite shebang lines. > > Hmm, patching setuptoo

Re: Multirelease effort: Moving to Python 3

On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 06:49:41AM -0400, Bohuslav Kabrda wrote: > ━━━ > > . Which means patching in a bunch of packages. For os_install_post > modification you're talking about a check that fails the build if >

Re: Multirelease effort: Moving to Python 3

- Original Message - > On Jul 25, 2013 12:13 AM, "Bohuslav Kabrda" < bkab...@redhat.com > wrote: > > > > - Original Message - > > > Since Python upstream really cares about these things, I started a > > > discussion > > > about this on their mailing list [1]. So far, it seems that

Re: Multirelease effort: Moving to Python 3

On Jul 25, 2013 12:13 AM, "Bohuslav Kabrda" wrote: > > - Original Message - > > Since Python upstream really cares about these things, I started a discussion > > about this on their mailing list [1]. So far, it seems that people prefer my > > mental model, but this is judging from just 4 a

Re: Multirelease effort: Moving to Python 3

On 23/07/13 09:28 PM, Toshio Kuratomi wrote: Note -- if you want infrastructure to move to python3, the first step would be to get python3 into EPEL. There are quite a few things that could go into an EPEL python3 stack once we have python-3.3 there. (Although EPEL will probably have to decide

Re: Multirelease effort: Moving to Python 3

On 23/07/13 12:23 PM, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: Don't be disappointed. Go help. The above has been the plan since Python 3 came out. We can plan all we want, but if no one has time to work on it then it doesn't mean much. We can't shut down the old infrastructure and we can't stop impleme

Re: Multirelease effort: Moving to Python 3

- Original Message - > Since Python upstream really cares about these things, I started a discussion > about this on their mailing list [1]. So far, it seems that people prefer my > mental model, but this is judging from just 4 answers, 2 of which mentioned > this. So let's wait and see. >

Re: Multirelease effort: Moving to Python 3

- Original Message - > On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 02:40:56AM -0400, Bohuslav Kabrda wrote: > > > > The problem is that you're basically saying "my mental model is the right > > one", which is not necessarily true for everyone (and not necessarily true > > generally). Taking your arguments a b

Re: Multirelease effort: Moving to Python 3

On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 6:32 AM, Toshio Kuratomi wrote: > On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 02:40:56AM -0400, Bohuslav Kabrda wrote: >> >> The problem is that you're basically saying "my mental model is the right >> one", which is not necessarily true for everyone (and not necessarily true >> generally). Ta

Re: Multirelease effort: Moving to Python 3

Dne 24.7.2013 06:32, Toshio Kuratomi napsal(a): On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 02:40:56AM -0400, Bohuslav Kabrda wrote: The problem is that you're basically saying "my mental model is the right one", which is not necessarily true for everyone (and not necessarily true generally). Taking your arguments

Re: Multirelease effort: Moving to Python 3

- Original Message - > On 23/07/13 03:16 -0400, Bohuslav Kabrda wrote: > > - Original Message - > >> On 19/07/13 02:41 -0400, Bohuslav Kabrda wrote: > >>> - Original Message - > On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 11:24:22AM -0400, Bohuslav Kabrda wrote: > > FAQ: > > Q: Why

Re: Multirelease effort: Moving to Python 3

On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 02:40:56AM -0400, Bohuslav Kabrda wrote: > > The problem is that you're basically saying "my mental model is the right > one", which is not necessarily true for everyone (and not necessarily true > generally). Taking your arguments a bit further, Python 2.6 and 2.7 are > di

Re: Multirelease effort: Moving to Python 3

On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 12:02:04PM -0700, Luya Tshimbalanga wrote: > I am very surprised infrastructure has not planned to gradually move > to python 3 since its release. I understand that due to RHEL, python2 > will remain used, in Fedora it is disappointing very little > initiative were proposed

Re: Multirelease effort: Moving to Python 3

On 23 July 2013 13:02, Luya Tshimbalanga wrote: > On 18/07/13 08:24 AM, Bohuslav Kabrda wrote: > >> Hi all, >> as a new Fedora Python maintainer, I have set myself a goal of moving >> Fedora to Python 3 as a default. This is going to be a multirelease effort >> that is going to affect lots of Fed

Re: Multirelease effort: Moving to Python 3

On 18/07/13 08:24 AM, Bohuslav Kabrda wrote: Hi all, as a new Fedora Python maintainer, I have set myself a goal of moving Fedora to Python 3 as a default. This is going to be a multirelease effort that is going to affect lots of Fedora parts. Since we will need to switch default package manag

Re: Multirelease effort: Moving to Python 3

barking upon to move this forward. -Toshio Begin forwarded message: Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2013 18:34:01 -0400 From: Barry Warsaw To: devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Cc: python-de...@lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: Multirelease effort: Moving to Python 3 Organization: Damn Crazy Followers of t

Re: Multirelease effort: Moving to Python 3

On 23/07/13 03:16 -0400, Bohuslav Kabrda wrote: > - Original Message - >> On 19/07/13 02:41 -0400, Bohuslav Kabrda wrote: >>> - Original Message - On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 11:24:22AM -0400, Bohuslav Kabrda wrote: > FAQ: > Q: Why do we need to switch to Python 3? > A:

Re: Multirelease effort: Moving to Python 3

- Original Message - > On Tue, 2013-07-23 at 02:40 -0400, Bohuslav Kabrda wrote: > > > python2 and python3 are separate languages. There is a lot of > > similarity > > > between the two and with recent enough versions of python2 (2.7) and > > python3 > > > (python3.4) and some external lib

Re: Multirelease effort: Moving to Python 3

- Original Message - > On 19/07/13 02:41 -0400, Bohuslav Kabrda wrote: > > - Original Message - > >> On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 11:24:22AM -0400, Bohuslav Kabrda wrote: > >>> FAQ: > >>> Q: Why do we need to switch to Python 3? > >>> A: Because Python 2 is old, slower, less pythonic, do

Re: Multirelease effort: Moving to Python 3

- Original Message - > I'm okay with this portion of the definition. One note is I would be > hesitant > about the timing of python3 being the only python that is installed into the > minimal buildroot. This should probably happen in rawhide right after > a branching. > To be more specif

Re: Multirelease effort: Moving to Python 3

On Tue, 2013-07-23 at 02:40 -0400, Bohuslav Kabrda wrote: > > python2 and python3 are separate languages. There is a lot of > similarity > > between the two and with recent enough versions of python2 (2.7) and > python3 > > (python3.4) and some external libraries (python-six) and by sticking > to

Re: Multirelease effort: Moving to Python 3

- Original Message - > On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 11:24:22AM -0400, Bohuslav Kabrda wrote: > > 3) Making all livecd packages depend on Python 3 by default (and > > eventually getting rid of Python 2 from livecd) - this will also require > > switching from Yum to DNF as a default, that is suppo

Re: Multirelease effort: Moving to Python 3

- Original Message - > On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 08:20:02AM +0200, Marcela Mašláňová wrote: > > On 07/19/2013 05:44 AM, Toshio Kuratomi wrote: > > > > > >On Jul 18, 2013 5:42 PM, "Michael Catanzaro" > >> wrote: > > > > > > > > On Thu, 2013-07-18 at 09:53 -070

Re: Multirelease effort: Moving to Python 3

On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 05:15:50PM +1000, Nick Coghlan wrote: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA1 > > On 07/22/2013 03:25 PM, Toshio Kuratomi wrote: > > > If python3 could just finally fix outputting text with > > surrogateescaped bytes then it would finally clean up the last > > po

Re: Multirelease effort: Moving to Python 3

On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:17 AM, Daniel P. Berrange wrote: > Far better to encourage people to explicitly use /usr/bin/python2 and > /usr/bin/python3 explicitly and discourage any use of plain /usr/bin/python, > but definitely not change the semantics of the latter. Right, treating the existence

Re: Multirelease effort: Moving to Python 3

On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:27 AM, Daniel P. Berrange wrote: > On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 11:24:22AM -0400, Bohuslav Kabrda wrote: >> Hi all, >> as a new Fedora Python maintainer, I have set myself a goal of moving Fedora >> to Python 3 as a default. This is going to be a multirelease effort that is

Re: Multirelease effort: Moving to Python 3

On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 03:21:12PM -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote: > Daniel P. Berrange (berra...@redhat.com) said: > > I don't think we're anywhere near the point in time where such an > > approach is worth the pain it will inflict on people. As above, > > I'm pretty sceptical that maintainence of

Re: Multirelease effort: Moving to Python 3

On 19/07/13 02:41 -0400, Bohuslav Kabrda wrote: > - Original Message - >> On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 11:24:22AM -0400, Bohuslav Kabrda wrote: >>> FAQ: >>> Q: Why do we need to switch to Python 3? >>> A: Because Python 2 is old, slower, less pythonic, doesn't get any more >>> functionality and

Re: Re: Multirelease effort: Moving to Python 3

On Saturday 20 July 2013 17:04:47 Nicolas Mailhot wrote: > How exactly is it different from when gcc grew standard C++ behaviour and > most C++ apps broke right and left? > > http://gcc.gnu.org/gcc-2.96.html The same can be said about C++/11 that clearly looks (at least to me) as a new and bette

Re: Multirelease effort: Moving to Python 3

Le Ven 19 juillet 2013 22:11, Toshio Kuratomi a écrit : > Python3 is not an upgrade to Python2. > Python3 is a new language. It is compatible in many ways. If you can > target recent enough versions (at least python-2.6 but python2.7 is better > and python-3.3) you can set out to purposefully c

Re: Multirelease effort: Moving to Python 3

On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 05:30:36PM -0400, Matthew Miller wrote: > On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 01:45:41PM -0700, Toshio Kuratomi wrote: > > * python-cheetah -- Development slowed way down after they made their last > > release in 2010 and announced that the next release cheetah-3.0 would > > include

Re: Multirelease effort: Moving to Python 3

On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 10:11 PM, Toshio Kuratomi wrote: > I'm not sure if this is a good idea (or in what time frame it may be a good > idea. It's definitely too early now and likely too early for F22) but -- if > you want something explicit, we could replace /usr/bin/python with something > th

Re: Multirelease effort: Moving to Python 3

On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 01:45:41PM -0700, Toshio Kuratomi wrote: > * python-cheetah -- Development slowed way down after they made their last > release in 2010 and announced that the next release cheetah-3.0 would > include python3 support. Probably need to contact upstream about this and >

Re: Multirelease effort: Moving to Python 3

On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:58:35AM -0400, john.flor...@dart.biz wrote: > > From: tm...@redhat.com > > > > On Fri, 2013-07-19 at 11:24 -0400, john.flor...@dart.biz wrote: > > > > > > > > > Excellent point! If I were caught unaware, I'd much rather have to fix up > > > a bunch shebang lines and lear

Re: Multirelease effort: Moving to Python 3

On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 03:29:57PM -0400, Matthew Miller wrote: > On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 11:24:22AM -0400, Bohuslav Kabrda wrote: > > 3) Making all livecd packages depend on Python 3 by default (and > > eventually getting rid of Python 2 from livecd) - this will also require > > switching from Yum

Re: Multirelease effort: Moving to Python 3

On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 02:41:23AM -0400, Bohuslav Kabrda wrote: > - Original Message - > > On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 11:24:22AM -0400, Bohuslav Kabrda wrote: > > > Hi all, > > > as a new Fedora Python maintainer, I have set myself a goal of moving > > > Fedora to Python 3 as a default. > >

Re: Multirelease effort: Moving to Python 3

On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 11:24:22AM -0400, Bohuslav Kabrda wrote: > 3) Making all livecd packages depend on Python 3 by default (and > eventually getting rid of Python 2 from livecd) - this will also require > switching from Yum to DNF as a default, that is supposed to support Python I have a conce

Re: Multirelease effort: Moving to Python 3

Daniel P. Berrange (berra...@redhat.com) said: > I don't think we're anywhere near the point in time where such an > approach is worth the pain it will inflict on people. As above, > I'm pretty sceptical that maintainence of Python2 is actually going > to stop in 2015, as I think there are too man

Re: Multirelease effort: Moving to Python 3

On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 12:53:20PM -0400, Colin Walters wrote: > On Fri, 2013-07-19 at 10:17 +0100, Daniel P. Berrange wrote: > > > Far better to encourage people to explicitly use /usr/bin/python2 and > > /usr/bin/python3 explicitly and discourage any use of plain /usr/bin/python > > Note the GN

Re: Multirelease effort: Moving to Python 3

On Fri, 2013-07-19 at 10:17 +0100, Daniel P. Berrange wrote: > Far better to encourage people to explicitly use /usr/bin/python2 and > /usr/bin/python3 explicitly and discourage any use of plain /usr/bin/python Note the GNOME discussion here: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/20

Re: Multirelease effort: Moving to Python 3

On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 08:20:02AM +0200, Marcela Mašláňová wrote: > On 07/19/2013 05:44 AM, Toshio Kuratomi wrote: > > > >On Jul 18, 2013 5:42 PM, "Michael Catanzaro" >> wrote: > > > > > > On Thu, 2013-07-18 at 09:53 -0700, Toshio Kuratomi wrote: > > > > /usr/bin/

Re: Multirelease effort: Moving to Python 3

Le Ven 19 juillet 2013 17:30, Daniel P. Berrange a écrit : > On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 05:16:03PM +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote: >> >> Le Ven 19 juillet 2013 17:04, Tomas Mraz a écrit : >> > On Fri, 2013-07-19 at 10:17 +0100, Daniel P. Berrange wrote: >> >> >> So while I encourage a Fedora effort to

Re: Multirelease effort: Moving to Python 3

> From: tm...@redhat.com > > On Fri, 2013-07-19 at 11:24 -0400, john.flor...@dart.biz wrote: > > > From: nicolas.mail...@laposte.net > > > > > > > > > Le Ven 19 juillet 2013 17:04, Tomas Mraz a écrit : > > > > On Fri, 2013-07-19 at 10:17 +0100, Daniel P. Berrange wrote: > > > > > > >> So while

Re: Multirelease effort: Moving to Python 3

On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 10:17:51AM +0100, Daniel P. Berrange wrote: > > Far better to encourage people to explicitly use /usr/bin/python2 and > /usr/bin/python3 explicitly and discourage any use of plain /usr/bin/python, > but definitely not change the semantics of the latter. > +1*10^6 > > Upst

Re: Multirelease effort: Moving to Python 3

On Fri, 2013-07-19 at 11:24 -0400, john.flor...@dart.biz wrote: > > From: nicolas.mail...@laposte.net > > > > > > Le Ven 19 juillet 2013 17:04, Tomas Mraz a écrit : > > > On Fri, 2013-07-19 at 10:17 +0100, Daniel P. Berrange wrote: > > > > >> So while I encourage a Fedora effort to get onto Pyt

Re: Multirelease effort: Moving to Python 3

On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 05:16:03PM +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote: > > Le Ven 19 juillet 2013 17:04, Tomas Mraz a écrit : > > On Fri, 2013-07-19 at 10:17 +0100, Daniel P. Berrange wrote: > > >> So while I encourage a Fedora effort to get onto Python3 by default, > >> well before 2015, I don't think

Re: Multirelease effort: Moving to Python 3

> From: nicolas.mail...@laposte.net > > > Le Ven 19 juillet 2013 17:04, Tomas Mraz a écrit : > > On Fri, 2013-07-19 at 10:17 +0100, Daniel P. Berrange wrote: > > >> So while I encourage a Fedora effort to get onto Python3 by default, > >> well before 2015, I don't think we should assume that Pyt

Re: Multirelease effort: Moving to Python 3

On Fri, 2013-07-19 at 10:17 +0100, Daniel P. Berrange wrote: > On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 08:20:02AM +0200, Marcela Mašláňová wrote: > > On 07/19/2013 05:44 AM, Toshio Kuratomi wrote: > > > > > >On Jul 18, 2013 5:42 PM, "Michael Catanzaro" > >> wrote: > > > > > > > >

Re: Multirelease effort: Moving to Python 3

Le Ven 19 juillet 2013 17:04, Tomas Mraz a écrit : > On Fri, 2013-07-19 at 10:17 +0100, Daniel P. Berrange wrote: >> So while I encourage a Fedora effort to get onto Python3 by default, >> well before 2015, I don't think we should assume that Python2 support >> is definitely going to stop in 2015

Re: Multirelease effort: Moving to Python 3

> From: berra...@redhat.com > > Far better to encourage people to explicitly use /usr/bin/python2 and > /usr/bin/python3 explicitly and discourage any use of plain /usr/bin/python, > but definitely not change the semantics of the latter. I think this is by far the best thing to do. After all "im

Re: Multirelease effort: Moving to Python 3

On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 11:24:22AM -0400, Bohuslav Kabrda wrote: > Hi all, > as a new Fedora Python maintainer, I have set myself a goal of moving Fedora > to Python 3 as a default. This is going to be a multirelease effort that is > going to affect lots of Fedora parts. Since we will need to swi

Re: Multirelease effort: Moving to Python 3

On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 08:20:02AM +0200, Marcela Mašláňová wrote: > On 07/19/2013 05:44 AM, Toshio Kuratomi wrote: > > > >On Jul 18, 2013 5:42 PM, "Michael Catanzaro" >> wrote: > > > > > > On Thu, 2013-07-18 at 09:53 -0700, Toshio Kuratomi wrote: > > > > /usr/bin/

Re: Multirelease effort: Moving to Python 3

On 07/18/2013 06:53 PM, Toshio Kuratomi wrote: /usr/bin/python should refer to python2 -- http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0394/ I'd be -1 to changing this Quoting from this PEP: python should refer to the same target as python2 but may refer to python3 on some bleeding edge distribut

Re: Multirelease effort: Moving to Python 3

On 19. 7. 2013 at 02:41:23, Bohuslav Kabrda wrote: ... snip ... > > +1 -- unfortunately, this probably depends on DNF So we may need to > > push DNF in F22 and anaconda compatible with python3 in F23. > > DNF is a continuous effort. I believe that DNF will provide it's Python 3 > bindings soo

Re: Multirelease effort: Moving to Python 3

- Original Message - > On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 11:24:22AM -0400, Bohuslav Kabrda wrote: > > Hi all, > > as a new Fedora Python maintainer, I have set myself a goal of moving > > Fedora to Python 3 as a default. > > I'm not sure we want to make python3 default depending on what your > defin

Re: Multirelease effort: Moving to Python 3

On 07/19/2013 05:44 AM, Toshio Kuratomi wrote: On Jul 18, 2013 5:42 PM, "Michael Catanzaro" mailto:mike.catanz...@gmail.com>> wrote: > > On Thu, 2013-07-18 at 09:53 -0700, Toshio Kuratomi wrote: > > /usr/bin/python should refer to python2 -- > > http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0394/ I'd

Re: Multirelease effort: Moving to Python 3

On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 11:24:22AM -0400, Bohuslav Kabrda wrote: > > From packaging point of view, this will probably require: > 1) Renaming python package to python2 > 2) Renaming python3 package to python > 3) Switching the %{?with_python3} conditionals in specfiles to > %{?with_python2} (we wi

Re: Multirelease effort: Moving to Python 3

On Jul 18, 2013 5:42 PM, "Michael Catanzaro" wrote: > > On Thu, 2013-07-18 at 09:53 -0700, Toshio Kuratomi wrote: > > /usr/bin/python should refer to python2 -- > > http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0394/ I'd be -1 to changing this > But when python2 is no longer installed by default, surely

Re: Multirelease effort: Moving to Python 3

On Thu, 2013-07-18 at 09:53 -0700, Toshio Kuratomi wrote: > /usr/bin/python should refer to python2 -- > http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0394/ I'd be -1 to changing this But when python2 is no longer installed by default, surely you want to get a python prompt when you type 'python'? sign

Re: Multirelease effort: Moving to Python 3

- Original Message - > On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 11:24:22AM -0400, Bohuslav Kabrda wrote: > > Hi all, > > as a new Fedora Python maintainer, I have set myself a goal of > > moving Fedora to Python 3 as a default. > That's a worthy goal! > > > From packaging point of view, this will probably

Re: Multirelease effort: Moving to Python 3

On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 11:24:22AM -0400, Bohuslav Kabrda wrote: > Hi all, > as a new Fedora Python maintainer, I have set myself a goal of moving > Fedora to Python 3 as a default. I'm not sure we want to make python3 default depending on what your definition of default is. /usr/bin/python shoul

Re: Multirelease effort: Moving to Python 3

On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 11:24:22AM -0400, Bohuslav Kabrda wrote: > Hi all, > as a new Fedora Python maintainer, I have set myself a goal of > moving Fedora to Python 3 as a default. That's a worthy goal! > From packaging point of view, this will probably require: > 1) Renaming python package to py

Multirelease effort: Moving to Python 3

Hi all, as a new Fedora Python maintainer, I have set myself a goal of moving Fedora to Python 3 as a default. This is going to be a multirelease effort that is going to affect lots of Fedora parts. Since we will need to switch default package manager from Yum to DNF (which is supposed to work w