Re: Orphaned package: system-config-display
On Mon, 2010-08-30 at 22:13 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: (Is it actually impossible for the vesa driver to work after KMS has kicked in, btw, or is it just something that doesn't work at present?) Right now, it may work or it may not. Typically the vesa bios assumes it's the only thing that's ever touched the card [1]. Loading a KMS driver usually changes some hardware settings that the bios treats as invariants. So, you could load vesa, and it might appear to work for a while, but it might also not work at all, or anything in between. It might work better if you unloaded the KMS driver and had it program the hardware back to its initial state on unload. But even then you're hoping you reset everything the bios cares about correctly. So to be safe, we just don't let you do that. [1] - Windows XP and earlier only ever use vesa services to set the mode for the initial boot splash. So that's typically _exactly_ as reliable as vesa services ever are: one modeset, probably to 1024x768 or 800x600, iff you've never loaded a native driver, and anything after that is a gamble. - ajax signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Orphaned package: system-config-display
On Sun, 2010-08-29 at 23:02 +0200, François Cami wrote: Also, an RFE: X should back out and use VESA if the auto-detected, or configured, driver fails after 3 attempts instead of attempting to start 30 times and failing 30 times. A desktop notification should be triggered that says Hey! X failed and you're using a basic video driver - please file a bug button to Abrt. Worst case, if vesa fails, it should dump to a text console and notify the user as such. Agreed. Sorry to be late to the fray, but I'm not sure this would work in all cases. If we already have modesetting (nouveau or radeon for instance), and if the relevant DDX fails, vesa isn't going to work either, if I remember correctly... In this case, the best we can do is to notify the user, if the screen is at all usable. Sure, but we could do better to work in some cases, even if we can't fix them all. (Is it actually impossible for the vesa driver to work after KMS has kicked in, btw, or is it just something that doesn't work at present?) -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Orphaned package: system-config-display
On Sun, Aug 29, 2010 at 7:19 AM, Kevin Kofler kevin.kof...@chello.at wrote: Matej Cepl wrote: I believe KDE should have something equivalent ... don't you have a tool for managing multiple screens/heads? It doesn't do systemwide/permanent settings. (But I think the GNOME tool also doesn't implement that at this time.) The point was that it *should* not that it *does* . -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Orphaned package: system-config-display
Kevin Kofler, Sun, 29 Aug 2010 07:19:51 +0200: I believe KDE should have something equivalent ... don't you have a tool for managing multiple screens/heads? It doesn't do systemwide/permanent settings. (But I think the GNOME tool also doesn't implement that at this time.) Oh sorry, no I didn't mean in the mine is bigger than yours sense, and yes it should be lovely if both Gnome and KDE tools got some Make this default button. Matěj -- http://www.ceplovi.cz/matej/, Jabber: mceplatceplovi.cz GPG Finger: 89EF 4BC6 288A BF43 1BAB 25C3 E09F EF25 D964 84AC All parts should go together without forcing. You must remember that the parts you are reassembling were disassembled by you. Therefore, if you can't get them together again, there must be a reason. By all means, do not use a hammer. -- IBM maintenance manual, 1925 -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Orphaned package: system-config-display
On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 8:47 PM, Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com wrote: On Thu, 2010-08-26 at 13:32 -0500, Michael Cronenworth wrote: Kevin Kofler wrote: 3. What if you can't bring up X in the first place? (You can't run gnome- display-properties if you can't get into X. system-config-display --reconfig was a way to fix such problems.) That's an X bug. File a bug. You're being obtuse. Being able to recover from a bug is important, unless we're living in la-la land and assuming we'll never create any more bugs ever again. They don't get fixed instantly. Also, an RFE: X should back out and use VESA if the auto-detected, or configured, driver fails after 3 attempts instead of attempting to start 30 times and failing 30 times. A desktop notification should be triggered that says Hey! X failed and you're using a basic video driver - please file a bug button to Abrt. Worst case, if vesa fails, it should dump to a text console and notify the user as such. Agreed. Sorry to be late to the fray, but I'm not sure this would work in all cases. If we already have modesetting (nouveau or radeon for instance), and if the relevant DDX fails, vesa isn't going to work either, if I remember correctly... In this case, the best we can do is to notify the user, if the screen is at all usable. François -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Orphaned package: system-config-display
Matej Cepl wrote: I believe KDE should have something equivalent ... don't you have a tool for managing multiple screens/heads? It doesn't do systemwide/permanent settings. (But I think the GNOME tool also doesn't implement that at this time.) Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Orphaned package: system-config-display
Kevin Kofler, Thu, 26 Aug 2010 19:59:00 +0200:
1. Not everyone uses GNOME.
I believe KDE should have something equivalent ... don't you have a tool
for managing multiple screens/heads?
3. What if you can't bring up X in the first place?
Somebody suggested Xorg -configure but the main point is that
mv /etc/X11/xorg.conf{,.orig}
should work (somehow) as well, at least on the level that you can run
your DE's graphical tool. If it doesn't, then it has been a legitimate
bug at least since Fedora Core 6. And I am not getting many of these
lately.
Matěj
--
http://www.ceplovi.cz/matej/, Jabber: mceplatceplovi.cz
GPG Finger: 89EF 4BC6 288A BF43 1BAB 25C3 E09F EF25 D964 84AC
I would like to die sleeping, like my father rather than
screaming and helpless, like his passengers.
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Re: Orphaned package: system-config-display
On Thu, 2010-08-26 at 01:43 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: On 08/26/2010 01:22 AM, Adam Jackson wrote: I don't have time for it, and I think it's fundamentally misguided. If someone else feels like owning it, go wild. This will probably also require access to the upstream repo, so, do speak up if you take it so we can sort that out. Assuming noone picks it up, we will have to document this in the release notes. Can you give a brief explanation on why you believe it is misguided for the sake of documentation? Static configuration should be something you can do from the dynamic configuration tool. gnome-display-properties should have a set as default button. - ajax signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Orphaned package: system-config-display
Adam Jackson wrote: Static configuration should be something you can do from the dynamic configuration tool. gnome-display-properties should have a set as default button. Uh… 1. Not everyone uses GNOME. 2. What about systemwide settings? (system-config-display did those.) 3. What if you can't bring up X in the first place? (You can't run gnome- display-properties if you can't get into X. system-config-display --reconfig was a way to fix such problems.) Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Orphaned package: system-config-display
On Thu, 26 Aug 2010 19:59 +0200 Kevin Kofler kevin.kof...@chello.at wrote: Adam Jackson wrote: Static configuration should be something you can do from the dynamic configuration tool. gnome-display-properties should have a set as default button. Uh… 1. Not everyone uses GNOME. Very true. I would expect people who don't like tinkering with xorg.conf files would run a DE that does have a display settings applet though, no? 2. What about systemwide settings? (system-config-display did those.) What system wide settings? 3. What if you can't bring up X in the first place? (You can't run gnome- display-properties if you can't get into X. system-config-display --reconfig was a way to fix such problems.) Xorg -configure will get you a xorg.conf that should be pretty much the same as the one that system-config-display --reconfig got you. If you do see a need for this tool, then feel free to take over development and maintainership of it as Adam asked in the first post in the thread. kevin signature.asc Description: PGP signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Orphaned package: system-config-display
Kevin Fenzi wrote: 2. What about systemwide settings? (system-config-display did those.) What system wide settings? The settings in xorg.conf which apply to all users. Presumably, a make default button would be per user. Or would it be for the systemwide xorg.conf? Personally, I'd find that surprising. Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Orphaned package: system-config-display
On Thu, 2010-08-26 at 10:59 -0400, Adam Jackson wrote: On Thu, 2010-08-26 at 01:43 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: On 08/26/2010 01:22 AM, Adam Jackson wrote: I don't have time for it, and I think it's fundamentally misguided. If someone else feels like owning it, go wild. This will probably also require access to the upstream repo, so, do speak up if you take it so we can sort that out. Assuming noone picks it up, we will have to document this in the release notes. Can you give a brief explanation on why you believe it is misguided for the sake of documentation? Static configuration should be something you can do from the dynamic configuration tool. gnome-display-properties should have a set as default button. g-d-p doesn't run in console mode, so you can't use it for recovery. It also can't really be run non-interactively. g-d-p also can't select an X driver. (just pointing out ways in which g-d-p is not equivalent to s-c-d; we should consider if we need to fix these or declare them deprecated. We should check if there's anywhere else within Fedora that s-c-d is used programmatically, since I removed one - from livecd-tools - only recently.) -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Orphaned package: system-config-display
Kevin Kofler wrote: 3. What if you can't bring up X in the first place? (You can't run gnome- display-properties if you can't get into X. system-config-display --reconfig was a way to fix such problems.) That's an X bug. File a bug. Also, an RFE: X should back out and use VESA if the auto-detected, or configured, driver fails after 3 attempts instead of attempting to start 30 times and failing 30 times. A desktop notification should be triggered that says Hey! X failed and you're using a basic video driver - please file a bug button to Abrt. Worst case, if vesa fails, it should dump to a text console and notify the user as such. These are usability schematics though - X is severely lacking them. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Orphaned package: system-config-display
On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 2:20 PM, Kevin Fenzi wrote: On Thu, 26 Aug 2010 19:59 +0200 Kevin Kofler wrote: Adam Jackson wrote: Static configuration should be something you can do from the dynamic configuration tool. gnome-display-properties should have a set as default button. Uh… 1. Not everyone uses GNOME. Very true. I would expect people who don't like tinkering with xorg.conf files would run a DE that does have a display settings applet though, no? I don't think so. I doubt that this would be a criterion people use to pick a DE (desktop environment) at all. Folks that I met care about DE either working out of the box with little to no configuration, or the possibility to configure every single widget they see on screen. If an application doesn't exist on the toolkit their DE is written on, they use the other toolkit's application (like using Kile on Gnome). This is not related to choosing a DE. Orcan -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Orphaned package: system-config-display
On Thu, 2010-08-26 at 13:32 -0500, Michael Cronenworth wrote: Kevin Kofler wrote: 3. What if you can't bring up X in the first place? (You can't run gnome- display-properties if you can't get into X. system-config-display --reconfig was a way to fix such problems.) That's an X bug. File a bug. You're being obtuse. Being able to recover from a bug is important, unless we're living in la-la land and assuming we'll never create any more bugs ever again. They don't get fixed instantly. Also, an RFE: X should back out and use VESA if the auto-detected, or configured, driver fails after 3 attempts instead of attempting to start 30 times and failing 30 times. A desktop notification should be triggered that says Hey! X failed and you're using a basic video driver - please file a bug button to Abrt. Worst case, if vesa fails, it should dump to a text console and notify the user as such. Agreed. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Orphaned package: system-config-display
On Thu, 2010-08-26 at 20:27 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote: Kevin Fenzi wrote: 2. What about systemwide settings? (system-config-display did those.) What system wide settings? The settings in xorg.conf which apply to all users. Presumably, a make default button would be per user. Or would it be for the systemwide xorg.conf? Personally, I'd find that surprising. No, the 'make default' button would apply system-wide. Settings you change in gnome-display-properties already instantly become the default for your user upon exit. 'make default' would prompt you for root authentication then make the changes systemwide (presumably by dropping a file in /etc/X11/xorg.conf.d). -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Orphaned package: system-config-display
Michael Cronenworth wrote: Also, an RFE: X should back out and use VESA if the auto-detected, or configured, driver fails after 3 attempts instead of attempting to start 30 times and failing 30 times. A desktop notification should be triggered that says Hey! X failed and you're using a basic video driver - please file a bug button to Abrt. Worst case, if vesa fails, it should dump to a text console and notify the user as such. Ubuntu has something like this, they call it bulletproof X. Maybe it's worth having a look at their implementation. Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Orphaned package: system-config-display
Michael Cronenworth wrote: Kevin Kofler wrote: 3. What if you can't bring up X in the first place? That's an X bug. File a bug. I wonder how usable Bugzilla is in Lynx with 80×25 characters. Björn Persson signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Orphaned package: system-config-display
On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 09:20:23PM +0200, Björn Persson wrote: Michael Cronenworth wrote: Kevin Kofler wrote: 3. What if you can't bring up X in the first place? That's an X bug. File a bug. I wonder how usable Bugzilla is in Lynx with 80×25 characters. Works absolutely fine with links. -- Matthew Garrett | mj...@srcf.ucam.org -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Orphaned package: system-config-display
On Thu, 2010-08-26 at 19:59 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote: Adam Jackson wrote: Static configuration should be something you can do from the dynamic configuration tool. gnome-display-properties should have a set as default button. Uh… 1. Not everyone uses GNOME. Demonstrably true, but I don't see how it's relevant. 2. What about systemwide settings? (system-config-display did those.) That's what static configuration means. 3. What if you can't bring up X in the first place? (You can't run gnome- display-properties if you can't get into X. system-config-display --reconfig was a way to fix such problems.) That sometimes worked and mostly didn't. Seems like a better use of time would be in making X not fail to launch in the first place. Sounds like you enjoy working on bandaids though! Perhaps you'd like to take over s-c-d maintainership? - ajax signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Orphaned package: system-config-display
On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 3:49 PM, Adam Jackson a...@redhat.com wrote: On Thu, 2010-08-26 at 19:59 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote: Adam Jackson wrote: Static configuration should be something you can do from the dynamic configuration tool. gnome-display-properties should have a set as default button. Uh… 1. Not everyone uses GNOME. Demonstrably true, but I don't see how it's relevant. You suggested `gnome-display-properties`, which is a gnome tool with gnome package dependencies. -- Fedora 13 (www.pembo13.com) -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Orphaned package: system-config-display
On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 03:59:06PM -0400, Arthur Pemberton wrote: On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 3:49 PM, Adam Jackson a...@redhat.com wrote: On Thu, 2010-08-26 at 19:59 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote: 1. Not everyone uses GNOME. Demonstrably true, but I don't see how it's relevant. You suggested `gnome-display-properties`, which is a gnome tool with gnome package dependencies. system-config-display depends on gtk, so it's all a matter of degree. -- Matthew Garrett | mj...@srcf.ucam.org -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Orphaned package: system-config-display
On Thu, 2010-08-26 at 15:59 -0400, Arthur Pemberton wrote: On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 3:49 PM, Adam Jackson a...@redhat.com wrote: On Thu, 2010-08-26 at 19:59 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote: Adam Jackson wrote: Static configuration should be something you can do from the dynamic configuration tool. gnome-display-properties should have a set as default button. Uh… 1. Not everyone uses GNOME. Demonstrably true, but I don't see how it's relevant. You suggested `gnome-display-properties`, which is a gnome tool with gnome package dependencies. I can respond to this on at least two levels. I guess I'll do both. (Throughout, I'm using you in the second person, and am not referring to Arthur or anyone else in particular.) So on the one level, you can feel free to read gnome-display-properties there as a placeholder for whatever the equivalent tool is in your DE of choice. lxrandr or krandrtray or whatever. I mean, that's the tool that one uses to configure display settings memory within the session, so it makes sense to serialize from that - from the state of okay I got it the way I want it - to xorg.conf. But on the other level, the implication is that Fedora as a project is somehow compelled to provide generic, desktop-agnostic ways of accomplishing this kind of task. Which is a futile endeavor, philosophically, since s-c-d involved pulling in all of pygtk to begin with, and if you've got a toolkit phobia up front then I don't really see why gtk would be acceptable but libgnome-desktop wouldn't. And moreover it's inevitably wasted effort since every DE of any worth _will_ eventually have a competent display config tool. Now maybe you disagree with that second point. Maybe you _do_ think Fedora has that obligation. Great! By all means, please pick up s-c-d and run with it. I'm just saying, I'm done with it, and I think it's a bad solution regardless of which DE you're using. - ajax signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Orphaned package: system-config-display
On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 4:11 PM, Matthew Garrett mj...@srcf.ucam.org wrote: On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 03:59:06PM -0400, Arthur Pemberton wrote: On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 3:49 PM, Adam Jackson a...@redhat.com wrote: On Thu, 2010-08-26 at 19:59 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote: 1. Not everyone uses GNOME. Demonstrably true, but I don't see how it's relevant. You suggested `gnome-display-properties`, which is a gnome tool with gnome package dependencies. system-config-display depends on gtk, so it's all a matter of degree. No, I would never mention Gtk as a dep. Installing: control-center Installing for dependencies: at-spi gnome-menus gnome-panel-libs gnome-settings-daemon libgail-gnome libgnomekb -- Fedora 13 (www.pembo13.com) -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Orphaned package: system-config-display
On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 05:28:31PM -0400, Arthur Pemberton wrote: On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 4:11 PM, Matthew Garrett mj...@srcf.ucam.org wrote: system-config-display depends on gtk, so it's all a matter of degree. No, I would never mention Gtk as a dep. So, like I said, it's a matter of degree. This is all just software, right? -- Matthew Garrett | mj...@srcf.ucam.org -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Orphaned package: system-config-display
I don't have time for it, and I think it's fundamentally misguided. If someone else feels like owning it, go wild. This will probably also require access to the upstream repo, so, do speak up if you take it so we can sort that out. - ajax signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Orphaned package: system-config-display
On 08/26/2010 01:22 AM, Adam Jackson wrote: I don't have time for it, and I think it's fundamentally misguided. If someone else feels like owning it, go wild. This will probably also require access to the upstream repo, so, do speak up if you take it so we can sort that out. Assuming noone picks it up, we will have to document this in the release notes. Can you give a brief explanation on why you believe it is misguided for the sake of documentation? Rahul -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
