Re: Package wishlist site?
Thank you for the feedback. It all makes sense, and I agree with your points, so I won't put any more effort into this idea. I am also glad, that this discussion happened and the idea won't be itching my brain anymore. Jakub On Sun, Dec 26, 2021 at 7:31 AM Dan Čermák wrote: > > Hi Jakube, > > Jakub Kadlčík writes: > > > Hello, > > > > TL;DR What about a place where people could ask for something to be > > packaged in Fedora? > > As others already commented: I don't think that this is a good > idea. > > Packaging a program for others where you have no real personal > interest/benefit/buy-in is in my experience not sustainable in the long > haul, besides nearly no one doing it (probably for that reason). I would > actually even say that having such a list is harmful to the project as > it would suggest that someone will eventually package the app, thereby > more or less guaranteeing disappointment. > > > Cheers, > > Dan > ___ > devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org > To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org > Fedora Code of Conduct: > https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ > List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines > List Archives: > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org > Do not reply to spam on the list, report it: > https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam on the list, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure
Re: Package wishlist site?
Hi Jakube, Jakub Kadlčík writes: > Hello, > > TL;DR What about a place where people could ask for something to be > packaged in Fedora? As others already commented: I don't think that this is a good idea. Packaging a program for others where you have no real personal interest/benefit/buy-in is in my experience not sustainable in the long haul, besides nearly no one doing it (probably for that reason). I would actually even say that having such a list is harmful to the project as it would suggest that someone will eventually package the app, thereby more or less guaranteeing disappointment. Cheers, Dan ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam on the list, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure
Re: Package wishlist site?
On Thu, Dec 23, 2021 at 10:41 AM Matthew Miller wrote: > > 3. I want to become a Fedora packager but I don't work on an upstream > >project that is not already in the Fedora repositories. > > 4. I am bored and feeling altruistic > > Yeah, I'd love to try to encourage these things. So _maybe_ the idea is > worth trying. The problem with package wishlists is that ... > Either way, though, if it's just a place where suggestions go to die, it's > probably better to not have at all. ... this is generally what they are. The reason is that the size of the set of people in category 4 is approximately zero. Real-life motivations to package software, in my experience, fall into these categories: 5. I use or want to use application X, and want it to be available from Fedora. 6. I use or want to use application X and package Y is required at application X build-time or run-time. 7. My employer pays me to keep package X in working order. If somebody is motivated to add an item to a wishlist, that person is essentially claiming membership in category 5 or 6. The hangup then, presumably, is that this person is lacking one or more of time, knowledge, or motivation to actually package the software. If it is knowledge, then what we really want is a "please teach me how to package software X" list. We might be able to do something about *that*. Lack of time or motivation is, of course, beyond our ability to help. -- Jerry James http://www.jamezone.org/ ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam on the list, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure
Re: Package wishlist site?
On Thu, Dec 23, 2021 at 12:47:01AM +0100, Jakub Kadlčík wrote: > I haven't seen almost any distribution having a package wishlist so it > is either a bad idea (and doesn't have any real value) or everybody > else missed a good opportunity. Or possibly they (maybe even Fedora) > have it, but it is not advertised well. > > The use-cases, I imagine: > > 1. I am a non-technical Fedora user without the ability to learn RPM >packaging, and I would like to have some software in the Fedora >repositories. Generally, putting the package on a wishlist is then an exercise in disappointment, because > 2. I want to learn RPM packaging and I don't want to package >hello.spec for the hundredth time ... the things that people tend to add to these lists are often not great starter packages. > 3. I want to become a Fedora packager but I don't work on an upstream >project that is not already in the Fedora repositories. > 4. I am bored and feeling altruistic Yeah, I'd love to try to encourage these things. So _maybe_ the idea is worth trying. > Implementation options: [...] As someone pointed out, we do have a wiki page, but that's not very successful. Of the things you suggest, I think a pagure or gitlab tracker is probably the most viable. Another option would be to set up a category on Fedora Discussion -- see https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/considering-a-general-reorganization-of-this-site/34174/53?u=mattdm ... this would probaly go in the "Specific Workflows" section. We could have a template for the category and enable voting (with, of course, a clear notice that voting doesn't mean anything but 'there's a lot of user interest'). Either way, though, if it's just a place where suggestions go to die, it's probably better to not have at all. -- Matthew Miller Fedora Project Leader ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam on the list, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure
Re: Package wishlist site?
There used to be Wishlist on Ruby SIG page, but I have remove it [1] for several reasons: 1) It was not maintained, only occasionally somebody added something 2) Nobody really looked at it. And also, one thing is to add package into Fedora, but maintain it long term is completely different issue. BTW nobody ever complained that I have removed the wish list and nobody bothered to reintroduce it. Vít [1] https://fedoraproject.org/w/index.php?title=SIGs/Ruby=543751=543750 Dne 23. 12. 21 v 0:47 Jakub Kadlčík napsal(a): Hello, TL;DR What about a place where people could ask for something to be packaged in Fedora? I haven't seen almost any distribution having a package wishlist so it is either a bad idea (and doesn't have any real value) or everybody else missed a good opportunity. Or possibly they (maybe even Fedora) have it, but it is not advertised well. The use-cases, I imagine: 1. I am a non-technical Fedora user without the ability to learn RPM packaging, and I would like to have some software in the Fedora repositories. 2. I want to learn RPM packaging and I don't want to package hello.spec for the hundredth time 3. I want to become a Fedora packager but I don't work on an upstream project that is not already in the Fedora repositories. 4. I am bored and feeling altruistic Implementation options: 1. A standalone website - Sounds like a **lot** of work. We would need to submit and list the requests, subscribe with email, allow marking something as blocked by something else, etc. 2. Since the thing, I am describing is basically an issue tracker, we could create a project on Pagure and have just issues in it (similar to what https://pagure.io/fedora-magazine-newsroom has) or on GitHub (similar to what rpmfusion has https://github.com/rpmfusion-infra/fedy/issues/new/choose). I personally prefer this option because we could have this up-and-running in minutes, see if people find it useful and scratch it otherwise. 3. Bugzilla - More complicated setup than a project on Pagure/GitHub, more complex UI discouraging newbies and non-technical people to use it (which is a problem, since they are the target audience). On the other hand, we could easily link wished packages from package review tickets. 4. Wiki - I don't have many experiences with wikis but I never enjoyed working with them. IMHO they are a boring middle ground between static page generators and websites with a database, always being worse than those two. But if you think a wiki would be a good fit, I am fine with that. 5. Basically 2. or 3. but with a website, that presents the issues from Pagure or Bugzilla in a more friendly format. I can see some benefits to this, and I would certainly enjoy implementing it, but I see this as a long-term thing, only if the whole package wishlist idea works. Other distributions: - GNU/Guix - https://libreplanet.org/wiki/Group:Guix/Wishlist - That wiki actually looks good - OpenSuse - https://tr.opensuse.org/Paket_%C4%B0stek_Listesi_(Wishlist) - RPM Fusion - https://rpmfusion.org/Wishlist What do you think? Do we have anything like this? Should we try it? What option should we go with? Jakub ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam on the list, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure OpenPGP_signature Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam on the list, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure
Re: Package wishlist site?
There's been a (short) discussion about having a wishlist last month: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org/thread/K3O5WRMT75UCWMRE6PCMBHRGMHMIBM63/ A.FI. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam on the list, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure
Re: Package wishlist site?
On Wed, Dec 22, 2021 at 11:56 PM Jakub Kadlčík wrote: > TL;DR What about a place where people could ask for something to be > packaged in Fedora? There is https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Package_maintainers_wishlist ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam on the list, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure
Package wishlist site?
Hello, TL;DR What about a place where people could ask for something to be packaged in Fedora? I haven't seen almost any distribution having a package wishlist so it is either a bad idea (and doesn't have any real value) or everybody else missed a good opportunity. Or possibly they (maybe even Fedora) have it, but it is not advertised well. The use-cases, I imagine: 1. I am a non-technical Fedora user without the ability to learn RPM packaging, and I would like to have some software in the Fedora repositories. 2. I want to learn RPM packaging and I don't want to package hello.spec for the hundredth time 3. I want to become a Fedora packager but I don't work on an upstream project that is not already in the Fedora repositories. 4. I am bored and feeling altruistic Implementation options: 1. A standalone website - Sounds like a **lot** of work. We would need to submit and list the requests, subscribe with email, allow marking something as blocked by something else, etc. 2. Since the thing, I am describing is basically an issue tracker, we could create a project on Pagure and have just issues in it (similar to what https://pagure.io/fedora-magazine-newsroom has) or on GitHub (similar to what rpmfusion has https://github.com/rpmfusion-infra/fedy/issues/new/choose). I personally prefer this option because we could have this up-and-running in minutes, see if people find it useful and scratch it otherwise. 3. Bugzilla - More complicated setup than a project on Pagure/GitHub, more complex UI discouraging newbies and non-technical people to use it (which is a problem, since they are the target audience). On the other hand, we could easily link wished packages from package review tickets. 4. Wiki - I don't have many experiences with wikis but I never enjoyed working with them. IMHO they are a boring middle ground between static page generators and websites with a database, always being worse than those two. But if you think a wiki would be a good fit, I am fine with that. 5. Basically 2. or 3. but with a website, that presents the issues from Pagure or Bugzilla in a more friendly format. I can see some benefits to this, and I would certainly enjoy implementing it, but I see this as a long-term thing, only if the whole package wishlist idea works. Other distributions: - GNU/Guix - https://libreplanet.org/wiki/Group:Guix/Wishlist - That wiki actually looks good - OpenSuse - https://tr.opensuse.org/Paket_%C4%B0stek_Listesi_(Wishlist) - RPM Fusion - https://rpmfusion.org/Wishlist What do you think? Do we have anything like this? Should we try it? What option should we go with? Jakub ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam on the list, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure
