Re: Rolling release model philosophy (was Re: Anaconda is totally trashing the F18 schedule (was Re: f18: how to install into a LVM partitions (or RAID)))

2012-11-06 Thread Matěj Cepl
On Mon, 05 Nov 2012 13:53:37 +0100, Ralf Corsepius wrote: That's called CentOS, Nope ... CentOS/RHEL is a different end of extremes. 7 years+ life-time, no API changes, etc. What is lacking is a middle ground between Fedora and CentOS. Something with a life-time of ~2 years, with API

Re: Rolling release model philosophy (was Re: Anaconda is totally trashing the F18 schedule (was Re: f18: how to install into a LVM partitions (or RAID)))

2012-11-05 Thread Jiri Eischmann
mike cloaked píše v Ne 04. 11. 2012 v 21:44 +: On Sun, Nov 4, 2012 at 9:07 PM, Jiri Eischmann jeisc...@redhat.com wrote: This is a very valid argument. I understand this is a devel list, so we should stay on the technical level, but if we

Re: Rolling release model philosophy (was Re: Anaconda is totally trashing the F18 schedule (was Re: f18: how to install into a LVM partitions (or RAID)))

2012-11-05 Thread Mathieu Bridon
On Monday, November 05, 2012 06:56 PM, Jiri Eischmann wrote: mike cloaked píše v Ne 04. 11. 2012 v 21:44 +: On Sun, Nov 4, 2012 at 9:07 PM, Jiri Eischmann jeisc...@redhat.com wrote: This is a very valid argument. I understand this is a devel list, so we should stay on

Re: Rolling release model philosophy (was Re: Anaconda is totally trashing the F18 schedule (was Re: f18: how to install into a LVM partitions (or RAID)))

2012-11-05 Thread Nicu Buculei
On 11/05/2012 01:13 PM, Mathieu Bridon wrote: On Monday, November 05, 2012 06:56 PM, Jiri Eischmann wrote: mike cloaked píše v Ne 04. 11. 2012 v 21:44 +: Does anyone have any reliable statistics about the number of users who feel that release parties and codenames are important to them?

Re: Rolling release model philosophy (was Re: Anaconda is totally trashing the F18 schedule (was Re: f18: how to install into a LVM partitions (or RAID)))

2012-11-05 Thread mike cloaked
On Mon, Nov 5, 2012 at 10:56 AM, Jiri Eischmann eischm...@redhat.comwrote: Release parties and codenames were just examples. It's about the buzz around releases. You can check Google Trends where you find peaks in number of searches for Fedora after every release. Or fp.org monthly stats.

Re: Rolling release model philosophy (was Re: Anaconda is totally trashing the F18 schedule (was Re: f18: how to install into a LVM partitions (or RAID)))

2012-11-05 Thread Ralf Corsepius
On 11/05/2012 01:11 AM, Matěj Cepl wrote: On Fri, 02 Nov 2012 20:55:38 +, Jóhann B. Guðmundsson wrote: and one stable release ( valid for 2 maybe 3 years ) for those in the community that want something they dont constantly having to upgrade to and can deploy on their servers. ( ofcourse to

Re: Rolling release model philosophy (was Re: Anaconda is totally trashing the F18 schedule (was Re: f18: how to install into a LVM partitions (or RAID)))

2012-11-05 Thread Kamil Paral
The entire QA team (and the entire anaconda team, for that matter) is currently spending virtually all its time trying to help bash the new anaconda into something vaguely resembling shape for a fairly arbitrary release deadline, so we can ship something called 'the Fedora 18 stable

Re: Rolling release model philosophy (was Re: Anaconda is totally trashing the F18 schedule (was Re: f18: how to install into a LVM partitions (or RAID)))

2012-11-05 Thread Simo Sorce
On Sun, 2012-11-04 at 19:47 +0200, Alek Paunov wrote: On 04.11.2012 19:25, Simo Sorce wrote: note that this is also our strength in some respect because it allows the system to evolve a lot more quickly, but it also means upgrades are Indeed. simply going to break stuff, and that's

Re: Rolling release model philosophy (was Re: Anaconda is totally trashing the F18 schedule (was Re: f18: how to install into a LVM partitions (or RAID)))

2012-11-05 Thread Bruno Wolff III
On Mon, Nov 05, 2012 at 08:35:53 -0500, Kamil Paral kpa...@redhat.com wrote: My idea would be to have two releases: == Fedora Stable == * A release for general users with low volume of security fixes and important bug fixes. ** Bug fixes would be pushed monthly and QA would be performed on

Re: Rolling release model philosophy (was Re: Anaconda is totally trashing the F18 schedule (was Re: f18: how to install into a LVM partitions (or RAID)))

2012-11-05 Thread Ben Cotton
On Mon, Nov 5, 2012 at 5:56 AM, Jiri Eischmann eischm...@redhat.com wrote: Release parties and codenames were just examples. It's about the buzz around releases. You can check Google Trends where you find peaks in number of searches for Fedora after every release. Or fp.org monthly stats. You

Re: Rolling release model philosophy (was Re: Anaconda is totally trashing the F18 schedule (was Re: f18: how to install into a LVM partitions (or RAID)))

2012-11-05 Thread Nikos Roussos
Tom Lane t...@redhat.com wrote: Simon Lukasik isim...@fedoraproject.org writes: Currently, each Fedora release is kept alive for 13(+/-) months. There were dozens of threads about shortening or prolonging period -- but I am not sure if something like the following has been ever discussed:

Re: Rolling release model philosophy (was Re: Anaconda is totally trashing the F18 schedule (was Re: f18: how to install into a LVM partitions (or RAID)))

2012-11-05 Thread Przemek Klosowski
On 11/02/2012 07:04 PM, Adam Williamson wrote: Sure, like I said in another mail, we've got better at that than before. But as I also said in the same mail, you still have to do a version upgrade every twelve months. That alone is ridiculous for a 'stable' operating system. This is an

Re: Rolling release model philosophy (was Re: Anaconda is totally trashing the F18 schedule (was Re: f18: how to install into a LVM partitions (or RAID)))

2012-11-05 Thread Kamil Paral
* A release for general users with low volume of security fixes and important bug fixes. ** Bug fixes would be pushed monthly and QA would be performed on this monthly batch of updates. Some packages need more than bug fix updates (unless you are taking a very broad view of what a bug is).

Re: Rolling release model philosophy (was Re: Anaconda is totally trashing the F18 schedule (was Re: f18: how to install into a LVM partitions (or RAID)))

2012-11-05 Thread Kamil Paral
This tool is still not going to be able to do magic and there will be config things that still need to be redone. Third party repos will still be an issue. It's a clean installation, I don't think it needs any magic. Also third-party repos are not a problem, we just ignore them and

Re: Rolling release model philosophy (was Re: Anaconda is totally trashing the F18 schedule (was Re: f18: how to install into a LVM partitions (or RAID)))

2012-11-05 Thread Bruno Wolff III
On Mon, Nov 05, 2012 at 13:23:59 -0500, Kamil Paral kpa...@redhat.com wrote: This tool is still not going to be able to do magic and there will be config things that still need to be redone. Third party repos will still be an issue. It's a clean installation, I don't think it needs any

Re: Rolling release model philosophy (was Re: Anaconda is totally trashing the F18 schedule (was Re: f18: how to install into a LVM partitions (or RAID)))

2012-11-05 Thread mike cloaked
On Mon, Nov 5, 2012 at 6:34 PM, Bruno Wolff III br...@wolff.to wrote: It's a clean installation, I don't think it needs any magic. Also third-party repos are not a problem, we just ignore them and they won't influence the new system. People will add them manually again once in 18 months.

Re: Rolling release model philosophy (was Re: Anaconda is totally trashing the F18 schedule (was Re: f18: how to install into a LVM partitions (or RAID)))

2012-11-05 Thread Jóhann B. Guðmundsson
On 11/05/2012 05:28 PM, Przemek Klosowski wrote: On 11/02/2012 07:04 PM, Adam Williamson wrote: Sure, like I said in another mail, we've got better at that than before. But as I also said in the same mail, you still have to do a version upgrade every twelve months. That alone is ridiculous for

Re: Rolling release model philosophy (was Re: Anaconda is totally trashing the F18 schedule (was Re: f18: how to install into a LVM partitions (or RAID)))

2012-11-05 Thread John . Florian
From: Jóhann B. Guðmundsson johan...@gmail.com On 11/05/2012 05:28 PM, Przemek Klosowski wrote: On 11/02/2012 07:04 PM, Adam Williamson wrote: Sure, like I said in another mail, we've got better at that than before. But as I also said in the same mail, you still have to do a version

Re: Rolling release model philosophy (was Re: Anaconda is totally trashing the F18 schedule (was Re: f18: how to install into a LVM partitions (or RAID)))

2012-11-05 Thread Stephen John Smoogen
On 4 November 2012 23:57, drago01 drag...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Nov 4, 2012 at 6:55 PM, Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com wrote: On Sun, 2012-11-04 at 12:18 -0500, Simo Sorce wrote: On Sat, 2012-11-03 at 00:36 +0100, Michał Piotrowski wrote: Hi, 2012/11/3 Adam Williamson

Re: Rolling release model philosophy (was Re: Anaconda is totally trashing the F18 schedule (was Re: f18: how to install into a LVM partitions (or RAID)))

2012-11-05 Thread Alek Paunov
On 05.11.2012 15:57, Simo Sorce wrote: A possibly viable alternative for the ABIs freezing (which we can not ensure anyway) is the C/C++/etc tooling - If we arm upstreams, packagers and 3rd parties with powerful source tools (API migration/checking), just like Google does internally, unsing the

Re: Rolling release model philosophy (was Re: Anaconda is totally trashing the F18 schedule (was Re: f18: how to install into a LVM partitions (or RAID)))

2012-11-04 Thread Michael Scherer
Le samedi 03 novembre 2012 à 09:29 -0700, Adam Williamson a écrit : On Sat, 2012-11-03 at 11:28 +, mike cloaked wrote: Others may wish to compare Fedora with other distributions also - but one thought I had was that in Archlinux there are only two repos to maintain - whilst in Fedora

Re: Rolling release model philosophy (was Re: Anaconda is totally trashing the F18 schedule (was Re: f18: how to install into a LVM partitions (or RAID)))

2012-11-04 Thread Panu Matilainen
On 11/04/2012 12:17 PM, Michael Scherer wrote: Le samedi 03 novembre 2012 à 09:29 -0700, Adam Williamson a écrit : On Sat, 2012-11-03 at 11:28 +, mike cloaked wrote: Others may wish to compare Fedora with other distributions also - but one thought I had was that in Archlinux there are

Re: Rolling release model philosophy (was Re: Anaconda is totally trashing the F18 schedule (was Re: f18: how to install into a LVM partitions (or RAID)))

2012-11-04 Thread Simon Lukasik
On 11/03/2012 12:30 AM, Simo Sorce wrote: On Fri, 2012-11-02 at 16:04 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: * Upgrading every year, with an unreliable upgrade process, is not something you have to do with a proper stable OS On some stable OSs you cannot upgrade *at all*. It is true that some OSs

Re: Rolling release model philosophy (was Re: Anaconda is totally trashing the F18 schedule (was Re: f18: how to install into a LVM partitions (or RAID)))

2012-11-04 Thread Tom Lane
Panu Matilainen pmati...@laiskiainen.org writes: On 11/04/2012 12:17 PM, Michael Scherer wrote: And I am doubting that changing the release model will suddenly make people do QA. Adam's point is that reducing the number of branches requiring QA should permit more thorough QA with the scarce

Re: Rolling release model philosophy (was Re: Anaconda is totally trashing the F18 schedule (was Re: f18: how to install into a LVM partitions (or RAID)))

2012-11-04 Thread Tom Lane
Simon Lukasik isim...@fedoraproject.org writes: Currently, each Fedora release is kept alive for 13(+/-) months. There were dozens of threads about shortening or prolonging period -- but I am not sure if something like the following has been ever discussed: Each N-th Fedora release -- where

Re: Rolling release model philosophy (was Re: Anaconda is totally trashing the F18 schedule (was Re: f18: how to install into a LVM partitions (or RAID)))

2012-11-04 Thread Reindl Harald
Am 04.11.2012 17:05, schrieb Tom Lane: Simon Lukasik isim...@fedoraproject.org writes: Currently, each Fedora release is kept alive for 13(+/-) months. There were dozens of threads about shortening or prolonging period -- but I am not sure if something like the following has been ever

Re: Rolling release model philosophy (was Re: Anaconda is totally trashing the F18 schedule (was Re: f18: how to install into a LVM partitions (or RAID)))

2012-11-04 Thread Simo Sorce
On Sat, 2012-11-03 at 00:36 +0100, Michał Piotrowski wrote: Hi, 2012/11/3 Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com: Note that neither Red Hat nor Microsoft actually support major version upgrades for their operating systems Adam, this is plainly untrue for Microsoft, they always supported

Re: Rolling release model philosophy (was Re: Anaconda is totally trashing the F18 schedule (was Re: f18: how to install into a LVM partitions (or RAID)))

2012-11-04 Thread Simo Sorce
On Sat, 2012-11-03 at 00:44 +0100, drago01 wrote: much lower levels of churn, No they actually have way higher levels of churn ... just think about it ... in fedora we are talking about 6 months worth of chrun not 5+ years. Can't speak for Red Hat but maybe this is one of the reasons why

Re: Rolling release model philosophy (was Re: Anaconda is totally trashing the F18 schedule (was Re: f18: how to install into a LVM partitions (or RAID)))

2012-11-04 Thread Alek Paunov
On 04.11.2012 19:25, Simo Sorce wrote: note that this is also our strength in some respect because it allows the system to evolve a lot more quickly, but it also means upgrades are Indeed. simply going to break stuff, and that's not so great for desktop environments and scare the hell off

Re: Rolling release model philosophy (was Re: Anaconda is totally trashing the F18 schedule (was Re: f18: how to install into a LVM partitions (or RAID)))

2012-11-04 Thread Adam Williamson
On Sun, 2012-11-04 at 12:18 -0500, Simo Sorce wrote: On Sat, 2012-11-03 at 00:36 +0100, Michał Piotrowski wrote: Hi, 2012/11/3 Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com: Note that neither Red Hat nor Microsoft actually support major version upgrades for their operating systems Adam,

Re: Rolling release model philosophy (was Re: Anaconda is totally trashing the F18 schedule (was Re: f18: how to install into a LVM partitions (or RAID)))

2012-11-04 Thread Simon Lukasik
On 11/04/2012 05:05 PM, Tom Lane wrote: Simon Lukasik isim...@fedoraproject.org writes: Currently, each Fedora release is kept alive for 13(+/-) months. There were dozens of threads about shortening or prolonging period -- but I am not sure if something like the following has been ever

Re: Rolling release model philosophy (was Re: Anaconda is totally trashing the F18 schedule (was Re: f18: how to install into a LVM partitions (or RAID)))

2012-11-04 Thread devzero2000
For microsoft perhaps, but Ubuntu, Debian ? Upgrading from a release to the next is trivial, and in general work well. Sure, probably the update to the core system component is more light, no Usrmove, no systemd, or something like this. And preserving, updating the new configuration based on the

Re: Rolling release model philosophy (was Re: Anaconda is totally trashing the F18 schedule (was Re: f18: how to install into a LVM partitions (or RAID)))

2012-11-04 Thread Jiri Eischmann
- Original Message - From: Bruno Wolff III br...@wolff.to To: Kevin Fenzi ke...@scrye.com Cc: devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Sent: Saturday, November 3, 2012 7:37:45 PM Subject: Re: Rolling release model philosophy (was Re: Anaconda is totally trashing the F18 schedule (was Re:

Re: Rolling release model philosophy (was Re: Anaconda is totally trashing the F18 schedule (was Re: f18: how to install into a LVM partitions (or RAID)))

2012-11-04 Thread mike cloaked
On Sun, Nov 4, 2012 at 9:07 PM, Jiri Eischmann jeisc...@redhat.com wrote: This is a very valid argument. I understand this is a devel list, so we should stay on the technical level, but if we discuss such broad changes that affect the whole project, we should also take into account other

Re: Rolling release model philosophy (was Re: Anaconda is totally trashing the F18 schedule (was Re: f18: how to install into a LVM partitions (or RAID)))

2012-11-04 Thread Matěj Cepl
On Fri, 02 Nov 2012 20:55:38 +, Jóhann B. Guðmundsson wrote: and one stable release ( valid for 2 maybe 3 years ) for those in the community that want something they dont constantly having to upgrade to and can deploy on their servers. ( ofcourse to have a stable release we first and

Re: Rolling release model philosophy (was Re: Anaconda is totally trashing the F18 schedule (was Re: f18: how to install into a LVM partitions (or RAID)))

2012-11-04 Thread Matěj Cepl
On Fri, 02 Nov 2012 13:22:21 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: I disagree. It's usable by the kind of people who use Fedora. Who like shiny cutting-edge stuff and don't mind dealing with wonkiness constantly. I wouldn't dream of putting any regular person on a Fedora install, quite frankly. It's

Re: Rolling release model philosophy (was Re: Anaconda is totally trashing the F18 schedule (was Re: f18: how to install into a LVM partitions (or RAID)))

2012-11-04 Thread drago01
On Sun, Nov 4, 2012 at 6:55 PM, Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com wrote: On Sun, 2012-11-04 at 12:18 -0500, Simo Sorce wrote: On Sat, 2012-11-03 at 00:36 +0100, Michał Piotrowski wrote: Hi, 2012/11/3 Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com: Note that neither Red Hat nor Microsoft

Re: Rolling release model philosophy (was Re: Anaconda is totally trashing the F18 schedule (was Re: f18: how to install into a LVM partitions (or RAID)))

2012-11-04 Thread Emmanuel Seyman
* drago01 [05/11/2012 08:00] : That's like selling a car and telling the customer it might not move at all in that case you are on your own sorry. This is par the course for proprietary software (with the added bonus that you can't actually fix it since you don't have the source code).

Re: Rolling release model philosophy (was Re: Anaconda is totally trashing the F18 schedule (was Re: f18: how to install into a LVM partitions (or RAID)))

2012-11-04 Thread drago01
On Mon, Nov 5, 2012 at 8:02 AM, Emmanuel Seyman emman...@seyman.fr wrote: * drago01 [05/11/2012 08:00] : That's like selling a car and telling the customer it might not move at all in that case you are on your own sorry. This is par the course for proprietary software (with the added bonus

Re: Rolling release model philosophy (was Re: Anaconda is totally trashing the F18 schedule (was Re: f18: how to install into a LVM partitions (or RAID)))

2012-11-03 Thread Nikos Roussos
On Fri, 2012-11-02 at 13:22 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: I disagree with that. Fedora releases had some small regression introduced via updates from time but is is *very* usable as a stable operating system. I disagree. It's usable by the kind of people who use Fedora. Who like shiny

Re: Rolling release model philosophy (was Re: Anaconda is totally trashing the F18 schedule (was Re: f18: how to install into a LVM partitions (or RAID)))

2012-11-03 Thread mike cloaked
On Fri, Nov 2, 2012 at 10:31 PM, Kevin Fenzi ke...@scrye.com wrote: On Fri, 02 Nov 2012 15:17:02 -0700 Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com wrote: ..snip... In my experience, in the last few years, Fedora stable releases have become much more stable. My stable boxes here at home I have not

Re: Rolling release model philosophy (was Re: Anaconda is totally trashing the F18 schedule (was Re: f18: how to install into a LVM partitions (or RAID)))

2012-11-03 Thread drago01
On Sat, Nov 3, 2012 at 12:37 PM, Henrique Junior henrique...@gmail.com wrote: It is difficult, for example, to understand why we have to wait until the next release to have LibreOffice 3.6, since this seems an non disruptive update that could bring major improvements in the productivity of

Re: Rolling release model philosophy (was Re: Anaconda is totally trashing the F18 schedule (was Re: f18: how to install into a LVM partitions (or RAID)))

2012-11-03 Thread Bruno Wolff III
On Fri, Nov 02, 2012 at 16:32:00 -0700, Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com wrote: On Sat, 2012-11-03 at 00:18 +0100, drago01 wrote: In a rolling release model, everyone deals with foo-1.0 to foo-2.0, then a week later they deal with bar-1.0 to bar-2.0, then a week later they deal with

Re: Rolling release model philosophy (was Re: Anaconda is totally trashing the F18 schedule (was Re: f18: how to install into a LVM partitions (or RAID)))

2012-11-03 Thread Matthew Miller
On Sat, Nov 03, 2012 at 12:35:08PM +0200, Nikos Roussos wrote: I understand that regular users are not Fedora's main target, but it is a general-purpose operating system in the sense that it can be used by people who want to have a stable working environment with all the latest things from the

Re: Rolling release model philosophy (was Re: Anaconda is totally trashing the F18 schedule (was Re: f18: how to install into a LVM partitions (or RAID)))

2012-11-03 Thread Adam Williamson
On Sat, 2012-11-03 at 10:52 +0100, drago01 wrote: On Sat, Nov 3, 2012 at 12:58 AM, Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com wrote: My position is that the people who use Fedora and the kind of people we really _want_ to use Fedora can cope with it. Maybe the majority can maybe they can't. But

Re: Rolling release model philosophy (was Re: Anaconda is totally trashing the F18 schedule (was Re: f18: how to install into a LVM partitions (or RAID)))

2012-11-03 Thread Adam Williamson
On Sat, 2012-11-03 at 11:28 +, mike cloaked wrote: Others may wish to compare Fedora with other distributions also - but one thought I had was that in Archlinux there are only two repos to maintain - whilst in Fedora it is 5 repos! One might wonder whether there is less effort needed to

Re: Rolling release model philosophy (was Re: Anaconda is totally trashing the F18 schedule (was Re: f18: how to install into a LVM partitions (or RAID)))

2012-11-03 Thread Adam Williamson
On Sat, 2012-11-03 at 09:37 -0200, Henrique Junior wrote: The guys behind openSUSE created a good approach with Tumbleweed. By adding this repo users can opt-in to the (semi)rolling model. Tumbleweed is more like a pool where updated, stable, non disruptive software can be installed and I was

Re: Rolling release model philosophy (was Re: Anaconda is totally trashing the F18 schedule (was Re: f18: how to install into a LVM partitions (or RAID)))

2012-11-03 Thread Reindl Harald
Am 03.11.2012 01:09, schrieb Adam Williamson: On Sat, 2012-11-03 at 01:07 +0100, Reindl Harald wrote: Am 03.11.2012 00:58, schrieb Adam Williamson: Microsoft don't really expect you to upgrade Windows. They expect you to buy a computer with Windows X on it, use it for three years, then throw

Re: Rolling release model philosophy (was Re: Anaconda is totally trashing the F18 schedule (was Re: f18: how to install into a LVM partitions (or RAID)))

2012-11-03 Thread Reindl Harald
Am 03.11.2012 11:35, schrieb Nikos Roussos: In that sense, and from my point of view, if we had to rethink our release model and dedicate time and energy on a new approach, it would make more sense to have an extended support release (providing only security updates after 13 months)

Re: Rolling release model philosophy (was Re: Anaconda is totally trashing the F18 schedule (was Re: f18: how to install into a LVM partitions (or RAID)))

2012-11-03 Thread Kevin Fenzi
On Sat, 03 Nov 2012 09:26:43 -0700 Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com wrote: I don't think rolling release and getting work done are incompatible. As I mentioned, I run Branched permanently on my desktop - so it rolls from 'pre-Alpha' state through to 'stable' state briefly and then back to

Re: Rolling release model philosophy (was Re: Anaconda is totally trashing the F18 schedule (was Re: f18: how to install into a LVM partitions (or RAID)))

2012-11-03 Thread Alek Paunov
On 03.11.2012 18:26, Adam Williamson wrote: On Sat, 2012-11-03 at 10:52 +0100, drago01 wrote: Eh? That's not what I said at all. What I said was that I think in a well-managed rolling release model, users would actually run into trouble only about as often as they already do anyway. I don't

Re: Rolling release model philosophy (was Re: Anaconda is totally trashing the F18 schedule (was Re: f18: how to install into a LVM partitions (or RAID)))

2012-11-03 Thread Alek Paunov
On 03.11.2012 19:17, Alek Paunov wrote: Adam, I think that the current rolling release discussion as many other high interest general ones in the recent months are pointless without some form of explicit definition and statistics of the current (and desired) distinct Fedora user profiles. Just

Re: Rolling release model philosophy (was Re: Anaconda is totally trashing the F18 schedule (was Re: f18: how to install into a LVM partitions (or RAID)))

2012-11-03 Thread Bruno Wolff III
On Sat, Nov 03, 2012 at 11:11:18 -0600, Kevin Fenzi ke...@scrye.com wrote: In any case, I think we do need to look at release cycle changes or at the very least Feature process revamp. And get comments from other than developers. Marketting might have serious concerns about the loss of

Re: Rolling release model philosophy (was Re: Anaconda is totally trashing the F18 schedule (was Re: f18: how to install into a LVM partitions (or RAID)))

2012-11-03 Thread mike cloaked
On Sat, Nov 3, 2012 at 4:29 PM, Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com wrote: On Sat, 2012-11-03 at 11:28 +, mike cloaked wrote: Others may wish to compare Fedora with other distributions also - but one thought I had was that in Archlinux there are only two repos to maintain - whilst in

Re: Rolling release model philosophy (was Re: Anaconda is totally trashing the F18 schedule (was Re: f18: how to install into a LVM partitions (or RAID)))

2012-11-03 Thread Michael Scherer
Le samedi 03 novembre 2012 à 07:46 -0500, Bruno Wolff III a écrit : I'd rather see us do a better job with rawhide so that more people use it and a better job at making upgrades go smoother so that people just trying to get stuff done with Fedora have a better experience. Then the question

Re: Rolling release model philosophy (was Re: Anaconda is totally trashing the F18 schedule (was Re: f18: how to install into a LVM partitions (or RAID)))

2012-11-03 Thread Adam Williamson
On Sun, 2012-11-04 at 00:26 +0100, Michael Scherer wrote: Le samedi 03 novembre 2012 à 07:46 -0500, Bruno Wolff III a écrit : I'd rather see us do a better job with rawhide so that more people use it and a better job at making upgrades go smoother so that people just trying to get

Re: Rolling release model philosophy (was Re: Anaconda is totally trashing the F18 schedule (was Re: f18: how to install into a LVM partitions (or RAID)))

2012-11-03 Thread Nikos Roussos
Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com wrote: On Sat, 2012-11-03 at 09:37 -0200, Henrique Junior wrote: The guys behind openSUSE created a good approach with Tumbleweed. By adding this repo users can opt-in to the (semi)rolling model. Tumbleweed is more like a pool where updated, stable, non

Re: Rolling release model philosophy (was Re: Anaconda is totally trashing the F18 schedule (was Re: f18: how to install into a LVM partitions (or RAID)))

2012-11-03 Thread Adam Williamson
On Sun, 2012-11-04 at 02:12 +0200, Nikos Roussos wrote: Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com wrote: On Sat, 2012-11-03 at 09:37 -0200, Henrique Junior wrote: The guys behind openSUSE created a good approach with Tumbleweed. By adding this repo users can opt-in to the (semi)rolling model.

Re: Rolling release model philosophy (was Re: Anaconda is totally trashing the F18 schedule (was Re: f18: how to install into a LVM partitions (or RAID)))

2012-11-03 Thread Bruno Wolff III
On Sun, Nov 04, 2012 at 00:26:08 +0100, Michael Scherer m...@zarb.org wrote: Le samedi 03 novembre 2012 à 07:46 -0500, Bruno Wolff III a écrit : I do not run it, so I cannot judge, but I think the first step to fix something is to know the exact problems to fix. If the issue is too much

Re: Rolling release model philosophy (was Re: Anaconda is totally trashing the F18 schedule (was Re: f18: how to install into a LVM partitions (or RAID)))

2012-11-03 Thread Renich Bon Ciric
I think we could, just for fun if you like, pursue making a good plan of how the transition would be and what changes should be done. Consider it objectively. What changes would have to be done the OS? What changes in infrastructure? What tools do we need? This could be a good exercise. The

Rolling release model philosophy (was Re: Anaconda is totally trashing the F18 schedule (was Re: f18: how to install into a LVM partitions (or RAID)))

2012-11-02 Thread Adam Williamson
On Fri, 2012-11-02 at 11:55 +0100, Stanislav Ochotnicky wrote: Quoting Michael Cronenworth (2012-11-01 18:33:24) Adam Williamson wrote: I didn't want to throw this grenade into the debate, but now someone else has, I'll just note that I was in favour of this before and I'm still in

Re: Rolling release model philosophy (was Re: Anaconda is totally trashing the F18 schedule (was Re: f18: how to install into a LVM partitions (or RAID)))

2012-11-02 Thread drago01
Well your point basically is we can't/don't ship anything that is stable so we should give up on that. I disagree with that. Fedora releases had some small regression introduced via updates from time but is is *very* usable as a stable operating system. Compare it to always cutting edge like

Re: Rolling release model philosophy (was Re: Anaconda is totally trashing the F18 schedule (was Re: f18: how to install into a LVM partitions (or RAID)))

2012-11-02 Thread Adam Williamson
On Fri, 2012-11-02 at 21:07 +0100, drago01 wrote: Well your point basically is we can't/don't ship anything that is stable so we should give up on that. More or less, yes. I disagree with that. Fedora releases had some small regression introduced via updates from time but is is *very* usable

Re: Rolling release model philosophy (was Re: Anaconda is totally trashing the F18 schedule (was Re: f18: how to install into a LVM partitions (or RAID)))

2012-11-02 Thread Jóhann B. Guðmundsson
On 11/02/2012 07:56 PM, Adam Williamson wrote: Anyway, we've rather torpedo'ed the feature process discussion now, and I'm sorry about that :/. Hence the topic change. But while we're blue sky thinking about massive release process changes, I think it's worth keeping a firm grasp on what Fedora

Re: Rolling release model philosophy (was Re: Anaconda is totally trashing the F18 schedule (was Re: f18: how to install into a LVM partitions (or RAID)))

2012-11-02 Thread Tom Lane
Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com writes: On Fri, 2012-11-02 at 21:07 +0100, drago01 wrote: I disagree with that. Fedora releases had some small regression introduced via updates from time but is is *very* usable as a stable operating system. I disagree. It's usable by the kind of people

Re: Rolling release model philosophy (was Re: Anaconda is totally trashing the F18 schedule (was Re: f18: how to install into a LVM partitions (or RAID)))

2012-11-02 Thread drago01
On Fri, Nov 2, 2012 at 10:53 PM, Tom Lane t...@redhat.com wrote: Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com writes: On Fri, 2012-11-02 at 21:07 +0100, drago01 wrote: I disagree with that. Fedora releases had some small regression introduced via updates from time but is is *very* usable as a stable

Re: Rolling release model philosophy (was Re: Anaconda is totally trashing the F18 schedule (was Re: f18: how to install into a LVM partitions (or RAID)))

2012-11-02 Thread Adam Williamson
On Fri, 2012-11-02 at 17:53 -0400, Tom Lane wrote: Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com writes: On Fri, 2012-11-02 at 21:07 +0100, drago01 wrote: I disagree with that. Fedora releases had some small regression introduced via updates from time but is is *very* usable as a stable operating

Re: Rolling release model philosophy (was Re: Anaconda is totally trashing the F18 schedule (was Re: f18: how to install into a LVM partitions (or RAID)))

2012-11-02 Thread Reindl Harald
Am 02.11.2012 22:53, schrieb Tom Lane: Abandoning any pretense of having stable releases will eliminate a huge fraction of the user community. For sure it will eliminate *me*. I'm not in the business of fighting OS bugs every single day, and I will not be forced into that business. I have

Re: Rolling release model philosophy (was Re: Anaconda is totally trashing the F18 schedule (was Re: f18: how to install into a LVM partitions (or RAID)))

2012-11-02 Thread Kevin Fenzi
On Fri, 02 Nov 2012 15:17:02 -0700 Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com wrote: ..snip... If you're using a Fedora release today you're _already_ fighting OS bugs more often than most people do, I'd say. I disagree with drago's assertion that my description was of people who use Rawhide. It was

Re: Rolling release model philosophy (was Re: Anaconda is totally trashing the F18 schedule (was Re: f18: how to install into a LVM partitions (or RAID)))

2012-11-02 Thread Tom Lane
Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com writes: On Fri, 2012-11-02 at 17:53 -0400, Tom Lane wrote: I've seen a whole lot of user demand for *more* stable versions of Fedora. I've seen none whatever for less stable versions. Perhaps I ought to be more clear. I think we can maintain the level of

Re: Rolling release model philosophy (was Re: Anaconda is totally trashing the F18 schedule (was Re: f18: how to install into a LVM partitions (or RAID)))

2012-11-02 Thread Brian Pepple
On Fri, Nov 2, 2012 at 6:17 PM, Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com wrote: If you're using a Fedora release today you're _already_ fighting OS bugs more often than most people do, I'd say. I disagree with drago's assertion that my description was of people who use Rawhide. It was not intended

Re: Rolling release model philosophy (was Re: Anaconda is totally trashing the F18 schedule (was Re: f18: how to install into a LVM partitions (or RAID)))

2012-11-02 Thread Simo Sorce
On Fri, 2012-11-02 at 13:22 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: On Fri, 2012-11-02 at 21:07 +0100, drago01 wrote: Well your point basically is we can't/don't ship anything that is stable so we should give up on that. More or less, yes. I disagree with that. Fedora releases had some small

Re: Rolling release model philosophy (was Re: Anaconda is totally trashing the F18 schedule (was Re: f18: how to install into a LVM partitions (or RAID)))

2012-11-02 Thread Adam Williamson
On Fri, 2012-11-02 at 16:31 -0600, Kevin Fenzi wrote: On Fri, 02 Nov 2012 15:17:02 -0700 Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com wrote: ..snip... If you're using a Fedora release today you're _already_ fighting OS bugs more often than most people do, I'd say. I disagree with drago's

Re: Rolling release model philosophy (was Re: Anaconda is totally trashing the F18 schedule (was Re: f18: how to install into a LVM partitions (or RAID)))

2012-11-02 Thread drago01
On Sat, Nov 3, 2012 at 12:04 AM, Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com wrote: [...] * Upgrading every year, with an unreliable upgrade process, is not something you have to do with a proper stable OS I am not sure why you call it unreliable ... I *never* reinstall unless I really had to (moving

Re: Rolling release model philosophy (was Re: Anaconda is totally trashing the F18 schedule (was Re: f18: how to install into a LVM partitions (or RAID)))

2012-11-02 Thread Adam Williamson
On Fri, 2012-11-02 at 16:04 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: My fundamental argument is there's a bit of a disconnect between our release process - which is sort of aping the way a stable general-purpose OS would be released, but on fast-forward and with far fewer resources - and our actual

Re: Rolling release model philosophy (was Re: Anaconda is totally trashing the F18 schedule (was Re: f18: how to install into a LVM partitions (or RAID)))

2012-11-02 Thread Simo Sorce
On Fri, 2012-11-02 at 16:04 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: On Fri, 2012-11-02 at 16:31 -0600, Kevin Fenzi wrote: On Fri, 02 Nov 2012 15:17:02 -0700 Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com wrote: ..snip... If you're using a Fedora release today you're _already_ fighting OS bugs more

Re: Rolling release model philosophy (was Re: Anaconda is totally trashing the F18 schedule (was Re: f18: how to install into a LVM partitions (or RAID)))

2012-11-02 Thread Adam Williamson
On Sat, 2012-11-03 at 00:18 +0100, drago01 wrote: On Sat, Nov 3, 2012 at 12:04 AM, Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com wrote: [...] * Upgrading every year, with an unreliable upgrade process, is not something you have to do with a proper stable OS I am not sure why you call it unreliable

Re: Rolling release model philosophy (was Re: Anaconda is totally trashing the F18 schedule (was Re: f18: how to install into a LVM partitions (or RAID)))

2012-11-02 Thread Simo Sorce
On Sat, 2012-11-03 at 00:18 +0100, drago01 wrote: On Sat, Nov 3, 2012 at 12:04 AM, Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com wrote: [...] * Upgrading every year, with an unreliable upgrade process, is not something you have to do with a proper stable OS I am not sure why you call it unreliable

Re: Rolling release model philosophy (was Re: Anaconda is totally trashing the F18 schedule (was Re: f18: how to install into a LVM partitions (or RAID)))

2012-11-02 Thread Michał Piotrowski
Hi, 2012/11/3 Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com: Note that neither Red Hat nor Microsoft actually support major version upgrades for their operating systems Just take a look at this - MS rocks here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPnehDhGa14 -- Best regards, Michal http://eventhorizon.pl/

Re: Rolling release model philosophy (was Re: Anaconda is totally trashing the F18 schedule (was Re: f18: how to install into a LVM partitions (or RAID)))

2012-11-02 Thread drago01
On Sat, Nov 3, 2012 at 12:32 AM, Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com wrote: On Sat, 2012-11-03 at 00:18 +0100, drago01 wrote: On Sat, Nov 3, 2012 at 12:04 AM, Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com wrote: [...] * Upgrading every year, with an unreliable upgrade process, is not something you

Re: Rolling release model philosophy (was Re: Anaconda is totally trashing the F18 schedule (was Re: f18: how to install into a LVM partitions (or RAID)))

2012-11-02 Thread Adam Williamson
On Sat, 2012-11-03 at 00:44 +0100, drago01 wrote: The number of variables involved in one is astronomical. Note that neither Red Hat nor Microsoft actually support major version upgrades for their operating systems, Microsoft does. They do even sell upgrade boxes ... Well, it's a bit

Re: Rolling release model philosophy (was Re: Anaconda is totally trashing the F18 schedule (was Re: f18: how to install into a LVM partitions (or RAID)))

2012-11-02 Thread Adam Williamson
On Sat, 2012-11-03 at 01:07 +0100, Reindl Harald wrote: Am 03.11.2012 00:58, schrieb Adam Williamson: Microsoft don't really expect you to upgrade Windows. They expect you to buy a computer with Windows X on it, use it for three years, then throw it away and buy a new computer with Windows

Re: Rolling release model philosophy (was Re: Anaconda is totally trashing the F18 schedule (was Re: f18: how to install into a LVM partitions (or RAID)))

2012-11-02 Thread Reindl Harald
Am 03.11.2012 00:58, schrieb Adam Williamson: Microsoft don't really expect you to upgrade Windows. They expect you to buy a computer with Windows X on it, use it for three years, then throw it away and buy a new computer with Windows Y on it. Red Hat expects something similar for RHEL - they

Re: Rolling release model philosophy (was Re: Anaconda is totally trashing the F18 schedule (was Re: f18: how to install into a LVM partitions (or RAID)))

2012-11-02 Thread Stephen John Smoogen
On 2 November 2012 17:36, Michał Piotrowski mkkp...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, 2012/11/3 Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com: Note that neither Red Hat nor Microsoft actually support major version upgrades for their operating systems Just take a look at this - MS rocks here