Re: Test machines for s390x?

[Kevin Fenzi]

On Thu, Aug 06, 2020 at 06:45:22PM +0200, Dan Horák wrote:
> On Wed, 5 Aug 2020 21:21:02 -0700
> Kevin Fenzi  wrote:
> 
> > On Wed, Aug 05, 2020 at 11:26:34PM -0400, Elliott Sales de Andrade wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > > 
> > > Now that ppc64 is gone, s390x is the only big-endian architecture
> > > left. Bugs around endianness are not usually difficult to fix, _if_ I
> > > can debug it and see where exactly the problem is. However, this
> > > requires a tedious guess-a-patch, try a scratch build, check the
> > > result, rinse and repeat.
> > > 
> > > Mock (with --forcearch) is completely useless for this. The programs
> > > just crash during the build in such a way that I can't even use
> > > `catchsegv`, and gdb is unusable in the container. And besides, the
> > > programs don't actually crash on real s390x anyway..
> > > 
> > > Just like we have test machines for other less used architectures [1],
> > > I am wondering if there is some way we can spin up a test machine for
> > > s390x?
> > 
> > Sorry, not with the current setup. ;( 
> > 
> > I'll keep an eye out for any possiblity tho... I'd love to be able to
> > provide one. 
> > 
> > I think there may be a way to get access to a guest from ibm though. 
> > (I'll let folks who know about that chime in here though)
> 
> Kevin, shall I try to get a guest from Marist we could use as the stable
> test/devel machine? Like we do with the ppc64le machine from the
> OpenPOWER hub.

Sure! That would be great... 

kevin


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Re: Test machines for s390x?

[Adam Williamson]

On Thu, 2020-08-06 at 18:43 -0400, Robbie Harwood wrote:
> Adam Williamson  writes:
> 
> > Neal Gompa wrote:
> > > Adam Williamson  wrote:
> > > > Robbie Harwood wrote:
> > > > > Elliott Sales de Andrade  writes:
> > > > > 
> > > > > > Now that ppc64 is gone, s390x is the only big-endian architecture
> > > > > > left. Bugs around endianness are not usually difficult to fix,
> > > > > > _if_ I can debug it and see where exactly the problem is. However,
> > > > > > this requires a tedious guess-a-patch, try a scratch build, check
> > > > > > the result, rinse and repeat.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Mock (with --forcearch) is completely useless for this. The
> > > > > > programs just crash during the build in such a way that I can't
> > > > > > even use `catchsegv`, and gdb is unusable in the container. And
> > > > > > besides, the programs don't actually crash on real s390x anyway..
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Just like we have test machines for other less used architectures
> > > > > > [1], I am wondering if there is some way we can spin up a test
> > > > > > machine for s390x?
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > [1] 
> > > > > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Machine_Resources_For_Package_Maintainers
> > > > > 
> > > > > It's very strange to me that having test hardware available isn't a
> > > > > requirement for being a Primary architecture, or for that
> > > > > architecture being present in koji.  IMO we should change that
> > > > > going forward.
> > > > 
> > > > s390x isn't a primary arch. It's an alternative arch.
> 
> That's true, which is why I had the "or".  I'd like it to be a
> requirement for either/both.

Right, I did miss that or, sorry.

> > > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Architectures
> > > 
> > > That page is out of date. All architectures are effectively primary
> > > now, since failures for any arch block builds from releasing in Koji.
> > 
> > We still draw a distinction between the two, it just doesn't have that
> > dimension to it any more. The page even explains this in its definition
> > at the top. The distinction is rather smaller now, but still there.
> > 
> > In the release criteria we've mostly switched to using the term
> > "release-blocking arches", and s390x isn't one of those either. :)
> 
> You're right, I'm being loose with language.  Neal's point is what I'm
> trying to articulate: whatever the formal position is, we as packagers
> have to care about making this architecture work, since our builds won't
> go through if it doesn't.

Sure, we should probably just call them "koji arches" or something...
-- 
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IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | XMPP: adamw AT happyassassin . net
http://www.happyassassin.net
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Re: Test machines for s390x?

[Robbie Harwood]

Adam Williamson  writes:

> Neal Gompa wrote:
>> Adam Williamson  wrote:
>>> Robbie Harwood wrote:
 Elliott Sales de Andrade  writes:
 
> Now that ppc64 is gone, s390x is the only big-endian architecture
> left. Bugs around endianness are not usually difficult to fix,
> _if_ I can debug it and see where exactly the problem is. However,
> this requires a tedious guess-a-patch, try a scratch build, check
> the result, rinse and repeat.
> 
> Mock (with --forcearch) is completely useless for this. The
> programs just crash during the build in such a way that I can't
> even use `catchsegv`, and gdb is unusable in the container. And
> besides, the programs don't actually crash on real s390x anyway..
> 
> Just like we have test machines for other less used architectures
> [1], I am wondering if there is some way we can spin up a test
> machine for s390x?
> 
> [1] 
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Machine_Resources_For_Package_Maintainers
 
 It's very strange to me that having test hardware available isn't a
 requirement for being a Primary architecture, or for that
 architecture being present in koji.  IMO we should change that
 going forward.
>>> 
>>> s390x isn't a primary arch. It's an alternative arch.

That's true, which is why I had the "or".  I'd like it to be a
requirement for either/both.

>>> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Architectures
>> 
>> That page is out of date. All architectures are effectively primary
>> now, since failures for any arch block builds from releasing in Koji.
>
> We still draw a distinction between the two, it just doesn't have that
> dimension to it any more. The page even explains this in its definition
> at the top. The distinction is rather smaller now, but still there.
>
> In the release criteria we've mostly switched to using the term
> "release-blocking arches", and s390x isn't one of those either. :)

You're right, I'm being loose with language.  Neal's point is what I'm
trying to articulate: whatever the formal position is, we as packagers
have to care about making this architecture work, since our builds won't
go through if it doesn't.

Thanks,
--Robbie


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Re: Test machines for s390x?

[Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski]

On Thursday, 06 August 2020 at 18:45, Dan Horák wrote:
[...]
> Kevin, shall I try to get a guest from Marist we could use as the stable
> test/devel machine? Like we do with the ppc64le machine from the
> OpenPOWER hub.

By the way, do you have a reliable support contact at the OpenPOWER hub?
I've been trying to contact Michal Ruprich for months about a couple
of VMs I have there that became inaccessible but there has been no reply.

Regards,
Dominik
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Re: Test machines for s390x?

[Adam Williamson]

On Thu, 2020-08-06 at 14:01 -0400, Neal Gompa wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 2:00 PM Adam Williamson
>  wrote:
> > 
> > On Thu, 2020-08-06 at 13:42 -0400, Robbie Harwood wrote:
> > > Elliott Sales de Andrade  writes:
> > > 
> > > > Hi,
> > > > 
> > > > Now that ppc64 is gone, s390x is the only big-endian architecture
> > > > left. Bugs around endianness are not usually difficult to fix, _if_ I
> > > > can debug it and see where exactly the problem is. However, this
> > > > requires a tedious guess-a-patch, try a scratch build, check the
> > > > result, rinse and repeat.
> > > > 
> > > > Mock (with --forcearch) is completely useless for this. The programs
> > > > just crash during the build in such a way that I can't even use
> > > > `catchsegv`, and gdb is unusable in the container. And besides, the
> > > > programs don't actually crash on real s390x anyway..
> > > > 
> > > > Just like we have test machines for other less used architectures [1],
> > > > I am wondering if there is some way we can spin up a test machine for
> > > > s390x?
> > > > 
> > > > [1] 
> > > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Machine_Resources_For_Package_Maintainers
> > > 
> > > It's very strange to me that having test hardware available isn't a
> > > requirement for being a Primary architecture, or for that architecture
> > > being present in koji.  IMO we should change that going forward.
> > 
> > s390x isn't a primary arch. It's an alternative arch.
> > 
> > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Architectures
> 
> That page is out of date. All architectures are effectively primary
> now, since failures for any arch block builds from releasing in Koji.

We still draw a distinction between the two, it just doesn't have that
dimension to it any more. The page even explains this in its definition
at the top. The distinction is rather smaller now, but still there.

In the release criteria we've mostly switched to using the term
"release-blocking arches", and s390x isn't one of those either. :)
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | XMPP: adamw AT happyassassin . net
http://www.happyassassin.net
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Re: Test machines for s390x?

[Neal Gompa]

On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 2:00 PM Adam Williamson
 wrote:
>
> On Thu, 2020-08-06 at 13:42 -0400, Robbie Harwood wrote:
> > Elliott Sales de Andrade  writes:
> >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > Now that ppc64 is gone, s390x is the only big-endian architecture
> > > left. Bugs around endianness are not usually difficult to fix, _if_ I
> > > can debug it and see where exactly the problem is. However, this
> > > requires a tedious guess-a-patch, try a scratch build, check the
> > > result, rinse and repeat.
> > >
> > > Mock (with --forcearch) is completely useless for this. The programs
> > > just crash during the build in such a way that I can't even use
> > > `catchsegv`, and gdb is unusable in the container. And besides, the
> > > programs don't actually crash on real s390x anyway..
> > >
> > > Just like we have test machines for other less used architectures [1],
> > > I am wondering if there is some way we can spin up a test machine for
> > > s390x?
> > >
> > > [1] 
> > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Machine_Resources_For_Package_Maintainers
> >
> > It's very strange to me that having test hardware available isn't a
> > requirement for being a Primary architecture, or for that architecture
> > being present in koji.  IMO we should change that going forward.
>
> s390x isn't a primary arch. It's an alternative arch.
>
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Architectures

That page is out of date. All architectures are effectively primary
now, since failures for any arch block builds from releasing in Koji.



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Re: Test machines for s390x?

[Adam Williamson]

On Thu, 2020-08-06 at 13:42 -0400, Robbie Harwood wrote:
> Elliott Sales de Andrade  writes:
> 
> > Hi,
> > 
> > Now that ppc64 is gone, s390x is the only big-endian architecture
> > left. Bugs around endianness are not usually difficult to fix, _if_ I
> > can debug it and see where exactly the problem is. However, this
> > requires a tedious guess-a-patch, try a scratch build, check the
> > result, rinse and repeat.
> > 
> > Mock (with --forcearch) is completely useless for this. The programs
> > just crash during the build in such a way that I can't even use
> > `catchsegv`, and gdb is unusable in the container. And besides, the
> > programs don't actually crash on real s390x anyway..
> > 
> > Just like we have test machines for other less used architectures [1],
> > I am wondering if there is some way we can spin up a test machine for
> > s390x?
> > 
> > [1] 
> > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Machine_Resources_For_Package_Maintainers
> 
> It's very strange to me that having test hardware available isn't a
> requirement for being a Primary architecture, or for that architecture
> being present in koji.  IMO we should change that going forward.

s390x isn't a primary arch. It's an alternative arch.

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Architectures
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | XMPP: adamw AT happyassassin . net
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Re: Test machines for s390x?

[Robbie Harwood]

Elliott Sales de Andrade  writes:

> Hi,
>
> Now that ppc64 is gone, s390x is the only big-endian architecture
> left. Bugs around endianness are not usually difficult to fix, _if_ I
> can debug it and see where exactly the problem is. However, this
> requires a tedious guess-a-patch, try a scratch build, check the
> result, rinse and repeat.
>
> Mock (with --forcearch) is completely useless for this. The programs
> just crash during the build in such a way that I can't even use
> `catchsegv`, and gdb is unusable in the container. And besides, the
> programs don't actually crash on real s390x anyway..
>
> Just like we have test machines for other less used architectures [1],
> I am wondering if there is some way we can spin up a test machine for
> s390x?
>
> [1] 
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Machine_Resources_For_Package_Maintainers

It's very strange to me that having test hardware available isn't a
requirement for being a Primary architecture, or for that architecture
being present in koji.  IMO we should change that going forward.

Thanks,
--Robbie


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Re: Test machines for s390x?

[Dan Horák]

On Wed, 5 Aug 2020 21:21:02 -0700
Kevin Fenzi  wrote:

> On Wed, Aug 05, 2020 at 11:26:34PM -0400, Elliott Sales de Andrade wrote:
> > Hi,
> > 
> > Now that ppc64 is gone, s390x is the only big-endian architecture
> > left. Bugs around endianness are not usually difficult to fix, _if_ I
> > can debug it and see where exactly the problem is. However, this
> > requires a tedious guess-a-patch, try a scratch build, check the
> > result, rinse and repeat.
> > 
> > Mock (with --forcearch) is completely useless for this. The programs
> > just crash during the build in such a way that I can't even use
> > `catchsegv`, and gdb is unusable in the container. And besides, the
> > programs don't actually crash on real s390x anyway..
> > 
> > Just like we have test machines for other less used architectures [1],
> > I am wondering if there is some way we can spin up a test machine for
> > s390x?
> 
> Sorry, not with the current setup. ;( 
> 
> I'll keep an eye out for any possiblity tho... I'd love to be able to
> provide one. 
> 
> I think there may be a way to get access to a guest from ibm though. 
> (I'll let folks who know about that chime in here though)

Kevin, shall I try to get a guest from Marist we could use as the stable
test/devel machine? Like we do with the ppc64le machine from the
OpenPOWER hub.


Dan
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Re: Test machines for s390x?

[Chris Murphy]

On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 9:27 PM Elliott Sales de Andrade
 wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> Now that ppc64 is gone, s390x is the only big-endian architecture
> left. Bugs around endianness are not usually difficult to fix, _if_ I
> can debug it and see where exactly the problem is. However, this
> requires a tedious guess-a-patch, try a scratch build, check the
> result, rinse and repeat.

ARM defaults to little-endian, but also supports big-endian. However I
have no idea to what degree there's software support for big-endian
ARM.


-- 
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Re: Test machines for s390x?

[Florian Weimer]

* Elliott Sales de Andrade:

> Just like we have test machines for other less used architectures [1],
> I am wondering if there is some way we can spin up a test machine for
> s390x?

Marist offers machine access for open-source development:





Debian has a porterbox as well.

I don't know which setup is more straightforward to use for Fedora
development.

Thanks,
Florian
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Re: Test machines for s390x?

[Miro Hrončok]

On 06. 08. 20 5:26, Elliott Sales de Andrade wrote:

Hi,

Now that ppc64 is gone, s390x is the only big-endian architecture
left. Bugs around endianness are not usually difficult to fix, _if_ I
can debug it and see where exactly the problem is. However, this
requires a tedious guess-a-patch, try a scratch build, check the
result, rinse and repeat.

Mock (with --forcearch) is completely useless for this. The programs
just crash during the build in such a way that I can't even use
`catchsegv`, and gdb is unusable in the container. And besides, the
programs don't actually crash on real s390x anyway..

Just like we have test machines for other less used architectures [1],
I am wondering if there is some way we can spin up a test machine for
s390x?


Dan (CCed) can arrange individual access.

--
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IRC: mhroncok
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Re: Test machines for s390x?

[Jun Aruga]

> I am wondering if there is some way we can spin up a test machine for s390x?

I do not know the way for s390x.

I wish that the test machine resources for s390x are supported by an
organization not only for Fedora but also for the upstream open source
projects for free,
as the resources for Arm are supported by the organization WorksOnArm
thriving Arm open ecosystem. [1]

[1] https://www.worksonarm.com/projects/
  > WorksOnArm supports a wide variety of projects, with a special
focus on build systems, low level languages, and cloud native
applications. Resources (which include powerful Ampere and Marvell
bare metal servers delivered via Packet’s cloud) can be requested for
testing, optimization, or to support services that benefit the
community.

-- 
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Re: Test machines for s390x?

[Kevin Fenzi]

On Wed, Aug 05, 2020 at 11:26:34PM -0400, Elliott Sales de Andrade wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Now that ppc64 is gone, s390x is the only big-endian architecture
> left. Bugs around endianness are not usually difficult to fix, _if_ I
> can debug it and see where exactly the problem is. However, this
> requires a tedious guess-a-patch, try a scratch build, check the
> result, rinse and repeat.
> 
> Mock (with --forcearch) is completely useless for this. The programs
> just crash during the build in such a way that I can't even use
> `catchsegv`, and gdb is unusable in the container. And besides, the
> programs don't actually crash on real s390x anyway..
> 
> Just like we have test machines for other less used architectures [1],
> I am wondering if there is some way we can spin up a test machine for
> s390x?

Sorry, not with the current setup. ;( 

I'll keep an eye out for any possiblity tho... I'd love to be able to
provide one. 

I think there may be a way to get access to a guest from ibm though. 
(I'll let folks who know about that chime in here though)

kevin


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Test machines for s390x?

[Elliott Sales de Andrade]

Hi,

Now that ppc64 is gone, s390x is the only big-endian architecture
left. Bugs around endianness are not usually difficult to fix, _if_ I
can debug it and see where exactly the problem is. However, this
requires a tedious guess-a-patch, try a scratch build, check the
result, rinse and repeat.

Mock (with --forcearch) is completely useless for this. The programs
just crash during the build in such a way that I can't even use
`catchsegv`, and gdb is unusable in the container. And besides, the
programs don't actually crash on real s390x anyway..

Just like we have test machines for other less used architectures [1],
I am wondering if there is some way we can spin up a test machine for
s390x?

[1] 
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Machine_Resources_For_Package_Maintainers

-- 
Elliott
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