Re: maybe a path forward for java and modules? [was Re: The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL)]

2020-09-19 Thread Fabio Valentini
On Fri, Sep 18, 2020 at 5:30 PM David Cantrell wrote: > > On Thu, Sep 17, 2020 at 12:51:46PM -0400, Matthew Miller wrote: > >On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 11:01:00AM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: > >> If one of the issues here can be stated as "we want buildroot-only > >> packages because we don't want

Re: maybe a path forward for java and modules? [was Re: The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL)]

2020-09-18 Thread David Cantrell
On Thu, Sep 17, 2020 at 12:51:46PM -0400, Matthew Miller wrote: On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 11:01:00AM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: If one of the issues here can be stated as "we want buildroot-only packages because we don't want to maintain those packages to a high standard", it is demonstrably a

Re: maybe a path forward for java and modules? [was Re: The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL)]

2020-09-18 Thread Petr Pisar
On Fri, Sep 18, 2020 at 12:21:15PM +0200, Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski wrote: > On Friday, 18 September 2020 at 11:22, Petr Pisar wrote: > > On Thu, Sep 17, 2020 at 12:51:46PM -0400, Matthew Miller wrote: > > > So: RH Java packagers, what if you build these packages as non-modular > > >

Re: maybe a path forward for java and modules? [was Re: The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL)]

2020-09-18 Thread Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski
On Friday, 18 September 2020 at 11:22, Petr Pisar wrote: > On Thu, Sep 17, 2020 at 12:51:46PM -0400, Matthew Miller wrote: > > So: RH Java packagers, what if you build these packages as non-modular > > (maybe using some scripting to make it happen at the same time as modular > > builds?) and

Re: maybe a path forward for java and modules? [was Re: The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL)]

2020-09-18 Thread Petr Pisar
On Thu, Sep 17, 2020 at 12:51:46PM -0400, Matthew Miller wrote: > So: RH Java packagers, what if you build these packages as non-modular > (maybe using some scripting to make it happen at the same time as modular > builds?) and add a readme explaining their maintenance state? Do you mean

Re: maybe a path forward for java and modules? [was Re: The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL)]

2020-09-18 Thread Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek
On Fri, Sep 18, 2020 at 02:16:11AM +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote: > Matthew Miller wrote: > > I mean, some of y'all like to maintain and keep obscure dependency > > packages up to date just for their own sake, and that's *awesome* -- but > > we just can't hold everyone to that standard. At least, not

Re: maybe a path forward for java and modules? [was Re: The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL)]

2020-09-17 Thread Kevin Kofler
Matthew Miller wrote: > I mean, some of y'all like to maintain and keep obscure dependency > packages up to date just for their own sake, and that's *awesome* -- but > we just can't hold everyone to that standard. At least, not if we want > more than a few dozen packagers. That is a pretty strong

Re: maybe a path forward for java and modules? [was Re: The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL)]

2020-09-17 Thread Adam Williamson
On Thu, 2020-09-17 at 13:30 -0400, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: > On Thu, 17 Sep 2020 at 12:53, Matthew Miller > wrote: > > > On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 11:01:00AM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: > > > If one of the issues here can be stated as "we want buildroot-only > > > packages because we don't

Re: maybe a path forward for java and modules? [was Re: The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL)]

2020-09-17 Thread Jeff Fearn
On 18/9/20 03:43, Matthew Miller wrote: > On Thu, Sep 17, 2020 at 01:30:26PM -0400, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: >> 'its broke' >> 'yes I know its broke.. I just need the header files' >> 'well I need it to work' 'well fix it yourself' >> 'no that is your job.. it says you OWN THE PACKAGE'. >> 'I

Re: maybe a path forward for java and modules? [was Re: The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL)]

2020-09-17 Thread Matthew Miller
On Thu, Sep 17, 2020 at 01:30:26PM -0400, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: > 'its broke' > 'yes I know its broke.. I just need the header files' > 'well I need it to work' 'well fix it yourself' > 'no that is your job.. it says you OWN THE PACKAGE'. > 'I just own it to build foobar' > 'too bad.. i am

Re: maybe a path forward for java and modules? [was Re: The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL)]

2020-09-17 Thread Stephen John Smoogen
On Thu, 17 Sep 2020 at 12:53, Matthew Miller wrote: > On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 11:01:00AM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: > > If one of the issues here can be stated as "we want buildroot-only > > packages because we don't want to maintain those packages to a high > > standard", it is demonstrably

maybe a path forward for java and modules? [was Re: The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL)]

2020-09-17 Thread Matthew Miller
On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 11:01:00AM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: > If one of the issues here can be stated as "we want buildroot-only > packages because we don't want to maintain those packages to a high > standard", it is demonstrably a viable choice within Fedora to just > *not maintain those

Re: The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL)

2020-09-15 Thread Hans de Goede
Hi, On 9/14/20 5:05 PM, Fabio Valentini wrote: On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 10:04 PM Hans de Goede wrote: Hi, On 9/11/20 6:08 PM, Fabio Valentini wrote: I can try to come up with a list of often-used-but-simple-to-maintain Java packages? Yes that sounds great. I would be happy to pick up a

Re: The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL)

2020-09-14 Thread Fabio Valentini
On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 10:04 PM Hans de Goede wrote: > > Hi, > > On 9/11/20 6:08 PM, Fabio Valentini wrote: > > I can try to come up with a list of often-used-but-simple-to-maintain > > Java packages? > > Yes that sounds great. I would be happy to pick up a few of > those to help and if a bunch

Re: The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL)

2020-09-13 Thread Kevin Kofler
Mikolaj Izdebski wrote: > Modularity provides not only a different way of grouping or delivering > RPM packages, but most importantly, a different way of building RPM > packages. > > You get a side tag in Koji where you can have private build-only > dependencies that are discarded (filtered) once

Re: The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL)

2020-09-12 Thread Fabio Valentini
On Sat, Sep 12, 2020 at 11:05 AM Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek wrote: > > On Sat, Sep 12, 2020 at 10:32:51AM +0200, Vitaly Zaitsev via devel wrote: > > On 11.09.2020 18:42, Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek wrote: > > > I'm not enthusiastic about build-time-only packages, but if the choice > > > is

Re: The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL)

2020-09-12 Thread Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek
On Sat, Sep 12, 2020 at 10:32:51AM +0200, Vitaly Zaitsev via devel wrote: > On 11.09.2020 18:42, Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek wrote: > > I'm not enthusiastic about build-time-only packages, but if the choice > > is between that and retiring the packages (or hiding them in modules > > which has the

Re: The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL)

2020-09-12 Thread Vitaly Zaitsev via devel
On 11.09.2020 18:42, Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek wrote: > I'm not enthusiastic about build-time-only packages, but if the choice > is between that and retiring the packages (or hiding them in modules > which has the same effect), I'll take it. This will be Modularity 2.0. All packages must be

Re: The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL)

2020-09-12 Thread Vitaly Zaitsev via devel
On 11.09.2020 10:16, Mikolaj Izdebski wrote: > You get a side tag in Koji where you can have private build-only > dependencies that are discarded (filtered) once they are no longer > needed, after module build is done. IMO, this is a very bad practice. I maintain a lot of C++ header-only

Re: The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL)

2020-09-11 Thread Christopher
On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 2:02 PM Adam Williamson wrote: > > On Fri, 2020-09-11 at 12:44 +0300, Aleksandar Kurtakov wrote: > > On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 11:54 AM Tomasz Torcz wrote: > > > > > On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 10:16:02AM +0200, Mikolaj Izdebski wrote: > > > > You get a side tag in Koji where

Re: Modules without packaged non-modular versions (Was Re: The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL))

2020-09-11 Thread Miro Hrončok
On 11. 09. 20 22:55, Jie Kang wrote: On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 11:10 AM Miro Hrončok wrote: On 10. 09. 20 16:53, Vitaly Zaitsev via devel wrote: I think FESCo should completely forbid modules without packaged non-modular versions. It did. Hi, Can you share the ticket/issue for this

Re: Modules without packaged non-modular versions (Was Re: The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL))

2020-09-11 Thread Fabio Valentini
On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 10:56 PM Jie Kang wrote: > > On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 11:10 AM Miro Hrončok wrote: > > > > On 10. 09. 20 16:53, Vitaly Zaitsev via devel wrote: > > > I think FESCo should completely forbid modules without packaged > > > non-modular versions. > > > > It did. > > Hi, > > Can

Modules without packaged non-modular versions (Was Re: The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL))

2020-09-11 Thread Jie Kang
On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 11:10 AM Miro Hrončok wrote: > > On 10. 09. 20 16:53, Vitaly Zaitsev via devel wrote: > > I think FESCo should completely forbid modules without packaged > > non-modular versions. > > It did. Hi, Can you share the ticket/issue for this restriction with me? Thank you,

Re: The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL)

2020-09-11 Thread Hans de Goede
Hi, On 9/11/20 6:08 PM, Fabio Valentini wrote: On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 1:06 PM Hans de Goede wrote: Hi, On 9/11/20 12:47 PM, Vít Ondruch wrote: Dne 11. 09. 20 v 11:03 Hans de Goede napsal(a): On 9/11/20 10:16 AM, Mikolaj Izdebski wrote: Another, more concrete example: core Ant

Re: The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL)

2020-09-11 Thread Adam Williamson
On Fri, 2020-09-11 at 12:44 +0300, Aleksandar Kurtakov wrote: > On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 11:54 AM Tomasz Torcz wrote: > > > On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 10:16:02AM +0200, Mikolaj Izdebski wrote: > > > You get a side tag in Koji where you can have private build-only > > > dependencies that are

Re: The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL)

2020-09-11 Thread Alexander Scheel
What Fabio just mentioned was that the current use case for a build-time only package is invalid. A lot of packages Mikolaj is trying to get build-time only (via modules) are still maintained by the Java Maintenance SIG because they're required by other packages. Allowing them to be build-time

Re: The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL)

2020-09-11 Thread Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek
On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 06:01:11PM +0200, Fabio Valentini wrote: > On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 5:52 PM Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek > wrote: > > > > On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 11:03:39AM +0200, Hans de Goede wrote: > > > An other more generic approach which has been brought up once or > > > twice, but

Re: The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL)

2020-09-11 Thread Fabio Valentini
On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 1:06 PM Hans de Goede wrote: > > Hi, > > On 9/11/20 12:47 PM, Vít Ondruch wrote: > > > > Dne 11. 09. 20 v 11:03 Hans de Goede napsal(a): > >> > >> > >> On 9/11/20 10:16 AM, Mikolaj Izdebski wrote: > >> > >>> Another, more concrete example: core Ant doesn't have any

Re: The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL)

2020-09-11 Thread Fabio Valentini
On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 5:52 PM Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek wrote: > > On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 11:03:39AM +0200, Hans de Goede wrote: > > An other more generic approach which has been brought up once or > > twice, but which not really has been discussed in much detail yet > > I believe is

Re: The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL)

2020-09-11 Thread Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek
On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 11:03:39AM +0200, Hans de Goede wrote: > An other more generic approach which has been brought up once or > twice, but which not really has been discussed in much detail yet > I believe is creating a fedora-builddep repository. > > ATM a normal user has 3 ursine Fedora

Re: The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL)

2020-09-11 Thread David Cantrell
On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 06:30:05PM +0100, Daniel P. Berrangé wrote: On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 04:03:46PM +0200, Petr Pisar wrote: On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 02:35:13PM +0100, Daniel P. Berrangé wrote: > On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 01:50:55PM +0100, Joe Orton wrote: > > > 4. The benefit we want to

Re: The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL)

2020-09-11 Thread Stephen John Smoogen
On Fri, 11 Sep 2020 at 07:27, Mario Torre wrote: > On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 11:04 AM Hans de Goede > wrote: > > > So for this tomcat needed for testing problem, I'm thinking that we > > might solve this in a very non Fedora way. Why not bundle the old > > tomcat-sources with the sources which

Re: The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL)

2020-09-11 Thread Mario Torre
On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 11:04 AM Hans de Goede wrote: > So for this tomcat needed for testing problem, I'm thinking that we > might solve this in a very non Fedora way. Why not bundle the old > tomcat-sources with the sources which need it for their test-suite > (and build it before running the

Re: The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL)

2020-09-11 Thread Hans de Goede
Hi, On 9/11/20 12:47 PM, Vít Ondruch wrote: Dne 11. 09. 20 v 11:03 Hans de Goede napsal(a): On 9/11/20 10:16 AM, Mikolaj Izdebski wrote: Another, more concrete example: core Ant doesn't have any dependencies beyond JDK. It is easy to build and maintain, yet very functional. On the other

Re: The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL)

2020-09-11 Thread Vít Ondruch
Dne 11. 09. 20 v 11:03 Hans de Goede napsal(a): > > > On 9/11/20 10:16 AM, Mikolaj Izdebski wrote: > >> Another, more concrete example: core Ant doesn't have any dependencies >> beyond JDK. It is easy to build and maintain, yet very functional. On >> the other hand, full Ant with all the optional

Re: The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL)

2020-09-11 Thread Mikolaj Izdebski
On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 11:01 AM Miro Hrončok wrote: > > Thank you for describing the entire story from your pov, I think it's very > helpful! > > On 11. 09. 20 9:34, Mikolaj Izdebski wrote: > > I can't drop my > > packages and move back to co-maintaining ursine packages as it would > > mean

Re: The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL)

2020-09-11 Thread Mikolaj Izdebski
On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 10:54 AM Tomasz Torcz wrote: > > On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 10:16:02AM +0200, Mikolaj Izdebski wrote: > > You get a side tag in Koji where you can have private build-only > > dependencies that are discarded (filtered) once they are no longer > > needed, after module build is

Re: The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL)

2020-09-11 Thread Aleksandar Kurtakov
On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 11:54 AM Tomasz Torcz wrote: > On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 10:16:02AM +0200, Mikolaj Izdebski wrote: > > You get a side tag in Koji where you can have private build-only > > dependencies that are discarded (filtered) once they are no longer > > needed, after module build is

Re: The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL)

2020-09-11 Thread Vít Ondruch
Dne 11. 09. 20 v 8:43 Petr Pisar napsal(a): > On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 09:59:05PM +, Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek wrote: >> For Maven packaging the appeal of Modularity is clearly the privatization of >> the dependency tree, which obviously undercuts the ecosystem of packages. >> > You are

Re: The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL)

2020-09-11 Thread Mat Booth
On Fri, 11 Sep 2020 at 09:54, Tomasz Torcz wrote: > > On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 10:16:02AM +0200, Mikolaj Izdebski wrote: > > You get a side tag in Koji where you can have private build-only > > dependencies that are discarded (filtered) once they are no longer > > needed, after module build is

Re: The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL)

2020-09-11 Thread Hans de Goede
Hi, First of all a big thank you to everyone involved in the discussion for the constructive discussion. I agree that the situation around java packaging is quite worrying and I'm happy to see that people are trying to come up with a pragmatic solution to the current deadlock situation. On

Re: The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL)

2020-09-11 Thread Miro Hrončok
Thank you for describing the entire story from your pov, I think it's very helpful! On 11. 09. 20 9:34, Mikolaj Izdebski wrote: I can't drop my packages and move back to co-maintaining ursine packages as it would mean losing 2 years of my work and the features I developed. I guess there are

Re: The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL)

2020-09-11 Thread Tomasz Torcz
On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 10:16:02AM +0200, Mikolaj Izdebski wrote: > You get a side tag in Koji where you can have private build-only > dependencies that are discarded (filtered) once they are no longer > needed, after module build is done. For build-only packages most of > security vulnerabilities

Re: The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL)

2020-09-11 Thread Mikolaj Izdebski
On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 8:44 AM Petr Pisar wrote: > > On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 09:59:05PM +, Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek wrote: > > For Maven packaging the appeal of Modularity is clearly the privatization of > > the dependency tree, which obviously undercuts the ecosystem of packages. > > >

Re: The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL)

2020-09-11 Thread Mikolaj Izdebski
On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 9:59 PM Matthew Miller wrote: > > On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 01:50:55PM +0100, Joe Orton wrote: > > maintain the non-modular packages. We are not going to promise to > > commit time and resources to maintain the non-modular packages. > > Joe, here's a part I hope you can

Re: The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL)

2020-09-11 Thread Mikolaj Izdebski
On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 12:32 AM Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek wrote: > This exchange summarizes the situation nicely. > > Modularity can be considered an over-complicated hyped-through-the-roof > bundling mechanism. > > For a long time Fedora has very strongly discouraged bundling in the sense of

Re: The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL)

2020-09-11 Thread Petr Pisar
On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 09:59:05PM +, Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek wrote: > For Maven packaging the appeal of Modularity is clearly the privatization of > the dependency tree, which obviously undercuts the ecosystem of packages. > You are right that bundling is one of the features of

Re: The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL)

2020-09-10 Thread Guido Aulisi
> Il giorno 10 set 2020, alle ore 16:53, Vitaly Zaitsev via devel > ha scritto: > > On 10.09.2020 16:10, Aleksandar Kurtakov wrote: >> Flatpak is way better suited for our use case and in addition gives us >> access to a way bigger install base. > > Flathub is a third-party repository and

Re: The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL)

2020-09-10 Thread Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek
On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 12:12:05PM -0400, Robbie Harwood wrote: > Mikolaj Izdebski writes: > > On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 3:46 PM Alexander Scheel wrote: > >> Hi Joe, > >> On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 8:52 AM Joe Orton wrote: > >> > I'm writing as the Red Hat engineering manager responsible for Maven

Re: The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL)

2020-09-10 Thread Stephen John Smoogen
On Thu, 10 Sep 2020 at 13:31, Daniel P. Berrangé wrote: > On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 04:03:46PM +0200, Petr Pisar wrote: > > On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 02:35:13PM +0100, Daniel P. Berrangé wrote: > > > On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 01:50:55PM +0100, Joe Orton wrote: > > > > > > > 4. The benefit we want to

Re: The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL)

2020-09-10 Thread Adam Williamson
On Thu, 2020-09-10 at 22:19 +0200, Mikolaj Izdebski wrote: > > > > So conceptually, one way we can solve this problem by implementing a way > > to mark certain non-modular RPMs as "build root only" packages and thus > > composing them into a separate "build root" yum repo, that is not enabled > >

Re: The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL)

2020-09-10 Thread Mikolaj Izdebski
On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 7:31 PM Daniel P. Berrangé wrote: > > On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 04:03:46PM +0200, Petr Pisar wrote: > > On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 02:35:13PM +0100, Daniel P. Berrangé wrote: > > > On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 01:50:55PM +0100, Joe Orton wrote: > > > > > > > 4. The benefit we want

Re: The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL)

2020-09-10 Thread Matthew Miller
On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 01:50:55PM +0100, Joe Orton wrote: > maintain the non-modular packages.  We are not going to promise to > commit time and resources to maintain the non-modular packages. Joe, here's a part I hope you can help me understand better. Modularity isn't an entirely new

Re: The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL)

2020-09-10 Thread Neal Gompa
On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 2:04 PM Daniel P. Berrangé wrote: > > On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 01:37:41PM -0400, Neal Gompa wrote: > > On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 1:30 PM Daniel P. Berrangé > > wrote: > > > > > > On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 04:03:46PM +0200, Petr Pisar wrote: > > > > On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at

Re: The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL)

2020-09-10 Thread Christopher
On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 11:08 AM Aleksandar Kurtakov wrote: > > > > On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 5:54 PM Vitaly Zaitsev via devel > wrote: >> >> On 10.09.2020 16:10, Aleksandar Kurtakov wrote: >> > Flatpak is way better suited for our use case and in addition gives us >> > access to a way bigger

Re: The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL)

2020-09-10 Thread Daniel P . Berrangé
On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 01:37:41PM -0400, Neal Gompa wrote: > On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 1:30 PM Daniel P. Berrangé > wrote: > > > > On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 04:03:46PM +0200, Petr Pisar wrote: > > > On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 02:35:13PM +0100, Daniel P. Berrangé wrote: > > > > On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at

The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL)

2020-09-10 Thread Mario Torre
I think there's a difference between libraries and applications though. I for one think that not having Eclipse packaged in Fedora/RHEL etc.. would be a big loss, the same goes for Mission Control which we maintain On Wed, Sep 9, 2020 at 5:00 PM Aleksandar Kurtakov wrote: > > > > On Wed, Sep 9,

Re: The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL)

2020-09-10 Thread Neal Gompa
On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 1:30 PM Daniel P. Berrangé wrote: > > On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 04:03:46PM +0200, Petr Pisar wrote: > > On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 02:35:13PM +0100, Daniel P. Berrangé wrote: > > > On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 01:50:55PM +0100, Joe Orton wrote: > > > > > > > 4. The benefit we want

Re: The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL)

2020-09-10 Thread Daniel P . Berrangé
On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 04:03:46PM +0200, Petr Pisar wrote: > On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 02:35:13PM +0100, Daniel P. Berrangé wrote: > > On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 01:50:55PM +0100, Joe Orton wrote: > > > > > 4. The benefit we want to preserve from modules is to maintain packages > > > with varying

Re: The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL)

2020-09-10 Thread Fabio Valentini
On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 4:23 PM Mikolaj Izdebski wrote: > > On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 3:29 PM Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski > wrote: > > > > On Thursday, 10 September 2020 at 14:50, Joe Orton wrote: > > [...] > > > 1. The team has two missions in Fedora: > > > > > > a) We deliver, maintain and

Re: The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL)

2020-09-10 Thread Robbie Harwood
Mikolaj Izdebski writes: > On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 3:46 PM Alexander Scheel wrote: >> >> Hi Joe, >> >> On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 8:52 AM Joe Orton wrote: >> > >> > Hi all, >> > >> > I'm writing as the Red Hat engineering manager responsible for Maven and >> > Ant in RHEL, and on behalf of

Re: The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL)

2020-09-10 Thread Alexander Scheel
Ben, Can Fedora first-party flatpaks be built from unsigned, untrusted content outside of the Fedora Repos? Or can they only be built from content otherwise already present in Fedora? Just curious what benefits a first-party flatpak has versus an upstream one. AFAIK, the last Fedora Container

Re: The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL)

2020-09-10 Thread Ben Cotton
On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 10:54 AM Vitaly Zaitsev via devel wrote: > > On 10.09.2020 16:10, Aleksandar Kurtakov wrote: > > Flatpak is way better suited for our use case and in addition gives us > > access to a way bigger install base. > > Flathub is a third-party repository and not related to

Re: The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL)

2020-09-10 Thread Tomasz Torcz
On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 04:38:04PM +0200, Mikolaj Izdebski wrote: > > > > > > In modular Fedora that's (effectively) not true. Packages that only exist > > > for the sake of building other packages (i.e. build-only dependencies) > > > can be > > > retained in the Fedora build system and never

Re: The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL)

2020-09-10 Thread Miro Hrončok
On 10. 09. 20 16:53, Vitaly Zaitsev via devel wrote: I think FESCo should completely forbid modules without packaged non-modular versions. It did. -- Miro Hrončok -- Phone: +420777974800 IRC: mhroncok ___ devel mailing list --

Re: The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL)

2020-09-10 Thread Aleksandar Kurtakov
On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 5:54 PM Vitaly Zaitsev via devel < devel@lists.fedoraproject.org> wrote: > On 10.09.2020 16:10, Aleksandar Kurtakov wrote: > > Flatpak is way better suited for our use case and in addition gives us > > access to a way bigger install base. > > Flathub is a third-party

Re: The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL)

2020-09-10 Thread Vitaly Zaitsev via devel
On 10.09.2020 16:10, Aleksandar Kurtakov wrote: > Flatpak is way better suited for our use case and in addition gives us > access to a way bigger install base. Flathub is a third-party repository and not related to Fedora at all. > And the involvement on Java packaging in Fedora is so low that

Re: The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL)

2020-09-10 Thread Mikolaj Izdebski
On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 4:35 PM Tomasz Torcz wrote: > > On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 04:03:46PM +0200, Petr Pisar wrote: > > In non-modular Fedora all packages that we have in Fedora build system > > (Koji) > > are tagged into Fedora repositories and made available to all users on their > > computers

Re: The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL)

2020-09-10 Thread Mikolaj Izdebski
On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 3:46 PM Alexander Scheel wrote: > > Hi Joe, > > On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 8:52 AM Joe Orton wrote: > > > > Hi all, > > > > I'm writing as the Red Hat engineering manager responsible for Maven and > > Ant in RHEL, and on behalf of Mikolaj Izdebski and Marian Koncek from my >

Re: The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL)

2020-09-10 Thread Tomasz Torcz
On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 04:03:46PM +0200, Petr Pisar wrote: > In non-modular Fedora all packages that we have in Fedora build system (Koji) > are tagged into Fedora repositories and made available to all users on their > computers for any purpose. That implies that all packages in Fedora build >

Re: The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL)

2020-09-10 Thread Alexander Scheel
On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 10:11 AM Aleksandar Kurtakov wrote: > > > > On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 4:46 PM Alexander Scheel wrote: >> >> Hi Joe, >> >> On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 8:52 AM Joe Orton wrote: >> > >> > Hi all, >> > >> > I'm writing as the Red Hat engineering manager responsible for Maven and

Re: The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL)

2020-09-10 Thread Mikolaj Izdebski
On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 4:04 PM Petr Pisar wrote: > > On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 02:35:13PM +0100, Daniel P. Berrangé wrote: > > On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 01:50:55PM +0100, Joe Orton wrote: > > > > > 4. The benefit we want to preserve from modules is to maintain packages > > > with varying

Re: The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL)

2020-09-10 Thread Mikolaj Izdebski
On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 3:29 PM Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski wrote: > > On Thursday, 10 September 2020 at 14:50, Joe Orton wrote: > [...] > > 1. The team has two missions in Fedora: > > > > a) We deliver, maintain and support Ant and Maven in Fedora. Our aim > > is to provide developers with

Re: The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL)

2020-09-10 Thread Aleksandar Kurtakov
On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 4:46 PM Alexander Scheel wrote: > Hi Joe, > > On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 8:52 AM Joe Orton wrote: > > > > Hi all, > > > > I'm writing as the Red Hat engineering manager responsible for Maven and > > Ant in RHEL, and on behalf of Mikolaj Izdebski and Marian Koncek from my >

Re: The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL)

2020-09-10 Thread Petr Pisar
On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 02:35:13PM +0100, Daniel P. Berrangé wrote: > On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 01:50:55PM +0100, Joe Orton wrote: > > > 4. The benefit we want to preserve from modules is to maintain packages > > with varying expectation of quality, specifically separating the > >

Re: The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL)

2020-09-10 Thread Alexander Scheel
Hi Joe, On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 8:52 AM Joe Orton wrote: > > Hi all, > > I'm writing as the Red Hat engineering manager responsible for Maven and > Ant in RHEL, and on behalf of Mikolaj Izdebski and Marian Koncek from my > team. I want to give a broad response to some of the points here: > > 1.

Re: The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL)

2020-09-10 Thread Daniel P . Berrangé
On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 01:50:55PM +0100, Joe Orton wrote: > 4. The benefit we want to preserve from modules is to maintain packages > with varying expectation of quality, specifically separating the > build-time-only vs runtime dependencies.  e.g. in that case that a web > server like

Re: The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL)

2020-09-10 Thread Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski
On Thursday, 10 September 2020 at 14:50, Joe Orton wrote: [...] > 1.  The team has two missions in Fedora: > > a) We deliver, maintain and support Ant and Maven in Fedora. Our aim > is to provide developers with the most popular Java build systems > which are reviewed, tested, and updated through

Re: The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL)

2020-09-10 Thread Joe Orton
Hi all, I'm writing as the Red Hat engineering manager responsible for Maven and Ant in RHEL, and on behalf of Mikolaj Izdebski and Marian Koncek from my team.  I want to give a broad response to some of the points here: 1.  The team has two missions in Fedora: a) We deliver, maintain and

Re: The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL)

2020-09-09 Thread Fabio Valentini
On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 12:43 AM Alexander Scheel wrote: > > On Wed, Sep 9, 2020 at 6:27 PM Jerry James wrote: (snip) > > For those who are willing to help out, is > > https://pagure.io/java-maint-sig/issues the place to go to figure out > > what needs to be done? Is there any kind of TODO

Re: The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL)

2020-09-09 Thread Miro Hrončok
On 10. 09. 20 0:25, Jerry James wrote: For those who are willing to help out, is https://pagure.io/java-maint-sig/issues the place to go to figure out what needs to be done? Is there any kind of TODO list or wishlist elsewhere? There is also:

Re: The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL)

2020-09-09 Thread Alexander Scheel
On Wed, Sep 9, 2020 at 6:27 PM Jerry James wrote: > > On Tue, Sep 8, 2020 at 4:19 PM Fabio Valentini wrote: > > However! This has mostly been a one-man-show, with regular > > contributions by Mat Booth (whos thankless task is maintaining the > > Eclipse stack) and the Dogtag PKI team (thanks

Re: The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL)

2020-09-09 Thread Jerry James
On Tue, Sep 8, 2020 at 4:19 PM Fabio Valentini wrote: > However! This has mostly been a one-man-show, with regular > contributions by Mat Booth (whos thankless task is maintaining the > Eclipse stack) and the Dogtag PKI team (thanks guys!), who have lately > been busy doing other things (fixing

Re: The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL)

2020-09-09 Thread Aleksandar Kurtakov
On Wed, Sep 9, 2020 at 5:33 PM Stephen John Smoogen wrote: > > > On Wed, 9 Sep 2020 at 09:37, Björn Persson wrote: > >> Guido Aulisi wrote: >> > IMHO we could package only the JDK and let the user use Java software >> directly from upstream. >> > Usually upstream means Apache, which is a

Re: The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL)

2020-09-09 Thread Stephen John Smoogen
On Wed, 9 Sep 2020 at 09:37, Björn Persson wrote: > Guido Aulisi wrote: > > IMHO we could package only the JDK and let the user use Java software > directly from upstream. > > Usually upstream means Apache, which is a trusted source, and Java users > are smart enough to manage the Java packages.

Re: The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL)

2020-09-09 Thread Emmanuel Seyman
* Fabio Valentini [09/09/2020 00:19] : > > Can we please increase the bus / lottery > factor (= 1) for Java package maintenance in fedora? I know that at least one distribution bases its Java stack on Fedora's. Perhaps someonce could contact their maintainers and

Re: The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL)

2020-09-09 Thread Björn Persson
Guido Aulisi wrote: > IMHO we could package only the JDK and let the user use Java software > directly from upstream. > Usually upstream means Apache, which is a trusted source, and Java users are > smart enough to manage the Java packages. > I usuali do so when using maven, hadoop, tomcat, etc.

Re: The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL)

2020-09-09 Thread Peter Boy
> Am 09.09.2020 um 11:28 schrieb Guido Aulisi : > IMHO we could package only the JDK and let the user use Java software > directly from upstream. > Usually upstream means Apache, which is a trusted source, and Java users are > smart enough to manage the Java packages. > I usuali do so when

Re: The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL)

2020-09-09 Thread Guido Aulisi
Hi, > Il giorno 9 set 2020, alle ore 00:19, Fabio Valentini > ha scritto: > > Hi everybody, > > So, after some recent FESCo decisions (no default module streams in > fedora, new Module Policy for fedora and ELN modules), it's time to > ask this question again: > > What's the future of the

The Future of the Java Stack (also regarding ELN and RHEL)

2020-09-08 Thread Fabio Valentini
Hi everybody, So, after some recent FESCo decisions (no default module streams in fedora, new Module Policy for fedora and ELN modules), it's time to ask this question again: What's the future of the Java Stack in fedora, and by extension, in ELN (and possibly RHEL)? For the past ~18 months,