Re: wine font changes system look and feel
Andreas Bierfert wrote: We could of course aim for a dual-solution: Let wine-tahoma-fonts put the fonts in the wine font dir (mandatory for wine) and add a wine-tahoma-fonts-system package (names suggestions welcome) which also puts the fonts in the system wide font path (optional). I believe this would be the best solution available. The -system package can contain just a symlink to the wine-specific font directory. If this would be a feasible solution I would still like some opinions if this should be done for both fonts or just for the reported bugs about the bold version. I wonder, are all wine-provided fonts just (non-identical) replacements for Microsoft fonts, or is this the case only for WineTahoma? If there are likely to be similar issues with other wine fonts, could we just install all of them to wine-specific font directory and then create a new package wine-fonts-system that would depend on wine-fonts and installed symlinks into system-wide font directory for all the wine fonts? The result would be: * If you install wine, all wine fonts are installed just for wine, the rest of the system is not touched. * If you install wine-fonts-system, all the wine fonts are available system-wide. Andreas, what do you think? If you are not fond of this complete solution, can you implement at least the wine-tahoma-fonts vs wine-tahoma-fonts-system separation, as you proposed? Thanks. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: wine font changes system look and feel
On Mon, 2012-06-11 at 09:19 -0400, Kamil Paral wrote: Andreas, what do you think? If you are not fond of this complete solution, can you implement at least the wine-tahoma-fonts vs wine-tahoma-fonts-system separation, as you proposed? I will apply my proposed change for wine-tahoma with the 1.5.6 upgrade. -- Andreas Bierfert andreas.bierf...@lowlatency.de signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: wine font changes system look and feel
Le Mar 5 juin 2012 19:58, Kevin Kofler a écrit : Can we make the font available as Tahoma to WINE only and as Wine Tahoma or something like that (with font substitutions for plain Tahoma NOT configured by default) to systemwide fontconfig? At the fontconfig level all kinds of renaming tricks are possible (see the examples in fontpackages-devel) though as a rule it's better to avoid doing it here since it tends to have subtle side-effects -- Nicolas Mailhot -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: wine font changes system look and feel
We could of course aim for a dual-solution: Let wine-tahoma-fonts put the fonts in the wine font dir (mandatory for wine) and add a wine-tahoma-fonts-system package (names suggestions welcome) which also puts the fonts in the system wide font path (optional). I believe this would be the best solution available. The -system package can contain just a symlink to the wine-specific font directory. If this would be a feasible solution I would still like some opinions if this should be done for both fonts or just for the reported bugs about the bold version. I wonder, are all wine-provided fonts just (non-identical) replacements for Microsoft fonts, or is this the case only for WineTahoma? If there are likely to be similar issues with other wine fonts, could we just install all of them to wine-specific font directory and then create a new package wine-fonts-system that would depend on wine-fonts and installed symlinks into system-wide font directory for all the wine fonts? The result would be: * If you install wine, all wine fonts are installed just for wine, the rest of the system is not touched. * If you install wine-fonts-system, all the wine fonts are available system-wide. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: wine font changes system look and feel
Andreas wrote: Hi, first I would like to point out that I am totally open for a discussion about this. IMO bugzilla is just not the right place for it. Thanks, that's great. Chris wrote: Well, no they don't. They are requesting the font Microsoft calls Tahoma, not a Wine-provided imitation of Tahoma. I didn't know that wine-provided Tahoma is not exactly the same as Microsoft Tahoma. I just knew it looked horrible. That is an important information, thank you. From now on I'll write wine-Tahoma when talking about wine-provided Tahoma to make it clear. Chris wrote: Providing a font called Tahoma that isn't Tahoma is a bad idea. In general, the fonts that are designed to copy other fonts get a different name. In many cases, this is required because some font names are trademarked (IIRC Helvetica is an example). Wine should not call their font Tahoma. They should call it something else and then map requests for Tahoma to their imitation font. Is someone knowledgeable enough to put all the details and information together and open a ticket in wine bug-tracker? I can do it, but since I know nothing about fonts, my bug description might not explain the issue properly. Felix wrote: It happens because: 1-Microsoft's TTF fonts are not in the browser's font path 2-a poor imitation of Tahoma named Tahoma is in the browser's font path 3-Clueless web authors include Tahoma as a fallback to Verdana, which is not part of a standard Wine install, while the Tahoma impostor is This is a nice summary. Now, are we able to circumvent other people's mistakes and obstacles? I have to stress out one very important thing in case someone missed it: It is extremely easy to make a font available only to wine itself, it has a special directory for that. No other applications would see it. Andreas wrote: As a packager I, however, find it important that for the use-case of wine the best available user experience is provided. Hence this font needs to be included an pulled in by wine like it is today. Let's assume we have moved wine-Tahoma to wine-specific font directory: 1. Wine users experience stays the same - all wine applications are still rendered correctly 2. General users experience improves - web browser doesn't display a lot of favorite web pages (like Facebook) with an ugly-looking font Now, what is wrong about that? Andreas, if there are packaging guidelines that would be broken, I'm sure we can receive an exception. I can find out the correct approach and I will gladly help you discuss that with relevant people. If you are afraid there might be people out there who want wine-Tahoma as a system font, it is important to realize that those people are probably just a tiny fraction of the other side of the argument (users who prefer good-looking websites) and we can easily adjust the README to explain how to make the font user-wide or system-wide if required (together with a note that this is *not* Microsoft Tahoma and final appearance will differ). Or is there any other reason why you feel reluctant to make wine-Tahoma available only to wine by default? Thanks. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: wine font changes system look and feel
Le Mar 5 juin 2012 10:59, Kamil Paral a écrit : If you are afraid there might be people out there who want wine-Tahoma as a system font, it is important to realize that those people are probably just a tiny fraction of the other side of the argument That's a dangerous argument, looks are subjective and every time someone touches a font it deems ugly others disagree. It'd be much better if 1. the wine font didn't declare a name too heavy for it 2. the font package was made technically optionnal so people who love the font (I'm sure there are some like all the other times) can still use it -- Nicolas Mailhot -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: wine font changes system look and feel
On Tue, 2012-06-05 at 11:49 +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote: Le Mar 5 juin 2012 10:59, Kamil Paral a écrit : If you are afraid there might be people out there who want wine-Tahoma as a system font, it is important to realize that those people are probably just a tiny fraction of the other side of the argument That's a dangerous argument, looks are subjective and every time someone touches a font it deems ugly others disagree. That is exactly how I see this. On a side note: I personally have the package installed and don't find e. g. facebook particularly ugly or pretty. It'd be much better if 1. the wine font didn't declare a name too heavy for it I am no font expert but from my understanding it does not. Its name is WineTahoma (and WineTahomaBold respectively). Both fonts declare them to be part of the Tahoma family. From my understanding this is perfectly alright as they share some of the defining features of the MS Tahoma font (so maybe the looks differ). 2. the font package was made technically optionnal so people who love the font (I'm sure there are some like all the other times) can still use it Well this is the tricky part as I believe them essential for a standard wine setup. We could of course aim for a dual-solution: Let wine-tahoma-fonts put the fonts in the wine font dir (mandatory for wine) and add a wine-tahoma-fonts-system package (names suggestions welcome) which also puts the fonts in the system wide font path (optional). If this would be a feasible solution I would still like some opinions if this should be done for both fonts or just for the reported bugs about the bold version. -- Andreas Bierfert andreas.bierf...@lowlatency.de signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: wine font changes system look and feel
Kamil Paral wrote: Let's assume we have moved wine-Tahoma to wine-specific font directory: 1. Wine users experience stays the same - all wine applications are still rendered correctly 2. General users experience improves - web browser doesn't display a lot of favorite web pages (like Facebook) with an ugly-looking font Now, what is wrong about that? Can we make the font available as Tahoma to WINE only and as Wine Tahoma or something like that (with font substitutions for plain Tahoma NOT configured by default) to systemwide fontconfig? Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: wine font changes system look and feel
I'd like to brought to wider attention the bug https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=693180 What's the matter? If you install wine, it brings as a dependency wine-tahoma font, that is then included in system wide fonts list. This causes the font to be used by applications like Firefox when pages require tahoma. As the font is badly looking, it makes many things to look terrible. Some of us think, this font should be made specific for the wine application and not used system wide as it breaks the look and feel of too many things. Please make your voice to be heard on that. Adam Pribyl Adam, it might be better to cross-post this also to devel@ list, doing that now. I believe there are a few good engineering practices that every software should keep. One of them is that installing one application should not have detrimental effects to another application. That is violated here. Installing wine brings broken fonts (Tahoma, maybe some others) into the system and then have detrimental effects on font rendering in web applications. We should do something about it. It is unfortunate that wine package maintainer doesn't want to discuss this issue any further. To some extent, he is even right. Wine depends on a font and fonts are installed into system-wide directories. Web pages request that font. End of story. But the reality is not perfect and often we have to do compromises. This is another obstacle presented by Microsoft to the opensource world and we can't simply insist on that one and only correct solution. Because we know Tahoma rendering looks better on Windows and furthermore the web pages don't use it at all, it's just a fallback for some other font present in Windows but not in Linux. Our excuse is that there is a README in wine-tahoma-fonts package documenting how to blacklist it if you don't want it. Yes, but that doesn't help. We need Fedora to look good by default. I have heard several people saying Fonts are ugly in Fedora, I'll rather use Ubuntu instead. And guess what, Ubuntu has made these broken wine fonts wine-specific, so that they are used in wine but not in other system applications. You might disagree with their other endeavors, but they care about their user-base. Putting some info in a README is good for hackers, but it is useless for end-users. I believe the best solution here is to make Tahoma (and maybe some other fonts that are rendered horribly) a wine-specific font. Then add a README how to make those fonts available for all applications, if someone ever needs that. Or we can create a separate package for system-wide installation. This way we will have reasonable defaults and more happy users. Anyone, if you have a better suggestion how to solve this problem, please be heard. The desirable outcome is: 1. Wine is installed 2. Web page rendering looks pretty (no bitmap fonts) 3. No manual steps are needed Comments welcome. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: wine font changes system look and feel
Hi, first I would like to point out that I am totally open for a discussion about this. IMO bugzilla is just not the right place for it. As you have pointed out there are two aspects on this: A technical part and a subjective part about the look and feel. I guess we can agree that the technical part of font installation etc. is done like it should be. However, it is _not_ the wine-tahoma-fonts package which bullies its way and changes the system look and fell on its own. There are some web-pages which (maybe unintentionally) explicitly request a tahoma font and if you have wine installed - beware - they get what they request. You argue they do so as a fallback which under 'normal' circumstances should never be used. My question would then be why we do reach this point in the first place. Maybe that is a starting point where we can improve. We can also argue about the look and feel of the wine tahoma font itself and get to the point where we can vote if this is an ugly or a pretty font. I as a packager will not keep this freedom of choice from the fedora users. As a packager I, however, find it important that for the use-case of wine the best available user experience is provided. Hence this font needs to be included an pulled in by wine like it is today. Now the question remains if there is action needed on this issue. As I understand that some users do not like the wine tahoma font, the package as been adopted to disable bitmaps by default and instructions have been added on how to disable the font. I am sure the font itself could be improved in certain ways, so if there are skilled people who want to work on it I urge them to get in contact with upstream. For me the remaining issue is what has been mentioned in comment rhbz693180#37 about the tahomabd.ttf file. If this is the case we should see to get it fixed upstream. If it cannot be done upstream I am open for discussions to add a workaround which would be to either exclude tahomabd.ttf completely or get an exception to put it into wines own font dir till it is fixed. Regards, Andreas On Mon, 2012-06-04 at 05:04 -0400, Kamil Paral wrote: I'd like to brought to wider attention the bug https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=693180 What's the matter? If you install wine, it brings as a dependency wine-tahoma font, that is then included in system wide fonts list. This causes the font to be used by applications like Firefox when pages require tahoma. As the font is badly looking, it makes many things to look terrible. Some of us think, this font should be made specific for the wine application and not used system wide as it breaks the look and feel of too many things. Please make your voice to be heard on that. Adam Pribyl Adam, it might be better to cross-post this also to devel@ list, doing that now. I believe there are a few good engineering practices that every software should keep. One of them is that installing one application should not have detrimental effects to another application. That is violated here. Installing wine brings broken fonts (Tahoma, maybe some others) into the system and then have detrimental effects on font rendering in web applications. We should do something about it. It is unfortunate that wine package maintainer doesn't want to discuss this issue any further. To some extent, he is even right. Wine depends on a font and fonts are installed into system-wide directories. Web pages request that font. End of story. But the reality is not perfect and often we have to do compromises. This is another obstacle presented by Microsoft to the opensource world and we can't simply insist on that one and only correct solution. Because we know Tahoma rendering looks better on Windows and furthermore the web pages don't use it at all, it's just a fallback for some other font present in Windows but not in Linux. Our excuse is that there is a README in wine-tahoma-fonts package documenting how to blacklist it if you don't want it. Yes, but that doesn't help. We need Fedora to look good by default. I have heard several people saying Fonts are ugly in Fedora, I'll rather use Ubuntu instead. And guess what, Ubuntu has made these broken wine fonts wine-specific, so that they are used in wine but not in other system applications. You might disagree with their other endeavors, but they care about their user-base. Putting some info in a README is good for hackers, but it is useless for end-users. I believe the best solution here is to make Tahoma (and maybe some other fonts that are rendered horribly) a wine-specific font. Then add a README how to make those fonts available for all applications, if someone ever needs that. Or we can create a separate package for system-wide installation. This way we will have reasonable defaults and more happy users. Anyone, if you have a better suggestion how to solve this problem,
Re: wine font changes system look and feel
Once upon a time, Andreas Bierfert andreas.bierf...@lowlatency.de said: I guess we can agree that the technical part of font installation etc. is done like it should be. However, it is _not_ the wine-tahoma-fonts package which bullies its way and changes the system look and fell on its own. There are some web-pages which (maybe unintentionally) explicitly request a tahoma font and if you have wine installed - beware - they get what they request. Well, no they don't. They are requesting the font Microsoft calls Tahoma, not a Wine-provided imitation of Tahoma. Providing a font called Tahoma that isn't Tahoma is a bad idea. In general, the fonts that are designed to copy other fonts get a different name. In many cases, this is required because some font names are trademarked (IIRC Helvetica is an example). Wine should not call their font Tahoma. They should call it something else and then map requests for Tahoma to their imitation font. -- Chris Adams cmad...@hiwaay.net Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: wine font changes system look and feel
Hi, I agree some wine fonts are particularly ugly, but then : 1. why is wine making them mandatory? Can't the package be made optional in wine and wine use one of the default system fonts when it is not present? 2. otherwise an uglier workaround is to ship a fontconfig rule in your package that makes some other font take precedence when an app demands tahoma Either way, the problem is not how the font file is installed, or that other apps make use of tahoma in documents that specify tahoma when a tahoma font is available, it's that the font itself is ugly and wine does not suggest a better alternative to tahoma-loving apps -- Nicolas Mailhot -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: wine font changes system look and feel
On Mon, 2012-06-04 at 20:06 +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote: 1. why is wine making them mandatory? Can't the package be made optional in wine and wine use one of the default system fonts when it is not present? You can use wine without the font installed. It is just the meta package which pulls in the fonts so that a normal desktop use gets the best experience possible. You can obviously remove the font package and fiddle with wine.inf or your registry to define sensible replacements where you see fit. -- Andreas Bierfert andreas.bierf...@lowlatency.de signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: wine font changes system look and feel
On 2012/06/04 20:06 (GMT+0200) Nicolas Mailhot composed: 1. why is wine making them mandatory? Probably related to Tahoma being the Windows System (aka Menu) font in W2K and/or WXP (IIRC, in both). -- The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive. Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: wine font changes system look and feel
On Mon, 2012-06-04 at 16:21 -0400, Felix Miata wrote: On 2012/06/04 20:06 (GMT+0200) Nicolas Mailhot composed: 1. why is wine making them mandatory? Probably related to Tahoma being the Windows System (aka Menu) font in W2K and/or WXP (IIRC, in both). It is quite nicely described on wikipedia [1]: The Wine project includes a free font (Wine Tahoma Regular and Wine Tahoma Bold) designed to have identical metrics to the Tahoma font.[6] This was done because Tahoma is available by default on Windows, and many applications expect the font to be available. Before Wine included a Tahoma replacement font, some applications, such as Steam, would not display any text at all, rendering them nearly unusable. [1] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tahoma_(typeface)#Free_replacement -- Andreas Bierfert andreas.bierf...@lowlatency.de signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: wine font changes system look and feel
On 2012/06/04 16:56 (GMT+0200) Andreas Bierfert composed: I guess we can agree that the technical part of font installation etc. is done like it should be. However, it is _not_ the wine-tahoma-fonts package which bullies its way and changes the system look and fell on its own. There are some web-pages which (maybe unintentionally) Intentionally in most cases, because it's widespread, and often copied, but also quite naively. Those who specify Tahoma as a fallback for Verdana really don't understand what they are doing. Virtually no Windows systems with Tahoma installed will not also have Verdana installed. For that to happen someone would need to remove Verdana. Both are part of the Windows OS installation, but not part of a Wine installation. Web pages will always show Verdana on Windows, but on Fedora system with Wine, nothing makes it likely that either Verdana or Tahoma will be used. Wine-Tahoma is very clearly not Tahoma. explicitly request a tahoma font and if you have wine installed - beware - they get what they request. No they don't, unless the same ttf files are installed on those Wine systems as are installed on Windows systems. You argue they do so as a fallback which under 'normal' circumstances should never be used. My question would then be why we do reach this point in the first place. Maybe that is a starting point where we can improve. It happens because: 1-Microsoft's TTF fonts are not in the browser's font path 2-a poor imitation of Tahoma named Tahoma is in the browser's font path 3-Clueless web authors include Tahoma as a fallback to Verdana, which is not part of a standard Wine install, while the Tahoma impostor is As a packager I, however, find it important that for the use-case of wine the best available user experience is provided. Hence this font needs to be included an pulled in by wine like it is today. The second best possible experience can only result if Microsoft's Tahoma font is in the font path. The best would be for Tahoma not to exist at all, and something else be provided by fontconfig when it is requested. Tahoma is a horizontally squished variant of the ugly Verdana, designed for maximum legibility at small sizes, and out of place in any other context. Now the question remains if there is action needed on this issue. As I understand that some users do not like the wine tahoma font, the package as been adopted to disable bitmaps by default and instructions have been added on how to disable the font. Unless Microsoft's Tahoma can be installed as a part of Wine installation, the Wine installation needs somehow to strongly suggest that Microsoft's Tahoma become installed, and note the auto-installed impostor's limitations. -- The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive. Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
