Re: yum upgrade from F17 to F18
Kevin Fenzi wrote: > On Fri, 09 Nov 2012 20:16:50 +0100 > Roberto Ragusa wrote: > >> Serious question: why usrmove is not doable? >> If you have all the dirs in your path, and move executable files from >> one place to another, why should this fail? > > All your dynamic libraries move? If you do the move with a single C/C++ program rather than a shell script, the libraries are already loaded in memory when they move, so it wouldn't be an issue at all. Doing it with a shell script is trickier, but the UsrMove folks actually had that working (with LD_PRELOAD tricks), before it was decided that doing it in dracut was somehow "safer" (which sucks, because it makes the process much less convenient than a simple script or binary to run). > You need selinux relabling? SELinux is evil… > I have been using yum upgrades on some of my machines here for many > years, but there's often a weird broken dep or something I need to > tweak for it to work right, for example: > > * Every release there are a few packages that were removed, so when you > upgrade to the new release you have to remove them yourself. Same with the "supported" upgrade types. Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: yum upgrade from F17 to F18
Am 09.11.2012 23:57, schrieb drago01: > On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 10:23 PM, Reindl Harald wrote: >> >> >> Am 09.11.2012 22:14, schrieb Kevin Fenzi: >>> I think the thing people are missing here is that yum dist upgrades are >>> perfectly fine for advanced users who know how to work around problems >>> and use the tools, but aren't very good for well, everyone else. >> >> yes and no >> >> one real benefit of the yum upgrade is that you get >> the latest updates which are often fixing many bugs >> realized AFTER the release > > So do upgrades done with preupgrade and fedup preupgrade is a blackbox and failed at the one try resulting after retry it only have preupgrade in the boot-menu - this day i learned how to write grub-config by hand and it was the last time touch preupgrade additionally you have NO way to verify grub-config, initramdisk ect. at all becasue you have no control like you have after a yum-upgrade where you can do any cleanups before reboot last but not least: on servers it is unusebale to run a upgrade OFFLINE after 160 upgrades on production servers and around 300 on test-systems the last few years i really do not need anybody explain me again that fedora is not for servers - i know what i am doing, i do not suggest anybody should use it for this, i only suggest "please keep in mind that there is a userbase which is happy and having the knowledge to deal with yum dist-upgrades, please do not break it in future releases" signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: yum upgrade from F17 to F18
On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 10:23 PM, Reindl Harald wrote: > > > Am 09.11.2012 22:14, schrieb Kevin Fenzi: >> I think the thing people are missing here is that yum dist upgrades are >> perfectly fine for advanced users who know how to work around problems >> and use the tools, but aren't very good for well, everyone else. > > yes and no > > one real benefit of the yum upgrade is that you get > the latest updates which are often fixing many bugs > realized AFTER the release So do upgrades done with preupgrade and fedup. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: yum upgrade from F17 to F18
On Fri, 2012-11-09 at 14:14 -0700, Kevin Fenzi wrote: > On Fri, 09 Nov 2012 20:16:50 +0100 > Roberto Ragusa wrote: > > > Serious question: why usrmove is not doable? > > If you have all the dirs in your path, and move executable files from > > one place to another, why should this fail? > > All your dynamic libraries move? You need selinux relabling? > > > I managed to do a 32 bit -> 64 bit transition (you know, the > > "absolutely unsupported" upgrade) on a system which was running an > > entire KDE session. My upgrade commands (rpm, yum, bash, everything > > else) started 32 bit, then were mixed, then ended to be 64 bit. > > Usrmove appears simpler. Am I missing something? > > Would you advise all your friends to do one too? :) > > I think the thing people are missing here is that yum dist upgrades are > perfectly fine for advanced users who know how to work around problems > and use the tools, but aren't very good for well, everyone else. > So, please try and think beyond your personal experiences and out to > all our users? I think having the option of a yum dist-upgrade is > excellent, but I don't think we should officially support it or ask > all our users to do it. I pretty much agree with this, and would go further to say I don't quite see the use case for such a script. I think the kinds of people who ought to be doing yum upgrades are probably going to be happier knowing what each step of the process is going to be, rather than just firing off a Magic Script. I upgrade all my systems using yum all the time, following the instructions on the wiki page, and I'm quite happy with that and would not use a script to do it. But that's just my $0.02 :) -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: yum upgrade from F17 to F18
Am 09.11.2012 22:14, schrieb Kevin Fenzi: > I think the thing people are missing here is that yum dist upgrades are > perfectly fine for advanced users who know how to work around problems > and use the tools, but aren't very good for well, everyone else. yes and no one real benefit of the yum upgrade is that you get the latest updates which are often fixing many bugs realized AFTER the release depending on the hardware/software-combination they may save you while the release version would not boot at all on your hardware that said: "officially supported" is the one thing but keep in mind that it is very important for advanced users to have it working so whatever features are coming in future releases: keep in mind the yum-upgrade with a howto for special steps is needed for many users and setups or you would lose the users at all because they can simply not reinstall/re-configure 10,20,30,40 fedora instances twice each year while i am as exmaple did any fedora upgrade since FC3 with YUM on a lot of setups signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: yum upgrade from F17 to F18
Juan Rodriguez writes: > I did it on a live system, too. The only thing that failed during that time > was postgres (Which managed to stay borked after it was done and f18 > booted, the pg_upgrade method didn't work properly) BZ? regards, tom lane -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: yum upgrade from F17 to F18
On Fri, 09 Nov 2012 20:16:50 +0100 Roberto Ragusa wrote: > Serious question: why usrmove is not doable? > If you have all the dirs in your path, and move executable files from > one place to another, why should this fail? All your dynamic libraries move? You need selinux relabling? > I managed to do a 32 bit -> 64 bit transition (you know, the > "absolutely unsupported" upgrade) on a system which was running an > entire KDE session. My upgrade commands (rpm, yum, bash, everything > else) started 32 bit, then were mixed, then ended to be 64 bit. > Usrmove appears simpler. Am I missing something? Would you advise all your friends to do one too? :) I think the thing people are missing here is that yum dist upgrades are perfectly fine for advanced users who know how to work around problems and use the tools, but aren't very good for well, everyone else. I have been using yum upgrades on some of my machines here for many years, but there's often a weird broken dep or something I need to tweak for it to work right, for example: * Every release there are a few packages that were removed, so when you upgrade to the new release you have to remove them yourself. * The Fedora release that switched to grub2 meant you had to re-install grub, and in the case of /boot on raid, had to repartition it to allow enough space for grub2 to fit. (I managed to do this fine, but I don't think many people would have wanted to). * The display manager re-work meant to you needed to set which DM you wanted etc. Many of these things are covered by the yum upgrade wiki page, but this is not a process many of our users will want to muck with. So, please try and think beyond your personal experiences and out to all our users? I think having the option of a yum dist-upgrade is excellent, but I don't think we should officially support it or ask all our users to do it. kevin signature.asc Description: PGP signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: yum upgrade from F17 to F18
I can't comment on UsrMove because I'm quite unfamiliar with it, but I did manage to upgrade from f17 to f18 using the totally unsupported yum update --releasever --enablerepo="*testing" --nogpgcheck method. Computer booted and everything's exactly as it used to (Though I did have to remove some packages like Calibre because of file conflicts, no big deal). I did it on a live system, too. The only thing that failed during that time was postgres (Which managed to stay borked after it was done and f18 booted, the pg_upgrade method didn't work properly) but other than that and a much more responsive KDE, I can't see any side effects to this method. YMMV, -Nushio On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 1:16 PM, Roberto Ragusa wrote: > On 11/09/2012 10:19 AM, drago01 wrote: > > On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 10:16 AM, Miroslav Suchý > wrote: > >> On 11/08/2012 03:10 PM, Roberto Ragusa wrote: > >>> > >>> Hmm, I now see there is a "set -e" at the beginning. > >>> Still a little scary.:-) > >> > >> > >> Scary is only the idea. And only because we are not used to do rolling > >> upgrades. Ask somebody from Debian experiance if this is scary ;) > > > > There are some upgrade tasks that you simply cannot do from within a > > running system (ex: usermove). > > Serious question: why usrmove is not doable? > If you have all the dirs in your path, and move executable files from one > place to another, why should this fail? > > I managed to do a 32 bit -> 64 bit transition (you know, the "absolutely > unsupported" upgrade) on a system which was running an entire KDE session. > My upgrade commands (rpm, yum, bash, everything else) started 32 bit, > then were mixed, then ended to be 64 bit. > Usrmove appears simpler. Am I missing something? > > -- >Roberto Ragusamail at robertoragusa.it > -- > devel mailing list > devel@lists.fedoraproject.org > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel > -- Ing. Juan M. Rodriguez Moreno Desarrollador de Sistemas Abiertos Sitio: http://proyectofedora.org/mexico -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: yum upgrade from F17 to F18
On 11/09/2012 10:19 AM, drago01 wrote: > On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 10:16 AM, Miroslav Suchý wrote: >> On 11/08/2012 03:10 PM, Roberto Ragusa wrote: >>> >>> Hmm, I now see there is a "set -e" at the beginning. >>> Still a little scary.:-) >> >> >> Scary is only the idea. And only because we are not used to do rolling >> upgrades. Ask somebody from Debian experiance if this is scary ;) > > There are some upgrade tasks that you simply cannot do from within a > running system (ex: usermove). Serious question: why usrmove is not doable? If you have all the dirs in your path, and move executable files from one place to another, why should this fail? I managed to do a 32 bit -> 64 bit transition (you know, the "absolutely unsupported" upgrade) on a system which was running an entire KDE session. My upgrade commands (rpm, yum, bash, everything else) started 32 bit, then were mixed, then ended to be 64 bit. Usrmove appears simpler. Am I missing something? -- Roberto Ragusamail at robertoragusa.it -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: yum upgrade from F17 to F18
On 08.11.2012 15:10, Miroslav Suchý wrote: [1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Upgrading_Fedora_using_yum Nice start, Thank you! I like the scripting (ifs) or even better a rule based (make-like) approach. I will test your script on few instances. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: yum upgrade from F17 to F18
On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 10:16 AM, Miroslav Suchý wrote: > On 11/08/2012 03:10 PM, Roberto Ragusa wrote: >> >> Hmm, I now see there is a "set -e" at the beginning. >> Still a little scary.:-) > > > Scary is only the idea. And only because we are not used to do rolling > upgrades. Ask somebody from Debian experiance if this is scary ;) There are some upgrade tasks that you simply cannot do from within a running system (ex: usermove). -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: yum upgrade from F17 to F18
On 11/08/2012 03:10 PM, Roberto Ragusa wrote: Hmm, I now see there is a "set -e" at the beginning. Still a little scary.:-) Scary is only the idea. And only because we are not used to do rolling upgrades. Ask somebody from Debian experiance if this is scary ;) And honestly, if the upgrade fails, let it be rather on command line in open console, rather then inside of systemd service or inside dracut, where I will have hard time fixing the issue. -- Miroslav Suchy Red Hat Systems Management Engineering -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: yum upgrade from F17 to F18
On 11/08/2012 02:41 PM, "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" wrote: > You should file this as an RFE against yum since arguably this should be the > default behavior when users run "yum upgrade" but since the yum maintainers > have not done that already there has to be some gotcha- you are forgetting The process can fail in a lot of places, so having a script to blindly go ahead is dangerous. I would personally always use a script like this as a sequence of commands to be run by hand. If something happens in the middle of the steps, I have to solve it manually (e.g. removing some external rpm in case of dep problems). Hmm, I now see there is a "set -e" at the beginning. Still a little scary. :-) -- Roberto Ragusamail at robertoragusa.it -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: yum upgrade from F17 to F18
On 11/08/2012 01:10 PM, Miroslav Suchý wrote: Hi, I'm upgrading Fedoras by yum [1] for some time. I know that is not supported method and can have some problems. But the truth is that it was always less error prone as compared to upgrade using Anaconda or preupgrade. Even with upgrade from F16 to F17, which I originally thought would be impossible. But again "yum upgrade" was smoother than preupgrade. As upgrading using yum require to have open wiki and follow steps written there, I decided to automate it and created script fedora-upgrade: https://github.com/xsuchy/fedora-upgrade When run, it will upgrade your Fedora (currently only F17) to Fedora 18 using "yum upgrade". It is first shot, so it is definitely not intended for production systems. But you are very welcome to test it and report problems or just your ideas how to enhance it. I intentionally left this script verbose, to help initial debugging. [1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Upgrading_Fedora_using_yum You should file this as an RFE against yum since arguably this should be the default behavior when users run "yum upgrade" but since the yum maintainers have not done that already there has to be some gotcha- you are forgetting JBG -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
yum upgrade from F17 to F18
Hi, I'm upgrading Fedoras by yum [1] for some time. I know that is not supported method and can have some problems. But the truth is that it was always less error prone as compared to upgrade using Anaconda or preupgrade. Even with upgrade from F16 to F17, which I originally thought would be impossible. But again "yum upgrade" was smoother than preupgrade. As upgrading using yum require to have open wiki and follow steps written there, I decided to automate it and created script fedora-upgrade: https://github.com/xsuchy/fedora-upgrade When run, it will upgrade your Fedora (currently only F17) to Fedora 18 using "yum upgrade". It is first shot, so it is definitely not intended for production systems. But you are very welcome to test it and report problems or just your ideas how to enhance it. I intentionally left this script verbose, to help initial debugging. [1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Upgrading_Fedora_using_yum -- Miroslav Suchy Red Hat Systems Management Engineering -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
