New joyride build 2413

2008-09-10 Thread Build Announcer v2
http://xs-dev.laptop.org/~cscott/olpc/streams/joyride/build2413

Changes in build 2413 from build: 2412

Size delta: -70.91M

-olpc-library-core 1-26

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Re: Expected date for 8.2.0

2008-09-10 Thread [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Regarding WPA support remember you have existing G1G1 users out in  
the wild using WPA plus a new G1G1 is scheduled for November time  
frame. It is also possible that a deployment or two use WPA.

There are suspend related bugs in 8.2-759.
1.) There is a nasty suspend related networking bug that requires a  
hard boot to get working again.
Turn on power management, let the laptop suspend, (screen dims), and  
then close the lid.  Open the lid again and the wireless connectivity  
is dead.  Sometimes you have to repeat the lid closing several times  
to get the network stack dropped.  Seems to happen the quickest if  
you have been using the network for a shared activity such as chat  
for a while. ( Bug does not seem to happen if ohmd is logging).
Once this happens restarting sugar will not revive it.  I have had to  
reboot to get wireless working again.

2.) I noticed in build 757 after opening the lid the system would  
attempt to connect to the last network device it had been connected  
to.  With 759 it looks for a mesh first no matter that you had been  
connected to an AP last.

3.).  If the laptop is in suspend, closing the lid does not turn off  
the backlight.  (I look through the USB port after I close the lid  
and the light is still on.  ).

Robert H.

On Sep 9, 2008, at 4:11 PM, Chris Ball wrote:

 Hi Martin,

 Go for 8.2-759 - that's pretty close to being a release candidate,
 and it's fairly good. Two things that hit mainstream usage and are
 being worked on: bad WPA support, odd Out-of-memory situations -
 activities get a kill -9 without so much as a pardon me.

 I don't think we have anyone working on better WPA support, but I  
 might
 be wrong -- if this is important to you, make sure to let Greg know  
 you
 think someone should be tackling it as a release blocker.

 (Current 8.2 blockers:  http://dev.laptop.org/report/32.)

 - Chris.
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Re: Stability and Memory Pressure in 8.2

2008-09-10 Thread Marco Pesenti Gritti
On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 4:29 AM, Gary C Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 OK, news is not great on the Activity front...

 SUMMARY: 759 vs 711 each Activity instance in 759 consumes an average
 of 1Mb more memory than the same Activity running in 711, with
 Write-57 reportedly taking significantly more than that (perhaps ~7Mb).

 Is top and/or ps memory usage calculated in the same way between these
 builds? Could make collecting real data pretty painful.

Unfortunately not, there has been changes in the kernel. My
understanding is that private memory will be the same, while
calculation of shared memory has changed. Riccardo has a new kernel
somewhere with instructions on how to install it on 711. That should
make the memory usage comparable.

Marco
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Re: Stability and Memory Pressure in 8.2

2008-09-10 Thread Marco Pesenti Gritti
On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 4:29 AM, Gary C Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Well, I was hoping to see the numbers go the other way with the
 rainbow fork trick sharing more module code between Activities. Could
 be worse I guess – I should also test opening N instances of the same
 Activity and see which way memory usage has moved in that scenario.

Now that's worrying. Could you try to disable security (remove
/etc/olpc-security)? That will kill the rainbow trick and comparing
data should tell us if it's helping  memory at all.

Marco
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New joyride build 2414

2008-09-10 Thread Build Announcer v2
http://xs-dev.laptop.org/~cscott/olpc/streams/joyride/build2414

Changes in build 2414 from build: 2413

Size delta: 0.13M

-yum 3.2.17-2.fc9
+yum 3.2.19-3.fc9

--- Changes for yum 3.2.19-3.fc9 from 3.2.17-2.fc9 ---
  + add patch to fix yum install name.arch matching
  + add patch to fix mash's parser use.
  + 3.2.19
  + 3.2.18

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Re: Expected date for 8.2.0

2008-09-10 Thread Chris Ball
Hi Robert, thanks for the notes.

Regarding WPA support remember you have existing G1G1 users out in
the wild using WPA plus a new G1G1 is scheduled for November time
frame. It is also possible that a deployment or two use WPA.

We aren't going to ship without WPA support, but we also aren't working
on improvements to the WPA support we already have.

There are suspend related bugs in 8.2-759.  1.) There is a nasty
suspend related networking bug that requires a hard boot to get
working again.  Turn on power management, let the laptop suspend,
(screen dims), and then close the lid.  Open the lid again and the
wireless connectivity is dead.  Sometimes you have to repeat the
lid closing several times to get the network stack dropped.  Seems
to happen the quickest if you have been using the network for a
shared activity such as chat for a while. ( Bug does not seem to
happen if ohmd is logging).  Once this happens restarting sugar
will not revive it.  I have had to reboot to get wireless working
again.

This is #8103, which is fixed in Joyride and will be fixed in 8.2-760
when that's built.

2.) I noticed in build 757 after opening the lid the system would
attempt to connect to the last network device it had been connected
to.  With 759 it looks for a mesh first no matter that you had been
connected to an AP last.

It will try the previous AP again, but it'll first cycle through the
mesh channels looking for a school server.  This was a request from
deployment, to make sure that when a laptop arrives from home to school
it finds the school server there.  The cycle time is unfortunately long:
over a minute.  If it's enough of an inconvenience, we might consider
some mechanism (perhaps a networks.cfg entry) for saying I don't care
about connecting to mesh networks automatically, always prefer APs.

3.).  If the laptop is in suspend, closing the lid does not turn
off the backlight.  (I look through the USB port after I close the
lid and the light is still on.  ).

This is #8137, and is unlikely to be fixed in time for 8.2.0; the
workaround is to either wake the machine before closing the lid, or to
open and close the lid after the lid close that didn't trigger sleep.

- Chris.
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Re: Stability and Memory Pressure in 8.2

2008-09-10 Thread John Gilmore
When measuring memory usage, cat /proc/XXX/smaps provides the most
accurate info available (as far as I know), and produces directly
comparable results in all OLPC software releases.  XXX is the process
number you're examining (first column of ps output).

The smaps file also tells you how many of the pages in each allocation
are actually *resident* in memory at this instant; how many are
uniquely used by this process (versus shared with other processes);
and how many of them are *dirty* (written by the process).  It also
includes the info that the pmap command produces (from /proc/XXX/maps).

E.g. part of the output for the sugar-shell process includes:

b6094000-b6101000 r-xp  1f:00 3391   /usr/lib/libcairo.so.2.17.5
Size:436 kB
Rss: 244 kB
Pss:  70 kB
Shared_Clean:244 kB
Shared_Dirty:  0 kB
Private_Clean: 0 kB
Private_Dirty: 0 kB
Referenced:  244 kB
b6101000-b6103000 rw-p 0006d000 1f:00 3391   /usr/lib/libcairo.so.2.17.5
Size:  8 kB
Rss:   8 kB
Pss:   8 kB
Shared_Clean:  0 kB
Shared_Dirty:  0 kB
Private_Clean: 0 kB
Private_Dirty: 8 kB
Referenced:8 kB

This says that there are two parts of the libcairo shared library
mapped into the process's address space.  One is 436 kB and is
readable and executable (it's the code segment).  Of that 436k, 244k
is currently resident in memory (Rss), all of that 244k is shared with
other processes and is clean (not written to).  The second part of
libcairo is only 8k bytes long, it's read/write and not executable
(it's the data segment and the BSS segment), all 8k has been read into
RAM, all 8k is private (not shared with other processes) and dirty
(has been modified by the process).  There's a lot more info in there
too, such as what virtual addresses these things are mapped into, and
from what offset within the file.  The size, nm, and objdump -h
commands from yum install binutils will help you compare these
offsets back into the compiler output and thus into the source code.

Dirty memory is particularly pernicious on the XO, since the XO has
nowhere to keep it except in RAM.  On normal Linux systems, when dirty
pages are not expected to be used again soon, they can be paged out to
the swap space on disk.  On the XO, which has no swap space, those
pages burn up RAM permanently, even if the process goes to sleep for a
year and never wakes up again.  The dirty memory is released only when
the process exits (or when the process explicitly unmaps it, which
seldom happens).  These long-term dirty pages produce more memory
pressure (less available memory) for all the other processes that are
actually active and getting work done for the user.

When a Linux system gets memory pressure, it tosses out whatever it
can to swap space (nothing, on the XO) and then it starts throwing
away pages that it knows it can later re-read from the file system.
The resident, clean pages that are mapped from files are what get
thrown away (like the first segment of libcairo above).  When the XO
runs low on memory, this means that it throws away a lot of pages
containing executable code.  If the code on those pages is
subsequently executed, those pages will be read back in from the file
system.  Note that reading in a 4k page from the JFFS2 compressed
filesystem is not a cheap operation; a lot of system CPU time goes
into decompressing it (compared to an ordinary Linux system with a
hard disk and an ext3 filesystem).  Throwing away code pages and then
immediately reading them back in again, over and over, thrashing,
may be why the XO gets very slow when memory is tight.

It may be possible and useful to store some commonly used executables
and shared libraries as uncompressed files in jffs2, making them much
faster to page back in from Flash.  Nobody has tried doing this, as
far as I know.

I don't know how to instrument the kernel virtual memory subsystem to
gain visibility into which pages are being discarded when, and which
are being read in later.  I think that info would be extremely useful
for debugging 8.2's low-memory hangs.  Thrashing would become obvious
if you see the same pages being read in over and over.  Of course,
when the machine is thrashing, it's hard to see any output from its
kernel...

John
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Re: Stability and Memory Pressure in 8.2

2008-09-10 Thread Tomeu Vizoso
On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 11:53 AM, John Gilmore [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 It may be possible and useful to store some commonly used executables
 and shared libraries as uncompressed files in jffs2, making them much
 faster to page back in from Flash.  Nobody has tried doing this, as
 far as I know.

Please, I would love to see this as well...

Thanks,

Tomeu
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Re: AC not present?

2008-09-10 Thread John Gilmore
 I know I've said this before, but I really want to get some UI polish
 into this part of the system.  Instead of the cryptic AC not present
 we should be displaying a fullscreen graphic picturing the power cord...

A better fix was implemented a while ago.  In the old firmware that
caused this bug report, it refused to boot when there's new firmware
in the filesystem, but no external power.  Modern firmware merely
defers updating itself, and then goes on to boot Linux as usual.

I suspect that pretty-boot users won't even see modern firmware's No
external power message; it'll just boot up as always.

John
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Re: Stability and Memory Pressure in 8.2

2008-09-10 Thread Tomeu Vizoso
On Tue, Sep 9, 2008 at 6:10 AM, Michael Stone [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  * We need to check carefully for memory-leaks. Three mechanisms which
occur to me include:

Looks like we have regressed on http://dev.laptop.org/ticket/5532 .
Just entered http://dev.laptop.org/ticket/8394 because most of the
details on the older ticket aren't relevant any more. It contains a
fix.

This means we leak 20KB per buddy, so 10 buddies appearing per hour
would match with Paul's observations.

We should setup automated tests and check if we still leak, how we
could resource this?

Regards,

Tomeu
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Re: Stability and Memory Pressure in 8.2

2008-09-10 Thread riccardo
On Wed, 2008-09-10 at 09:15 +0200, Marco Pesenti Gritti wrote:
 On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 4:29 AM, Gary C Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  OK, news is not great on the Activity front...
 
  SUMMARY: 759 vs 711 each Activity instance in 759 consumes an average
  of 1Mb more memory than the same Activity running in 711, with
  Write-57 reportedly taking significantly more than that (perhaps ~7Mb).
 
  Is top and/or ps memory usage calculated in the same way between these
  builds? Could make collecting real data pretty painful.
 
 Unfortunately not, there has been changes in the kernel. My
 understanding is that private memory will be the same, while
 calculation of shared memory has changed. Riccardo has a new kernel
 somewhere with instructions on how to install it on 711. That should
 make the memory usage comparable.
 
 Marco

I used this newer kernel (as it accounts also for pss) for measurements
with ps_mem on build 703:
http://dev.laptop.org/~rlucchese/utils/703/kernel-2.6.25-20080501.3.olpc.231c7b715f4a8d0.i586.rpm

It can be installed on the xo with:
$ rpm -ivh kernel-rpm
$ cp -a /boot/* /versions/boot/current/boot/

You will also have to update the ram disk image; you can follow the 
instructions at the bottom of
http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Kernel_Building


You may also want to try this patched ps_mem (shows pids and doesn't group 
entries by process name):
http://dev.laptop.org/~rlucchese/utils/ps_mem.py


riccardo


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Re: Stability and Memory Pressure in 8.2

2008-09-10 Thread James Cameron
I had a few hours look at the second largest process, the journal
activity, on Joyride 2412.

VmPeak:40440 kB
VmSize:40436 kB
VmLck: 0 kB
VmHWM: 28824 kB
VmRSS: 28824 kB
VmData:11632 kB
VmStk:   172 kB
VmExe: 4 kB
VmLib: 21992 kB
VmPTE:48 kB

so it costs 29Mb or so of RSS, most of which is presumably shared.

This is confirmed by smaps, which showed 9Mb or so used by heap.  That
was the main memory cost, so I concentrated on it.  It was the largest
Private_Dirty.

0824f000-08be9000 rw-p 0824f000 00:00 0  [heap]
Size:   9832 kB
Rss:9608 kB
Pss:9608 kB
Shared_Clean:  0 kB
Shared_Dirty:  0 kB
Private_Clean: 0 kB
Private_Dirty:  9608 kB
Referenced: 9608 kB

For a while I tried working with /proc/$PID/mem until I figured it just
would not work, always got ESRCH on read(2), and mem_read showed I could
only do it to processes that are children of my process.  Odd, so
abandoned that method.

Then I used gdb to generate-core-file and wander through the heap memory
to get an idea of what it might contain.  I did not make a complete
analysis.  I need to learn more about the heap structures before I do
so.

But I did notice one odd thing that I wasn't fully aware of until now
... the byte-code of the built-in modules was present, complete with doc
strings ... for example;

(gdb) x/4bs 0x824f78c
0x824f78c:   int(x[, base]) - integer\n\nConvert a string or
number to an integer, if possible.  A floating point\nargument will be
truncated towards zero (this does not include a string\nrepresentation
of a floating...
0x824f854:point number!)  When converting a string, use\nthe
optional base.  It is an error to supply a base when converting
a\nnon-string. If the argument is outside the integer range a long
object\nwill be retu...
0x824f91c:   rned instead.
0x824f92a:   

and not just once, twice:

$ strings journal.core |grep supply a base when converting
the optional base.  It is an error to supply a base when converting a
the optional base.  It is an error to supply a base when converting a

Has anyone got an idea of how to measure the heap by usage?

-- 
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Re: Stability and Memory Pressure in 8.2

2008-09-10 Thread pgf
tomeu wrote:
  On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 2:05 PM, James Cameron [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
   Has anyone got an idea of how to measure the heap by usage?
  
  Not from outside python, but from inside we are using heapy:
  
  http://guppy-pe.sourceforge.net/

i started down that path yesterday afternoon, and realized that it
wasn't clear to me how i needed to invoke it.  it seems to want
to be imported before you start the rest of your program, which
sort of forces you into interactive mode.  is that your understanding?
i had been hoping to be able to attach to the sugar shell process,
in the way one might do with gdb.  perhaps that's not possible.

btw, i continued doing monitoring of the machines i had running:
i need to look again after they've been running overnight when i
get to the office, but the growth i was seeing may be network related,
as tomeu suggested yesterday.  (i had at least one case of no growth
at all when i had disabled the wireless.)

paul
=-
 paul fox, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: Expected date for 8.2.0

2008-09-10 Thread Chris Marshall
Chris Ball wrote:
 Hi Robert, thanks for the notes.

 2.) I noticed in build 757 after opening the lid the system would
 attempt to connect to the last network device it had been connected
 to.  With 759 it looks for a mesh first no matter that you had been
 connected to an AP last.

 It will try the previous AP again, but it'll first cycle through the
 mesh channels looking for a school server.  This was a request from
 deployment, to make sure that when a laptop arrives from home to school
 it finds the school server there.  The cycle time is unfortunately long:
 over a minute.  If it's enough of an inconvenience, we might consider
 some mechanism (perhaps a networks.cfg entry) for saying I don't care
 about connecting to mesh networks automatically, always prefer APs.
   

As a G1G1 user/doner, I think having a setting (control panel?) that 
would check the
last connection used first is key for G1G1 v2.  I've been working with 
my XO for 9 months
now and I still think it is broken when it comes out of suspend and 
can't get to the
network for all the mesh check...  To new G1G1 users, it will just seem 
broken.

Also, what happened to the white circle around the network circle in the 
Neighborhood
to indicate which was connected?  I liked that visual confirmation.  Now 
you have to
manually check to see if you are connected.  Maybe the frame could flash 
open and closed
when the network connects?
 3.).  If the laptop is in suspend, closing the lid does not turn
 off the backlight.  (I look through the USB port after I close the
 lid and the light is still on.  ).

 This is #8137, and is unlikely to be fixed in time for 8.2.0; the
 workaround is to either wake the machine before closing the lid, or to
 open and close the lid after the lid close that didn't trigger sleep.

 - Chris.
   

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Re: Expected date for 8.2.0

2008-09-10 Thread Bastien
Chris Marshall [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Also, what happened to the white circle around the network circle in
 the Neighborhood to indicate which was connected?  I liked that visual
 confirmation.  

+1

-- 
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Re: Libertas firmware on F9 for the XS

2008-09-10 Thread Ricardo Carrano
Hi Martin,


On 9/9/08, Martin Langhoff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 1:40 PM, Michail Bletsas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  - F9 libertas-usb8388-firmware-5.111.20.p49-1
  - F9/XO (8.2-759) libertas-usb8388-firmware-5.111.22.p18-1

  You are definitely better off using 5.110.22.p18

 With my release-manager hat on: can I have more info to help me decide?

 I just checked and the firmware on the last F7-based build was 20.p49,
 same as F9, so staying with it means I am dealing with a known
 quantity...

  - is there a good changelog between 20.p49 and 22.p18 ?
  - with 20.p49 the AA dies overnight, does 22.p18 fix this?
  - any notes from stability testing done with 22.p18?

 cheers,


The release notes can be acessed here:
http://www.laptop.org/teamwiki/index.php/Tech:FW_8388_RELEASE_NOTES

22.p18 is the current version in joyride. Anything older than 22.p14
is not recommended at all (quite the opposite).

Cheers!
Ricardo
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Re: Stability and Memory Pressure in 8.2

2008-09-10 Thread riccardo
Paul, 

On Wed, 2008-09-10 at 08:18 -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 tomeu wrote:
   On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 2:05 PM, James Cameron [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   
Has anyone got an idea of how to measure the heap by usage?
   
   Not from outside python, but from inside we are using heapy:
   
   http://guppy-pe.sourceforge.net/
 
 i started down that path yesterday afternoon, and realized that it
 wasn't clear to me how i needed to invoke it.  it seems to want
 to be imported before you start the rest of your program, which
 sort of forces you into interactive mode.  is that your understanding?
 i had been hoping to be able to attach to the sugar shell process,
 in the way one might do with gdb.  perhaps that's not possible.
 

There is kick-start tutorial on how to use heapy's remote monitor at the
56th page of http://guppy-pe.sourceforge.net/heapy-thesis.pdf

For the shell I use to put `import guppy.heapy.RM' before any other
import statement in main.py.

riccardo

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Re: Expected date for 8.2.0

2008-09-10 Thread Eben Eliason
On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 3:38 AM, Chris Ball [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Hi Robert, thanks for the notes.

Regarding WPA support remember you have existing G1G1 users out in
the wild using WPA plus a new G1G1 is scheduled for November time
frame. It is also possible that a deployment or two use WPA.

 We aren't going to ship without WPA support, but we also aren't working
 on improvements to the WPA support we already have.

There are suspend related bugs in 8.2-759.  1.) There is a nasty
suspend related networking bug that requires a hard boot to get
working again.  Turn on power management, let the laptop suspend,
(screen dims), and then close the lid.  Open the lid again and the
wireless connectivity is dead.  Sometimes you have to repeat the
lid closing several times to get the network stack dropped.  Seems
to happen the quickest if you have been using the network for a
shared activity such as chat for a while. ( Bug does not seem to
happen if ohmd is logging).  Once this happens restarting sugar
will not revive it.  I have had to reboot to get wireless working
again.

 This is #8103, which is fixed in Joyride and will be fixed in 8.2-760
 when that's built.

2.) I noticed in build 757 after opening the lid the system would
attempt to connect to the last network device it had been connected
to.  With 759 it looks for a mesh first no matter that you had been
connected to an AP last.

 It will try the previous AP again, but it'll first cycle through the
 mesh channels looking for a school server.  This was a request from
 deployment, to make sure that when a laptop arrives from home to school
 it finds the school server there.  The cycle time is unfortunately long:
 over a minute.  If it's enough of an inconvenience, we might consider
 some mechanism (perhaps a networks.cfg entry) for saying I don't care
 about connecting to mesh networks automatically, always prefer APs.

I already have a design in mind for this, which came out of the need
to reset the network config nonsense. The intended design there is
not just a clear button which wipes the file, but an ordered list
which allows one to see the preferred networks, and reorder them in a
list in the order in which connection should be attempted.  At the
time I brought up this design, I also offered that we should add a
special item to the list representing the Mesh, so that it would be
possible to reorder the mesh connection attempts as well.  It would
likely be at the top by default, of course, but could be moved to the
bottom of the list.

- Eben

3.).  If the laptop is in suspend, closing the lid does not turn
off the backlight.  (I look through the USB port after I close the
lid and the light is still on.  ).

 This is #8137, and is unlikely to be fixed in time for 8.2.0; the
 workaround is to either wake the machine before closing the lid, or to
 open and close the lid after the lid close that didn't trigger sleep.

 - Chris.
 --
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Re: Expected date for 8.2.0

2008-09-10 Thread Eben Eliason
We removed that for two reasons.  First, as an indicator it was
actually really subtle; it didn't grab attention.  Second, it
effectively stripped the identity of the server itself, since each AP
is identified by a pair of colors.  Removing the stroke color made it
unclear which AP was which.

We feel confident in removing this indicator thanks to the new design
for the Frame (which includes devices), since it's just as easy
(actually, less inconvenient) to reveal the Frame to see quickly and
unambiguously which, if any, AP is connected.

We intend to have better confirmation upon success or failure of AP
connections in the near future.

- Eben


On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 8:20 AM, Bastien [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Chris Marshall [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Also, what happened to the white circle around the network circle in
 the Neighborhood to indicate which was connected?  I liked that visual
 confirmation.

 +1

 --
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Re: Stability and Memory Pressure in 8.2

2008-09-10 Thread Tomeu Vizoso
On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 2:37 PM, riccardo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Paul,

 On Wed, 2008-09-10 at 08:18 -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 tomeu wrote:
   On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 2:05 PM, James Cameron [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
Has anyone got an idea of how to measure the heap by usage?
  
   Not from outside python, but from inside we are using heapy:
  
   http://guppy-pe.sourceforge.net/

 i started down that path yesterday afternoon, and realized that it
 wasn't clear to me how i needed to invoke it.  it seems to want
 to be imported before you start the rest of your program, which
 sort of forces you into interactive mode.  is that your understanding?
 i had been hoping to be able to attach to the sugar shell process,
 in the way one might do with gdb.  perhaps that's not possible.


 There is kick-start tutorial on how to use heapy's remote monitor at the
 56th page of http://guppy-pe.sourceforge.net/heapy-thesis.pdf

 For the shell I use to put `import guppy.heapy.RM' before any other
 import statement in main.py.

Another pointer:

http://guppy-pe.sourceforge.net/heapy_Use.html#heapykinds.Use.monitor

Other ways of using guppy are logging out periodically the heap with
gobject.timeout_add or patching keyhandler.py to print the heap (or a
diff of it) when a key combination is pressed.

Regards,

Tomeu
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Re: Expected date for 8.2.0

2008-09-10 Thread Walter Bender
Are we still so wedded to the purity of circles? Simply changing the
shape of the icon once a connection is made would go a long way. Maybe
morph into a star? or a sun? Or add the ubiquitous parens around the
icon a la the indicator light? None of these would adversely impact
the color-ID scheme.

-walter

On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 8:44 AM, Eben Eliason [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 We removed that for two reasons.  First, as an indicator it was
 actually really subtle; it didn't grab attention.  Second, it
 effectively stripped the identity of the server itself, since each AP
 is identified by a pair of colors.  Removing the stroke color made it
 unclear which AP was which.

 We feel confident in removing this indicator thanks to the new design
 for the Frame (which includes devices), since it's just as easy
 (actually, less inconvenient) to reveal the Frame to see quickly and
 unambiguously which, if any, AP is connected.

 We intend to have better confirmation upon success or failure of AP
 connections in the near future.

 - Eben


 On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 8:20 AM, Bastien [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Chris Marshall [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Also, what happened to the white circle around the network circle in
 the Neighborhood to indicate which was connected?  I liked that visual
 confirmation.

 +1

 --
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Re: Expected date for 8.2.0

2008-09-10 Thread david
On Wed, 10 Sep 2008, Chris Ball wrote:

2.) I noticed in build 757 after opening the lid the system would
attempt to connect to the last network device it had been connected
to.  With 759 it looks for a mesh first no matter that you had been
connected to an AP last.

 It will try the previous AP again, but it'll first cycle through the
 mesh channels looking for a school server.  This was a request from
 deployment, to make sure that when a laptop arrives from home to school
 it finds the school server there.  The cycle time is unfortunately long:
 over a minute.  If it's enough of an inconvenience, we might consider
 some mechanism (perhaps a networks.cfg entry) for saying I don't care
 about connecting to mesh networks automatically, always prefer APs.

can't you look for both at the same time? just use whichever responds 
first. it's not likely that you will have the AP and a school server in 
range at the same time.

David Lang
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Re: Stability and Memory Pressure in 8.2

2008-09-10 Thread david
On Wed, 10 Sep 2008, Tomeu Vizoso wrote:

 On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 11:53 AM, John Gilmore [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 It may be possible and useful to store some commonly used executables
 and shared libraries as uncompressed files in jffs2, making them much
 faster to page back in from Flash.  Nobody has tried doing this, as
 far as I know.

 Please, I would love to see this as well...

not for this release, but would the axfs be an option in the future with 
it's execute in place capability for key files? or is the performance 
difference compared to ram such that you wouldn't want it in any case?

either way, the profiling it does of which pages are used (and how much) 
could be useful in figuring out what binaries should be stored 
uncompressed.

David Lang
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Re: Expected date for 8.2.0

2008-09-10 Thread pgf
eben wrote:
  We removed that for two reasons.  First, as an indicator it was
  actually really subtle; it didn't grab attention.  Second, it
  effectively stripped the identity of the server itself, since each AP
  is identified by a pair of colors.  Removing the stroke color made it
  unclear which AP was which.
  
  We feel confident in removing this indicator thanks to the new design
  for the Frame (which includes devices), since it's just as easy
  (actually, less inconvenient) to reveal the Frame to see quickly and
  unambiguously which, if any, AP is connected.

i don't see how requiring keyboard/mouse interaction is less
inconvenient than simply looking at the screen.  we already
distinguish various circles with little ornaments or bulls-eye
rings.  surely one more style wouldn't be terrible.  remember
that one usually already knows which AP is expected to be connected --
it's the one that was just clicked on, or which was clicked on 
yesterday.  finding it on the screen isn't an issue.  (well, maybe
at 1cc it is, but not in the average setting.)  (also, having the network
icon in the frame is important when you're not on the network view,
and not when you are.)

paul
=-
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Re: Stability and Memory Pressure in 8.2

2008-09-10 Thread pgf
tomeu wrote:
  On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 2:37 PM, riccardo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   Paul,
  
   On Wed, 2008-09-10 at 08:18 -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   i started down that path yesterday afternoon, and realized that it
   wasn't clear to me how i needed to invoke it.  it seems to want
   to be imported before you start the rest of your program, which
   sort of forces you into interactive mode.  is that your understanding?
   i had been hoping to be able to attach to the sugar shell process,
   in the way one might do with gdb.  perhaps that's not possible.
  
  
   There is kick-start tutorial on how to use heapy's remote monitor at the
   56th page of http://guppy-pe.sourceforge.net/heapy-thesis.pdf
  
   For the shell I use to put `import guppy.heapy.RM' before any other
   import statement in main.py.
  
  Another pointer:
  
  http://guppy-pe.sourceforge.net/heapy_Use.html#heapykinds.Use.monitor
  
  Other ways of using guppy are logging out periodically the heap with
  gobject.timeout_add or patching keyhandler.py to print the heap (or a
  diff of it) when a key combination is pressed.

thank you for both of those pointers.

paul
=-
 paul fox, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [Server-devel] Update ejabberd package

2008-09-10 Thread Guillaume Desmottes
Le mercredi 10 septembre 2008 à 11:14 +1200, Martin Langhoff a écrit :
 On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 1:28 AM, Guillaume Desmottes
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  As mentioned few weeks ago, I created an updated version of the ejabberd
  XS package.
 
 Excellent. I'll give it a spin asap, now that the F9 based XS is in
 better shape.

Cool!

  This package still suffers shared roster bugs but after lot of tests
  they appear to be upstream problems and should not be a regression
  comparing to the current package.
 
  I think it would be worth to consider inclusion of this new package to
  XS for wider testing.
 
 Can you give me a bit of info on how much you've tested it internally.
 Also, I'll be looking for hints on how to use Daf's new testing tools
 effectively... (any links, clues...?)

Didn't test it that much yet as Daf is still working on the test tools.
I just moved to our Cambridge office so I'll be able to help Sjoerd and
Daf on the test bed.
I'll let you know as soon we have test results.

FYI, I'm working on #5310 and hope to have a package creating
automatically the shared roster soon.


G.


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recognizing a previous connection

2008-09-10 Thread Mikus Grinbergs
When there has been an unconnected period (e.g., while suspended), 
the question has been discussed as to WHICH connection ought the 
system be trying to re-establish.  I agree with those who would like 
the 'most recent connection' to be tried first, unless the user has 
explicitly indicated some other preference.


But my chief reason for posting this is to point out the difference 
between an education environment for OLPC users, and a G1G1 
environment for OLPC users.  The whole design of Network Manager 
seems to be aimed at the former -- connect to the *same* school 
server all the time;  if it is out of reach, connect to the *same* 
set of buddies (e.g., via mesh).

As a G1G1 user, I tend to carry my XO with me.  So at 7am I might 
use it at home;  at 10am at the office during a break;  at noon at a 
lunch spot,  etc., etc.   Meaning that continually this XO needs to 
be connected to a *different* AP.  [And I don't like to just erase 
networks.cfg -- there might be values held there that I might not 
want to re-type manually when I next need to use a particular AP.]

To me, the G1G1 environment is characterized by NOT using the same 
connection each time.  Please don't make it cumbersome to switch APs


mikus

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Re: Expected date for 8.2.0

2008-09-10 Thread Martin Dengler
On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 03:09:46PM +0200, Bert Freudenberg wrote:
 
 Am 10.09.2008 um 14:52 schrieb Walter Bender:
 
  Or add the ubiquitous parens around the
  icon a la the indicator light?

 That's *exactly* what I was thinking :)

A halo/parens could look really nice.

 - Bert -

Martin


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Re: recognizing a previous connection

2008-09-10 Thread Martin Dengler
On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 09:25:57AM -0400, Mikus Grinbergs wrote:
 To me, the G1G1 environment is characterized by NOT using the same 
 connection each time.  Please don't make it cumbersome to switch APs

AFAIK, NetworkManager should Just Do This every time you return to
within range of an AP to which you've previously associated
successfully.  It's possibly because we have the Simple Mesh step
that can always succeed, and that NM won't switch away from that, that
we cen the current behavior.  Perhaps in NM 0.7 this can be improved.

 mikus

Martin


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New update.1 build 714

2008-09-10 Thread Build Announcer v2
http://pilgrim.laptop.org/~pilgrim/olpc/streams/update.1/build714

Changes in build 714 from build: 713

Size delta: 0.00M

-bootfw q2e15-1.olpc2.unsigned
+bootfw q2e17-1.olpc2.unsigned

--- Changes for bootfw q2e17-1.olpc2.unsigned from q2e15-1.olpc2.unsigned ---
  + trac #8379 - fixed pretty boot (recently broken)
  + Fixup ext3 write support
  + Add 2 column display to the mfg-data dump

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Re: recognizing a previous connection

2008-09-10 Thread [EMAIL PROTECTED]
It is my understanding that deployments with larger schools will be  
using WAPs and possibly some active antennas (currently a shortage
  of these).  These large schools are more like the G1G1 situation as  
the pupil moves from one area of the school to another they may  
connect to another AP.
I have informed a person involved with deployment at large schools of  
this thread (and the other thread). I am hoping they will respond  
with information about the wireless topography.

On Sep 10, 2008, at 6:25 AM, Mikus Grinbergs wrote:

 When there has been an unconnected period (e.g., while suspended),
 the question has been discussed as to WHICH connection ought the
 system be trying to re-establish.  I agree with those who would like
 the 'most recent connection' to be tried first, unless the user has
 explicitly indicated some other preference.


 But my chief reason for posting this is to point out the difference
 between an education environment for OLPC users, and a G1G1
 environment for OLPC users.  The whole design of Network Manager
 seems to be aimed at the former -- connect to the *same* school
 server all the time;  if it is out of reach, connect to the *same*
 set of buddies (e.g., via mesh).

 As a G1G1 user, I tend to carry my XO with me.  So at 7am I might
 use it at home;  at 10am at the office during a break;  at noon at a
 lunch spot,  etc., etc.   Meaning that continually this XO needs to
 be connected to a *different* AP.  [And I don't like to just erase
 networks.cfg -- there might be values held there that I might not
 want to re-type manually when I next need to use a particular AP.]

 To me, the G1G1 environment is characterized by NOT using the same
 connection each time.  Please don't make it cumbersome to switch APs


 mikus

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Re: Current 8.2 and joyride ext3 builds unusable

2008-09-10 Thread Ton van Overbeek
C. Scott Ananian wrote:
 working on it.
  --scott
   

Just to tell that ext3 builds are working again since joyride-2413.
Now hope it is the same for the next 8.2 build.
Thanks Scott for fixing this in less than one day !!

Ton van Overbeek
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Re: Stability and Memory Pressure in 8.2

2008-09-10 Thread Michael Stone
On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 02:13:24PM +0200, Tomeu Vizoso wrote:
Not from outside python, but from inside we are using heapy:

http://guppy-pe.sourceforge.net/

Tomeu already published some guppy RPMs but here is a git repo with
pacakging instructions (Makefiles) should you wish to make any changes.

   http://dev.laptop.org/git/users/mstone/heapy

(Look for the $(TARBALL) rule in Makefile.fedora if you want to change
anything; that Makefile is configured to pull directly from PyPI...)

Michael

  
Here are the resulting RPMs:  

http://dev.laptop.org/~mstone/releases/RPMS/guppy-0.1.8-1.fc9.i386.rpm
http://dev.laptop.org/~mstone/releases/RPMS/guppy-debuginfo-0.1.8-1.fc9.i386.rpm
http://dev.laptop.org/~mstone/releases/SRPMS/guppy-0.1.8-1.fc9.src.rpm

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Outage Notification - 2008-09-13 01:00 UTC

2008-09-10 Thread Dennis Gilmore
There will be an outage starting at Y2008-09-13 01:00 UTC, which will
last approximately 1 hour.

To convert UTC to your local time, take a look at
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/UTCHowto
or run:

date -d '2008-09-13 01:00 UTC'

Affected Services:
Buildsystem

Unaffected Services:
Websites
Database
CVS / Source Control
DNS
Mail
Torrent


Ticket Link:
https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-infrastructure/ticket/830

Reason for Outage:
update koji to 1.2.6.  it will enable us to turn garbage collection back on.

Contact Information:

Please join #fedora-admin in irc.freenode.net or respond to this email
to track
the status of this outage.



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Re: Stability and Memory Pressure in 8.2

2008-09-10 Thread Nate Ridderman
My layman's understanding is that you can't execute in place from the NAND
flash on the XO. XIP requires NOR flash which is more expensive than NAND
but has faster read speeds. It mentions this briefly on the axfs FAQ.

Storing some executables and libraries in a separate uncompressed partition
seems more plausible, but I can't speculate on the system performance
impact.

Thanks,
Nate

On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 9:38 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 On Wed, 10 Sep 2008, Tomeu Vizoso wrote:

  On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 11:53 AM, John Gilmore [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  It may be possible and useful to store some commonly used executables
  and shared libraries as uncompressed files in jffs2, making them much
  faster to page back in from Flash.  Nobody has tried doing this, as
  far as I know.
 
  Please, I would love to see this as well...

 not for this release, but would the axfs be an option in the future with
 it's execute in place capability for key files? or is the performance
 difference compared to ram such that you wouldn't want it in any case?

 either way, the profiling it does of which pages are used (and how much)
 could be useful in figuring out what binaries should be stored
 uncompressed.

 David Lang
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Automatic power management disabled in control panel

2008-09-10 Thread Christoph Derndorfer
Hi all,

upgraded to 2414 and realized that the auto power management checkbox in the
sugar control panel is unchecked even though the XO seems to show a regular
power management behavior. Is this a bug or am I missing something here
(e.g. auto power management being a different mode to what's the default
setting)?

Thanks,
Christoph

-- 
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url: www.olpcnews.com
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: Automatic power management disabled in control panel

2008-09-10 Thread Ton van Overbeek
Christoph Derndorfer wrote:
 Hi all,

 upgraded to 2414 and realized that the auto power management checkbox 
 in the sugar control panel is unchecked even though the XO seems to 
 show a regular power management behavior. Is this a bug or am I 
 missing something here (e.g. auto power management being a different 
 mode to what's the default setting)?

 Thanks,
 Christoph

It is a known bug. Do not know if it is in trac.
In the 8.2 builds power management (= suspend on idle) is off at boot, 
i.e. sugar control panels checkbox  matches the reality.
Turning it on via the control panel works fine in 8.2.

Ton van Overbeek
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Re: Automatic power management disabled in control panel

2008-09-10 Thread Chris Ball
Hi,

Hi all, upgraded to 2414 and realized that the auto power
management checkbox in the sugar control panel is unchecked even
though the XO seems to show a regular power management behavior. Is
this a bug or am I missing something here (e.g. auto power
management being a different mode to what's the default setting)?

This was a new bug in Trac #8062, which I've just fixed and pushed to
Joyride.  Thanks!

- Chris.
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Re: Libertas firmware on F9 for the XS

2008-09-10 Thread Deepak Saxena
On Sep 10 2008, at 11:04, Martin Langhoff was caught saying:
 Now that I have a F9-based XS build, I've dropped the custom-compiled
 driver and the firmware for Libertas, hoping to use the stock standard
 F9.
 
 But that might be a bit optimistic :-)
 
 After a quick check it looks like the XO images are shipping newer
 Libertas firmware as you can see below. The XO builds also have a few
 problems with the Firmware too, so I'm not entirely sure what to do...
 
 - F9 libertas-usb8388-firmware-5.111.20.p49-1
 - F9/XO (8.2-759) libertas-usb8388-firmware-5.111.22.p18-1
 
 The main question for Libertas experts from the POV of the XS is: what
 firmware is most stable? On the XS power consumption and sleep are not
 high priority. Stability and performance over long periods of time is.
 
 Also - should I look at replacing / recompiling the driver that F9
 ships? (Hoping not...) If you say yes, be aware it is a major
 maintenance hassle for the already short-handed XS team, so I'll want
 to know what benefits it brings.

I think for both FW and kernel driver, it depends on what features
you need. 

For the XO 8.2 kernel we had to pull forward some patches from the stable 
2.6.22 branch that are not upstream to get multicast RX to work properly 
(#7319).

Firmware wise, .22 includes a fix for #7973.

~Deepak

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Re: Stability and Memory Pressure in 8.2

2008-09-10 Thread Gary C Martin
On 10 Sep 2008, at 08:27, Marco Pesenti Gritti wrote:

 On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 4:29 AM, Gary C Martin  
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Well, I was hoping to see the numbers go the other way with the
 rainbow fork trick sharing more module code between Activities. Could
 be worse I guess – I should also test opening N instances of the same
 Activity and see which way memory usage has moved in that scenario.

 Now that's worrying. Could you try to disable security (remove
 /etc/olpc-security)? That will kill the rainbow trick and comparing
 data should tell us if it's helping  memory at all.


Sure, retested build 759 with and without /etc/olpc-security, same  
test procedure as before:

With /etc/olpc-security removed, a reboot, and all five Activities  
launched, free buffers/cache reports 21Mb more is being used (up to  
192Mb from 171Mb). Though looking at each Activity's footprint shows a  
less clear signal where Write-57 and Record-57 actually have a  
considerably smaller footprint; and Calculate-23, Paint-22, and Moon-4  
have a slightly larger footprint (and shared memory is actually  
reported as having increased).

Write-57
with - 15.5% (RES=35m, SHR=13m, DATA=20m)
without - 13.8% (RES=31m, SHR=12m, DATA=18m)

Record-57
with - 14.2% (RES=32m, SHR=14m, DATA=64m)
without - 11.5% (RES=26m, SHR=11m, DATA=61m)

Calculate-23
with - 10.6% (RES=24m, SHR=8m, DATA=15m)
without - 11.3% (RES=25m, SHR=11m, DATA=13m)

Paint-22
with - 10.1% (RES=23m, SHR=8m, DATA=14m)
without - 10.6% (RES=24m, SHR=11m, DATA=12m)

Moon-4
with - 9.7% (RES=22m, SHR=8m, DATA=13m)
without - 10.3% (RES=23m, SHR=11m, DATA=11m)

Also I noticed, for some reason, X uses 6-8Mb less resident memory  
with /etc/olpc-security removed. That was unexpected enough for me to  
re-check the results several times:

/usr/bin/X
with - 7.5% (RES=17m, SHR=13m, DATA=9m)
with - 7.5% (RES=17m  SHR=13m DATA=9m)

without - 5.1% (RES=11m, SHR=8m, DATA=9m)
without - 4.3% (RES=9m, SHR=7m, DATA=9m)

Hmm, so what actually took up the extra 21Mb in total that the rainbow  
trick does appear to be saving us (considering most of the above items  
all add up as memory savings when disabling the rainbow trick)?

I seem to be generating more questions than answers here!

--Gary
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Change PILGRIM_LOCALES_* to better reflect the current situation

2008-09-10 Thread Sayamindu Dasgupta
On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 7:04 PM, Daniel Drake [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Thu, 2008-08-28 at 15:04 +0530, Sayamindu Dasgupta wrote:
 b) To reflect the current and near future deployments (including G1G1
 2008) and the level of translations that we have in Pootle, the
 variables get changed to

 en:es:ar:pl:pt_BR:pt:it:fr:ht:el:mn:mr_IN:th:am_ET:km_KH:ne_NP:ur_PK:rw:ja:de:tr:te:ps:fa_AF:si



 Both PILGRIM_LOCALES_JFFS2 and PILGRIM_LOCALES_EXT3 need to be
 changed, since Qemu builds will also need to the translations.

 I updated the jffs2 setting in joyride with the above locales for the
 time being. Didn't update ext3 as it looks like that one was
 purposefully chosen to only include english?

 Daniel




Can the 8.2 series be fixed please ?
It still uses the old set of locales.
Thanks,
Sayamindu



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Re: [PROPOSAL] Change PILGRIM_LOCALES_* to better reflect the current situation

2008-09-10 Thread C. Scott Ananian
On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 2:27 PM, Sayamindu Dasgupta [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 7:04 PM, Daniel Drake [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Thu, 2008-08-28 at 15:04 +0530, Sayamindu Dasgupta wrote:
 b) To reflect the current and near future deployments (including G1G1
 2008) and the level of translations that we have in Pootle, the
 variables get changed to
 en:es:ar:pl:pt_BR:pt:it:fr:ht:el:mn:mr_IN:th:am_ET:km_KH:ne_NP:ur_PK:rw:ja:de:tr:te:ps:fa_AF:si


Can we quantify the space tradeoffs here?  If localization is taking a
significant amount of space, it might eventually be reasonable to
install translations *only* for the sugar-related packages, and not
for bash, sed, etc.  But if they are relatively small, you're right,
why not include them all?
 --scott

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New joyride build 2415

2008-09-10 Thread Build Announcer v2
http://xs-dev.laptop.org/~cscott/olpc/streams/joyride/build2415

Changes in build 2415 from build: 2414

Size delta: 0.00M

-ohm 0.1.1-6.19.20080910git.olpc3
+ohm 0.1.1-6.20.20080911git.olpc3

--- Changes for ohm 0.1.1-6.20.20080911git.olpc3 from 
0.1.1-6.19.20080910git.olpc3 ---
  + #8062:  Bugfix -- look for automaticpm, not automatic_pm.

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Re: [sugar] Question about clipboard service

2008-09-10 Thread Eben Eliason
On Fri, Sep 5, 2008 at 4:37 PM, Greg Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Hi Eben,

 I'm resurrecting an old thread here.

 BTW if you have any more specs or design proposals to share, now is a
 good time to consider them for 9.1-sugar .84 so send them out.

The clipboard specification on the wiki is a good starting place for
discussion, I think, and there are a number of tickets open on the
subject as well.

 I see where you are going with this work flow for kids writing on their
 own then coming together. It could work but it feels like we are forcing
 the kids to adapt to the technology rather than having the technology
 adapt to the way kids learn.

It's interesting that you see it that way.  I'd almost argue it the
other way:  We're attempting to keep the technology simple by taking
advantage of spacial proximity and social interaction, rather than
complicating it in ways which make it harder to guarantee robustness.
I want to be able to say if nothing else works, manual merge via copy
paste will.  I think you can probably agree with that sentiment.

 Having the two instances of the activity open and moving back and forth
 between them seems especially inelegant.

Inelegant, perhaps.  But it's also, by definition, the fail-safe
solution to the problem.  I'm all for creating APIs that enable more
intelligent merge behaviors.  But some things simply can't be merged.
Some activities may not take advantage of these APIs.  When nothing
else works, we MUST support the simple ability to aggregate content
via basic copy/paste.

Moreover, I'm not sure that this manual system is as entirely
inelegant as you suggest.  Most merge software shows a two-up display
of differences, side by side, providing info about what to merge.  But
XO screens are small.  In a completely non-technical way, allowing
multiple instances to be open at once allows you and I, for instance,
to present our individual documents on our own screens, side by side
for comparison.  Then one or the other of us can copy/paste bits and
pieces together as needed.

 That said, I don't have a better idea readily available :-(. I think we
 should go back to fundamentals and think this through one more time.

Again, I don't think there's more to think through for a first pass.
The manual merge capability is an essential part of the system, and
the most basic, regardless of what other conveniences we can build up
to support these types of use cases.

 How do kids collaborate on projects with pencil and paper? Is anyone on
 the list a teacher? I'll run it by my own kids but I think we need to
 watch this process in action to get a better feel for it.

 I can't remember any times when my kids wrote something at home then
 brought it in to class then combined it in to a project. They usually do
 some research, come up with ideas then write it together in person.

Perhaps, but were they using a pencil and paper?  If they had typed
their ideas up instead, wouldn't they be irritated at having to type
it again?  Of course, I'm not pushing any particular learning style
here.  The kids don't have to wind up in a circumstance where a merge
is needed.  If they never do, great! (But they will, even if they
don't intend to...) As long as we offer collaborative software, the
case exists, and we need to have a way to handle it smoothly within
the system we've built.

I, for the record, have collaborated in this way countless times.

 I believe that when kids get together in a group, one kid takes the lead
 and does most of the writig while others shout out ideas and make
 suggestions.

It's true that, often, one person is in charge of performing the
merge.  That's partly because it's been the only way to do it so far.
And, in another sense, this is still how it will likely happen.  Even
if we have several documents open, we might assign a single individual
in the group to be the aggregator who does all the copy/pasting.  Once
finished, everyone closes their own version and continues working in
his (and henceforth our) copy. Even if others aren't around to shout
out ideas, the fact remains that the only way to do the merge is to
open both documents at once!

 We don't have to imitate how its done now, but maybe watching kids
 interact will help inform the design. One thing you hear a lot is that
 kids teach each other how to use the XO better than teachers teach them.
 What does that look like in detail? One kid leans over and types on
 another kids keyboard or she tells the other kid what to do?

 May be the right design is to have each kid open write (or a web page?)
 and then they click a button and everything on their screen is copied in
 to the shared version which they now also see. Sort of a fast start
 option. Then kids edit that down to a final product. A dump everything
 in then prune it down approach. That's my working methodology (see 9.1
 page :-) but my brain is way different than a kids...

This is an interesting alternative (or subcase of) a traditional 

Re: Stability and Memory Pressure in 8.2

2008-09-10 Thread Michael Stone
A more accurate test would be to disable the preloading itself rather
than disabling isolation but leaving rainbow loading the libraries. :)

To do that, see lines 31-32 of

   /usr/lib/python2.5/site_packages/rainbow/service.py

You want to set self.preloader_hint = False and comment out the call to
self.preload_common_modules() by putting '#' at the beginning.

Regards,

Michael
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Change PILGRIM_LOCALES_* to better reflect the current situation

2008-09-10 Thread Sayamindu Dasgupta
On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 12:39 AM, C. Scott Ananian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 2:27 PM, Sayamindu Dasgupta [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 7:04 PM, Daniel Drake [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Thu, 2008-08-28 at 15:04 +0530, Sayamindu Dasgupta wrote:
 b) To reflect the current and near future deployments (including G1G1
 2008) and the level of translations that we have in Pootle, the
 variables get changed to
 en:es:ar:pl:pt_BR:pt:it:fr:ht:el:mn:mr_IN:th:am_ET:km_KH:ne_NP:ur_PK:rw:ja:de:tr:te:ps:fa_AF:si


 Can we quantify the space tradeoffs here?  If localization is taking a
 significant amount of space, it might eventually be reasonable to
 install translations *only* for the sugar-related packages, and not
 for bash, sed, etc.  But if they are relatively small, you're right,
 why not include them all?
  --scott


Currently, the size increase will be 6 MB (from 18 MB (seen in
8.2-759) to 24 MB (seen in joyride 2415)).  It may be a good idea to
strip the translations for sed, bash, etc, but is there any
straightforward method to do that ?
Thanks,
Sayamindu


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Change PILGRIM_LOCALES_* to better reflect the current situation

2008-09-10 Thread Erik Garrison
On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 01:38:15AM +0530, Sayamindu Dasgupta wrote:
 On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 12:39 AM, C. Scott Ananian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 2:27 PM, Sayamindu Dasgupta [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  wrote:
  On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 7:04 PM, Daniel Drake [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  On Thu, 2008-08-28 at 15:04 +0530, Sayamindu Dasgupta wrote:
  b) To reflect the current and near future deployments (including G1G1
  2008) and the level of translations that we have in Pootle, the
  variables get changed to
  en:es:ar:pl:pt_BR:pt:it:fr:ht:el:mn:mr_IN:th:am_ET:km_KH:ne_NP:ur_PK:rw:ja:de:tr:te:ps:fa_AF:si
 
 
  Can we quantify the space tradeoffs here?  If localization is taking a
  significant amount of space, it might eventually be reasonable to
  install translations *only* for the sugar-related packages, and not
  for bash, sed, etc.  But if they are relatively small, you're right,
  why not include them all?
   --scott
 
 
 Currently, the size increase will be 6 MB (from 18 MB (seen in
 8.2-759) to 24 MB (seen in joyride 2415)).  It may be a good idea to
 strip the translations for sed, bash, etc, but is there any
 straightforward method to do that ?
 Thanks,
 Sayamindu

I don't think that there is any specific reason to chop localizations
from ext3 (qemu-oriented) images.  If anything it's caused headaches for
groups needing a localized qemu image.  I'm not really sure of what
benefits there are as such images are not to be installed on XOs.

Are we in agreement on this?

Erik
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Change PILGRIM_LOCALES_* to better reflect the current situation

2008-09-10 Thread Ton van Overbeek
Erik Garrison wrote:
.

 I don't think that there is any specific reason to chop localizations
 from ext3 (qemu-oriented) images.  If anything it's caused headaches for
 groups needing a localized qemu image.  I'm not really sure of what
 benefits there are as such images are not to be installed on XOs.

 Are we in agreement on this?
   
These images are not to be installed, but certainly can be run on XOs 
from either USB or SD-card.
Anyway, I also believe the localizations should be in the ext3 images.

Ton van Overbeek (especially interested in nl_NL ;-))
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Change PILGRIM_LOCALES_* to better reflect the current situation

2008-09-10 Thread Sayamindu Dasgupta
On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 1:52 AM, Ton van Overbeek [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Erik Garrison wrote:
 .

 I don't think that there is any specific reason to chop localizations
 from ext3 (qemu-oriented) images.  If anything it's caused headaches for
 groups needing a localized qemu image.  I'm not really sure of what
 benefits there are as such images are not to be installed on XOs.

 Are we in agreement on this?


 These images are not to be installed, but certainly can be run on XOs from
 either USB or SD-card.
 Anyway, I also believe the localizations should be in the ext3 images.

 Ton van Overbeek (especially interested in nl_NL ;-))


+1.

I think it just got approved in the relevant trac ticket :-D

Cheers,
Sayamindu



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8.1.3 release candidate

2008-09-10 Thread C. Scott Ananian
I have published build 714, the first (and hopefully only!) release
candidate for the 8.1.3 point release, at:
  http://download.laptop.org/xo-1/os/candidate/714/

You can install it with:
  olpc-update candidate-714

It is a signed build; it can be used on secured machines.  Brief
release notes here:
  http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Release_notes/8.1.3

In summary: we fixed our support of Amharic for Ethiopian keyboards,
and updated OFW to q2e17 (the latest).
 --scott

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Re: [Server-devel] latest XS + ltsp

2008-09-10 Thread Martin Langhoff
On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 2:14 AM, David Van Assche [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   We are doing a pilot with a bunch of xos and an XS server. I'd like
 to be able to add LTSP functionality to the same server, (must be FC9)
  so that it can do that for a couple static computers... do you see
 any problems mixing XS with LTSP, or should this not be too bad.

Throw a lot of RAM on it - everything else should be ok. Be careful
with pam , LTSP configuration tools are likely to setup LDAP for user
auth, and our XS config will be adding SOTP for user auth. Theory says
there is no conflict - but keep your eyes open ;-)

Note that these images do have some broken stuff, some of it related
to yum/rpm/anaconda infra.

cheers,



m
-- 
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 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- School Server Architect
 - ask interesting questions
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 - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff
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Re: recognizing a previous connection

2008-09-10 Thread Pia Waugh
Hi all,

quote who=[EMAIL PROTECTED]

 It is my understanding that deployments with larger schools will be  using
 WAPs and possibly some active antennas (currently a shortage of these).
 These large schools are more like the G1G1 situation as  the pupil moves
 from one area of the school to another they may  connect to another AP.  I
 have informed a person involved with deployment at large schools of  this
 thread (and the other thread). I am hoping they will respond  with
 information about the wireless topography.

Actually, you can overcome this in a large school by using a WDS network, or
by simply giving all the access points the same name, then as the student
moves around the campus they seamlessly switch from AP to AP, as it is
effectively the same wireless network.

I did this at two schools of ~200-250 students each with a WDS setup (as
they didn't have ethernet to the classrooms), and it worked perfectly. If
you have ethernet to the classrooms, then APs with the same ESSID would work
even better. Details here:

  http://wiki.laptop.org/go/OLPC_Niue#Documentation

Cheers,
Pia
 
--
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Linux Australia http://linux.org.au/
Open Source Industry Australia   http://osia.net.au/
Software Freedom Day  http://softwarefreedomday.org/

  Jeff: Whatchootalkin'boutwillis?
Pia: What's Willis?

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Re: Expected date for 8.2.0

2008-09-10 Thread Douglas Bagnall
Walter Bender wrote:

 Are we still so wedded to the purity of circles? Simply changing the
 shape of the icon once a connection is made would go a long way. Maybe
 morph into a star? or a sun? Or add the ubiquitous parens around the
 icon a la the indicator light? None of these would adversely impact
 the color-ID scheme.

There has been some discussion on the server-devel list of making a
logo for the XS.  Perhaps the symbol for a connected school server
should match that logo (and a simple mesh should look different -- for
me at least this would save, well, a minute per week).

The thread starts and restarts at:
http://lists.laptop.org/pipermail/server-devel/2008-September/001896.html
http://lists.laptop.org/pipermail/server-devel/2008-September/001920.html

This might also focus the minds of prospective designers: rather than
struggling to incorporate the letters X and S, try to make your logo
look like a school.


Douglas
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Re: q2e15 and a bricked BTest-2

2008-09-10 Thread Richard Smith
Jecel Assumpcao Jr wrote:

 
 I know that newer versions of the OS can't be used on such an old
 machine and had expected there to be limits for the firmware too, but
 everything I found on the wiki indicated that all versions are
 compatible with it (only ATest has limits).

Ugh.  Verified.  e15 bricks a B2.  I suspect that when I fixed the 
board ID table for the upcoming C3 I've somehow broken B2.

I'm investigating now.

-- 
Richard A. Smith
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: 8.1.3 release candidate

2008-09-10 Thread Richard A. Smith
C. Scott Ananian wrote:
 I have published build 714, the first (and hopefully only!) release
 candidate for the 8.1.3 point release, at:
   http://download.laptop.org/xo-1/os/candidate/714/

Do not install this or any thing else with newer ( q2e12) firmware on a 
B2 or it will brick.

-- 
Richard Smith  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
One Laptop Per Child
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Announce: WikipediaEN.xo

2008-09-10 Thread Chris Ball
Hi,

We now have an English offline Wikipedia snapshot, available here:

   http://dev.laptop.org/~cjb/enwiki/WikipediaEN-2.xo

Feedback appreciated!  Known bugs are crashes due to out-of-memory
conditions when using Joyride builds, and a Rainbow warning dialog
due to a Hulahop bug¹.  We're thinking about shipping this with G1G1
machines, so let me know if you find pages with inappropriate content
(images aren't currently included in the snapshot, so we don't have to
worry about those yet).  The archive has the top 8,000 English Wikipedia
articles as ranked by the Wikipedia 0.7 release team².

Thanks to Madeleine Ball for preparing the snapshot, and Martin Walker
and the Wikipedia 0.7 release team for making the article selection.

- Chris.

¹:  http://dev.laptop.org/ticket/8318
²:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Release_Version
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Re: q2e15 and a bricked BTest-2

2008-09-10 Thread Jecel Assumpcao Jr
Richard A. Smith wrote:
 Ugh.  Verified.  e15 bricks a B2.  I suspect that when I fixed the 
 board ID table for the upcoming C3 I've somehow broken B2.
 
 I'm investigating now.

It is hard to avoid having these things happen given all the versions of
machines out there. Though it is still more like the early Mac days than
the current PC world. When I was downloading e15 the second time to
verify that I had the right bits, I did run across a notice that said
that e12 was the latest stable version. By then it was too late, of
course.

-- Jecel

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8.2.0 Release Criteria ECO Documentation

2008-09-10 Thread Michael Stone
In preparation for shipping an 8.2.0 build to manufacturing, we need to
agree on release criteria. To that end, I have stubbed out rough ECO
documentation for 8.2.0 at

   http://wiki.laptop.org/go/ECO/8.2.0
   http://wiki.laptop.org/go/ECO/8.2.0/Checklist

Please review these pages and offer suggestions on their talk pages so
that I can fold your comments into the pages over the next week.

So far, the most important changes I have made include:

   * Stating some of the technical documentation that future stable
 releases should include and making space for us to try creating that
 documentation for 8.2.0 at our leisure.

   * Stating the list of locales and keyboards which I believe must be
 minimally qualified for 8.2.0. See

   http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Mstone/Notes/Localization_1

 for notes on what I mean by 'release X is qualified for locale Y'.

   * Created a test item for documentation signoff on the manual and
 activities signoff on the derivative builds.

   * Created final test items for release criteria including:

1 week of community testing
all recent bugs triaged
no 8.2.0 blockers
release notes signoff

What have I missed?

Michael 
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New joyride build 2416

2008-09-10 Thread Build Announcer v2
http://xs-dev.laptop.org/~cscott/olpc/streams/joyride/build2416

Changes in build 2416 from build: 2415

Size delta: -0.13M

-fedora-release 9-3.1
+fedora-release 9-5.transition.1

--- Changes for fedora-release 9-5.transition.1 from 9-3.1 ---
  + Update OLPC fork to 5.transition.
  + transition state between old and new key

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Re: [Server-devel] XS Splashscreen / logo

2008-09-10 Thread Martin Langhoff
On Fri, Sep 5, 2008 at 4:29 PM, Martin Langhoff
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 7:00 PM, Martin Langhoff
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 6:48 PM, Jeff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I'll write up some details as soon as I can, and announce it on the OLPC
 artwork wiki too.

 *Fantastic*. After seeing your logo, I started thinking of where
 would we put a logo - a quick rundown of the spots I think we'll have
 one...

 Ok - it does look like my quest to avoid graphical installers is
 doomed. Visual people, rejoice!

I've put together a page on the wiki to organise this. The main thing
is that we need a bunch a logo and some imagery to identify the XS. It
makes sense to link the XS identity with what kids select in the
network view. Right now, we have concentric circles which mean
mesh, which can be simple mesh or xs mesh. To cmplicate things
further, in many (most) locations people will use APs to connect to
the XS.

Hmmm.


anyway - in general, whan I am after is an icon/logo that

* displays as identifier on the webbased tools that the XS provides
(moodle, mediawiki, etc)
* (if we can sort out the issues outlined before...) provide a
matching identity when kids select the school server signal in the
'networks' view

With the logo, we'll need imagery to

* make the XS installation process beautiful
* print and stick on our development boxes!

I've put my notes, plus sample images of the Fedora stuff we want to
replace, here: http://wiki.laptop.org/go/XS_Help_with_logos

cheers,



m
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New joyride build 2417

2008-09-10 Thread Build Announcer v2
http://xs-dev.laptop.org/~cscott/olpc/streams/joyride/build2417

Changes in build 2417 from build: 2416

Size delta: 0.13M

-iptables-ipv6 1.4.1.1-1.fc9
+iptables-ipv6 1.4.1.1-2.fc9
-MAKEDEV 3.23-4
+MAKEDEV 3.23-5.fc9
-enchant 1:1.4.2-1.fc9
+enchant 1:1.4.2-2.fc9
-iptables 1.4.1.1-1.fc9
+iptables 1.4.1.1-2.fc9
-libcurl 7.18.2-1.fc9
+libcurl 7.18.2-5.fc9
-mpfr 2.3.0-3.fc9
+mpfr 2.3.1-1.fc9

--- Changes for MAKEDEV 3.23-5.fc9 from 3.23-4 ---
  + Make sure we have getent installed for our %pre section.

--- Changes for iptables 1.4.1.1-2.fc9 from 1.4.1.1-1.fc9 ---
  + fixed TOS value mask problem (rhbz#456244) (upstream patch)
  + two more cloexec fixes

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Re: q2e15 and a bricked BTest-2

2008-09-10 Thread Richard Smith
Jecel Assumpcao Jr wrote:

 It is hard to avoid having these things happen given all the versions of
 machines out there. Though it is still more like the early Mac days than
 the current PC world. When I was downloading e15 the second time to
 verify that I had the right bits, I did run across a notice that said
 that e12 was the latest stable version. By then it was too late, of
 course.

All 'e' series firmware will brick any machine using a Geode GX (B1  
B2) so e12 would have not have saved you.

B2's have been unsupported for quite a while now and we don't do any 
testing on them. Nor do we care to since we don't have the resources.

If you make and account on the developer program website and say you 
have a B2 that you want replaced we will send you a new MP machine. 
Make sure there is some sort of project listed with your request.

-- 
Richard A. Smith
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: Libertas firmware on F9 for the XS

2008-09-10 Thread Martin Langhoff
On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 12:37 AM, Ricardo Carrano [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 The release notes can be acessed here:
 http://www.laptop.org/teamwiki/index.php/Tech:FW_8388_RELEASE_NOTES

 22.p18 is the current version in joyride. Anything older than 22.p14
 is not recommended at all (quite the opposite).

Thanks for the link. There isn't much info on stability.

 - Which of those releases are considered usable?

 - Which one would be the lowest risk for the XS?

 - Is any of those releases known to work well with the stock F9 kernel?

 - Is any of those releases known to survive long periods of time
working? (I am seeing a nightly lockup with the AA here, on little or
no traffic - and people tell me that we have a usb bus reset on the XO
to workaround a similar condition.)

cheers,




m
-- 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- School Server Architect
 - ask interesting questions
 - don't get distracted with shiny stuff - working code first
 - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff
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Re: Libertas firmware on F9 for the XS

2008-09-10 Thread Martin Langhoff
On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 6:21 AM, Deepak Saxena [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 The main question for Libertas experts from the POV of the XS is: what
 firmware is most stable? On the XS power consumption and sleep are not
 high priority. Stability and performance over long periods of time is.

 Also - should I look at replacing / recompiling the driver that F9
 ships? (Hoping not...) If you say yes, be aware it is a major
 maintenance hassle for the already short-handed XS team, so I'll want
 to know what benefits it brings.

 I think for both FW and kernel driver, it depends on what features
 you need.

Thanks for the links to bugs!

 For the XO 8.2 kernel we had to pull forward some patches from the stable
 2.6.22 branch that are not upstream to get multicast RX to work properly
 (#7319).

Interesting - from what I read there, the driver in the stock kernel
might work better with an earlier firmware, is that correct? Is there
an easy way to test whether multicast is working?

 Firmware wise, .22 includes a fix for #7973.

... I don't think it is present in the fw that ships w F9.

cheers,




m
-- 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- School Server Architect
 - ask interesting questions
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 - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff
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Videochat - any status?

2008-09-10 Thread Pia Waugh
Hi all,

I have a great need for the video chat application to use for remote speech
pathology and other services to remote communities through chat. Does anyone
know the status of this project:

  http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Video_Chat

It looks like nothing has happened with it for several months. If there is
anyone leading this, could they post a status of the project?

Cheers,
Pia

-- 
OLPC Australia   http://olpc.org.au/
Linux Australia http://linux.org.au/
Open Source Industry Australia   http://osia.net.au/
Software Freedom Day  http://softwarefreedomday.org/
 
 I dig your vibe. - Rove McManus to Ice T
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Re: Videochat - any status?

2008-09-10 Thread Samuel Klein
Pia,

Alex looked into this in July, I don't think much has been done with
the original videochat code since the last git commit:

http://dev.laptop.org/git?p=projects/video-chat-activity;a=summary

SJ

On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 12:21 AM, Pia Waugh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Hi all,

 I have a great need for the video chat application to use for remote speech
 pathology and other services to remote communities through chat. Does anyone
 know the status of this project:

  http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Video_Chat

 It looks like nothing has happened with it for several months. If there is
 anyone leading this, could they post a status of the project?

 Cheers,
 Pia

 --
 OLPC Australia   http://olpc.org.au/
 Linux Australia http://linux.org.au/
 Open Source Industry Australia   http://osia.net.au/
 Software Freedom Day  http://softwarefreedomday.org/

 I dig your vibe. - Rove McManus to Ice T
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 Devel@lists.laptop.org
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[Server-devel] Creating a spin - any mechanisms around $product-release, $product-release-notes, $product-logos packages...?

2008-09-10 Thread Martin Langhoff
I'm finishing off the F9 port of the OLPC School Server, and as part
of that I'm preparing xs-release, xs-release-notes and xs-logos
packages.

As far as I can see, these are pulled because they provide
system-release and system-logos. fedora-release-notes is pulled in by
fedora-release, and perhaps by something depending on indexhtml
(httpd?).

My key question is: will anything in the Fedora machinery (anaconda,
rpm, yum) be looking for a magic product name, and then try to use
it to request $product-release?

(I ask to be safe - recently got very confused by anaconda not
upgrading Fedora-based spins due to mismatching 'product' between
.discinfo and /etc/redhat-release . Knowing these special rules is
important ;-) and I have not found yet any document laying out the
subtle traps awaiting anyone doing a Fedora derivative as I am
doing...)

cheers,


m
-- 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- School Server Architect
 - ask interesting questions
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 - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff
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Re: [Server-devel] latest XS + ltsp

2008-09-10 Thread Jerry Vonau
David Van Assche wrote:
 Hi there,
We are doing a pilot with a bunch of xos and an XS server. I'd like
 to be able to add LTSP functionality to the same server, (must be FC9)
Cool, someone else that thinks like I do..

  so that it can do that for a couple static computers... do you see
 any problems mixing XS with LTSP, or should this not be too bad. 
Should not be too much trouble but you never know.

 I
 know LTSP quite well, and I can't for see too many issues, but perhaps
 I haven't thought about all of it... where can I download the very
 latest XS for FC9?
 

http://xs-dev.laptop.org/xs/other/Fedora-0.5.dev2-i386.iso

 Kind Regards,
 David Van Assche

I'd be interested in how you make out.

Jerry

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Re: [Server-devel] Update ejabberd package

2008-09-10 Thread Guillaume Desmottes
Le mercredi 10 septembre 2008 à 14:44 +0100, Guillaume Desmottes a
écrit :
 FYI, I'm working on #5310 and hope to have a package creating
 automatically the shared roster soon.

I hacked a ejabberd module and we are now able to create the shared
roster using 2 commands. Problem is, we can't execute them as RPM post
install commands (see http://dev.laptop.org/ticket/5310#comment:10 for
details).

So, maybe we could provide a script creating the shared roster once the
server name has been configured in ejabberd.cfg? That would make
configuration lot easier for users as they won't have to deal with the
web interface anymore.

Thoughts?


G.


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