Re: SarynPaint: a Java program packaged for the OLPC

2009-08-31 Thread Jim Gettys
Early in OLPC, we seriously wanted to go with Java: but Sun's licensing 
was a serious issue we could not get around, despite a number of 
attempts by Walter to talk with Sun and see if it could get fixed.

Part of the issue caused by this licensing was the all or nothing part 
of it: as shipped, the tar-ball-from-hell footprint of Sun's distro: 
60MB was a lot too much, along with the memory consumption feared (but 
Python has proved to be similarly problematic).

And at the time, the non-Sun implementations weren't mature enough.

Both the licensing and implementations issues now seem pretty moot.

So again, part of why Java is not ubiquitous to this day has been its 
license history  Whether it, at this late date, can ever recover 
from the damage done by this history, is far from clear.
Sigh
 - Jim


Tomeu Vizoso wrote:
 On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 16:56, Jeffrey Kesselmanjef...@gmail.com wrote:
 Honestly,  I think the lack of Java on the XO has more with python
 defensiveness then anything else.
 
 Honestly, I don't think so. Most or all of the Sugar developers had
 zero python experience when joined the project. And we are way too
 busy to care about language wars.
 
 I draw this conclusion partly from the fact that it has been pretty
 crippling lack since initial inception of the XO, but one that there is
 great resistance to fixing nonetheless.
 
 The Sugar platform is composed by what deployers want to be there, not
 by what each developer would like. If that was the case, we would have
 to ship the runtimes for all available languages and the XO doesn't
 have enough room for that, nm for the student's work...
 
 If you really think that Java should be there, propose to deployers of
 Sugar an activity that will bring value to their students and tell
 them to talk to us.
 
 Regards,
 
 Tomeu
 
 On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 10:46 AM, Ben Wiley Sittler bsitt...@gmail.com
 wrote:
 I think maintaining two parallel versions of the code in two languages
 would be a huge waste of effort for me, but if someone else wants to
 they are of course welcome to.

 I have neither time nor inclination to port it merely to work around
 the historical accident of Java not having been Open Source at the
 time Sugar was initially developed. Also, I think the UI of this
 program is actually more friendly to very young children by *not*
 being more Sugarized — there's no confusing Frame when they
 (inevitably) move the pointer to the edges of the screen, and since it
 doesn't (yet) have save support or text input there's really no reason
 for a toolbar or Journal integration. Mind you, minimal save/resume
 support might be nice to have on all platforms someday.

 On 2009-08-29, Gary C Martin g...@garycmartin.com wrote:
 Hi Ben,

 On 29 Aug 2009, at 18:24, Ben Wiley Sittler wrote:

 I think, then, that I would rather just ship it as an activity bundle
 for Sugar+Java or Sugar+OpenJDK, since the versioning issues (which
 OpenJDK version should I use, exactly?), licensing issues (GPLv2 
 GPLv2+classpath-exception for OpenJDK vs. GPLv3 for SarynPaint,)
 packaging unknowns (how does one run OpenJDK from a subdirectory,
 exactly?), and bloat make bundling a JRE inside the .xo ridiculously
 impractical. I'm halfway tempted to try to subset OpenJDK for this (to
 reduce bloat), but that seems like an even bigger nightmare.
 Sorry if this is a controversial comment, but would you considered
 porting the code to Python? It looks like a nice starter chunk of code
 for someone interested in Python and or Sugar Activities.

 Regards,
 --Gary

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Re: [Server-devel] Apache proxy CRCsync mozilla gsoc project?

2009-04-01 Thread Jim Gettys
On Thu, 2009-04-02 at 07:17 +1300, Toby Collett wrote:
 So a quick question, what sort of http transfers are chunking most
 often used for?

Dynamically generated content is the scenario for chunked transfers;
since you don't know the length a-priori, some other method of
indicating the message length is necessary.
- Jim

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So long, and thanks for all the fish.....

2009-01-08 Thread Jim Gettys
I too am sad to be leaving the project; but there many, many kids who
will be benefiting. I've learned a lot, and made friends all over the
world.

I may be involved in some form as  a volunteer in the future but in the
near term I also need to focus on finding employment.  You know where to
find me.

Thank you all for your efforts; millions of kids benefit...
- Jim

j...@freedesktop.org


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Re: No surprise on memory

2008-12-18 Thread Jim Gettys

On Thu, 2008-12-18 at 09:13 -1000, Mitch Bradley wrote:
 John Gilmore wrote:
  Swapping to the soldered-in NAND chips is a very bad idea.  It will
  tend to wear them out rapidly.  Even if you use load-leveling software
  (e.g. swapping to a file in a jfffs2 filesystem), the problem is that
  if you do start wearing out serious numbers of flash blocks, the
  laptop becomes toast; it requires a soldering iron and spare chips to
  fix it.

John, do the math: for the current chips (single level cells), life is
of order 10^5 cycles.  So you have 10^5 gigabytes of writing.  This
takes *a long* time.

Swapping is not an insane idea, once you have wear leveling.  We don't
do it now because JFFS2 cannot support swapping, and we don't have a
wear level beneath the file system.

UBI and Ubifs fix this, and it is something we can consider.


 
 Well, maybe it's not as bad as all that.  When the NAND wears out, then 
 you can buy the SD card, thus deferring that purchase and taking 
 advantage of Moore's law in the interim.

Lots of people tend to forget, however, that warm (and/or cold) salt air
is a serious issue in many of the places we have to go.  Any connector
tends to die under these circumstances.

 
 Note that I'm not advocating in favor of soldered NAND - in fact I've 
 been one of the leading proponents of migrating to an SD-based storage 
 solution.  I'm just pointing out that, if you're willing to buy an SD 
 card now (which is necessary for the SD-based swap solution), then you 
 are probably willing to buy one later.
 
Soldered down SD, however may be an intermediate point; may fewer wires
than a conventional chip.

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Re: [PATCH] cafe_nand: remove busy-wait loop

2008-12-09 Thread Jim Gettys
On Tue, 2008-12-09 at 07:05 -1000, Mitch Bradley wrote:

  Where do we go with this? Who's adventurous enough to test it? Dare we
  put it in joyride? Any suggestions for how to measure performance
  difference?


If Deepak likes it and it passes some tests, that would be the logical
thing to do next.
  - Jim

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Re: New touchpad still has some jumpyness

2008-11-25 Thread Jim Gettys
On Tue, 2008-11-25 at 18:54 -0500, Richard A. Smith wrote:
 During SJ's demo meeting today at 1cc I used my test machine with the 
 new touchpad.
 The touchpad on my laptop is much deeper inset than
 I still experienced jumpyness.   However, a much different jumpyness 
 than what happens with the alps device.  In my case it appears to happen 
 if the tip of my thumb gets up into the active area. (Creepage from 
 using it to click thThe touchpad on my laptop is much deeper inset than 
 e X button)   What I saw was the cursor would leap to the edge of the 
 screen which is similar to what happens with the current pad, but unlike 
 the current pad its does not continue to leap around. It a one shot and 
 then returns to normal movement.  This happened to me several times.
 
 So then I played with my HP laptop which also has a synaptics touchpad 
 and I'm able to duplicate the same behavior.

It's worth a gander at the upstream synaptics driver; I've seen some
patches go by recently.

 
 So even with the new touchpad we still may have to have some sort of 
 criteria for discarding packets with large deltas for the movement.
 
 By default in mouse mode the values reported by the device are relative. 
   So some sort of edge effect must confuse the controller.  I need to 
 enable some logging and see what data the device actually sent.
 
 I've also noticed that the acceleration of the new touchpad is much less 
 than the alps device.  When you switch from new to old the you can 
 really tell.  We should reduce the acceleration of the cursor for the 
 alps device. Its not necessary to be that fast.
 

Yeah, the acceleration stuff in X sucks.  Fixed in next release, IIRC
(after something like 20 years...)

 Is that something we can set defaults for in the X config or do we have 
 to detect what touchpad we are running?
 

Unfortunately, we'll have to detect it.  This whole are of X is being
reworked as we speak  Upstream, everything is hot plug, and you can
then set things on a per detected device basis.
  - Jim


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Re: x11vnc and vncviewer for classroom

2008-11-23 Thread Jim Gettys
On Sat, 2008-11-22 at 20:56 -0500, Ian Daniher wrote:
 To be honest, I've had the best luck with microsoft terminal services
 in so far as the thin client area goes - I use my XO day to day with
 my school's remote desktop server and it works flawlessly - the fonts
 are a bit tiny, but it works with no noticeable speed difference
 between it and a desktop. Why wasn't this approach considered instead
 of putting XP on XOs?

Can't take thin clients home, so you are immediately limited to
in-school use.
  - Jim


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Re: Sugar unusable as an e-book reader

2008-10-28 Thread Jim Gettys
http://live.gnome.org/Evince/SupportedDocumentFormats has evince's
currently supported formats.  I don't know exactly how we have it built.

The basic point is it is already able to support multiple formats as
plug-ins and others may be feasible.
   - Jim


On Tue, 2008-10-28 at 11:52 -0500, James Simmons wrote:
 Greg,
 
 I have never worked on the core Read activity.  From what I have seen of 
 it, I would say that you would have to modify evince so that it could 
 support more formats, notably plain text files and .cbr files (which are 
 archive files containing sequentially named images).  If it did that the 
 need for my two Activities would vanish.  I believe that evince can 
 already support comic books in the .cbr format if you compile in 
 optional support for it.  Of course evince is not an OLPC project, and 
 that will limit what can be done with it.
 
 Some of the problems you mention in your entry are actually issues with 
 the Journal (not remembering page numbers and making unnecessary copies 
 of files).  I think others are working on improving the Journal 
 datastore, which should help a lot of Activities.
 
 Document sharing is not reliable with Read (or Read Etexts either).
 
 Text to Speech in Read Etexts needs additional software to be installed 
 on the XO to work.  Someone was working on this a few months ago.
 
 As I said on my page for my Activities, I see them as only stopgaps 
 until the XO has a better Read activity that supports more formats.  I 
 don't feel qualified to work on Read itself.
 
 James Simmons
 
 Subject: Re: Sugar unusable as an e-book reader
 To: devel@lists.laptop.org
 Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
 
 Hi James and David,
 
 I want to track additions and improvements to the XOs eBook Reader on 
 our Feature roadmap page.
 
 I created a requirement called Better eBook Reader at:
 http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Feature_roadmap#Better_eBook_reader
 
 Can you update that with any additions or work we need to do? If you can 
 separate it in to requirement (what we want to do) and specification 
 (how we will do it) that will help.
 
 You can also put your name down as an owner if you plan to work on it 
 in the near future.
 
 Any questions or comments welcome.
 
 Thanks,
 
 Greg S
   
 
 
 
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Re: 9.1 Proposal: Power.

2008-10-23 Thread Jim Gettys
How well we can do that isn't clear.

We have 16 brightness levels, but we didn't think about making them
logarithmic in response to correspond to the eye's behavior, so there
are really fewer than that that are useful.

Please experiment and see if it is helpful, of course...
  - Jim

On Thu, 2008-10-23 at 10:14 -0400, Eben Eliason wrote:
 I could be talking nonsense, and perhaps this would consume more power
 than it saves, but if you were able to slowly dim the backlight over
 the course of a minute or so, instead of waiting a minute and then
 dropping it suddenly, we could prevent the sudden change which causes
 a break in concentration.  (As long as the screen is bright enough to
 be usable when dim, of course.)
 
 - Eben
 
 
 On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 4:21 PM, Chris Ball [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Hi,
 
 When running on battery with Energy Saver set to Better Battery
 Life (which sets Automatically reduce the brightness of the
 display before display sleep) the backlight dims after 30 seconds.
 On AC with the equivalent setting it's 2 minutes, 30 seconds.  In
 each case the dimming time seems to be 50% of the time until the
 screen is turned off.  1 minute is the minimum time before display
 sleep.
 
  Thanks!  I was hoping someone would have numbers.  Our backlight dim
  currently happens fifty seconds after idleness starts, so we're
  definitely less aggressive than OS X already..
 
  - Chris.
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Re: 9.1 Proposal: Printing support

2008-10-21 Thread Jim Gettys
On Tue, 2008-10-21 at 08:57 -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 can's mdns/avahi help with discovery?  it'd be a shame to have to
 manually configure a server address or name.
 

Certainly; this is what Apple does; the HP printer I bought recently is
so advertising itself  this way.  I haven't seen Linux using this
information, however, so there *may* be work to be done in Linux.

How far/well mdns scales with the mesh routing protocols, however, is
another question.
  - Jim

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Re: 9.1 Proposal: Printing support

2008-10-20 Thread Jim Gettys
Note there is a client library for IPP for cups that can talk to remote
servers, without having to run a spooler locally.  This may be a better
option
   - Jim


On Mon, 2008-10-20 at 10:58 -0400, Jeremy Katz wrote:
 On Fri, 2008-10-17 at 16:24 -0400, C. Scott Ananian wrote:
  *But*, we should be able to:
  *  Print postscript (or pdf, or whatever, just pick *one*) to
  school server via CUP (IPP?),
 
 cups uses IPP under the hood and IPP is definitely the route to go as
 it's basically The Standard in printing these days.  One thing that
 would probably be interesting for OLPC with cups, though, would be
 working on making it so that the daemon can be started on-demand rather
 than having to start on start-up.  There's some support in cupsd for
 this already, but it's tied to launchd on OS/X.  
 
 Jeremy
 
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Re: 9.1 Proposal: Printing support

2008-10-20 Thread Jim Gettys
This is not true; you can presume all cups/IPP printers support
postscript and PDF, courtesy of ghostscript in the remote cups server.

And cairo will happily produce PDF.

That IPP can expose other formats to clients can be treated as a legacy
capability, from where we sit.
- Jim


On Mon, 2008-10-20 at 10:20 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Mon, 20 Oct 2008, Jeremy Katz wrote:
 
  On Fri, 2008-10-17 at 16:24 -0400, C. Scott Ananian wrote:
  *But*, we should be able to:
  *  Print postscript (or pdf, or whatever, just pick *one*) to
  school server via CUP (IPP?),
 
  cups uses IPP under the hood and IPP is definitely the route to go as
  it's basically The Standard in printing these days.  One thing that
  would probably be interesting for OLPC with cups, though, would be
  working on making it so that the daemon can be started on-demand rather
  than having to start on start-up.  There's some support in cupsd for
  this already, but it's tied to launchd on OS/X.
 
 once concern that I have with CUPS/IPP (which may very well just be an 
 implementation issue with the current tools) is that the setups that I 
 have seen have wanted to have the printer driver for the specific printer 
 on the device initiating the print job.
 
 the setup that we would want to use for the XO would be to have them all 
 create the job using a single definition (postscript would be traditional 
 for this sort of thing) and then have the server convert this to what the 
 local printer needs.
 
 David Lang
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Re: 9.1 Proposal: Printing support

2008-10-20 Thread Jim Gettys
This worked (discovery) at one point (I tried it very early in OLPC
days).

But printer discovery is better done by some other mechanism than that
defined in IPP anyway, which is stupid broadcast.  Even MDNS is less
evil (e.g. avahi).

Some work is probably needed for scaling of printer discovery.

Running a cups server is almost certainly not necessary, though its
footprint might not be too terrible if it is stripped of all the stupid
printer definitions (which are huge).  I haven't tried that experiment.
- Jim


On Mon, 2008-10-20 at 13:57 -0400, Jeremy Katz wrote:
 On Mon, 2008-10-20 at 09:15 -0700, Jim Gettys wrote:
  Note there is a client library for IPP for cups that can talk to remote
  servers, without having to run a spooler locally.  This may be a better
  option
 
 It might be if it were an option that actually worked.  But I tried it a
 month or so ago and you must have the cups daemon running to discover
 remote printers.  That doesn't mean you have to have a local queue set
 up for the printer, but all of the discovery happens in the daemon and
 not in client apps.
 
 Jeremy
 
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Re: 9.1 Proposal: Printing support

2008-10-20 Thread Jim Gettys
Actually, teachers are the other people who have asked for printing
support (e.g. at Arahuay, when I visited).  They don't have enough
conventional systems to do their test sheets.

Now on line tests may make some/most of that need obsolete; but that
will take time for teachers to get used to.
   - Jim

On Mon, 2008-10-20 at 16:50 -0700, John Gilmore wrote:
 Note that much of the demand for printing comes from G1G1 users, who
 won't have a School Server (and are unlikely to have another Linux
 machine handy).
 
 I think the answer is probably to run the CUPS daemon when we need it,
 and kill it off when we don't (a la inetd).  
 
 As with everything else, I think we should strongly hew to what
 already works and what's already had tens of thousands of manhours
 invested in it, rather than reinventing the wheel and the GUI.  CUPS
 is administered through a browser, we have a browser, are we almost
 done yet?  :-)
 
   John
 
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Re: Fedora 10 for 9.1.0?

2008-10-15 Thread Jim Gettys
I agree with Marco, no distro-wars, pretty, please.  Where I sit,
Ubuntu's advantages have decreased, rather than increased over the last
couple years.  Even Mark Shuttleworth, when I last chatted with him
early this year, said it didn't make a significant difference.

The wider Sugar and software appropriate for kids is available, the
better we all are.
  - Jim


On Wed, 2008-10-15 at 13:41 +0200, Marco Pesenti Gritti wrote:
 On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 10:57 AM, Bert Freudenberg
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Am 15.10.2008 um 01:19 schrieb [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 
  the distro landscape has changed a bit in the last few
 years, is it
  worth
  considering a jump to Ubuntu if it has a better fit for your
 release
  cycle? at the very least it telegraphs the long-term support
 versions.
 
 
 
 Ubuntu also seems a much better fit in spirit than RedHat.
 
 
 No distribution wars plase :) Let's stay on topic...
 
 Marco
 
 
 
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Re: 5 sec boot

2008-10-05 Thread Jim Gettys
On Sat, 2008-10-04 at 16:32 -1000, Mitch Bradley wrote:

 I have considered something like that off and on.  It's sort of nice to 
 have a definite length for the images.  There are ways around that, but 
 they are a bit ugly at some level.  It's sort of a tossup at some level.
 
 One difficultly with having a lot of partitions is that it makes it more 
 likely that you will encounter the resizing issue.
 


Ubifs is built on the Ubi layer, which handles resizing (and does so in
the face of flash errors).

http://www.linux-mtd.infradead.org/doc/ubi.html#L_autoresize

Then again, since ubifs mounts quickly, the largest reason for
partitioning we've had (to reduce boot time) evaporates.  There may be
other reasons to want partitioning, given dynamic resizing a'la lvm,
however.

If we go to non-bare flash, of course, other solutions will have to be
found.
  - Jim

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Re: 5 sec boot

2008-10-05 Thread Jim Gettys
There is a C routine available for doing the initial read from the file
system.  We don't have to do it from scratch...

Bull.  Flag.  Red
 - Jim


On Sun, 2008-10-05 at 13:00 -0400, Chris Ball wrote:
 Hi,
 
 Then again, since ubifs mounts quickly, the largest reason for
 partitioning we've had (to reduce boot time) evaporates.  There may
 be other reasons to want partitioning, given dynamic resizing a'la
 lvm, however.
 
 You don't mention the fundamental reason that we need partitioning if we
 go to ubifs:  we need OFW to be able to boot the system, and it doesn't
 have an ubifs driver.
 
 - Chris.
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Re: 5 sec boot

2008-10-03 Thread Jim Gettys
Yes, but our biggest single component of boot time this instant is jffs2
mount (which happens twice during the boot sequence), not covered in
that work.

This is fixable in two ways; partially, by partitioning the flash (which
would remove one mount), or even better, by using Ubifs, which may be
ready for widespread use now.

The rest of it is mostly stuff that we either don't do or can avoid
doing, or have already prototyped (Mitch has had start up scripts in his
back pocket that may also be part of the equasion).

Deepak has begun work on Ubifs testing...
  - Jim


On Fri, 2008-10-03 at 15:24 +0200, NoiseEHC wrote:
 If you somehow missed it, there is possible to boot Linux in 5 seconds 
 on an EeePC.
 http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=s7NxCM8ryF8
 
 Here is the paper:
 http://www.fenrus.org/plumbers_fastboot.ppt
 
 Could somebody explain me whether these results are applicable to the 
 XO, and how far are we from it, please?
 

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Re: Walter Bender: Re: devkeys, prettyboot, and G1G1

2008-10-03 Thread Jim Gettys
On Fri, 2008-10-03 at 00:27 -0400, John Watlington wrote:
 How about providing dev. keys for G1G1 laptops with
 no delay ?Would you consider it an improvement ?

Clearly an improvement, as is the prettyboot patch, which I think we
should also do.
  - Jim

 
 wad
 
 On Oct 1, 2008, at 10:15 PM, John Gilmore wrote:
 
  Mitch and I have come up with a way to ship G1G1 laptops so that they
  will pretty-boot, but still come from the factory without any need
  for developer keys (in the Forth disable-security setting).
 
  This requires a small edit to /boot/olpc.fth in the OS build,
  to load the XO child image, freeze the screen, and put the
  first progress dot down just before jumping to Linux.  It's
  detailed here:
 
http://dev.laptop.org/ticket/7896
 
  I know the support crew would be much happier if G1G1 laptops were
  shipped able to run test builds and patched software, if users could
  interact with Forth to diagnose their hardware, if they could run
  unsigned Forth code from USB collector keys, etc.
 
  Unfortunately, an IRC discussion with Scott today revealed that the
  engineering team has decided that we *must* ship G1G1 laptops with a
  requirement for development keys.  The reason: because too many kids
  in the third world will be getting lockdown laptops, and we want the
  G1G1 recipients to be guinea pigs to debug the laptops, to be sure the
  laptops work even when locked down (and that they unlock properly when
  the kid requests a jailbreak key).
 
  I see this is utterly backwards.  The countries that want DRM on their
  laptops should be paying the price in support problems and
  infrastructure.  Not the donors who sponsor a G1G1 laptop, and not the
  free software community who donate to help push this project along.
  As believers in freedom, we shouldn't be defaulting EVERY laptop to
  being locked by its manufacturer.  Yet that's the argument: because
  some of them are locked, all of them must be locked.  Or perhaps it's
  slightly more nuanced: A country that orders thousands can order them
  without DRM, but G1G1 users can't.  That sounds reasonable, but I've
  interacted with several country teams (Nepal and South Pacific), who
  had come away from OLPC with the impression that it would be
  incredibly dangerous to turn off the security of the laptops.  In
  Nepal's case I was unable to disabuse them of this odd notion.  So no
  country asks for freedom in their laptop shipments, and no G1G1 is
  shipped with freedom, and thus every OLPC laptop is jailed, like every
  iPhone.
 
  John
 
  Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 08:34:09 -0400
  From: Walter Bender [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  To: John Gilmore [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Subject: Re: devkeys, prettyboot, and G1G1
  Cc: Mitch Bradley [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
  If Mitch is comfortable with his fix, I cannot see any reason not to
  ship developer keys with G1G1 machines--it would save everyone
  headaches, especially on support; but of course I cannot speak for
  OLPC these days.
 
  -walter
 
  On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 7:26 PM, John Gilmore [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  I recall discussing this last time but  don't recall the reasons not
  to do it this way. We did ship them all pre-activated.
 
  I questioned people after the fateful meeting, and it seemed to me
  that the problem was that Nicholas wanted pretty-boot, and Mitch was
  unwilling to try to disentangle pretty-boot from secure-boot.   
  Secure-boot
  was already a tangle of ugly Forth code, and he was sure that adding
  more complexity there would result in security holes or bugs.
 
  Since then, he has figured out the one-line circumvention that's
  documented in bug #7896.  The circumvention is in the OS (since OFW
  keeps no state).
 
 John
 
 
  -- 
  Walter Bender
  Sugar Labs
  http://www.sugarlabs.org
 
 
  [gnu: I also cc'd this to support-gang, but that required sending it
  from a different email address, due to how I am subscribed there.]
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Re: Is http://wiki.laptop.org/ down or vandalized?

2008-10-01 Thread Jim Gettys
Best guess is a success disaster: the server needs more RAM...

Henry's scrambling to upgrade the system.
- Jim


On Wed, 2008-10-01 at 08:13 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Is http://wiki.laptop.org/ down or vandalized?  Since about 10 PM PST  
 last night all I get is a blank page when I try to connect to the  
 home page.
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Re: idea for running out of RAM

2008-09-29 Thread Jim Gettys
Note that more current Linux kernels, such as that in 8.2, are much
better at being able to account for what process is using what memory.
It's probably worth a little experimentation after 8.2 ships to see if
the original concept is now viable.
   - Jim


On Mon, 2008-09-29 at 10:06 +0200, Tomeu Vizoso wrote:
 On Mon, Sep 29, 2008 at 2:07 AM, Walter Bender [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  So UI changes that help make this clearer will probably be a good idea
  for a 9.1 ... :-/
 
  There was an early sketch of a mechanism similar to the old Home View
  circle, where there was a space allocated to each open activity
  proportional to the amount of memory it was consuming. In any case, it
  is just as easy to make a bar graph as a pie chart...
 
 Dan Winship explained the issues with this approach here:
 http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Activity_ring .
 
 Regards,
 
 Tomeu
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Re: Stability and Memory Pressure in 8.2

2008-09-09 Thread Jim Gettys
There are four classes of things we can/should/could do:
1) understand where our memory is being used.  Individual bugs can have
a large effect.  Something stupid could be hurting us badly, and we
won't know unless we look.  What is more, we need to invest in tools
that allow us to monitor this.
2) there are some band-aids that have been discussed, such as rlimits,
which we can experiment with, and that *might* improve the situation
without the real solutions the next two items go into.
3) the oom killer's default algorithms are pretty terrible, taking
little into account in the choice of what gets killed.  Between
Sugar/Rainbow, and knowledge that the window manager has, one could do
much better.
4) we provide no end user feedback on memory usage, either.  We should
investigate whether revisiting our previous attempt to give such
feedback, now that Linux can provide much better information than it
could when we abandoned our previous donut attempt.  The users could
really help, if only we let them know a bit about what was going on...

In terms of priority: immediately examining what is going on with memory
usage in case we have a bad leak is clearly worthwhile (1).  We need to
budget for tool-building to monitor the situation going forward
immediately.

2) and *possibly* (a beginning on) 3 may be 8.2.1 fodder, but without
feedback from more users, we won't know if this isn't just keys under
the lamppost (e.g. our multiple bug reports about browse ooming because
of our amazingly stupid hardware wiki page, which is one of the most
egregious pages I've seen in recent memory.

Doing 3) pretty well I suspect is 9.1 fodder, but only if we start very
soon.  My gut tells me its some man-months of work.  We might get lucky
and should investigate if any of the embedded folks have something we
can use.  Unfortunately, the Nokia folks I had thought might have
something didn't, when I last checked a year ago.  But we can/should
check a bit first before diving in; it's a year later.
http://dev.laptop.org/ticket/1995

I urge we investigate quickly whether 4) is, in fact, feasible, so that
it can go on the Sugar roadmap in time to be done for 9.1.
- Jim


On Tue, 2008-09-09 at 13:02 +0200, Tomeu Vizoso wrote:
 On Tue, Sep 9, 2008 at 6:10 AM, Michael Stone [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
   * We need to find out why the oom-killer is not killing things fast
 enough. Based on our results, we might consider configuring
 /proc/$pid/oom_adj to preferentially kill some processes (e.g., the
 foreground [or background?] activities.)
 
 Any reason why killing first activities' processes wouldn't solve the
 stability issue? AFAIK, we haven't seen OOM conditions without any
 activity open.
 
 Just in case, I'm not saying that isn't worth to do any of the other
 things on your list.
 
 Regards,
 
 Tomeu
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Re: Stability and Memory Pressure in 8.2

2008-09-09 Thread Jim Gettys
On Tue, 2008-09-09 at 13:10 -0400, Daniel Drake wrote:
 On Tue, 2008-09-09 at 00:10 -0400, Michael Stone wrote:
  - whether we can get Browse to behave intelligently when it receives
BadAlloc errors from X?
 
 I have no doubt that Browse/xulrunner has room for improvement with
 memory usage but this is not where you should be looking. These BadAlloc
 messages are true errors generated when the application requests pixmaps
 outside of the coordinate range accepted by X (this is well
 documented). 
 
 This is a real bug in the code, not a memory pressure issue. Such
 requests should never be generated, and the application crashing is
 probably the behaviour we want.

For the specific BadAlloc of the page in our wiki, it is not coordinate
out of range, but that the images on that page are so huge as to cause X
to get a allocation failure from the OS, and that gets reflected back to
the client.  Otherwise we'd have gotten a BadValue error.  At one point,
X11 was pretty carefully checked to work in the face of failures to
allocate memory (dunno how true that is today).

Whether Firefox should be so silly as to even be asking (the images are
huge) and asking the X server to rescale them (also very questionable)
is something that can/should be taken up with the Firefox folks, but not
something we're going to (be able) to fix on our own.  The embedded
mozilla folks (there are such people at long last) are the logical
people to own this headache.
   - Jim

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Re: Google Chrome activity?

2008-09-03 Thread Jim Gettys
I would not presume that Google Chrome's memory usage is worse than
existing browsers (though thankfully firefox 3 has recently lowered the
bar a lot); it has the advantage of throwing away entire address spaces,
avoiding some of the memory fragmentation problems that have bedeviled
other browsers.

So I'm taking a wait and see attitude.  But first, let someone else
do the basic Linux port, and then we can measure
 - Jim


On Wed, 2008-09-03 at 09:02 -0400, Ton van Overbeek wrote:
 Christoph Derndorfer wrote:
  On 9/3/08, [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]* [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  On Wed, 3 Sep 2008, Christoph Derndorfer wrote:
 
  Anyone here motivated to turn Chrome into an activity?
 
 
  don't we need to wait until they have a linux version out? my
  understanding is that the current release is windows only.
 
   
  Ah, I must have missed that than, thought it was multi-platform... :-(
   
  Thanks,
  Christoph
 
 The open source project is on http://dev.chromium.org.
 There are instructions for a Linux build, but it has the following warning:
 
 Note: There is /no/ working Chromium-based browser on Linux. Although 
 many Chromium submodules build under Linux and a few unit tests pass, 
 all that runs is a command-line all tests pass executable.
 
 
 Anyway, since it really targets the high-end (each tab running its own 
 process with own virtual machine for JS etc.)
 I doubt it will run nicely on the XO.
 The renderer is based on WebKit.
 
 Ton van Overbeek
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Touchpad improvements and activities using pointer (mouse) motion....

2008-09-03 Thread Jim Gettys
Richard Smith has fixed some bad performance problems in the embedded
controller, that talks to the touch pad, now in the latest firmware in
joyride and the 8.2 stream.

The consequences are that the touch pad is reporting many real mouse
motion events, as you move your finger on the touch pad.  These were
previously getting dropped on the floor in 8.1 and before, and causing
many of our touch pad behavior problems.

This improved behavior, strangely, can pose performance problems for
incorrectly written activities that ask for mouse motion events; paint
programs are a classic example. If you can't keep up with the rate at
which pointer (mouse) motion events are delivered,  and you get more
events, your application can fall further and further behind, causing
bad laggy behavior.  Having improved our touchpad, we're now exposing
some of these issues due to the increased number of events.

In days of yore on slower machines this was a common problem, so the
window system has provisions for it.  Many current developers on fast
machines do not see this often on current fast desktops/laptops, so it
many have forgotten about the solutions.

X has what is called mouse motion compression; in the GTK toolkit, it is
invoked by:

The gtk.gdk.POINTER_MOTION_HINT_MASK is a special mask which is used to
reduce the number of gtk.gdk.MOTION_NOTIFY events received. Normally a
gtk.gdk.MOTION_NOTIFY event is received each time the mouse moves.
However, if the application spends a lot of time processing the event
(updating the display, for example), it can easily lag behind the
position of the mouse. When using the gtk.gdk.POINTER_MOTION_HINT_MASK
the server will only send a single gtk.gdk.MOTION_NOTIFY event (which is
marked as a hint) until the application asks for more, by calling the
gtk.gdk.Window.get_pointer() method.

You can find the full description in
http://www.pygtk.org/docs/pygtk/class-gdkevent.html

Techniques for handling the issue:
1) by far the best approach, when possible, is to make your pointer
(mouse) handler very light, then do recomputation and drawing in an idle
handler
2) The get_pointer technique using the above POINTER_MOTION_HINT_MASK,
to poll at the rate your application can keep up. But best is to drop
the result from get_pointer() on the floor and forget that it's
overloaded in the X protocol and just pretend that you called
GiveMeAnotherEvent
3)  Another technique, rather than doing get_pointer, is to peek in the
event queue to see if the next event is also a pointer motion event, and
use the later event if it is still a pointer motion event, using
gdk_event_peek.

My thanks to Owen Taylor for refreshing my cache and telling me the GTK
idioms.

Note that X also has a facility to record the full stream of mouse
motion coordinates as well, if you want the precise timestamped path the
pointer followed between events.  The XGetMotionEvents call can be used
to get that path, at whatever hardware resolution the hardware was able
to provide.  Note that the X server/driver may have compressed some
sequential motion events together to begin with.

- Jim

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Re: CSound server questions

2008-08-28 Thread Jim Gettys
John,

We cannot use code from Barry since he tends to work by himself, his
code is unmaintainable except by him and its licensing has also been
somewhat questionable at times, though the licening problems may have
been addressed..  Were he to be run over by a truck (God forbid!), we'd
be in a complete pickle.

The community CSound, that Victor leads, is widely used and supported by
a large community of people.

Previous objections of CSound bloat (by things like the public csound
using the TK/TCL internally to the CSound library) have been addressed
by Victor, who now has (at configure time) a version of CSound5 built
out of the same source pool that drops those dependencies.

You can be sure that *anything* that runs on the CSound lite we run on
OLPC will run on the public full CSound used in the music community; it
is an *exact* subset of the full CSound used by everyone except Barry.

So we are also in a very much better compatibility situation than using
Barry's version.

Hope this explanation helps.
 - Jim


On Wed, 2008-08-27 at 06:42 -0400, John Maloney wrote:
 Thanks for the info.
 
 I had the impression that Barry Vercoe was working on a new, light- 
 weight CsoundServer. Is that not true?
 
   -- John
 
 On Aug 27, 2008, at 5:15 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  There is no CsoundServer anymore; we use Csound as a library
  through its API. If anyone wants some help on how to use it, to
  play MIDI or anything else, he/she can talk to me, privately or
  on this list. I'm away to ICMC at the moment, so replies might
  be slow. But I'll give as much help as I can.
 
  Regards
 
  Victor
 
  - Original Message -
  From: Chris Ball [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Date: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 11:35 pm
  Subject: Re: CSound server questions
  To: C. Scott Ananian [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Cc: John Maloney [EMAIL PROTECTED], devel@lists.laptop.org
 
   Hi,
  
   Did you ever get a satisfactory answer to your
   questions?  I think
   Pippy contains the best examples of using csound
   to play sounds --
   is that right, Chris?
  
   Well, I'd say that TamTam does.  :)  But yes, Pippy
   does some basic
   synthesis using sinewaves and music files with csound.
  
   - Chris.
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Re: [OLPC Security] permissions for setting scheduler policy

2008-08-14 Thread Jim Gettys
A typical solution is, when you are about to start the process, invoke a
different (very small, so it can be audited) process that can set what
you need as root, and then drop the privileges before execing the real
image that does the work.

But Michael may have something else in mind for Rainbow.
- Jim


On Wed, 2008-08-13 at 11:21 +0100, Victor Lazzarini wrote:
 Hello everyone,
 
 I am working on trying to get better RT performance
 off csound. I have added some code to set the
 scheduler policy and priority, but the problem is
 that I can only use it as root.
 
 As user olpc, the scheduler code will not be allowed
 to set the policy and priority.
 
 It'd be ideal if activities using csound could take
 advantage of this code, because it seems to help
 performance. We could set up group permissions
 for that in /etc/security/limits.conf
 
 What are your thoughts (esp. Deepak and Daniel D)?
 
 Dr Victor Lazzarini
 Senior Lecturer
 Music Technology Laboratory, Music Department
 National University of Ireland, Maynooth 
 
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Re: New system firmware to test

2008-08-14 Thread Jim Gettys
Joel,

Please request an MP system via the developer's program.

In fact, this is true for anyone who got prototypes from us that doesn't
yet have an MP system.  Having good developers testing against old
hardware doesn't help testing.
- Jim


On Thu, 2008-08-14 at 11:55 -0400, Richard A. Smith wrote:
 Joel Stanley wrote:
  On Thu, Aug 14, 2008 at 4:55 PM, Richard A. Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  People who enjoy testing firmware please do so.
  
  My touchpad was unusable.  B3, 703.  If I was lucky, I could get the
  cursor to move ~5cm every minute (most of the time it didn't move).
  
  I tried rebooting, and doing the 4-finger trick, but the issue
  persisted.  Reflashed back to q2d14 and the touchpad works fine.
  
  I haven't been keeping up with things, so there's not a known
  incompatibility with the old kernels?
 
 Reflash again and test several full power cycles. ie no battery  no ext 
 power.  The act of reflashing forces a calibrate to happen.
 
 There are no touchpad related changes in the new EC code.  All of the 
 touchpad driver changes are via the kernel.  So if you have an old 
 kernel you have the old touchpad driver.
 
 I'm not sure that testing on a B3 is worth much.  I think A different 
 touchpad firmware was in use then.
 
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Re: OLPC Hosting Application: Fedora on XO

2008-08-14 Thread Jim Gettys
Robert,

It isn't clear (yet) if something gnomeish or xfce is best, given the
target audience (G1G1 users, rather than kids). We'll see.  Hackers are
a different audience than most G1G1 users we've had; certainly xfce is
fine for most of us.  Only experimentation will tell if a more full
fledged Gnome is feasible for RAM footprint reasons or not. 

But most of the point of this is to make installation really easy: to do
that, we'd like a customized fedora spin that can fit in flash
(co-resident with our usual software), so that installation will not
require external media. Most G1G1 end users who get systems can't handle
a long set of instructions such as your page outlines; by making a
fedora spin, we can get the installation down to olpc-update fedora or
some such one line command with in place installation.  Sebastian has
shown that we can make a spin that is small enough.

Our other goal is, until nirvana arrives (praying it does) and the OLPC
distro is a proper subset of fedora without any broken dependencies,
that it be a fedora spin, so that what a user gets is exactly a version
of fedora, rather than something that may have brokenness if various
software is installed on top of the 8.2.0 release. It's too late in that
release cycle to try to get to nirvana for 8.2.0, and is probably 9.1
fodder.  This is for support reasons: we don't want to have to deal with
thousands of support calls


The discussion of this is taking place on the fedora-olpc-list at redhat
com list.

In any case, thanks for all your help!

Best regards,
 - Jim

On Thu, 2008-08-14 at 11:22 -0500, Robert Myers wrote:
 Sebastian,
 
  4. Longer description   : we're going to provide a Fedora-based
   : traditional linux desktop environment
   : for the XO. if we can, we'd like in allow
   : a parallel installation of this and sugar.
  
 
 Sorry, but I don't understand the need for this repository. XFCE is 
 already in common use to provide a more traditional windowing desktop 
 for the XO. Its use is covered on the Wiki http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Xfce;.
 
 XFCE seems to be a good fit for the XO, full featured enough to support 
 most traditional applications, conventional enough to suit the desire 
 for a non-Sugar solution, and light enough to install easily.  Gnome or 
 KDE seem like too much, and the other lightweight environments look a 
 little strange to me.
 
 The XFCE page suffers from some poor editing, competing solutions, and a 
 failure of the instructions to keep up with changes on the XO, but that 
 would seem to be able to be handled there.
 
 Bob
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Re: Loading the OSS modules on the XO

2008-08-13 Thread Jim Gettys
I thought there was a library/shim/kernel option that allowed us to
emulate OSS on ALSA?

In any case, anything not using ALSA at this date really should get
updated to ALSA
 - Jim



On Wed, 2008-08-13 at 10:43 -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 shivaprasad wrote:
   Its OK if I need to have root permissions only once right? I can change the
 
 yes.
 
   /etc/modules/ once during installation of the activity and need not load 
 the
   module every time I run the activity. I am new programming on Linux and
   wasnt sure what to change to make the XO load the oss module on startup. So
   my plan is if I  know how to make the XO load the  oss modules  I can do
   this in a script and run the script during installation of the activity so
   that when I launch the activity I would not need root permission.Could you
   please tell me how to change /etc/modules to load oss modules on startup?
 
 the file /etc/modules that erik mentioned isn't used on the XO, but
 there's a similar mechanism in place.
 
 create a new file /etc/sysconfig/modules, with a name that ends
 in .modules, like oss.modules.  that file should be an executable
 shell script which will load the modules you want.  see the existing
 olpc-1.modules file in that directory as an example, but probably
 all you need is a single modprobe snd-pcm-oss command.
 
 this should cause your module to be installed when the XO boots.
 
 paul
 
   
   Thanks
   Shivaprasad
   
   On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 6:54 PM, Erik Garrison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   
On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 06:16:58PM +0530, shivaprasad javali wrote:
 Hi,

I am porting a application to the XO. It uses the OSS sound Api's to
 render sound. I found that the oss modules are not loaded on the xo by
 default. I was able to load the oss modules by running modprobe
snd-pcm-oss
 which created the /dev/dsp and other device files required by the oss
 modules and was able to run my application on the XO. But the problem 
 is
 every time I reboot the XO I will have to run the commands and load the
oss
 modules.

Is there any way I can tell the XO to always load the oss modules?
Even
 if I have a script to run the commands on launching the application 
 these
 commands would require super user privileges which I wont have when I
launch
 the application from the activity bar. Any Ideas?
   
Without root access, your activity will have difficulty modifying
/etc/modules to enable autoloading the snd-pcm-oss module at boot.  I am
unsure if there is any way around this issue unless the deployment scope
for your activity is a set of machines on which you have root access.
   
Erik
   
   part 2 text/plain 129
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 =-
  paul fox, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: jackd on OLPC?

2008-08-13 Thread Jim Gettys

On Wed, 2008-08-13 at 17:42 +0100, victor wrote:
 Ah. Well, since it is there, then I might as well test it and
 then report my findings. Jack is seen as more specialised/pro
 than pulseaudio by the linux audio guys.


Yup.  But jackd is local machine only, and we want to be able to do
things on OLPC exploiting network transparency (which pulseaudio is...).
   - Jim

 Regards
 
 Victor
 
 - Original Message - 
 From: Daniel Drake [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: victor [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Cc: devel@lists.laptop.org
 Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 5:33 PM
 Subject: Re: jackd on OLPC?
 
 
  On Wed, 2008-08-13 at 16:54 +0100, victor wrote:
  Noting a couple of lines for jackuser group in limits.conf made me
  search
  around and I found that libjack  jackd are present in the laptop
  system.
  
  Can't comment on future plans, but I can explain the present:
  portaudio is pulled in through espeak, which we require.
  We don't really want or use portaudio, but that's the way it is.
  
  In F9, portaudio grew a dependency on jack, so we get that too. In other
  words, these things are only in our builds unintentionally.
  
  Daniel
  
  
 
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Re: [Server-devel] not up for Friday meeting about the XS

2008-08-07 Thread Jim Gettys


On Fri, 2008-08-08 at 08:48 +1200, Martin Langhoff wrote:
 On Fri, Aug 8, 2008 at 3:48 AM, Greg Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  I'm OK with reschedule. How about next week at the same time?
 
  Hope you feel better soon.
 
 Same here. Postpone 7 days? Can Jim make it too next week?
I think so.
  - Jim

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Re: Evince (was Re: New joyride build 2222)

2008-07-31 Thread Jim Gettys
On Wed, 2008-07-30 at 18:28 -0400, Chris Marshall wrote:
 S Page wrote:
  Mikus Grinbergs wrote:
 
  Noticed that sugar-evince 2.20.1.1-3.olpc3 brought in
  poppler 0.6.2-5.olpc3, which is 3 MB.
 
  I think 8.1.0 and 8.1.1 have the same dependency (on 
  poppler-0.6.2.4-olpc2).  Evince needs Poppler to render PDFs. 
  http://live.gnome.org/Evince/SupportedDocumentFormats
 
  Speaking of Evince, does Read support DjVu in 8.2.0? 
  http://djvu.org/docs/ has some test files.
  http://dev.laptop.org/ticket/2448 says yes, but 
  http://dev.laptop.org/ticket/6223 and http://dev.laptop.org/ticket/6426 
  suggest no.
  I don't care, except that http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Image_file_formats 
  presents DjVu as OLPC's preferred e-book file format.
 
 I have to vote that I do care.  DjVu is much more efficiently rendered
 at high resolution being designed for that purpose.  In fact, DjVu format
 is efficient enough that often a direct scan of a document at 300dpi
 compressed to DjVu format is smaller and faster displayed than a PDF
 file of the same document.  I believe some timings were reported in
 a previous thread around the bug ticket: #6223.  A look at the
 ticket indicates it has been pushed back to 9.1.0.
 
 --Chris
 

Things not in trac tend to get forgotten  Is it in trac?  If so,
what bug?
  - Jim

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Re: Remarks on the Work of Sugar

2008-07-23 Thread Jim Gettys
On Wed, 2008-07-23 at 12:28 +1200, Martin Langhoff wrote:

 
 I wouldn't encourage http :-)
 

I actively discourage http It conceptually mixes layering in a
horrific fashion...  

HTTP does have some major features: in particular, that the default
behavior allowing extensions is to ignore what you don't understand,
which in a network environment, is the correct default (since you can't
upgrade both ends of the connection at once).  But it has the opposite
problem (which has consequences about 1/10'th as often); no good way to
require the other end understand messages that are not upward
compatible...
 - Jim


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Re: For review: NAND out of space patch.

2008-07-22 Thread Jim Gettys
Ah, I like this idea better than the previous I've heard; if we can
uninstall software or cleanup the journal with human intervention, that
would be good  I'm nervous about automatic cleanup schemes
   - Jim


On Tue, 2008-07-22 at 13:20 -0400, Erik Garrison wrote:
 On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 12:53:37PM -0300, John Watlington wrote:
  
  On Jul 22, 2008, at 12:06 PM, Chris Ball wrote:
  
   Hi,
  
   Can you walk me through the exact steps that the user would
   experience if this script was installed?
  
   They wouldn't see anything different, but Journal entries  
   corresponding
   to files we chose to delete wouldn't resume properly.
  
   In terms of which files, I think the oldest (or maybe LRU as they
   say in caches) would be better than the largest. Can we do that
   (e.g. delete oldest then iterate until x MBs is free)?
  
   I disagree; I don't think we're filling up with small Write or Paint
   documents, my intuition is that we're filling up with recent large
   downloads and movies.  In the case where the problem is a huge  
   download
   the user just made, your scheme results in deleting *everything*.
  
   Since we disagree, maybe best to wait until we have some disk-full
   images back from the field so that we can see what used up all the
   space, before deciding the algorithm.
  
  I'm getting three images right now.
  
  One of the machines booted, but wouldn't allow any activities to launch
  (which since you can't log in on vttys kinda locks down the machine).
  But I did notice a large number of non-standard activities (e.g. Doom).
 
 This sounds familiar.  I think several teachers from Uruguay have
 mentioned on the Sur list that their students love to download software
 and have filled up their storage space.  I'll try to find the reference.
 I have also heard the same from a contractor in Uruguay who has been
 involved in distribution (via #olpc-ayuda).
 
 Today I am going to test a solution in which we union-mount a tmpfs over
 top of a full root filesystem (which is effectively read-only).  This
 should allow us to boot, but obviously any changes made to the tmpfs
 during the session will be lost.  Provided we can boot in this scheme,
 we should immediately open a dialogue which asks the user to select
 Activities to delete.
 
 I think that such a 'recovery-mode' is ultimately the best we're going
 to do to help resolve this issue.  We must provide students a way to
 manage their systems, and to do so even in a NAND-full state, or the
 solution to NAND-full will continue to be centralized and costly.  If it
 is not something that we ship immediately to help resolve the issue in
 Uruguay, the current situation demonstrates that it is a worthwhile
 target for future releasese.
 
 Erik
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Re: For review: NAND out of space patch.

2008-07-22 Thread Jim Gettys
The simplest UI would be a size-sorted view of the journal.
 - Jim


On Tue, 2008-07-22 at 14:26 -0400, Erik Garrison wrote:
 On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 01:58:29PM -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  jim wrote:
Ah, I like this idea better than the previous I've heard; if we can
uninstall software or cleanup the journal with human intervention, that
would be good  I'm nervous about automatic cleanup schemes
  
  i agree that erik's proposal sounds attractive, since we'd have
  most or all of the real UI available to assist in presenting
  the user's choices.  but even if this scheme doesn't pan out,
  i still think we could do something interesting by inserting a
  hook (via a patch) into .xsession which lets us run something
  non-sugary (but still interactive) prior to full startup.
 
 Right.  The recovery-mode ui can be anything.
 
 I'm going to work on the unionfs side of things.  Is there anyone
 available to work on the recovery-mode ui interface?
 
 Rough plan: On registering a full system at boot, we union-mount tmpfs
 over top of the root filesystem (mounted read-only).  We set a flag
 which tells olpc-session or Sugar to boot a graphical interface to a
 cleanup utility.  We additionally mount the root fs at some location
 read-write so that we can delete files from it, and point the cleanup
 utility at this location.
 
 Erik
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Re: NAND out of space crash

2008-07-21 Thread Jim Gettys
There are two issues here that we should be sure to not intertwingle:

1) whatever behavior Sugar may have when low/out of space, during
operation, or at boot time.

2) JFFS2's behavior when the file system is almost full.  When it gets
almost full, it can spend all its time trying to garbage collect, and
you can lose completely (the system sort of gets the slows, and grinds
to a halt).

As to 2), there are patches done by Nokia (deployed on the N800 and
similar devices) that reserve some extra space and report out of space
before the system gets the slows.  These are in Dave's incoming queue
to merge into JFFS2 the last I heard.  I don't know if he's merged them.
- Jim




On Mon, 2008-07-21 at 13:45 -0300, John Watlington wrote:
 I think this is a huge problem.   Here in Uruguay they are seeing
 a flood of machines with this problem, and it will only get worse
 over time (and we will encounter this in every other deployment
 soon.)
 
 They desperately need a fix...
 
 wad
 
 On Jul 21, 2008, at 12:55 PM, Greg Smith wrote:
 
  Hi All,
 
  I found http://dev.laptop.org/ticket/7125 which looks like a good  
  place
  to track this problem.
 
  I marked it blocker for 8.2.0.
 
  Here's what I think we need:
  - Sugar GUI always starts, no matter how much space is free on the  
  NAND.
  - If Sugar starts and you are low on space (exact size tbd) then we
  should alert the user to start clearing space in the journal.
 
  I think Eben will work on the second part. Can someone solve the first
  part?
 
  Suggested steps would be to propose a solution, get buy in, code it  
  and
  check it in.
 
  I shouldn't have mentioned partitioning :-( All I meant was that we
  cannot solve this on upgrade by whacking all user data.
 
  Thanks,
 
  Greg S
 
  Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 12:39:04 -0400
  From: Erik Garrison [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Subject: Re: NAND out of space crash (was Display warnings in sugar
 (Emiliano Pastorino))
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Cc: devel@lists.laptop.org
  Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
 
  On Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 11:47:21AM -0400, Greg Smith wrote:
  Hi All,
 
  Emiliano has an elegant workaround but crashing the XO on NAND  
  full (to
  un-recoverable state?) is a heinous bug that affects essentially  
  all users.
 
  If someone has the bug ID handy can you send it out and mark it a
  blocker for 8.2.0 (priority = blocker and keyword includes blocks: 
  8.2.0)?
 
  Can I get a design proposal (no re-partitioning please!), scoping  
  and
  lead engineer on it ASAP?
 
  If you have to stop working on something else to do this, let me  
  know
  what will drop and I'll help weigh the consequences.
 
  My impression is that the long-term benefits of partitioning mean  
  that
  it's worthwhile to devote effort to it.  Are we not going to work on
  partitioning in the future?
 
  In addition to a more solid solution to the NAND fillup issue, we get
  the opportunity to improve system performance and upgrade procedures.
  Partitioning will allow us to test out LZO data compression for  
  the XO's
  filesystems (excluding /boot and /security).  We would expect a
  significant i/o performance boost from the use of LZO.  Additionally,
  partitioning would improve OFW-level system updates (e.g. copy- 
  nand) by
  making it far simpler for the update procedure to leave user data
  intact.
 
  That said there are obviously a lot of troubles with partitioning.
  Updating an existing system to a partitioned one without mashing user
  data is a major issue.
 
  Erik
 
 
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Re: NAND out of space crash

2008-07-21 Thread Jim Gettys
On Mon, 2008-07-21 at 09:51 -0700, Deepak Saxena wrote:
 On Jul 21 2008, at 13:39, C. Scott Ananian was caught saying:
   2) JFFS2's behavior when the file system is almost full.  When it gets
   almost full, it can spend all its time trying to garbage collect, and
   you can lose completely (the system sort of gets the slows, and grinds
   to a halt).
  
   As to 2), there are patches done by Nokia (deployed on the N800 and
   similar devices) that reserve some extra space and report out of space
   before the system gets the slows.  These are in Dave's incoming queue
   to merge into JFFS2 the last I heard.  I don't know if he's merged them.
  
  These are less critical, IMO.  I have filled up NAND, and the slows
  are not debilitating.  The issues above are. We should encourage Dave
  to fix this issue and the other known JFFS2 bugs (trac #6480, for
  instance)  -- or get dsaxena to do so -- for 9.1.
 
 #6480 is fixed as of yesterday, should be in next joyride.
 
 I'll be re-doing Nokia's patches so that they go upstream if we still want
 them after 8.2 is out; however, I don't think the approach used by them 
 actually 
 helps us.  We already have a very limited amount of storage space and 
 reserving 
 space for the root user just reduces what the end user can actually use.

IIRC, the issue is the GC runs more and more often the closer to full
you run.  By reserving some space, you avoid the performance cliff.

Since we expect to be running nearly full most of the time, it would
seem to me avoiding this cliff is important.

 
 I think analyzing performance of non-JFFS2 file systems and picking
 a replacement should be a high-priority item for 9.1 update.

No argument here
  - Jim

 
 ~Deepak
 
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Re: gnome-vfs2 / GConf2 / dbus

2008-07-21 Thread Jim Gettys
In general,  gnome is moving away from Bonobo/Orbit toward dbus based
messaging.
 - Jim


On Mon, 2008-07-21 at 20:09 +0200, Marco Pesenti Gritti wrote:
 On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 7:59 PM, Daniel Drake [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  On Mon, 2008-07-21 at 13:28 -0400, Jim Gettys wrote:
  The bonobo-activation-server likes to chew up 40mb (of RAM), for doing
  almost nothing.
 
  ORBit doesn't appear to depend on any bonobo components. And we've
  successfully kicked bonobo out of the build.
 
 It's bonobo that depends on ORBit, I guess the fear here is that, as
 bonobo, GConf might use a lot of memory because of ORBit. It should
 not be hard to measure.
 
 Marco
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Re: gnome-vfs2 / GConf2 / dbus

2008-07-21 Thread Jim Gettys
On Mon, 2008-07-21 at 20:25 +0200, Marco Pesenti Gritti wrote:
 On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 8:16 PM, Jim Gettys [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  In general,  gnome is moving away from Bonobo/Orbit toward dbus based
  messaging.
 
 Yeah, there is no plan yet (that I know of) to replace GConf with
 something dbus based though :(

Dunno current plans...

There does seem to be code

http://developer.imendio.com/projects/misc/gconf-dbus
- Jim

 
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Re: Code name for 9.1.0

2008-07-16 Thread Jim Gettys
Absence of dissent does not mean agreement.  It often means some people
are just tired of the topic and will find the topic frustrating to chime
in on; I know this to be true for some of us.

I must say I'm tired of us changing our naming scheme again and again.
We've gone from build numbers, to ship.x, to update.x, to the current
numbering scheme. I'm not convinced that having a code name in addition
to a numbering scheme adds much, though I have little objection to the
particular scheme being proposed here.

But I'd like to defer this discussion/decision until we've figured out
who will be doing the release job for 9.1.0; that person's opinion
should weigh more than most in the discussion. Hopefully we'll get this
settled on in the next week or two.

Them that does, has the most say, in my book
 - Jim


On Tue, 2008-07-15 at 13:11 -0600, Jameson Chema Quinn wrote:
 Well, actually, the mango suggestion was made originally as a tree,
 not a fruit - as the tree Freire learned to read underneath. Obviously
 the concept of learning under a tree exists in many cultures around
 the world, and there are several trees that would work for this:
 
 apple (newton), bodhi/banyan/fig/pipal/Ashvastha (buddha), juniper
 (navajo), buttonwood (wall street), blossoming
 pear (african-american - from their eyes were watching god),
 mulberry (china/silk), baobab, thorn tree
 
 I definitely sympathize with the general fruit and alphabetical is
 nice threads here. Verbs are good too. And the above list, even if we
 managed to triple it, would still be a little too thin to make such
 wordplay easy. But even if we decide against a list like the above, I
 would still advocate for starting with mango, and then going
 alphabetical later (as Ubuntu did). The Freire story is a good one,
 and mango is such a fun word to say.
 
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Re: Help! Summarizing the xulrunner situation in OLPC

2008-07-16 Thread Jim Gettys
Daniel,

It is quiet possible we'll want to pick up gnomevfs2 as a basic library
in a future release (think about the OLPCfs method of accessing the
journal).  We didn't want the old gnomevfs library since that pulled in
the old bonobo horror as a dependency. I'm not familiar with libgnome,
and therefore have no opinion there.
   - Jim


On Wed, 2008-07-16 at 13:00 -0400, Daniel Drake wrote:
 On Wed, 2008-07-16 at 12:43 -0400, Greg Dekoenigsberg wrote:
  3. These dependencies will be coming back someday in the upstream, when 
  Mozilla makes these hard dependencies instead of soft dependencies.
 
 Are you saying that, in future, it will not be possible to compile a
 xulrunner without printing support? What about the libgnome/gnomevfs
 dependencies?
 
  If this analysis is correct, it forces us to answer some key questions.
  
  1. Space.  What are the real space requirements for the xulrunner 
  dependencies?  Do we have any hard numbers that we can analyze?  Is it 
  reasonable to carry all of the dependencies along in OLPC?  How were the 
  decisions made to leave out certain pieces of the xulrunner dependency 
  chain, and can those decisions be revisited?
 
 So far, I don't think we've been considering space footprints for
 specific packages. Instead, we have been considering our OS build as a
 whole: we want to limit it to 300mb, and our F9 builds are currently
 45mb overweight. http://dev.laptop.org/ticket/7353
 
 I recently modified OLPC-3 xulrunner to remove dependencies on libgnome
 and gnomevfs2. Once Dennis has had a chance to review my work to remove
 libgnome deps from other packages too, a huge dependency chain
 (including metacity, icon themes, and plenty more) will fall out of the
 build. Therefore it is quite important that OLPC's xulrunner continues
 to avoid it's dependency on libgnome.
 
 Daniel
 
 
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Re: Help! Summarizing the xulrunner situation in OLPC

2008-07-16 Thread Jim Gettys
On Wed, 2008-07-16 at 19:48 +0200, Marco Pesenti Gritti wrote:
 On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 7:44 PM, Jim Gettys [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Daniel,
 
  It is quiet possible we'll want to pick up gnomevfs2 as a basic library
  in a future release (think about the OLPCfs method of accessing the
  journal).  We didn't want the old gnomevfs library since that pulled in
  the old bonobo horror as a dependency. I'm not familiar with libgnome,
  and therefore have no opinion there.
 
 I guess you mean gvfs. (gnome-vfs2 is the old one). libgnome is
 gradually being deprecated too afaik.

ah, ok, I was confused.
   - Jim

 
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Re: B4 motherboard question

2008-07-15 Thread Jim Gettys
You should definitely get a new system.  We aren't set up to handle
motherboards separately.

And now we are in production, people should be much less shy about
asking for developer machines in general; before production started we
had limited numbers of prototypes, but this is not a concern and we have
more machines allocated for developers than current demand.
   - Jim


On Mon, 2008-07-14 at 10:37 -0400, Guylhem Aznar wrote:
 Hello
 
 I wouldn't necessarily want another machine - just a motherboard from
 say a machine that has been returned with a broken screen, or
 whatever, would be fine
 
 A fully working XO  would be best used for someone who hasn't one yet IMHO.
 
 Anyway, I'll drop a message
 
 Thanks
 Guylhem
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Re: (another) WebKit port of Browse

2008-07-08 Thread Jim Gettys
Let me summarize where I think we are and/or should go and try to put
this into some context:

0) good rendering onto our high resolution screen is very important to
us; this is why we went with a Gecko based web browser in the first
place.  Before we moved to the development builds of gecko/xulrunner, we
had terrible issues with many web site's rendering. I don't know whether
or not WebKit supports scaling at this date, but it is a question well
worth asking.  This new version of Gecko etc. are slated for our next
release and are in current development builds. What is WebKit's current
capability?

1) memory usage is a very high concern to us.  The recent work on
FF/Gecko's memory consumption and leak plugging (as reported all over
the web) is outstanding, and they should be commended for this work.
This improvement should be reflected in the current development build.
And this has a major impact on our usability.

2) the lack of a certificate UI has hampered our Browse usage primarily
in G1G1 developed world situations: this tells me while it is of
concern, it's not as high priority as some other issues might be,
certainly lower than 0) or 1).  This could be satisfied by adding UI to
browse, I believe.

3) Sayamindu has made good progress toward swapping out Matchbox in
favor of a conventional window manager; once this is complete, we can
satisfy 2) at worst, by those who need it installing a standard Firefox;
one could go up from there by using a Sugar theme, to XUL chrome
modifications of arbitrary ambition; or installing your favorite web
browser of choice.  This work to replace Matchbox won't make this
release, but I expect be planned on thereafter.

4) alternative browsers are always welcome; but, to make it as our
default browser, it needs to:
- address our rendering concerns for our screen.
- have competitive memory performance
- provide sharing features for classroom work (note that
providing only an unmodified conventional browser won't 
currently have these facilities).
Additional goodness would be to have a single HTML rendering engine for
everything, to save flash space, and the certificate UI we're missing.

I can also anticipate Javascript performance may become an issue as its
use continues to increase.

 - Jim

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Re: (another) WebKit port of Browse

2008-07-08 Thread Jim Gettys
Oh, and as Walter points out, journal integration is also important to
us, and necessary in any replacement.  Sometimes brain is not engaged.

If we can build the OLPCfs stuff that Scott has come up with, this will
help unmodified apps interoperate with the journal, but I suspect for
something like browse, we'd want pretty full integration.
- Jim


On Tue, 2008-07-08 at 12:32 -0400, Jim Gettys wrote:
 Let me summarize where I think we are and/or should go and try to put
 this into some context:
 
 0) good rendering onto our high resolution screen is very important to
 us; this is why we went with a Gecko based web browser in the first
 place.  Before we moved to the development builds of gecko/xulrunner, we
 had terrible issues with many web site's rendering. I don't know whether
 or not WebKit supports scaling at this date, but it is a question well
 worth asking.  This new version of Gecko etc. are slated for our next
 release and are in current development builds. What is WebKit's current
 capability?
 
 1) memory usage is a very high concern to us.  The recent work on
 FF/Gecko's memory consumption and leak plugging (as reported all over
 the web) is outstanding, and they should be commended for this work.
 This improvement should be reflected in the current development build.
 And this has a major impact on our usability.
 
 2) the lack of a certificate UI has hampered our Browse usage primarily
 in G1G1 developed world situations: this tells me while it is of
 concern, it's not as high priority as some other issues might be,
 certainly lower than 0) or 1).  This could be satisfied by adding UI to
 browse, I believe.
 
 3) Sayamindu has made good progress toward swapping out Matchbox in
 favor of a conventional window manager; once this is complete, we can
 satisfy 2) at worst, by those who need it installing a standard Firefox;
 one could go up from there by using a Sugar theme, to XUL chrome
 modifications of arbitrary ambition; or installing your favorite web
 browser of choice.  This work to replace Matchbox won't make this
 release, but I expect be planned on thereafter.
 
 4) alternative browsers are always welcome; but, to make it as our
 default browser, it needs to:
 - address our rendering concerns for our screen.
 - have competitive memory performance
 - provide sharing features for classroom work (note that
   providing only an unmodified conventional browser won't 
   currently have these facilities).
 Additional goodness would be to have a single HTML rendering engine for
 everything, to save flash space, and the certificate UI we're missing.
 
 I can also anticipate Javascript performance may become an issue as its
 use continues to increase.
 
  - Jim
 
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Re: (another) WebKit port of Browse

2008-07-08 Thread Jim Gettys


On Tue, 2008-07-08 at 00:17 -0400, Mikus Grinbergs wrote:
  Not everyone likes tabbed browsing.
 
 That may be true - but what if the user needs to reference two (or 
 more) separate pages of information.  If while looking at one page 
 he can't remember *exactly* what the other page said, he may want to 
 switch between pages.  What are the alternatives to tabbed browsing?
 
 [To me, it is more logical to select a tab created under my control, 
 than to select from the previously-seen list as presented by the 
 Browse 'Back' button.  And to open several instances of the existing 
 Activity seems wasteful.]


Patches gratefully accepted.  Note that due to memory usage, even tabs
have their limits (though it may be the recent improvements in Gecko
obviate this problem somewhat; it frees pixmap storage unused in finite
time).

Note the WebKit I would hope are now similarly motivated (competition is
a wonderful thing ;-)).
  - Jim

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Re: 8.2 Kernel status update

2008-07-02 Thread Jim Gettys
The other issue it would be nice to get fixed is the jffs2 full
performance falling off the wall cliff, for which there is a patch that
the Nokia folks have deployed.  While in development we seldom run full,
running full is likely the usual state in the field.

Dave, have you had a chance to look at it?
 - Jim

On Tue, 2008-07-01 at 22:40 -0700, Deepak Saxena wrote:
 Hi,
 
 I'm out of town in meetings all day tommorrow so won't make it to 
 the software status meeting. From a kernel POV, the biggest bugs 
 in 8.2 AFAIK are touchpad issues (7341) and wireless suspend resume 
 issues (7303). Dilinger has a patch for the former that disables pen 
 tablet mode that will hopefuly help with a lot of the issue and I 
 believe Richard is testing it (I would do it now if I didn't have
 to jump on plane in 6 hours).  Andrey from Cozybits fixed up the 
 wifi issue and build 2097 contains the appropriate bits.
 
 The one major change I was hopeing to get into kernel for 8.2
 is integrating intiramfs and kernel into one RPM but I think 
 the probability of getting that done in next few days is not 
 too high ATM.
 
 ~Deepak
 
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Re: fonts-thai-ttf has been abandoned!

2008-07-02 Thread Jim Gettys
This probably dates from when Behdad was helping us with Thai rendering.

Behdad, do you remember?
   - Jim


On Tue, 2008-07-01 at 17:52 -0400, C. Scott Ananian wrote:
 We added a package named 'fonts-thai-ttf' to our builds a while ago
 for thai font support.  However, no one here now remembers where this
 font came from, or where the upstream came from.  Can someone familiar
 with thai support help out?  Ideally we'd like to confirm the
 licensing and then grow a maintainer for this package in fedora.
 Thanks!
  --scott
 
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Re: Inappropriate use of private meetings lists. (reply to).

2008-07-02 Thread Jim Gettys
On Wed, 2008-07-02 at 17:47 +0200, NoiseEHC wrote:
 1. olpc games sets the reply-to

Sounds like it should get fixed...

 2. BTW this recommendation does not make my point wrong (eg that the 
 current setting makes harder to keep conversations on the devel list)

And screws many people who use reply to to get their mail sent back to
their main mailbox
  - Jim


 
 Jim Gettys wrote:
  Here's mailman's recommendation about replyto...
 
  http://lists.laptop.org/admin/devel/?VARHELP=general/reply_goes_to_list
   - Jim
 
 
 
 
  On Wed, 2008-07-02 at 09:19 +0200, NoiseEHC wrote:

  There are top-down decisions being made by a few people that drive the 
  direction of OLPC. These decisions are not waiting for consensus, and 
  they are made by a small number of people. I don't believe this is 
  going to change (at least not in the short term).
 

  I, personally, do not care who makes decisions, as long as he is smart 
  and makes good decisions. The problem is that usually I am not 
  notified of such decisions.
 
  For example, the move from 32 bit to 16 bit frame buffer just happened 
  silently. One day people debated its merits on this list without 
  reaching any conclusions. Some months later it was 16 bit. Nobody told it.
 
  A similar thing is that I am trying to get an answer to the question 
  whether the XO image will be moved to LZO compression or not when we 
  will be rebased to F9. The reason is that I am currently tuning the LZO 
  decompression code and want to know whether this effort is moot or not. 
  Most likely this was already decided by somebody, and frankly I am not 
  qualified enough to debate this decision, I just want to know what it is.
 
  Note that I had to reply all to this message and then delete all 
  recipients and then replace CC devel with TO devel. The reason is that 
  this devel list is not set up that the reply-to would be the devel list, 
  and if I do not delete others then the conversation often slips outside 
  devel. See, even the main mailing list is configured wrong.
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Re: Inappropriate use of private meetings lists. (reply to).

2008-07-02 Thread Jim Gettys
On Wed, 2008-07-02 at 09:54 -0700, Carol Lerche wrote:
 I don't understand the argument that forcing Reply-to to be back to
 the list eradicates a list participant's ability to get the reply on
 their preferred email address.  Presumably they replied to the list
 via this address.  

This doesn't follow; some people often use multiple mail accounts.

The question is now: what options should we set?  I'm not saying what
the answer is, just explaining why it is set the way it is...
  - Jim

 By forcing Reply-to to the list address, all subscribers should
 receive the reply in the way they specified when they subscribed to
 it.  What am I missing?
 
 2008/7/2 Dennis Gilmore [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 On Wednesday 02 July 2008, Jim Gettys wrote:
  Here's mailman's recommendation about replyto...
 
 
 
 http://lists.laptop.org/admin/devel/?VARHELP=general/reply_goes_to_list
   - Jim
 
 I personally really dislike being CC'd on lists im subscribed
 to I find it
 extremely poor netiquette  of all the mailing lists im
 subscribed to OLPC's
 are the only ones that dont set replyto the list.  It and the
 huge amount of
 cross posting on OLPC lists really irritate me. its a very
 standard convention
 to keep list mail on lists.  if you need to take something off
 list  then you
 should go through the steps needed to do so.  i personally
 always use the
 reply to list option my client gives me.
 
 When i get CC'd i dont get the mailman email only the cc'd one
 which goes to
 different folders where i might not see the mail for awhile.
 It outright breaks
 my procmail recipes, because mailman correctly doesnt send me
 a duplicate
 email.  I filter my list mail based on the X-BeenThere: header
 
 
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Re: Olpc3 vs Joyride

2008-06-30 Thread Jim Gettys
Dennis:

OLPC csound is an *exact* formal *subset* of full csound-5 built from
the same sources as csound-5.

It gets rid of tk/tcl dependency we don't want to carry in csound
  - Jim

On Sun, 2008-06-29 at 17:25 -0500, Dennis Gilmore wrote:
 On Sunday 29 June 2008, Bert Freudenberg wrote:
  Am 30.06.2008 um 00:05 schrieb Dennis Gilmore:
   On Sunday 29 June 2008, Bert Freudenberg wrote:
   I reanimated my script that shows differences between the latest
   joyride and candidate builds:
  
   http://dev.laptop.org/~bert/olpc3-joyride.html
  
   ... and in particular added a section to easily see what packages are
   in olpc3 and not in joyride, and vice versa.
  
   There are not only differences in package versions, but also in which
   packages are in. I wondered, for example, why csound is missing from
   joyride ...
  
   a second copy of csound landed in fedora as olpcsound.  it is built
   specifically for olpc  and is in joyride.
 
  If it was named csound-olpc that would have been more obvious ...
 
  - Bert -
 Yes,  first i heard of it was when i was asked to switch out csound and 
 csound-
 python for olpcsound.   Had i been asked before hand i could have suggested a 
 way that the csound spec could have produced  csound csound-python and csound-
 olpc.  but what is done is done.  I personally don't like anything being 
 called olpc-foo,  I think we should write code that is useful outside of 
 OLPC, 
 useful to the whole world.  In which case  the naming is really a poor choice.
 
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Re: Olpc3 vs Joyride

2008-06-30 Thread Jim Gettys
I think Victor would be very happy to have a single spec file that
covers both the subset and full csound builds
  - Jim


On Mon, 2008-06-30 at 09:53 -0500, Dennis Gilmore wrote:
 On Monday 30 June 2008, Jim Gettys wrote:
  Dennis:
 
  OLPC csound is an *exact* formal *subset* of full csound-5 built from
  the same sources as csound-5.
 
  It gets rid of tk/tcl dependency we don't want to carry in csound
- Jim
 There are much better ways to achieve that goal.  than what was done.  but 
 its 
 too late now.   I'm working on defining some macros in totem right now so we 
 can always take the latest fedora spec, change some 0's to 1's  and build a 
 much more minimalistic totem that's suitable for us.  What is done is done 
 now.
 
  On Sun, 2008-06-29 at 17:25 -0500, Dennis Gilmore wrote:
   On Sunday 29 June 2008, Bert Freudenberg wrote:
Am 30.06.2008 um 00:05 schrieb Dennis Gilmore:
 On Sunday 29 June 2008, Bert Freudenberg wrote:
 I reanimated my script that shows differences between the latest
 joyride and candidate builds:

 http://dev.laptop.org/~bert/olpc3-joyride.html

 ... and in particular added a section to easily see what packages
 are in olpc3 and not in joyride, and vice versa.

 There are not only differences in package versions, but also in
 which packages are in. I wondered, for example, why csound is
 missing from joyride ...

 a second copy of csound landed in fedora as olpcsound.  it is built
 specifically for olpc  and is in joyride.
   
If it was named csound-olpc that would have been more obvious ...
   
- Bert -
  
   Yes,  first i heard of it was when i was asked to switch out csound and
   csound- python for olpcsound.   Had i been asked before hand i could have
   suggested a way that the csound spec could have produced  csound
   csound-python and csound- olpc.  but what is done is done.  I personally
   don't like anything being called olpc-foo,  I think we should write code
   that is useful outside of OLPC, useful to the whole world.  In which case
the naming is really a poor choice.
  
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Re: etoys now available in Debian's non-free repository

2008-06-27 Thread Jim Gettys
Albert,

There are many communities out there; some of which have used/use even
closed source tools for developing free code.  That does not make the
code itself any less free.

Using other tools may have other costs, in particular a higher entry
cost for contributors, but it doesn't make the resulting software less
free.
  - Jim


On Thu, 2008-06-26 at 16:13 -0400, Albert Cahalan wrote: 
 On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 1:38 PM, Bert Freudenberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Am 26.06.2008 um 10:53 schrieb Albert Cahalan:
 
  This idea of applying patch collections is disturbing. It reminds
  me of the terrible mess that Minix was back in 1991, when the
  license permitted people to share patches but not code with
  the patches applied. Here you have a technical limit instead
  of a legal one, but I expect that the result is not much different.
 
  I got that. The fundamental problem is the patch collection.
  There is a problem even if you can distribute the result.
  Patches need to be applied. If you do that, and distribute
  a blob, then we're back to the blob problem. If you don't do
  that, then we have the Minix problem.
 
  I don't actually disagree with that. Smalltalk is an excellent personal
  computing environment (well, you would expect that from the guys who largely
  invented personal computing). It does not fare nearly as well for
  distributed, collaborative development (although the Squeak community has
  developed work-arounds, like Monticello, a nice distributed SCM).
 
  But: Why should these shortcomings in development style be a reason to not
  include it in a Linux distribution? It's not like if every other app is
  well-coded or well-maintained.
 
 The very foundation of the Linux development community
 (which Squeak developers are asking to be accepted by)
 includes an expectation that software can be handled in
 certain ways. Any person can browse the source, with the
 worst case being that one must download an archive file
 or perform a check-out. (better: web git/cvs/svn access)
 Any person can use external tools, which themselves are
 likewise open, to view/edit/save/create/share the source.
 (better: those tools are standard, like emacs/gimp/audacity)
 We also expect a certain degree of openness (not a lot of
 non-public communication) and a certain degree of modularity
 (parts are interchangable across similar projects and versions,
 allowing distributions to mix and match).
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Re: Running regular X11 apps

2008-06-27 Thread Jim Gettys

 There are ways we can implement different behavior for different
 windows (for example the maximus approach could be extended to do so).
 The problem is, how do we know which windows should be displayed
 fullscreen (say the firefox or the gedit one) and which not (the
 gimp)? afaik there is no window hint which could help us there...
 

Also note that Metacity is reputed to be a decent code base to work in;
a simple modification isn't unreasonable
   - Jim

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Re: [IAEP] Running regular X11 apps

2008-06-27 Thread Jim Gettys
On Fri, 2008-06-27 at 11:19 +0200, Marco Pesenti Gritti wrote:

 There are ways we can implement different behavior for different
 windows (for example the maximus approach could be extended to do so).
 The problem is, how do we know which windows should be displayed
 fullscreen (say the firefox or the gedit one) and which not (the
 gimp)? afaik there is no window hint which could help us there...
 

There are ICCCM/EWMH hints to request full screen behavior, already
implemented by window managers: e.g. totem or other video players use
these routinely.
  - Jim

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Re: [IAEP] etoys now available in Debian's non-free repository

2008-06-24 Thread Jim Gettys
 to the real matter at hand:

Note the following: squeak is actually a several part system:

The VM (virtual machine), which is compiled using a C compiler and
exquisitely examined regularly for performance reasons, and recompiled
with some regularity with your favorite C compiler.  As I understand it,
Squeak generates this C code itself.

This VM interprets the image file, and so this C code of the VM can and
is regularly examined, as Yoshiki points out, and for which the code can
be decompiled by tools and examined.  In fact, the binary image is
routinely decompiled whenever debugging is done in Squeak.

So as Yoshiki points out, it is actually feasible to complete this loop
and verify the binary in the image file has the same result; external
programs (have) exist(ed) to do so, in Yoshiki's example, in Squeak.  In
this case, the Thompson attack seems unlikely; having Squeak able to
recognize you are compiling a program intended to decompile an image
seems pretty far-fetched to me (it isn't the same as a compiler
recognizing it is compiling itself).
   - Jim


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Re: How USB's are enumerated on the XO

2008-06-23 Thread Jim Gettys
While in theory, USB devices can/should send serial numbers, that part
of the spec is honored mostly by it's absence (due to cost).

As John said, unfortunately, with USB you have to go down to the device
and see if they have something usable to distinguish devices.
 - Jim


On Mon, 2008-06-23 at 14:07 -0400, John Watlington wrote:
 My experience is that you have to find a USB device parameter
 (serial number, MAC address, etc.) that is different between the
 two USB devices for this to ever work reliably.
 
 wad
 
 On Jun 23, 2008, at 10:37 AM, shivaprasad javali wrote:
 
  I was trying to use the port no to which the usb device is  
  connected to differentiate between two usb devices of the same type  
  connected in my application. For that I wanted the variant field  
  between the two usb devices so that I can uniquely identify them.
 
  P.S: The output of lshal -m wasnt of much help for me.
 
  Thanks
  Shivaprasad
 
 
  On Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 7:47 PM, Tomeu Vizoso  
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  2008/6/23 shivaprasad javali [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
   Hi,
  
 I have a usb device to be used with my application which  
  does not have
   any unique serial no. I noticed that when I connect two such  
  devices to the
   XO , In the /proc/bus/usb/devices file the Bus for the two  
  remains the same
   but the port no is different for the two. When I connect the same  
  two
   devices to a normal machine running fedora core 7, Its the Bus  
  that changes
   for the two and the port no remains the same.
  
 The XO that I have is relatively old. So I wanted to know  
  whether this
   is what is expected on the XO or Is it different on the later  
  versions of
   the XO.
 
  I didn't quite understood what you are trying to do, but something
  that may help you is to plug and unplug the usb sticks while lshal -m
  is running. That may tell you something interesting.
 
  Good luck,
 
  Tomeu
 
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Re: [IAEP] etoys now available in Debian's non-free repository

2008-06-23 Thread Jim Gettys
My point is somewhat different: the only way out of the compilation
trust trap is another compiler.  Unless someone has done this for gcc,
it has the identical problem, and there are many possible upstream
attacks.  I see no reason (probably less) to trust the chain of trust
for gcc than I do Squeak, as the rewards of attacking gcc are so much
higher.

So to what standards should one hold squeak vs. gcc?
  - Jim


On Mon, 2008-06-23 at 15:52 -0300, Jecel Assumpcao Jr wrote:
 Frank Ch. Eigler wrote on Sat, 21 Jun 2008 14:57:52 -0400
  On Sat, Jun 21, 2008 at 02:50:59PM -0400, Jim Gettys wrote:
Plus it requires them (and users) to run the tools embedded into the
possibly suspect image in order to describe itself.  Do you see how
there could be a trust problem there?
   
   Note this is no different than any time you use a compiler binary
   provided by someone else...  The attack is just as complete...
   http://cm.bell-labs.com/who/ken/trust.html
  
  If that's the best attempt to reassure etoys users/packagers, no
  wonder the debian people are balking.  The Thompson Trojan is a
  noteworthy idea, but surely you see the wholly different degree of
  paranoia we're talking about when we're asked to trust a decades-old
  virtual machine image as compared to a bootstrappable system.
 
 I think Jim's point is valid - you have to consider very carefully every
 link in your web of trust and understand just how complex it is if you
 want a realistic notion of security. And you have to be clear about your
 needs. As an extreme example: most x86 processors currently have enough
 spare transistors to easily hide an attack similar to the one described
 in the cited paper. I don't think anybody here would spend even a single
 second worrying about Intel or AMD, right? But a person in a country
 that might go to war with the USA might have to think about it.
 
 Squeak, and Smalltalk in general, represents the opposite extreme in
 that it was mostly developed in that 1970s hacker spirit that gave us
 SMTP and other equally secure systems. And here we run into a common
 problem in the Squeak community: there are those who can (easily, even)
 do something and there are those who feel it is a top priority to do
 that something, but hardly ever there is an overlap between the two
 groups. In the case of security most of the development effort is
 happening in the form of forks rather than changes to Squeak itself, so
 that doesn't help the problem we are discussing at all.
 
 One way to deal with weak links in a web of trust is to have more
 parallel links. If you have several tools with separate origins then an
 attack that depends on their cooperation will be very unlikely. A tool
 in Python that could investigate a Squeak image file, as has been
 suggested, would be an example of using parallel links.
 
 About the issue of sourceless objects, this is something that varies
 from image to image. If you start out from some standard image and use
 the paint tool to make a few drawings and open new workspaces and type
 some notes into them then your new image will be more problematic than
 the original. It is likely that with some effort you could have a usable
 image that contained absolutely no objects like this at all. Some other
 Smalltalks have this, which shows it isn't a technical problem.
 
 So we have two things that should be done: a tool in a language other
 than Smalltalk that can inspect Squeak images and an image which can be
 generated from the sources using that tool. Who will do it? I can't
 think of a name to suggest, which is the problem I mentioned above.
 
 -- Jecel
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Re: restoring ov7670/cafe_ccic to previous state

2008-06-23 Thread Jim Gettys
Note that the blood sprinkling and goat entrails talking to the camera
chip makes CAFE look good... We had to go to omnivision N times to get
new incantations of register read/writes during the development of the
driver.
   - Jim


On Mon, 2008-06-23 at 14:24 -0700, Deepak Saxena wrote:
 On Jun 23 2008, at 17:58, Daniel Drake was caught saying:
  Hi,
  
  As you may have heard, olpc3 builds occasionally hang on boot during
  cafe_ccic/ov7670 initialization.
  
  Erik and myself tracked down the problem to this upstream commit, which
  has never been shipped in an olpc stream before olpc3:
  http://git.kernel.org/?p=linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux-2.6.git;a=commitdiff_plain;h=6d77444
  On boots where the bug appears, the do..while loop added by the patch
  iterates indefinitely.
  
  Jon Corbet is looking into the problem, but I feel that we should revert
  the driver to the update1 state for the time being. We should be
  starting to stabilise olpc3.
 
 I agree. I'll pull your commits into master and testing and hopefuly
 we'll see a more stable fix in time for 8.2 (though my experience
 so far with the CAFE chip makes me not very optimistic).
 
 ~Deepak
 
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Re: etoys now available in Debian's non-free repository

2008-06-21 Thread Jim Gettys
On Sat, 2008-06-21 at 08:47 -0400, Frank Ch. Eigler wrote:

 
 Plus it requires them (and users) to run the tools embedded into the
 possibly suspect image in order to describe itself.  Do you see how
 there could be a trust problem there?
 

Note this is no different than any time you use a compiler binary
provided by someone else...  The attack is just as complete...

http://cm.bell-labs.com/who/ken/trust.html
- Jim

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RE: Upgrade G1G1 using autoreinstallation method

2008-06-13 Thread Jim Gettys
One of the AP's (or some other machine), will have to be configured to
dchp.   - Jim


On Fri, 2008-06-13 at 07:10 +1000, David Leeming wrote:
 Thanks - solved. It's all there on the wiki, yes (blush). We have a lot of
 time pressures imposed by the political realities here, with 20+ countries
 each with their own government and process to go through, etc. I do
 appreciate your help! 
 
 Do you also know about access points, it was stressed at the Countries
 meeting in Boston that 30+ XOs in one classroom do not collaborate very
 efficiently and the preferred method is to use an AP to enable
 collaboration/sharing in the classroom, even if there is no Internet access.
 We have had some D-Link DWL2100 APs sent to us for this purpose and what
 happens is that if there is no Internet connection the XOs do not associate
 themselves persistently with the APs but hang up and go looking for the
 mesh. Do you know anything about that?
 
 David Leeming
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Bert Freudenberg [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 Sent: Thursday, 12 June 2008 7:28 p.m.
 To: David Leeming
 Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: Upgrade G1G1 using autoreinstallation method
 
 
 On 12.06.2008, at 05:53, David Leeming wrote:
 
  How can I upgrade G1G1 XO-1s using the auto-reinstallation method  
  with a flash drive? We have 100 to update here in PNG and it is  
  impossible to use olpc-update as the connectivity is so poor. We  
  have a flash drive with the new image 703 on it, and I successfully  
  updated a B4. But when I try a G1G1 laptop, even with pressing the  
  game keys it just boots normally without updating. I know I have  
  some gaps in my knowledge regarding the keys and security for the  
  G1G1 laptops, but unfortunately I need a quick answer. Much  
  appreciate any help.
 
 Make sure it is the signed build (called 703 not update.1-703),  
 and remember you need an activity pack, too. See here:
 
   http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Secure_Upgrade
 
 - Bert -
 
 
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Re: Need advice to upgrade

2008-06-11 Thread Jim Gettys
My memory is that you may have one of the two known access point types
with which we have problems, due to the chip/firmware used in that
access point (note the pre-N designation).  Michailis will know for
sure, and it's probably recorded in our Trac system.

Due to the very small population of those routers, (if my memory is
indeed correct) we're unlikely to explicitly try to fix it.
- Jim


On Wed, 2008-06-11 at 10:09 +0200, NoiseEHC wrote:
 Hello,
 
 I have just received my XO via the Developers Program. The machine is 
 working nicely, but there is a problem connecting to my wireless router 
 (Belkin Pre-N F5D8230-4) which uses WPA-PSK with AES encription. The XO 
 just asks for the password over and over again. The strange thing that 
 connecting did succeed several days ago so I could request a developer 
 key but since then nothing... (Today I have switched to channel 11 from 
 channel AUTO but no effect.)
 
 1. So my question is: do I need to upgade to some more recent FW/build? 
 Is it a known problem with build 656 (stream ship.2) which I have?
 
 Normally I would not spam the devel list with this support request but I 
 have some more questions:
 
 2. I could not find anywhere what the LEDs do on the XO. It can be that 
 I am just stupid or blind but there is an option that it was so evident 
 for every 1CC employee that the explanation was missed somehow. The only 
 thing that I could find is this:
 http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Image:Drawing75c1.jpg
 I can deduce all the LEDs' meaning except the leftmost two:
 a. The lollipop LED is Wireless acquisition. What exactly does it mean?
 b. The tie-fighter LED is Wireless activity. Is it send or receive or 
 both? Is it the wireless chip or the TCP/IP stack or what?
 
 3. Some time ago cscott told me how to kill stuff if I want to measure 
 speed.
 telinit 3
 ifconfig msh0 down
 ifconfig eth0 down
 After that the lollipop and tie-figher are both blinking randomly (and I 
 got msh0: link becomes ready message to the console). Does it still 
 switches off things? If not what should I use?
 
 4. How is the rebasing on FC9 is going?
 I am just asking because sooner or later I will finish the Geode docu 
 and will start to develop drivers. Since I am not a Linux guru, I could 
 not setup my FC7 VirtualPC image to compile the kernel, I was able only 
 to write kernel modules with FC8. So if it is possible, I would avoid 
 fighting the kernel build process on FC6 or FC7 and so I would like to 
 know what to expect?
 
 5. What image should I upgrade to? What is that faster build?
 I currently only using the text-mode console so it is not a problem for 
 me if no activity works or something like that (if the wireless works).
 
 Thank you!
 
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Re: Thin firmware + driver soft AP support development release

2008-06-05 Thread Jim Gettys
Cool!  Great stuff...
- Jim


On Thu, 2008-06-05 at 16:48 -0700, Luis Carlos Cobo wrote:
 Hi all,
 
 We are happy to announce a new release of libertas firmware + driver
 that supports hostapd on the xo.
 
 The release is composed of:
 
 Firmware: http://dev.laptop.org/pub/firmware/libertas/thinfirm
 Driver: git clone git://dev.laptop.org/users/javier/libertastf.git
 HOW_TOs:
  - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Libertas_Thinfirmware_HOWTO
  - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/XO_as_AP
 
 Please send all feedback to this list cc'ing luisca or javier AT
 cozybit.com
 
 Cheers,
 
 The friendly folks at cozybit
 
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Re: what about having network connections inhibit sleep?

2008-06-04 Thread Jim Gettys
On Wed, 2008-06-04 at 08:32 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I just attempted to do an upgrade of one of my machines, and I ran into 
 the problem that if I just kicked off the upgrade and let it sit, it went 
 to sleep in the middle and died.

This specific issue was fixed quite a while ago, IIRC.

 
 what do people think about the idea of making the existance of established 
 TCP connections inhibit sleep?

Seems brutal.

 
 unfortunantly I don't know exactly what build was on this machine (I 
 loaned it out to a project at USC and they re-imaged it)
 
 David Lang
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Re: XO-2 software plans

2008-05-23 Thread Jim Gettys
Bert...

Part of the problem is the X driver model is pretty broken, causing much
more to be done in software than should be necessary; and it isn't clear
we're even using X efficiently at the moment...  The driver stuff is
getting fixed (in general in X: this is the EXA/DRI2 work); profiling of
our entire software stack is in order to see where our real problems are
at the moment.
 - Jim


On Fri, 2008-05-23 at 19:58 +0200, Bert Freudenberg wrote:
 On 23.05.2008, at 19:38, Jordan Crouse wrote:
 
  On 23/05/08 18:00 +0200, Bert Freudenberg wrote:
 
  /me wants a graphics accelerator.
 
  Minor nitpick - you _have_ a graphics accelerator.  What you really  
  want
  is a 3D graphics engine.  Be sure to keep the distinction seperate;
  lots of embedded processors have 2D accelerators, fewer have 3D
  capabilities.
 
 
 I actually didn't necessarily mean 3D. Just something that's fast  
 enough for full-screen panning/zooming/rotating/compositing operations  
 would do nicely. But perhaps that only comes in 3D variants nowadays ...
 
 - Bert -
 
 
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Re: Release process

2008-05-23 Thread Jim Gettys
 for a place equivalent to 'unstable'
  which is less controlled: an easy place for developers to distribute
  their latest stuff which is expected to work but might not.  I've also
  been pushing for new features to land first on 'experimental'
  equivalent branches: Dennis' FC9 is a good example here.  It's known
  not to work yet, but we need to be able to distribute the
  work-in-progress in order to more efficiently help push it to
  completion, and to better track dependent packages (like sugar).
 
  It may be worthwhile naming our branches to make these equivalencies clear.
   --scott
 
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Re: [IAEP] [sugar] OLPC's bizarre behaviors

2008-05-23 Thread Jim Gettys

Note that we *cannot* share much of the information about the possible
alternatives we are examining for Gen-2 hardware until decisions are
final; it is the basis of serious negotiations among competing parties,
under non-disclosure agreements.

The best we can do is share the conceptual ideas, both because many of
you may have good ideas to contribute, and that people having some idea
of direction is essential; this is essential both for developers and our
primary purchasers, governments and NGO's.
 - Jim
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Re: [IAEP] [sugar] OLPC's bizarre behaviors

2008-05-23 Thread Jim Gettys
Martin has a good point: we're still in the phase of basic things like
processor selection.

And one of the really major questions is what touch technology to use;
Mary Lou tells me there are many different technologies out there at the
moment; we'll have to make another big decision there at some point.
  - Jim



On Sat, 2008-05-24 at 09:49 +1200, Martin Langhoff wrote:
 On Sat, May 24, 2008 at 2:18 AM, Alex Belits [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Then the announcement should be:
 
 Don't take it so seriously. It's a vision set of mockups, and the
 different technical aspects of how to get there will be fleshed out in
 time and discussed in [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 And when I say fleshed out I mean - you'll see us exploring the
 alternatives, and figuring out what the best path is. So keep your
 ears open, and be ready to jump into the fray when it gets interesting
 (if you are keen to help with XO-2, that is).
 
 For the time being, XO-2 is far, far away. I tend to not care about
 things I can't put into action right now :-)
 

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Re: XO-2 software plans

2008-05-23 Thread Jim Gettys
On Fri, 2008-05-23 at 17:17 -0700, Alex Belits wrote:
 Jim Gettys wrote:
  Bert...
  
  Part of the problem is the X driver model is pretty broken, causing much
  more to be done in software than should be necessary; and it isn't clear
  we're even using X efficiently at the moment...  The driver stuff is
  getting fixed (in general in X: this is the EXA/DRI2 work); profiling of
  our entire software stack is in order to see where our real problems are
  at the moment.
 
 EXA? DRI2?
 
 Don't you end up using Cairo through GTK as the main layer that almost 
 everything goes through, so everything below has any importance only as 
 long as Cairo uses it efficiently?

You can abuse Cairo, rather than use it.  

And we use it sometimes in ways other than strictly through GTK+: e.g.
the canvas.

Profiling is in order.

Also, note I was replying to Bert Freudenberg, one of the Squeak/etoys
folks.  They don't go through the GTK/cairo stack, except for the
activity decoration.
- Jim

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Re: Turkish keyboard layout

2008-05-23 Thread Jim Gettys
On Fri, 2008-05-23 at 20:38 +0530, Sayamindu Dasgupta wrote:
 On Wed, May 21, 2008 at 10:25 AM, Kim Quirk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  We are trying to finalize the Turkish keyboard and I would like to get
  any last minute opinions or thoughts. A number of people have already
  provided their input -- THANKS!
 
  Please see the updated Q keyboard layout for Turkey:
  http://wiki.laptop.org/go/OLPC_Turkish_Keyboard
 
  If anyone can provide the xkb file, that would be great!
  We could also use some help with Turkish translations.
  Thanks Gary for catching the missing 'V' in the earlier version of the
  Q keyboard.
 
 
 Symbol file attached.
 The Manufacturing data page shows that for the Turkish machines, the
 KL tag should be set to us,tr. Do we need this ? From what I
 understand, the KL tag being set to tr only should do the trick.
 
 I'm not sure about the workflow for adding new keyboards - do I add
 the relevant changes to xkeyboard-config and start a build in Koji ?
 Thanks,
 Sayamindu
 
I have memories of this working this way so that the layout switching
works.

Bernie?
   - Jim

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Re: XO-2

2008-05-22 Thread Jim Gettys
Depends on the processor selection, not yet done.

I do recommend looking at Peter Hutterer's videos on YouTube (search for
mpx).  That shows the practicality of touch base and multi-user based
interfaces in Linux.
   - Jim


On Thu, 2008-05-22 at 11:19 +0200, Bert Freudenberg wrote:
 What are the software plans for the second-generation XO?
 
 - Bert -
 
 
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Re: XO-2 software plans

2008-05-22 Thread Jim Gettys
On Thu, 2008-05-22 at 19:28 -0400, Andres Salomon wrote:

 If they put me in charge, I'd choose whichever CPU had the best
 performance, lowest power consumption, and lowest price - regardless
 of architecture.

Change the ordering: power consumption and price (closely related to
integration these days), then performance.  FP required...  That's what
drove us to the Geode.  FP is essential for Linux software to just
work: I lived on the StrongARM with the iPAQ, and (almost) all free
software signal processing code (e.g. all multimedia code) is written
presuming a floating point unit.  At the time, there were many chips
whose spec sheet claimed you could get FP, but when you went to the
vendor, the FP unit didn't exist.  It's now 3 years later, so we have a
number of highly integrated chips with FP units that are pretty low
power to choose from.

Note that power consumption drives price through the entire chain; what
kind/size of power generation you need, etc.
  - Jim



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Re: Microsoft

2008-05-20 Thread Jim Gettys
We already have the technology in place to automatically update the
firmware as part of updating the laptop.  We certainly don't what the
support headaches of having to support multiple versions.
  - Jim


On Thu, 2008-05-15 at 18:34 -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Nick Negroponte has said :
 
 Open Firmware V2, the free and open source BIOS, is now capable of
 running Linux, Microsoft Windows XP and other operating systems, and was
 developed by Firmworks with support from OLPC. This will enable dual
 boot of OLPC XO laptops with Microsoft Windows XP in addition to the
 existing Fedora-based system and will become the standard
 BIOS/bootloader for all XO systems when completed. With this free
 BIOS, the XO-1 continues to be the most open laptop hardware currently
 available.
 
 This is totally different that we have been informed, the V2 version of the
 BIOS is able to run a double boot.  Huge difference!!!
 
 Good or bad? Everyone has its own answer.  Now the XOs are a more
 general tool, a broader range of happenings we will see.
 
 So... all the new 200,000 XOs that will come to Peru will come with this
 new V2 Bios.  and the first 45,000 will be updated?  Or we have to
 deal with a mixed enviroment? (no problem... just asking...)
 
 Best regards,
 
 Javier Rodriguez
 Lima, Peru
 
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Re: Microsoft

2008-05-19 Thread Jim Gettys
On Mon, 2008-05-19 at 07:55 -0400, Walter Bender wrote:
 The price often quoted has been $7 for the SD card. Not sure where
 that number comes from. I recall that a $19 high-speed card was used
 in the original testing; at the time it was asserted that a
 standard-speed card was necessary.
 

Prices keep falling for flash

Seems plausible, given the difference of when; or people could be
low-balling the price by looking at close-out prices on obsolete cards.

If you don't have a high speed SD card, then the performance will suffer
significantly; when running a high speed card, the (optimum) SD
bandwidth performance approaches that of the internal NAND, but still
with higher latency, and the details of file system layout make a huge
difference on write performance.  

Some conventional file systems will crawl during write due to bad
interactions with file system block sizes and the block size of the
flash.
  - Jim

 I don't know that this is still the case.
 
 -walter
 
 On Mon, May 19, 2008 at 4:20 AM, John Gilmore [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  So... all the new 200,000 XOs that will come to Peru will come with this
  new V2 Bios.  and the first 45,000 will be updated?  Or we have to
  deal with a mixed enviroment? (no problem... just asking...)
 
  Since the V2 firmware is only recently demo-able, not yet product
  quality, it's too early to tell when it will roll into the Quanta
  production line.
 
  Here's what I expect (which may be total fantasy).  When each child's
  XO gets a new software update (probably the scheduled August update,
  suitably augmented by the in-country team), then along with the OS and
  Activities, they'll also get the latest OpenFirmware update.  That
  firmware will include the capability to boot Windows, and have various
  other improvements.
 
  The capability to boot Windows does not include a copy of Windows
  itself.  To find out about how and when that will be available, you'd
  have to talk to Microsoft.  I hear each copy is $3 in some countries,
  and requires an SD card for more storage, that'll cost a few dollars
  also.  So if Peru wanted it on every laptop, figure it'll cost US$1.4
  million or so (200K x ($3 + $4)).
 
  Most of that cost is unavoidable hardware cost, unless MS slims down
  Windows to not need 1GB.  It'd cost US$800K even if MS let everyone
  in the country pirate the OS.  Doing so might well suit their
  purposes even better than charging $3 per copy, since they wouldn't be
  expected to provide any support for a stolen product, yet they would
  still be weaning kids away from Linux.
 
 John Gilmore (not an OLPC employee!)
 
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Re: [sugar] Activities Portal: Proposal/suggestion

2008-05-19 Thread Jim Gettys
On Mon, 2008-05-19 at 23:56 +0530, Sayamindu Dasgupta wrote:
 Has anyone evaluated Remora (http://wiki.mozilla.org/Update:Remora)
 for this ? This is the software which powers addons.mozilla.org
 Cheers,
 Sayamindu

It is clearly closest to what we need.  Just haven't had the time to
make it happen.

If someone wants to go for it, please go ahead and try it; when you need
access to install something (we have lots of bandwidth available), we'll
be happy to help host it.
   - Jim

 
 On Mon, May 19, 2008 at 11:47 PM, Morgan Collett
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  On Mon, May 19, 2008 at 5:16 PM, Marco Pesenti Gritti
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Please wikify this! :)
 
  There is a note about something like this at the end of the doc page
  which would be good to link:
  http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Documentation
 
  http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Activity_portal
 
 
  On Mon, May 19, 2008 at 5:08 PM, Morgan Collett
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  I've been thinking about a better portal for downloading activities. I
  came up with some ideas, that I unfortunately don't have time to
  implement, but I would be happy to cheer someone on if they are
  inspired by this...
 
  It should be easy to upload an activity (specifically after the first
  time it has been done) - easier than uploading to the wiki.
 
  Activities should be categorised according to various properties, 
  including:
  * The usual activity metadata from activity.info
  * Descriptions, as in http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Activities
  * Category, as in http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Activities
  * Age ranges the activity is suitable for? (Possibly a Mature category
  for Doom?)
  * Competencies required: Pre-reading, reading, writing, ...
  * Development maturity
   - like sourceforge: planning / pre-alpha / alpha / beta / stable
  * Collaborative?
   - yes / no / only (for activities like Connect or Chat that don't
  function as a single user activity)
  * Requires Internet? (e.g. Gmail)
  * Compatible with: Sugar / Glucose version or OLPC release or distro
  release... e.g. Sugar = 0.81
  * Additional Dependencies (e.g. video-chat-activity needs extra RPMs
  not in a build)
  * Tags
  * Languages - pulled out of the .xo
  * Low power friendly?
  * Related activities (for suites or alternatives)
  * Screenshot
 
  Activities have Releases, which have status similar to the development
  maturity - Suitable for: development / QA / public release etc - and
  of course the downloadable bundle for that release...
 
  The site should be internationalisable using standard i18n tools.
 
  Bonus points for:
  * Publishing a text page like
  http://mock.laptop.org/repos/local.update1/XOS/index.html at
  predictable URLs that lists activities compatible with a given
  release, for easy downloading with scripts etc.
  * Publishing the source in public distributed revision control, to get
  easy contributions to code / templates
  * Deployment on a system that is monitored and actively sysadmined
  * Implementation in a Python web framework, to tap into the existing
  developer community :)
  * A catchy name...
 
  Future features:
  * Download statistics
  * Feedback to the author(s)
 
  Regards
  Morgan
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Re: XP on OLPC - a contrarian view -- followup

2008-05-17 Thread Jim Gettys
On Fri, 2008-05-16 at 17:32 -0500, Robert Myers wrote:

 I just saw the Microsoft video of an XO running XP. In it the XO single 
 boots from an 'insyde' BIOS. The MS guy says that XP doesn't fit on the 
 flash, and is installed on an SD card. In this case, I'd guess the flash 
 is just being used as a home for the BIOS. I can see why techs at MS did 
 this to get a working prototype rather than having to wait for (or worse 
 yet, contribute to) the OF V2 bootloader/BIOS.
 
 Some sources seem to say that early pilots of the XP XO will go out in 
 this configuration. I really hope not, other than waving a few around to 
 show that it can be done.
 

OFW just booted XP in the last week.  At a guess, Mitch has a couple
months work to do to finish up, around things like ACPI.  All the hard
work is done, but as you know, bug hunting takes time.  So ofw isn't
ready in time for small initial pilots, but will be in time for large
deployments.
   - Jim

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Re: [sugar] Microsoft

2008-05-17 Thread Jim Gettys
On Fri, 2008-05-16 at 22:19 -0400, Albert Cahalan wrote:

 Windows-only is $3 extra.

No, you can't fit Windows in 1 Gig of NAND.

You get to pay the $7 for an SD card no matter what, to run Windows, for
$10 total.

- Jim

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Re: [sugar] Microsoft

2008-05-16 Thread Jim Gettys
We could still boot Linux on a conventional BIOS, like on every other
machine in the world.

But then we give up fast suspend/resume, and distribution channel
security.

It seems to me that having Linux able to work better than Windows in
fundamental ways is wise ;-).
   - Jim


On Fri, 2008-05-16 at 12:08 +0200, Morgan Collett wrote:
 On Fri, May 16, 2008 at 11:28 AM, Edward Cherlin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  It would have been a lot simpler to have left OFW as it was, unable to
  support a Windows boot. But the point is now moot.
 
 No, actually that would have forced the Windows scenario to require a
 BIOS to be flashed in place of OFW. Then we lose the simple dual boot
 capability.
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Re: [support-gang] [sugar] Microsoft

2008-05-15 Thread Jim Gettys
On Thu, 2008-05-15 at 17:56 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  It's doubtful the free software community would do what Microsoft is
  demanding: asking the manufacturer to add 5-10% to the cost of the hardware
  to facilitate their efforts, nor would the free software community charge a
  $3.00 license fee for the use thereafter.
 
 I missed where the hardware was being changed and the cost going up to 
 support this. what I read was that the boot firmware was being modified so 
 that it could dual-boot into windows.
 
 please point me at the additional cost involved.

Huh?  We haven't changed the hardware

Jim

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Re: [sugar] [support-gang] Microsoft

2008-05-15 Thread Jim Gettys
Ah, Windows needs more than 1GB to be useful; so to run Windows you need
to pay extra for a SD card big enough to hold it.

Doesn't add any cost for Linux, which fits nicely on the internal 1GB
flash.
  - Jim


On Fri, 2008-05-16 at 02:57 +0200, Simon Schampijer wrote:
 
 from: 
 http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/16/technology/16laptop.html?_r=2oref=sloginoref=slogin
 
 Windows will add a bit to the price of the machines, about $3, the
 licensing 
 fee Microsoft charges to some developing nations under a program
 called 
 Unlimited Potential. For those nations that want dual-boot models,
 running both 
 Windows and Linux, the extra hardware required will add another $7 or
 so to the 
 cost of the machines, Mr. Negroponte said.
 
 Simon
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Re: [sugar] OLPC priorities for Sugar in the August release

2008-05-14 Thread Jim Gettys
Has Firefox 3- B5 landed in Joyride?  it is much faster starting up than
the FF3B2 we had in the older systems (not to mention immensely better
on memory usage).
 - Jim


On Wed, 2008-05-14 at 14:57 +0200, Marco Pesenti Gritti wrote:
 On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 1:46 PM, Mikus Grinbergs [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
* More responsive UI - faster launch of activities
   
Is the solution currently in joyride satisfactory for the August release?
 
   I use a recent Joyride on my G1G1.  My average time to launch Browse
   (from the time I click in the F3 Activity Ring on the Browse icon,
   to the time when I can click on the entry field in Browse itself (so
   that I can start typing in an URL) is 25 seconds.
 
 If you could download the latest joyride, time startup and open a
 ticket that would be useful. 25 seconds are too much obviously.
 
 Please take both time on the very first start and after a reboot,
 xulrunner does component registration on the very first start which
 could be expensive
 
 Thanks.
 Marco
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Re: very simple datastore reimplementation

2008-05-13 Thread Jim Gettys
On Tue, 2008-05-13 at 18:56 +1200, Martin Langhoff wrote:
 On Sat, May 10, 2008 at 2:15 AM, Jim Gettys [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  FUSE is great, but...
 
   It means interoperability must be an explicit planned-in-advance action:
 
 Exactly. That's also my beef with the FUSE approach. The things we can
 do via FUSE we can do in the regular FS. So let's avoid FUSE, and use
 a *simple* convention on how to store things in the FS. Something
 roughly along the lines of:
 

The reason for FUSE (specifically via the new Gnome replacement for the
old, unloved, GnomeVFS) is to enable better interoperability with
non-Sugar applications (for example, when we are able to do versioning),
where relying strictly on some name munging does not get you to a good
point.  So a solution that only solves the debugging and
interoperability to non-Sugar systems may be a step on a longer road.

Please distinguish two threads here: where we need to go in the long
term, and demands of the next release.  Just because we can't
necessarily reach our goals immediately and do something in the short
term to solve the most pressing issue, doesn't mean the goals should not
be defined and discussed. Often plans take time to execute and without
them, you won't end up in a good end-point.  And without such planning
and a roadmap it is almost impossible attract contributors to the
desired end-point.
 Jim

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Re: VGA external on OLPC

2008-05-13 Thread Jim Gettys
Note there are USB display adapters (I have one in my hand as I write
this); I'd love to see someone working on X.org drivers for it.  There
may even be some code kicking around that just needs TLC (though it's
been long enough I'd have to dig up my contacts and check). 

If there is anyone interested out there, let me know.
  - Jim




On Tue, 2008-05-13 at 08:29 +0200, Dietmar Stölting wrote:
 Hi all, after reading
 http://www.whyxo.com/2008/01/08/external-monitor-or-projector-for-the-xo/
 
 I am sure, that it is possible to integrate a VGA external connector
 for the OLPC. On the Prototype-A motherboard layout there was such an
 external VGA connector, but on G1G1 version it is gone.
 I am a teacher and it would be very good for projection with a beamer
 or if your LCD is broken, to have such an external VGA connector. 
 My problem is, that I have no schematic or a good photo of both sides
 of the Prototype-A motherboard. You can read in the Geode LX databook,
 that the Geode LX chip offers direct VGA support and connection. But
 some parts of the Prototype-A motherboard have gone in G1G1 version
 and so I cannot see, which direct lines from the processor has to be
 used for the direct VGA support. Pin 1,2,3 are used for the RGB signal
 on the G1G1 layout, and pin 13 seems to be Hsync and pin 14 Vsync. I
 do not know, what is the use of pin 4,9,12,15, because they are also
 wired on the G1G1 version.
 Pin 5, 6,7,8,10,11 are not connected on the G1G1 version and I think,
 that this was the same for the Prototype-A motherboard layout. But
 still there must be the lines direct to the Geode processor from the
 Prototype-A layout. They only have to be found (recogniced) via a good
 photo of the Prototype-A layout (both sides). Please send me your
 photos and rtell me, what you think about my idea,
 
 Dietmar
 
 PS: RGB lines of VGA ends on G1G1 layout direct in font of C51, C41,
 C86. If this is true, only Vsync and Hsync have to be found.
 
 Wikipedia says about the pins for VGA:
 
 Pin 1 RED Red video 
 Pin 2 GREEN Green video 
 Pin 3 BLUE Blue video 
 Pin 4 N/C Not connected 
 Pin 5 GND Ground (HSync) 
 Pin 6 RED_RTN Red return 
 Pin 7 GREEN_RTN Green return 
 Pin 8 BLUE_RTN Blue return 
 Pin 9 +5 V +5 V (DDC) 
 Pin 10 GND Ground (VSync, DDC) 
 Pin 11 N/C Not connected 
 Pin 12 SDA I²C data 
 Pin 13 HSync Horizontal sync 
 Pin 14 VSync Vertical sync 
 Pin 15 SCL I²C clock 
 
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Re: very simple datastore reimplementation

2008-05-13 Thread Jim Gettys
On Wed, 2008-05-14 at 11:15 +1200, Martin Langhoff wrote:
 On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 1:18 AM, Jim Gettys [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   The reason for FUSE (specifically via the new Gnome replacement for the
   old, unloved, GnomeVFS) is to enable better interoperability with
   non-Sugar applications (for example, when we are able to do versioning),
 
 And yet, at the exact point we start using FUSE we get in trouble with
 portability for Sugar apps.

Sugar apps have datastore dependencies in the first place, whether on
the current DS interface or a FUSE based one.  So it doesn't change the
situation there; apps talk to sugar, which talk to the DS, whether
implemented via olpcfs and Fuse or not.

 
 Can we shift the behaviour we want to put in the FUSE layer into a
 Sugar-level library that just uses POSIX underneath?
 

That's what olpcfs is doing: it exploits the POSIX interface as much as
possible, and if you read Scott's document (as I was today), you'll see
that
   - Jim


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Re: [Its.an.education.project] An OLPC Development Model

2008-05-09 Thread Jim Gettys
On Fri, 2008-05-09 at 15:30 +0200, Bobby Powers wrote:

 
 The way I see it it is somewhat of a two way street.  Personally, if
 I'm going to run Sugar apps in Gnome I would prefer them to integrate
 nicely with my other apps, just as I would prefer apps running in
 Sugar to be 'sugary'.  In this case the burdon falls on the shoulders
 of the activity developers.  

No, not in the X architecture.  Most of this can/should/will be hidden
in Sugar's libraries and window managers.

 From what I understand (and please correct me if I'm wrong!) Abiword
 is a good example - the text editor canvas is encapsolated as its own
 widget, and both the Gnome Abiword and the sugar activity use it in
 their respective user interfaces.  So nice modular UI code should make
 maintaing a Gnome and a Sugar version of a program relatively
 painless.  Again, please correct me if I'm wrong - I've been planning
 out what I want to do with a new activity and this is what I seem to
 have arrived at, if peoples experiences are different it could save me
 some headache...
 
 As for the sharing stuff, I know you can download and use the
 telepathy libs, but would you also need a presence service running?
 Could this be automatically started when an app wants to collaborate,
 or is it something that would have to be running in the background
 beforehand?

Either is possible.
  - Jim


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Re: very simple datastore reimplementation

2008-05-09 Thread Jim Gettys
FUSE is great, but...

It means interoperability must be an explicit planned-in-advance action:
if a datastore is already on a removable device in your pocket, and you
need to access something on a foreign system, you are stuck unless there
is some minimal level of human interpretability of the file system...

Instead, you have to dig up a system with FUSE/olpcfs installed, and
then copy the files to a conventional file structure.

This is the use case that's hard to get around.
- Jim


On Fri, 2008-05-09 at 11:50 +0200, Tomeu Vizoso wrote:

 FUSE helps to get files out from the DS with POSIX apps and tools, has
 nothing to do with USB sticks.
 
 Only files inside the internal structure are named with strange hashes.
 
  Having to have two different naming systems (one local, one removable
  device) seems like duplication that should be avoided (if possible).
 
 To which two different naming systems are you referring?
 
 Thanks,
 
 Tomeu
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Re: very simple datastore reimplementation

2008-05-09 Thread Jim Gettys
On Fri, 2008-05-09 at 11:42 +0200, Tomeu Vizoso wrote:

 
 If we internally store deltas, some kind of magic will need to happen
 so the user can access other than the last version.

Last version is by far the most common thing people want to access on a
casual basis
  - Jim

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Re: [Its.an.education.project] Sugar on the EEE PC

2008-05-09 Thread Jim Gettys
1:1 is really *very* important, for many reasons, not the least of which
is the following:

If a teacher cannot *rely* on a child having access to a computer for
teaching their class and/or homework, you are, in essence, asking them
to greatly *increase* their work-load, by having to prepare two
curricula, one computer based, and one conventionally based (on paper,
chalkboard, or in extreme cases dirt).  Teaching is tough enough as it
is without making the teacher's workload go up.

  - Jim

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Re: very simple datastore reimplementation

2008-05-08 Thread Jim Gettys
On Thu, 2008-05-08 at 20:22 +0200, Marco Pesenti Gritti wrote:
 On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 4:22 PM, Jim Gettys [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  On Thu, 2008-05-08 at 16:06 +0200, Tomeu Vizoso wrote:
On 5/8/08, Jim Gettys [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Thu, 2008-05-08 at 13:09 +, Tomeu Vizoso wrote:

  I'm having trouble understanding what you are requesting and what
  could be done about that.
 
  Can you please enumerate the requirements that affect the internal
  file layout and any other view that we may be able to provide?

 That there is *some* hope of finding a file by a human in a raw file
 system, that can be done with software already present on the 
  system
   
With the proposed metadata text file, there's already that hope. You
think it's not enough and you may very well be right. What I'm asking
is: how big an effort are we willing to devote to this and until which
point we want to compromise on robustness and simplicity?
 
   Until we know what the tradeoffs really are, we need to explore in this
   direction.  Names only as hashes has proved to be a major headache in
   practice in the field.
 
 That's true. But I also think the FUSE layer will make a big
 difference in this regard, at the point that it *might* be enough.

This doesn't begin to deal with a USB stick taken to a Windows box...
No FUSE on such systems.

Having to have two different naming systems (one local, one removable
device) seems like duplication that should be avoided (if possible).

- Jim


 I agree anyway that more transparency at the raw file system level
 would be desiderable and that we should figure out what are exactly
 the tradeoffs there.
 
 Marco
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Re: [Its.an.education.project] Sugar on the EEE PC

2008-05-08 Thread Jim Gettys
On Thu, 2008-05-08 at 13:35 -0400, Albert Cahalan wrote:

 
 It would take a real effort by OLPC to stop this
 rotten concept, but I don't see that happening.
 OLPC coldly and habitually ignores the USA.

Not true...  several cities are doing things.

But certainly we believe in child control of a laptop; not a shared
device that they get a small amount of the day
  - Jim

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Re: very simple datastore reimplementation

2008-05-07 Thread Jim Gettys
Please remember of the need for file names in the on disk structure
being human readable.  The need for interoperability (not just with
Sugar) is key.  This wasn't quite clear in your discussion.
 - Jim

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Re: very simple datastore reimplementation

2008-05-07 Thread Jim Gettys

On Wed, 2008-05-07 at 15:41 +, Tomeu Vizoso wrote:
 On Wed, May 7, 2008 at 11:33 AM, Jim Gettys [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Please remember of the need for file names in the on disk structure
   being human readable.  The need for interoperability (not just with
   Sugar) is key.  This wasn't quite clear in your discussion.
 
 I was thinking about this at this item:
 
  - Expose the files with a human readable name, for legacy apps and
  maybe for backups? Using a FUSE plugin?
 
 But I was intending to use the uid in the internal, private file
 structure as it will be more robust.
 
 A FUSE plugin may provide a POSIX API similar to the one in olpcfs,
 would this be enough to fulfill this concern?
 

FUSE doesn't help you either if you take a USB key to some other OS, nor
if you take the file structure to a Linux system until/unless we succeed
at making the olpcfs a standard on those systems.

These are not mutually exclusive options: you could concatenate a UID
with a human readable name.   All I care is that some poor guy who needs
to find some file has a prayer of doing so without a fancy database
conversion or some special software.

Another option is even to generate an HTML page that can be browsed to
provide an index: but this is less robust if the underlying file ever
gets separated from such an index page.
  - Jim


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Re: [Its.an.education.project] An OLPC Development Model

2008-05-07 Thread Jim Gettys
On Wed, 2008-05-07 at 09:17 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:
 On Tue, 6 May 2008, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  ubuntu takes packages maintaned externally and picks what version of each 
  of 
  those packages to put in the main distro. the versions of these seperate 
  packages are almost entirely independant of each other. they then do a lot 
  of 
  testing and some development of adminitrative tools and ship the result.
 
  unfortunantly much of the OLPC development has seemed to be against the 
  idea 
  of having external software run unmodified on sugar, and the resulting work 
  to get anything running will hurt this model.

David,

We must fix this  Help greatfully appreciated.  It isn't very much
work to get there from here.
   - Jim


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Re: 15 computer science collegians looking for a project

2008-05-05 Thread Jim Gettys
I'm told the new process through the web site the OLPC Austria folks set
up, referenced on the developer program page, has been made to work.
(my thanks to them for their great work)

Still one manual step at our end, but not the fully manual, error prone
process of before.
  - Jim


On Mon, 2008-05-05 at 17:36 +0200, NoiseEHC wrote:
 The keyboard does not matter since I will have to use an external 
 keyboard anyway (I have big hands). What is important is that I have to 
 be able to reflash the machine to use English and it has to be at least 
 a B3 or B4 (or G1G1 or whatever with the Geode LX). Shall I apply again?
 
 Jim Gettys wrote:
  I checked this morning now that I'm functioning again; the developer's
  program should be moving again, and volumes available should be much
  higher than before mass production (particularly if you can tolerate the
  Arabic keyboard, where we have stock that can be redirected right now).
 
  Sorry to be slow to respond; I came down sick with a nasty cold bug
  last week on top of recovering from surgery.  I'm only now wading
  through 1200 back unread mail messages.
 - Jim
 
 
 
  On Tue, 2008-04-29 at 07:04 -0400, Walter Bender wrote:

  I was perhaps under the mistaken impression that OLPC was dumping
  machines to developers like candy again after a hiatus due to a
  logistical snafu. Hmm.
 
  -walter
 
  2008/4/29 NoiseEHC [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
  
  Actually it is a funny proposal since without real XO machines it is a
   little bit hard to profile programs and since it seems that it is quite
   impossible nowadays to get a machine, they are out of luck. Exactly why
   does not OLPC just dump machines to developers like candy? Even if only
   1% of people do something about performance, it could be more cost
   effective than hiring 1 man for it (and the XO badly needs this work).
 
   BTW if you referring to this
   http://lists.laptop.org/pipermail/devel/2008-March/012033.html
   or this
   http://lists.laptop.org/pipermail/sugar/2006-September/000439.html
   then these are not easy and fast things either.
 
 
 
   Walter Bender wrote:
Any interest in the themes/topics Tomeu outlined in his email about
Sugar performance? Lots of interesting things to explore that would be
of real value to the project.
   
-walter
   
On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 1:38 PM, Patrick Jahenr
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   
Hi there,
   
 We are a group of 15 collegians, studying 'Applied Computer Science'
 at the University of Applied Sciences in Iserlohn (Germany) and we
 are looking for a project for the OLPC within the scope of our 
  subject
 Computer-Networks. Our professor (Prof. Martin Hühne) let us choose
 our own topic, leading us directly to our first problem: What can
 we do?
   
 We have to find a project fitting to this demand. We read the wiki
 and realised, that most of our ideas we thought we could implement
 are either finished software projects or simply not good enough to
 keep on thinking about them, because they do not fit to the OLPC-
 ideas. The wiki pages for Project ideas are nice, but you do not
 know exactly whether there is already someone working on one of the
 projects, or not. The Pages for Current Projects are quite nice too,
 but there you do not know if the people working on it actually do
 need help.
   
 That is why we post this little request to the readers of this 
  mailing
 list.
   
 We are looking for either a project we can take part on, or a not-
 yet-implemented idea. It should not bee too big for us in order to
 be finished within time; it should not be too small to have something
 to do for 15 students. (Anyway, don't forget we need to sleep)
 It would be nice, but not all necessary if the project could involve
 some of the networking technologies of the XO, I mean, the subject
 is Computer-Networks
   
 Furthermore, there is a time limit: We will have to end the project
 until end of June, whereas there will be the same subject for another
 group of students after our free period, which will have the same,
 or a similar task. Probably, they will go on, on our project, if
 its not finished.
   
 Our Knowledge Base:
 We have good basic knowledge in C/C++, Java, some basic knowledge
 in scripting languages (Perl, PHP and bash) and some of us have good
 knowledge of Linux. A further subject called Software-Engineering
 came along with us for one and a half year.
 We started reading and working in Python and GTK, and saw, we can
 cope that.
   
 We are open for all your suggestions, you can email me directly if
 you have a project we can take part on, but you could also just 
  answer
 here, if you have a good idea which of the project ideas we could
 implement.
   
 Thank you in advance

Re: 15 computer science collegians looking for a project

2008-05-05 Thread Jim Gettys
Specifically, the intent of the developer program is to support
development: it is not a back door way to get machines for small trials.

In general, it is in support of individual's needs (one or a few
machines), though we'll also consider a professor's request for a class
they are teaching, or a researcher wanting a (small) bunch of machines
for working mesh software.

What we don't want to see are front men who claim to be supporting a
set of developers, and acts as a gatekeeper for access to systems.

For example, if you have a set of 10 developers, I'd expect there to be
10 individual requests (for possibly significantly more than 10
machines).  If someone can't be bothered to fill out that minimal
information, they are unlikely to actually do anything with the machine,
and we've seen instances that appear to be individuals trying to use
their navigation of the developer program to further private agendas.

And yes, Aaron's nice work enables a group be able to evaluate these
requests (and that group be community based, not OLPC employees).
- Best regards,
- Jim


On Mon, 2008-05-05 at 18:07 +0200, Aaron Kaplan wrote:
 On May 5, 2008, at 6:04 PM, Kim Quirk wrote:
 
  If you have applied to the developer's program a few months ago,  
  please check to see if your application was transferred into the  
  new system:
 
  http://projectdb.olpc.at/
 
  If it is not there, I'm afraid you will have to apply again. The  
  idea with this new system is that there is a community who will  
  help evaluate the best uses for laptops. Please note that this  
  program is for single or two laptop requests, not quantities, so if  
  you request quantities of laptops, it will probably be refused.
 
  SJ, Aaron,
  Can you provide an overview of how the new system works? How  
  applications get reviewed and how often ship orders will be sent  
  out? How people get feedback on their request, etc?
 
 
 Sure!
 
 I will need to work more on the details about that with you and SJ of  
 course but I can make an initial proposal about the next steps.
 
 a.
 
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Re: [sugar] Sugar\Windows won't ship

2008-04-28 Thread Jim Gettys
Note I understand that metacity can be configured to use a dbus/gconf
version, rather than bringing in the dread CORBA/bonobo dependencies
we've worked so hard to avoid.  So don't let ldd mislead you that it
isn't worth a try; it is.

So Metacity is clearly one of the contenders.  This wasn't an option
when Sugar was started, though with 20-20 hindsight, we probably should
have used something other than matchbox from the beginning.
- Jim

On Mon, 2008-04-28 at 16:32 +0200, Tomeu Vizoso wrote:
 On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 4:25 PM, Jim Gettys [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
   On Mon, 2008-04-28 at 10:06 -0400, Walter Bender wrote:
I must have missed the post you refer to. It has never been the
position of the core Sugar team--that I am aware of--to preclude the
running of standard Linux apps. We even went so far as to hire a
contractor to look at various ways to facilitate the running of
standard X apps last summer---although that work was never completed
or brought into the main branch.
   
 
   Matthew Allum thinks we're best off not trying to force-fit this into
   matchbox (the window manager we're currently using), having done the
   experiment last summer.  He's not only the contractor, but also the
   original author of matchbox; so I think we should respect his opinion in
   this matter.
 
   We'll investigate alternative window managers, rather than flogging this
   horse, which is clearly dead for our purposes. Many of the modern ones
   honor full screen hints, and I've never seen Sugar's UI do much that
   isn't supported one way or the other by the ICCCM/EWMH's. It may take a
   bit of sugar work, but I'd be surprised it will be difficult.
 
 If someone would like to go ahead and try replacing matchbox with
 metacity, would be great ;)
 
 Thanks,
 
 Tomeu
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Re: [sugar] Sugar\Windows won't ship

2008-04-28 Thread Jim Gettys

On Mon, 2008-04-28 at 16:47 +0200, Marco Pesenti Gritti wrote:
 On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 4:32 PM, Tomeu Vizoso [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   If someone would like to go ahead and try replacing matchbox with
   metacity, would be great ;)
 
 And I'd be happy to help out whoever attempts it both on the Sugar and
 on the wm/X side... :)


Note that this work (should be) the same, no matter what window manager
we end up using.  Window managers have been pretty interchangeable
throughout X's history. That's what the ICCCM/EWMH's documents are all
about.  If there is something missing we need, we can/should/will work
with the freedesktop mailing list to catch the oversights.

I suspect we're using dbus in some places where we should just be using
the normal ICCCM/EWMH conventions.
 - Jim

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Where is Jim?

2008-04-23 Thread Jim Gettys
I've had at least one email query on the topic of where I've been the
last few months, as I've been scarce and very quiet. So I'll remove
speculation since not everyone hears the same things through the
grapevine, efficient though it may be.

I've just finished up the second of two rounds of surgery  for kidney
stones Monday. I had *a lot* of stones. I took vacation between the two
procedures (the good news is you have two kidneys; the bad news is you
have two kidneys).  So far, recovery from the second round is going
better than the first.  I should be back at work sometime next week or
at worst the week after. I intend to continue to take it easy this week.
   - Jim

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Re: Collaborative Activity Development

2008-04-14 Thread Jim Gettys
John,

We really would like to get the Sugar UI components running on vanilla
Linux desktops, and the apps all interoperating

Help greatfully appreciated...
  - Jim

On Mon, 2008-04-14 at 13:02 -0700, John Gilmore wrote:
 Morgan Collett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  I'm now working for OLPC, on improving activity collaboration.
 
 This is great!
 
 The best thing OLPC could do to improve activity collaboration is to
 get it working for ordinary programs -- running on the X Window
 System, or on MacOSX, or Windows.  Why doesn't AbiWord already
 collaborate with Write?  Why doesn't Firefox collaborate with Browse?
 It's the same code base.
 
 Tying collaboration to Sugar is a losing strategy.  Once the rest of
 the world figures out that *their* programs should be trivial to
 collaborate in too, they'll reimplement collaboration (likely in an
 incompatible way).  Then Sugar's collaboration will be an orphan
 rather than the mainstream.  Instead, if OLPC's collaboration code
 supported cross-platform collaboration, OLPC's model and its
 implementing code would spread throughout the whole computing
 infrastructure.  And that would bring in a new pile of contributors,
 enhancing, debugging, and porting it everywhere.
 
 Easy collaboration is one of OLPC's key advantages over its
 competition.  Making that a reality for all the kids (and adults) in
 the world requires a broader vision.  Merely debugging what makes
 Sugar apps fail to collaborate under load, or getting a few more Sugar
 authors to add collaboration, won't suffice.
 
   John
 
 PS:  If there is a simple way to install a couple of RPM's or DEB's, add
 a paragraph of code and a few automake macros, and add collaboration
 to any program written in C or C++, then please document it!  (If on
 the other hand it only works in Python and requires sugar-jhbuild
 then there's some work to be done.)
 
 PPS:  This review of AbiWord says:
 
   http://www.linux.com/feature/131852
 
   The new AbiWord supposedly offers real-time document collaboration
   developed for the OLPC project and implemented by means of an
   experimental plugin. As per the AbiWord-2.6 release notes, there are
   three implementations of the plugin, one for the OLPC, and two (an
   XMPP-based one and a pure TCP/IP one) for Linux. The Linux plugins
   compiled without any issues, but AbiWord couldn't activate them. The
   plugin isn't currently available for Windows.
 
   [abiword.com says the Windows plugin is available on 2.6.2 now.  But
   I never did find the collab plugin, nor any documentation for it.  The
   2.6.0 release notes imply that the three available collab plugins can't
   actually interoperate with each other!]
 
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Jim Gettys
One Laptop Per Child


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