Re: What to expect from developers, are there any left? (was Re: rotate button sucks on the XO)
NoiseEHC wrote: I do not even know where to look for log files to attach to a bug report. http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Reporting_bugs points you to http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Attaching_Sugar_logs_to_tickets 2. I can reliably (100%) trigger the cannot connect to WPA and the dialog asks for a password endlessly bug but unfortunately I do not know how to debug that thing. To tell you the truth I do not even know where to look for the code of NetworkManager I've seen useful output in /var/log/messages. -- =S Page ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
What to expect from developers, are there any left? (was Re: rotate button sucks on the XO)
p...@laptop.org wrote: but like david, i think that currently neither olpc nor sugarlabs is going to foster or champion their use: olpc has no resources for s/w development, and as far as i can tell, sugarlabs is targeting other h/w platforms just as strongly as the XO -- and other platforms don't have these screen issues. Witch the recent disbanding of the development team I simply cannot see what will happen to the XO development. I mean that 8.2.1 will be released and 9.1.0 is dropped but what I do not understand is what will happen with all the development for 9.1.0? What I heard is that those will be pushed upstream (whatever that means) but it is not clear if reporting bugs or talking about button layouts on the game pad will result in a new software release or is just a waste of time. What I mean is that should I also subscribe to some Fedora devel list (note that I do not know sh*t about linux development, packaging or anything like that) to keep informed or what? Currently I am writing a nice activity which teaches kids what to do when alien spaceships attacks Earth and it will take some time to finish. What should I do next? Can some insider comment on these issues please? ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
What to expect from developers, are there any left? (was Re: rotate button sucks on the XO)
Sorry, I wanted to post it toplevel. p...@laptop.org wrote: but like david, i think that currently neither olpc nor sugarlabs is going to foster or champion their use: olpc has no resources for s/w development, and as far as i can tell, sugarlabs is targeting other h/w platforms just as strongly as the XO -- and other platforms don't have these screen issues. Witch the recent disbanding of the development team I simply cannot see what will happen to the XO development. I mean that 8.2.1 will be released and 9.1.0 is dropped but what I do not understand is what will happen with all the development for 9.1.0? What I heard is that those will be pushed upstream (whatever that means) but it is not clear if reporting bugs or talking about button layouts on the game pad will result in a new software release or is just a waste of time. What I mean is that should I also subscribe to some Fedora devel list (note that I do not know sh*t about linux development, packaging or anything like that) to keep informed or what? Currently I am writing a nice activity which teaches kids what to do when alien spaceships attacks Earth and it will take some time to finish. What should I do next? Can some insider comment on these issues please? ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: What to expect from developers, are there any left? (was Re: rotate button sucks on the XO)
On 02.03.2009, at 11:04, NoiseEHC wrote: Currently I am writing a nice activity which teaches kids what to do when alien spaceships attacks Earth and it will take some time to finish. That's great! But make sure the game prepares them adequately: http://www.theonion.com/content/video/are_violent_video_games - Bert - ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: What to expect from developers, are there any left? (was Re: rotate button sucks on the XO)
2009/3/2 NoiseEHC noise...@freemail.hu: Witch the recent disbanding of the development team I simply cannot see what will happen to the XO development. I mean that 8.2.1 will be released and 9.1.0 is dropped but what I do not understand is what will happen with all the development for 9.1.0? What I heard is that those will be pushed upstream (whatever that means) but it is not clear if reporting bugs or talking about button layouts on the game pad will result in a new software release or is just a waste of time. What I mean is that should I also subscribe to some Fedora devel list (note that I do not know sh*t about linux development, packaging or anything like that) to keep informed or what? It is unlikely that you (as a user, rather than a deployment) reporting bugs to OLPC will result in another software release *direct from OLPC* (such as 8.2.2), because development of 8.2.x is mostly discontinued and will really only be driven by deployments. Have you read? http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Future_releases It may not answer all your questions but it is the most concrete documentation that I have seen so far. In terms of reporting bugs, the process of upstreaming everything basically means that OLPC is no longer the distributor and that bugs should be reported directly to the people who are more responsible for the them. What would you do if you ran Ubuntu on your main computer but some of the buttons on your keyboard were not working correctly? You would file a bug with Ubuntu, who would hopefully either fix the problem on their own back, or help you to report the issue to the developers of the related package (which would likely be one of the X.org input components, in the case of keyboard troubles). The same applies here -- install a distro on your XO and report bugs to the distributor. I recommend Fedora through Chris's rawhide-xo builds, bugzilla.redhat.com, and the fedora-olpc list. Currently I am writing a nice activity which teaches kids what to do when alien spaceships attacks Earth and it will take some time to finish. What should I do next? Work with the relevant upstream component. In this case, you are working on a sugar activity, so develop it as a platform-neutral activity at sugarlabs.org, and work with sugarlabs' standard processes of getting activities included in distributions. Daniel ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: What to expect from developers, are there any left?
noiseehc wrote: Sorry, I wanted to post it toplevel. p...@laptop.org wrote: but like david, i think that currently neither olpc nor sugarlabs is going to foster or champion their use: olpc has no resources for s/w development, and as far as i can tell, sugarlabs is targeting other h/w platforms just as strongly as the XO -- and other platforms don't have these screen issues. Witch the recent disbanding of the development team I simply cannot see what will happen to the XO development. I mean that 8.2.1 will be released and 9.1.0 is dropped but what I do not understand is what will happen with all the development for 9.1.0? What I heard is that those will be pushed upstream (whatever that means) but it is not clear if reporting bugs or talking about button layouts on the game pad will result in a new software release or is just a waste of time. What I mean is that should I also subscribe to some Fedora devel list (note that I do not know sh*t about linux development, packaging or anything like that) to keep informed or what? a brief conversation on #olpc-devel yesterday evening made it clear that there's a big gap in our understanding of the issues you're raising. it's entirely possible that some folks think the path forward is clear. i know that it's not to me. as i understand it, the goal is to push everything that's XO-specific into packages that are acceptable to fedora, at least in terms of not interfering with the rest of a stock fedora release. assuming we can do that (and i'm confident we can), the next step is to take a set of fedora rpms, mostly generic, some XO-specific, and create a distribution. what's opaque to me, currently, is: - who will do this - how often - what set of packages will be included - what the process will be for changing that set of packages OLPC has spoken pretty clearly (with deeds, if not words -- words have never been OLPC's strong point ;-) that it won't be doing s/w releases or distributions. so who will? Currently I am writing a nice activity which teaches kids what to do when alien spaceships attacks Earth and it will take some time to finish. What should I do next? this is a much simpler question: there's a lot of work going on in sugarland to help activity writers. since activities are released independently, the distribution aspects that affect XO base s/w aren't really an issue. http://sugarlabs.org/go/ActivityTeam Can some insider comment on these issues please? you may be overestimating a) the number of insiders, and b) their stash of undisclosed information. paul =- paul fox, p...@laptop.org ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: What to expect from developers, are there any left?
What would you do if you ran Ubuntu on your main computer but some of the buttons on your keyboard were not working correctly? You would file a bug with Ubuntu, who would hopefully either fix the problem on their own back, or help you to report the issue to the developers of the related package (which would likely be one of the X.org input components, in the case of keyboard troubles). The same applies here -- install a distro on your XO and report bugs to the distributor. I recommend Fedora through Chris's rawhide-xo builds, bugzilla.redhat.com, and the fedora-olpc list. Speaking for myself, if it was Ubuntu I wanted to run -- I would not choose the XO as the platform -- I would choose something more powerful, even if it cost more than $200 USD. I __have__ installed a distro (let's call it OLPC) on my XO, which provides goodies (such as a reasonably working OHM in Joyride) that other currently available distros don't. The advice given above (install a distro) seems to say: What you have now - throw it out !!. Thanks. mikus ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: What to expect from developers, are there any left?
On Mon, 2 Mar 2009, Mikus Grinbergs wrote: What would you do if you ran Ubuntu on your main computer but some of the buttons on your keyboard were not working correctly? You would file a bug with Ubuntu, who would hopefully either fix the problem on their own back, or help you to report the issue to the developers of the related package (which would likely be one of the X.org input components, in the case of keyboard troubles). The same applies here -- install a distro on your XO and report bugs to the distributor. I recommend Fedora through Chris's rawhide-xo builds, bugzilla.redhat.com, and the fedora-olpc list. I would also file a bug with the hardware supplier, in this case OLPC. now it turns out that this problem has mostly been solved at this point, but the fixes have not made it to all the distros (look at the file that debxo has created for example) there is already a fedora bug for this, and has been for many months. Speaking for myself, if it was Ubuntu I wanted to run -- I would not choose the XO as the platform -- I would choose something more powerful, even if it cost more than $200 USD. I __have__ installed a distro (let's call it OLPC) on my XO, which provides goodies (such as a reasonably working OHM in Joyride) that other currently available distros don't. The advice given above (install a distro) seems to say: What you have now - throw it out !!. Thanks. mikus except that it has been announced that the OLPC distro is not going to be developed further, and that the future is to use these other distros, so throwing them out and sticking wth the 'OLPC' distro is burying your head in the sand and ignoreing the fact that you need to be able to run those other distros in the near future. David Lang ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: What to expect from developers, are there any left? (was Re: rotate button sucks on the XO)
Daniel Drake wrote: It is unlikely that you (as a user, rather than a deployment) reporting bugs to OLPC will result in another software release *direct from OLPC* (such as 8.2.2), because development of 8.2.x is mostly discontinued and will really only be driven by deployments. Have you read? http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Future_releases It may not answer all your questions but it is the most concrete documentation that I have seen so far. I have already read that page and was aware of those issues. Unfortunately it does not answer my questions. In terms of reporting bugs, the process of upstreaming everything basically means that OLPC is no longer the distributor and that bugs should be reported directly to the people who are more responsible for the them. My main problem is that knowing who is more responsible requires knowing linux more that I am comfortable with (I am a Windows developer). Here are just 3 examples to show my point: 1. Today I noticed that my simple program can crash the whole sugar desktop and the X server. Shall I report it to somewhere? I do not even know where to look for log files to attach to a bug report. Also if nobody will fix it (I cannot fix it that is sure...) then why should I care? Does it mean that if no deployment will bark that the desktopX can be crashed then it will not be fixed ever? 2. I can reliably (100%) trigger the cannot connect to WPA and the dialog asks for a password endlessly bug but unfortunately I do not know how to debug that thing. To tell you the truth I do not even know where to look for the code of NetworkManager (somebody told that this can be the problem) and even if I knew it usually I cannot compile downloaded linux code for some arcane reason beyond my understanding. So for example in this situation what should I do? Is this NetworkManager part of some linux distro, or is it an XO thing? If it is part of fedora, who should I report bugs to? 3. Okay, I have forgot the third one... :) Note that I am totally aware that these things are not your responsibility, I would just like to have some answers from somebody. If the solution is installing some distro then I will do it, the big question is that which one will be the official one? What would you do if you ran Ubuntu on your main computer but some of the buttons on your keyboard were not working correctly? You would file a bug with Ubuntu, who would hopefully either fix the problem on their own back, or help you to report the issue to the developers of the related package (which would likely be one of the X.org input components, in the case of keyboard troubles). Frankly, if some of my buttons would not work in Ubuntu I would simply format the machine and install Windows. :) Work with the relevant upstream component. In this case, you are working on a sugar activity, so develop it as a platform-neutral activity at sugarlabs.org, and work with sugarlabs' standard processes of getting activities included in distributions. This is not an activity in the strictest sense, it is more like a library which shows what the XO hardware can do in animation. After that probably I will use the lessons learned to optimize GCompris and PyGame because currently they look like Powerpoint presentations... So the whole point is to work fast on a physical XO hardware. Of course if somebody will tell me that the XO is a dead thing and OLPC will cease then I will reconsider wasting my time. ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: What to expect from developers, are there any left? (was Re: rotate button sucks on the XO)
On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 12:39 PM, NoiseEHC noise...@freemail.hu wrote: Daniel Drake wrote: It is unlikely that you (as a user, rather than a deployment) reporting bugs to OLPC will result in another software release *direct from OLPC* (such as 8.2.2), because development of 8.2.x is mostly discontinued and will really only be driven by deployments. Have you read? http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Future_releases It may not answer all your questions but it is the most concrete documentation that I have seen so far. I have already read that page and was aware of those issues. Unfortunately it does not answer my questions. In terms of reporting bugs, the process of upstreaming everything basically means that OLPC is no longer the distributor and that bugs should be reported directly to the people who are more responsible for the them. My main problem is that knowing who is more responsible requires knowing linux more that I am comfortable with (I am a Windows developer). Here are just 3 examples to show my point: 1. Today I noticed that my simple program can crash the whole sugar desktop and the X server. Shall I report it to somewhere? I do not even know where to look for log files to attach to a bug report. Also if nobody will fix it (I cannot fix it that is sure...) then why should I care? Does it mean that if no deployment will bark that the desktopX can be crashed then it will not be fixed ever? I don't know what your simple program does, but it sounds like it could be a Sugar bug. You should file a ticket at dev.sugarlabs.org. If it is not related to Sugar, we'll try to pass the report along to the proper place. Log files are viewable with the Log Viewer Activity and also found in ~/.sugar/default/logs 2. I can reliably (100%) trigger the cannot connect to WPA and the dialog asks for a password endlessly bug but unfortunately I do not know how to debug that thing. To tell you the truth I do not even know where to look for the code of NetworkManager (somebody told that this can be the problem) and even if I knew it usually I cannot compile downloaded linux code for some arcane reason beyond my understanding. So for example in this situation what should I do? Is this NetworkManager part of some linux distro, or is it an XO thing? If it is part of fedora, who should I report bugs to? It does sound like NM. Look at ~/.sugar/default/nm There is still an engineer at OLPC looking into WPA on the latest builds. 3. Okay, I have forgot the third one... :) Cannot help you here. Note that I am totally aware that these things are not your responsibility, I would just like to have some answers from somebody. If the solution is installing some distro then I will do it, the big question is that which one will be the official one? Both OLPC and the Sugar team is working closely with the Fedora. Sugar is working with other distros as well, but for the XO hardware in the short term, Fedora is the most stable. What would you do if you ran Ubuntu on your main computer but some of the buttons on your keyboard were not working correctly? You would file a bug with Ubuntu, who would hopefully either fix the problem on their own back, or help you to report the issue to the developers of the related package (which would likely be one of the X.org input components, in the case of keyboard troubles). Frankly, if some of my buttons would not work in Ubuntu I would simply format the machine and install Windows. :) Work with the relevant upstream component. In this case, you are working on a sugar activity, so develop it as a platform-neutral activity at sugarlabs.org, and work with sugarlabs' standard processes of getting activities included in distributions. This is not an activity in the strictest sense, it is more like a library which shows what the XO hardware can do in animation. After that probably I will use the lessons learned to optimize GCompris and PyGame because currently they look like Powerpoint presentations... So the whole point is to work fast on a physical XO hardware. Of course if somebody will tell me that the XO is a dead thing and OLPC will cease then I will reconsider wasting my time. Cannot comment on where OLPC is going re XO hardware. Sugar Labs will not cease. -walter -- Walter Bender Sugar Labs http://www.sugarlabs.org ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: What to expect from developers, are there any left?
2009/3/2 p...@laptop.org: assuming we can do that (and i'm confident we can), the next step is to take a set of fedora rpms, mostly generic, some XO-specific, and create a distribution. what's opaque to me, currently, is: - who will do this - how often - what set of packages will be included - what the process will be for changing that set of packages OLPC has spoken pretty clearly (with deeds, if not words -- words have never been OLPC's strong point ;-) that it won't be doing s/w releases or distributions. so who will? My understanding: The distributions will. They already have development teams, release cycles, release engineering teams, etc. This is why the idea fits current-day OLPC very well, as OLPC no longer has the resources to do those things. As for packaging, at least for Fedora I guess that a group such as the OLPC-SIG would make the package decisions and processes. And ideally we'll want that streamlined and well documented so that deployments can make their own customizations. Daniel ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: What to expect from developers, are there any left? (was Re: rotate button sucks on the XO)
I don't know what your simple program does, but it sounds like it could be a Sugar bug. You should file a ticket at dev.sugarlabs.org. If it is not related to Sugar, we'll try to pass the report along to the proper place. http://dev.sugarlabs.org/ticket/465 It does sound like NM. Look at ~/.sugar/default/nm There is still an engineer at OLPC looking into WPA on the latest builds. Reported here, no answer: http://lists.laptop.org/pipermail/devel/2009-February/023504.html I just would like to know if testing is worthwhile or just wastes my time. Thanks anyway! ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: What to expect from developers, are there any left?
p...@laptop.org wrote: Cannot comment on the first part, I have no idea how this linux distro development thing goes... this is a much simpler question: there's a lot of work going on in sugarland to help activity writers. since activities are released independently, the distribution aspects that affect XO base s/w aren't really an issue. http://sugarlabs.org/go/ActivityTeam I have already answered this to Daniel Drake. Can some insider comment on these issues please? you may be overestimating a) the number of insiders, and b) their stash of undisclosed information From my point of view every linux/sugar developers are insiders in this project especially fedora developers. Do they all have an XO by now or OLPC just missed it? . paul =- paul fox, p...@laptop.org ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: What to expect from developers, are there any left? (was Re: rotate button sucks on the XO)
2009/3/2 NoiseEHC noise...@freemail.hu: My main problem is that knowing who is more responsible requires knowing linux more that I am comfortable with (I am a Windows developer). Here are just 3 examples to show my point: 1. Today I noticed that my simple program can crash the whole sugar desktop and the X server. Shall I report it to somewhere? I do not even know where to look for log files to attach to a bug report. Also if nobody will fix it (I cannot fix it that is sure...) then why should I care? Does it mean that if no deployment will bark that the desktopX can be crashed then it will not be fixed ever? If in doubt, report it to your distribution. Just like you would on your main desktop. It doesn't matter if you don't know how to debug or diagnose. Your distribution should have channels to help you figure that out. I don't understand why you deduce that nobody will fix whatever problem you are running into. And yes, in terms of the now-halted OLPC OS distribution, it is unlikely that there will be further OLPC OS releases unless deployments specifically ask. It takes a lot of OLPC engineering and QA time, and OLPC now has very few resources on those fronts. If you are looking to be using a software platform that is evolving, then you have to switch away from one where development has stopped :) 2. I can reliably (100%) trigger the cannot connect to WPA and the dialog asks for a password endlessly bug but unfortunately I do not know how to debug that thing. To tell you the truth I do not even know where to look for the code of NetworkManager (somebody told that this can be the problem) and even if I knew it usually I cannot compile downloaded linux code for some arcane reason beyond my understanding. So for example in this situation what should I do? Is this NetworkManager part of some linux distro, or is it an XO thing? If it is part of fedora, who should I report bugs to? Yes, NetworkManager is a package included in different Linux distributions, such as Fedora. You should report this problem to your distribution and see where things go from there. There is probably a report already. Google will help you find the code for networkmanager. Note that wireless bugs are very hard to fix. Especially in our case, because theres a big black box (the firmware) which is the cause of many of these issues. Don't be demotivated from filing other bug reports if the wireless one does not move quickly... Note that I am totally aware that these things are not your responsibility, I would just like to have some answers from somebody. If the solution is installing some distro then I will do it, the big question is that which one will be the official one? I don't think there will be an official one - that will be up to the users and deployments. Fedora seems to be the one with the most traction at the moment. This is not an activity in the strictest sense, it is more like a library which shows what the XO hardware can do in animation. After that probably I will use the lessons learned to optimize GCompris and PyGame because currently they look like Powerpoint presentations... So the whole point is to work fast on a physical XO hardware. OK, then my suggestion is to develop it as a distro-independent upstream project (e.g. like NetworkManager), and then package it for your favourite distribution and encourage other distributions to follow along. This is exactly the same process for if you were developing software for any hardware platform. Daniel ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
