Re: [OLPC New Zealand] Māori Macrons & olpc keyboard

[James Cameron]

On Sat, Jul 06, 2013 at 09:00:42AM +1200, Tom Parker wrote:
> On 06/07/13 05:37, Jerry Vonau wrote:>
> >
> > On 5 July 2013 07:01, Tom Parker  > > wrote:
> >
> > I now have a USB that re-flashes if you hold down the game keys,
> > reboots, sets the timezone, the language and the keyboard and then
> > prompts the user to press enter to shut down. If you don't hold down
> > the game keys it just does the customization which can be done more
> > than once without damage.
> >
> >
> > Care to share the forth scripting? Remember to have the AC plugged in
> > for the first boot, there maybe a firmware update in the image. I've
> > taken a slightly path using a menu for different operations and install
> > new firmware if present before installing the image.
> 
> No additional scripting, I'm relying on the built-in
> hold-down-game-keys-for-signed-build-reflash to select the
> behaviour.

I see.  The u:\fsN.zip handles the initial install, then when it
reboots the u:\boot\olpc.fth is handling the customisation.

> > There is a "press enter to shutdown" routine build into xo-custom are
> > you scripting the reboot question also?
> 
> If you're talking about the read < /dev/tty1 > /dev/tty1 I haven't
> changed it. It usually doesn't work. When it doesn't work, after
> pressing enter once, every second key-press is passed to the shell,
> until you press enter again and then it shuts down.

Sounds like concurrent I/O conflict with the shell on tty1.  Perhaps
xo-custom should chvt 8 and read and write from /dev/tty8.

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Re: [OLPC New Zealand] Māori Macrons & olpc keyboard

[Tom Parker]

On 06/07/13 05:37, Jerry Vonau wrote:>
>
> On 5 July 2013 07:01, Tom Parker  > wrote:
>
> I now have a USB that re-flashes if you hold down the game keys,
> reboots, sets the timezone, the language and the keyboard and then
> prompts the user to press enter to shut down. If you don't hold down
> the game keys it just does the customization which can be done more
> than once without damage.
>
>
> Care to share the forth scripting? Remember to have the AC plugged in
> for the first boot, there maybe a firmware update in the image. I've
> taken a slightly path using a menu for different operations and install
> new firmware if present before installing the image.

No additional scripting, I'm relying on the built-in 
hold-down-game-keys-for-signed-build-reflash to select the behaviour.


> There is a "press enter to shutdown" routine build into xo-custom are
> you scripting the reboot question also?

If you're talking about the read < /dev/tty1 > /dev/tty1 I haven't 
changed it. It usually doesn't work. When it doesn't work, after 
pressing enter once, every second key-press is passed to the shell, 
until you press enter again and then it shuts down.


> Do you mind sharing your
> scripts? I plan on using some examples in creating some better
> documentation for a how-to.

Attached. I wouldn't necessarily recommend the way I'm inserting the 
keyboard as I'm not following all the recommendations on the various 
keyboard related pages.


#!/bin/bash

cat << EOF > ~/.i18n
LANG="mi_NZ.utf8"
LANGUAGE="mi_NZ.utf8:en_NZ.utf8:en_GB.utf8:en_US.utf8"
EOF

gconftool-2  -s /desktop/sugar/date/timezone --type string Pacific/Auckland
#!/bin/bash

cp /usr/share/zoneinfo/Pacific/Auckland /etc/localtime

cp /media/mi /usr/share/X11/xkb/symbols
sed -i -e 's/us/mi/' /etc/sysconfig/keyboard
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Re: [OLPC New Zealand] Māori Macrons & olpc keyboard

[Jerry Vonau]

On 5 July 2013 07:01, Tom Parker  wrote:

> On 01/07/13 19:53, James Cameron wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Jul 01, 2013 at 07:35:03PM +1200, Tom Parker wrote:
>>
>>> xkbcomp $DISPLAY orig.xkb
>>> patch -p0 >> sudo cp orig.xkb /usr/share/X11/xkb/symbols/mi
>>> sudo vi /etc/sysconfig/keyboard
>>> ...
>>>
>>> Is Jerry's xs.custom
>>> http://lists.laptop.org/**pipermail/server-devel/2013-**June/006510.html
>>> suitable for customizing an XO?
>>>
>>
>> Yes.  It would apply the changes you describe reasonably easily.
>>
>
> Indeed it does work, although I had to add support for the XO-4 HS Touch
> and XO-4 Touch, I've sent you a patch.
>
>
Thanks,


> I now have a USB that re-flashes if you hold down the game keys, reboots,
> sets the timezone, the language and the keyboard and then prompts the user
> to press enter to shut down. If you don't hold down the game keys it just
> does the customization which can be done more than once without damage.
>
>
Care to share the forth scripting? Remember to have the AC plugged in for
the first boot, there maybe a firmware update in the image. I've taken a
slightly path using a menu for different operations and install new
firmware if present before installing the image.


> The only wrinkle is that most of the time I have to press enter twice to
> get it to quit at the end which is hardly worth complaining about but had
> me stumped for a minute or two the first time.
>
>
There is a "press enter to shutdown" routine build into xo-custom are you
scripting the reboot question also?


> Also I had trouble finding the xo-custom thing, so for the record, it's an
> optional configuration of Tiny Core Linux described at
> http://wiki.laptop.org/go/**Tiny_Core_LinuxYou
>  will have to clone the git repo and build it from scratch to get the
> xo-custom behavior.
>
>
I'm going to place the Tiny Core files to be available for download so all
you have to add is your own scripting. Do you mind sharing your scripts? I
plan on using some examples in creating some better documentation for a
how-to.

Thanks for testing,

Jerry

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Re: [OLPC New Zealand] Māori Macrons & olpc keyboard

[Tom Parker]

On 01/07/13 19:53, James Cameron wrote:

On Mon, Jul 01, 2013 at 07:35:03PM +1200, Tom Parker wrote:

xkbcomp $DISPLAY orig.xkb
patch -p0 http://lists.laptop.org/pipermail/server-devel/2013-June/006510.html
suitable for customizing an XO?


Yes.  It would apply the changes you describe reasonably easily.


Indeed it does work, although I had to add support for the XO-4 HS Touch 
and XO-4 Touch, I've sent you a patch.


I now have a USB that re-flashes if you hold down the game keys, 
reboots, sets the timezone, the language and the keyboard and then 
prompts the user to press enter to shut down. If you don't hold down the 
game keys it just does the customization which can be done more than 
once without damage.


The only wrinkle is that most of the time I have to press enter twice to 
get it to quit at the end which is hardly worth complaining about but 
had me stumped for a minute or two the first time.


Also I had trouble finding the xo-custom thing, so for the record, it's 
an optional configuration of Tiny Core Linux described at 
http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Tiny_Core_Linux You will have to clone the git 
repo and build it from scratch to get the xo-custom behavior.

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Re: [OLPC New Zealand] Māori Macrons & olpc keyboard

[James Cameron]

On Mon, Jul 01, 2013 at 07:35:03PM +1200, Tom Parker wrote:
> xkbcomp $DISPLAY orig.xkb
> patch -p0  sudo cp orig.xkb /usr/share/X11/xkb/symbols/mi
> sudo vi /etc/sysconfig/keyboard
> ...
> 
> Is Jerry's xs.custom
> http://lists.laptop.org/pipermail/server-devel/2013-June/006510.html
> suitable for customizing an XO?

Yes.  It would apply the changes you describe reasonably easily.

(In my opinion the file name should have been HOWTO.xo-custom and
that's how I'm merging this contribution from Jerry.)

The XO must be unsecured, or the deployment keys must be used to sign
the kernel and initrd files.  Beware that unlike the original OLPC
customisation stick, Tiny Core Linux is not a secure environment, and
so if you find yourself signing make sure that the only reason you are
doing it is for ease of use, not deployment security.

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Re: [OLPC New Zealand] Māori Macrons & olpc keyboard

[Tom Parker]

On 26/06/13 22:16, Tom Parker wrote:

What is the best way to modify the laptops? Copying modified output of
xkbcomp to /usr/share/X11/xkb/symbols/mi and running

setxkbmap mi

does the trick, but setting the content of /home/olpc/.Xkbmap to mi does
not make this the default after reboot.


There is a clue on the Manufacturing Data page on the olpc wiki, you 
need to modify /etc/sysconfig/keyboard and change the "us" to "mi".


So to recap,

To create and install a new Maori keyboard using the maori.patch from my 
previous mail:


xkbcomp $DISPLAY orig.xkb
patch -p0 This isn't the "right" way to do it, but it works and is probably good 
enough for now. If the users like the layout we'll do what we need to do 
to get it into the build.


Is Jerry's xs.custom 
http://lists.laptop.org/pipermail/server-devel/2013-June/006510.html 
suitable for customizing an XO?

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Re: [OLPC New Zealand] Māori Macrons & olpc keyboard

[Tom Parker]

On 26/06/13 10:52, Walter Bender wrote:

The widget was broken until recently. Not sure my patches have landed
in any releases yet. But we should be able to make a layout that works
for both English and Maori without any end-user intervention. Will try
to get to it this week.


Attached is a patch to the output of xkbcomp on an XO-4 with mechanical 
keyboard. Sorry it's not in style of the files in /usr/share/X11/xkb, I 
still haven't been able to unravel how those files work. I think I can 
make an mi file that just has the changed lines, which layout should I 
use as a base? I'm guessing I might need to do something different for 
the membrane and mechanical keyboards?


What is the best way to modify the laptops? Copying modified output of 
xkbcomp to /usr/share/X11/xkb/symbols/mi and running


setxkbmap mi

does the trick, but setting the content of /home/olpc/.Xkbmap to mi does 
not make this the default after reboot.
--- orig.xkb	2013-06-26 09:28:21.770500621 +
+++ test.xkb	2013-06-26 09:28:07.050500619 +
@@ -1188,7 +1188,7 @@
 key  {
 type= "FOUR_LEVEL_ALPHABETIC",
 repeat= No,
-symbols[Group1]= [   e,   E,  oe,  OE ]
+symbols[Group1]= [   e,   E,   U0113,   U0112 ]
 };
 key  {
 type= "FOUR_LEVEL_SEMIALPHABETIC",
@@ -1208,17 +1208,17 @@
 key  {
 type= "FOUR_LEVEL_SEMIALPHABETIC",
 repeat= No,
-symbols[Group1]= [   u,   U,   U032D,   U032D ]
+symbols[Group1]= [   u,   U,   U016B,   U016A ]
 };
 key  {
 type= "FOUR_LEVEL_SEMIALPHABETIC",
 repeat= No,
-symbols[Group1]= [   i,   I,   U032C,   U032C ]
+symbols[Group1]= [   i,   I,   U012B,   U012A ]
 };
 key  {
 type= "FOUR_LEVEL_SEMIALPHABETIC",
 repeat= No,
-symbols[Group1]= [   o,   O,   U0323,   U0323 ]
+symbols[Group1]= [   o,   O,   U014D,   U014C ]
 };
 key  {
 type= "FOUR_LEVEL_SEMIALPHABETIC",
@@ -1246,7 +1246,7 @@
 key  {
 type= "FOUR_LEVEL_ALPHABETIC",
 repeat= No,
-symbols[Group1]= [   a,   A,  ae,  AE ]
+symbols[Group1]= [   a,   A,   U0101,   U0100 ]
 };
 key  {
 type= "FOUR_LEVEL_SEMIALPHABETIC",
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Re: [OLPC New Zealand] Māori Macrons & olpc keyboard

[Tom Parker]

On 26/06/13 00:22, Barry Vercoe wrote:
> Tom, it's not correct to say the laptops will remain in Maori.

Sorry, I should have clarified that I was referring to the keyboard only. I 
think the difference between the current olpc keyboard and a customized Maori 
one will be minor. We'll replace the æ œ ̬  ̣  ̭  characters with the macron 
vowels. I don't think this will present any problems if we make it difficult to 
reverse until a Maori keyboard and a keyboard chooser are built into the 
operating system.

I don't know how to do the windows style grave modifier on linux and for 
consistency with other Linux Maori keyboards, I think alt-gr - vowel will be a 
better starting place than the default setup.

Switching the rest of the laptop to other languages is a different matter and I 
wouldn't propose to stop that!

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Re: Māori Macrons & olpc keyboard

[Gonzalo Odiard]

Maybe the font used is related to this issue?
You can test using abiword from gnome or the terminal,
and try different fonts.

Gonzalo


On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 7:53 AM, Tom Parker  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I'm looking at how you enter a macron for Māori language users.
>
> It seems that the olpc us international keyboard binds a ̄  COMBINING
> MACRON (unicode U+0304) to algr + hyphan. When typed after the letter a you
> get ā which is similar to but not the same as ā LATIN SMALL LETTER A WITH
> MACRON (unicode U+0101).
>
> Issues I've noted with a small amount of testing:
>
> On older builds, Write does not correctly load files containing the
> combining macron.
> The combining macron is not rendered at the correct height for lower case
> letters. (on older builds this seems to be the case all the time, on newer
> builds, it is rendered correctly after loading a file until you delete a
> following character the on the same line, then it jumps up)
> You can have more than one combining macron, they stack.
> You have to delete twice, once to delete the macron and again to delete
> the character.
>
> Have these issues come up before? I don't see any. I will raise tickets
> for the bugs rendering the macron in the latest version of write shortly.
> I'm not sure if anyone wants a ticket for older builds? Obviously stacking
> macrons is by-design when using the combining macron character (see
> https://twitter.com/glitchr_/ for more improbable outcomes of combining
> characters, perhaps your browser will crash).
>
> I haven't yet experimented with entering the ā U+0101 characters into
> sugar (tomorrow!)
>
> Apparently on Windows, the Māori keyboard is set up such that when you hit
> the grave (apparently this is what I have always called the backtick) key
> and then one of the vowels, you get the macron version of the vowel. I
> haven't seen this in action but Māori typists claim it is very efficient.
>
> Gnome on Ubuntu on my laptop binds right-alt-a to ā U+0101 when using the
> Māori keyboard layout. I'm not sure how Maori typists feel about this
> inconsistency with windows.
>
> When you choose the language in sugar, can this change the keyboard layout
> too? If not, what is the recommended way to configure this?
>
> How complex is it to change the localization of the keyboard for the Maori
> language? The xkb files don't look too complicated. Is the grave - vowel =
> macron vowel possible while still preserving the backtick for shell
> scripting? I haven't seen the laptops in question but I'm told they have
> the Australian simplified key caps, so changing the existing alt-gr
> mappings to render macron vowels (ie to mimic the Maori keyboard option on
> Gnome-Ubuntu) instead of the existing mappings won't confuse the key caps.
>
> Obviously touching all the laptops to change how the keyboard works is a
> pain and the change is potentially erased by future updates.
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Re: [OLPC New Zealand] Māori Macrons & olpc keyboard

[Walter Bender]

The widget was broken until recently. Not sure my patches have landed
in any releases yet. But we should be able to make a layout that works
for both English and Maori without any end-user intervention. Will try
to get to it this week.

-walter

On Tue, Jun 25, 2013 at 9:07 AM, Sridhar Dhanapalan
 wrote:
> On 24/06/2013 9:43 PM, "Walter Bender"  wrote:
>>
>> Which build are you running? In the latest Sugar builds, there is a
>> keyboard settings control panel section. We could probably backport it
>> to your build if it is reasonably recent.
>
> I remember that perhaps a year ago we had to remove the keyboard applet
> because it was causing some weird side effects. It wasn't a concern at the
> time because our focus was on English.



-- 
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Sugar Labs
http://www.sugarlabs.org
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Re: [OLPC New Zealand] Māori Macrons & olpc keyboard

[Sridhar Dhanapalan]

On 24/06/2013 9:43 PM, "Walter Bender"  wrote:
>
> Which build are you running? In the latest Sugar builds, there is a
> keyboard settings control panel section. We could probably backport it
> to your build if it is reasonably recent.

I remember that perhaps a year ago we had to remove the keyboard applet
because it was causing some weird side effects. It wasn't a concern at the
time because our focus was on English.
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Re: Māori Macrons & olpc keyboard

[Barry Vercoe]

Tom, it's not correct to say the laptops will remain in Maori.  Many 
schools have both Maori and English classes, and the ability of these 
machines to cross the boundary, to have a child work either in their 
first language or (with a simple switch in Settings->Language) to gain 
experience in another, is one of our strong features.  Having the switch 
relatively easy is a great, and I've seen some kids do it while I'm 
supposedly talking to them.


Incidentally, there's a _bug _when declaring the second language 
second.  It seems that whichever language is _last declared_ becomes the 
current language in which alternative languages are expressed -- as for 
instance for the list within _Speak_. Since I don't yet have a Maori 
version of the ESPEAK voice engine (takers anyone?), and since English 
pronunciation and prosody is a poor substitute, I routinely tell the 
children typing in Maori to set the _Speak _language to Vietnamese.  
This is a surprisingly good substitute.  But it becomes hard to find if 
someone has last set the login 2nd language to Arabic.  This bug 
shouldn't be hard to fix.  Until then, declare your #2 language first, 
and your #1 language last.


-- barry

On 25/06/2013 10:51 p.m., Tom Parker wrote:

On 24/06/13 23:43, Walter Bender wrote:

Which build are you running? In the latest Sugar builds, there is a
keyboard settings control panel section. We could probably backport it
to your build if it is reasonably recent.


I don't know which build they are running. I've tried

One Education OS 1.2 (build au889) with Sugar 0.94.1
13.2.0 for XO-4 (build 10) with Sugar 0.98.7
XO-system 1a for XO-4 (build 34) with Sugar 0.98.7

and none of them have a keyboard settings thing.

I don't think a keyboard settings control panel is immediately 
necessary as the laptops will remain in Maori. It would be good in a 
future release if we could say "after reflashing, set your language 
and keyboard to maori" without having to resort to customizations.



Meanwhile, we may have to make a new X keyboard symbols file for you
that does the right thing. Not impossible to get upstreamed.


I wasn't really able understand the /usr/share/X11/xkb directory, but 
using xkbcomp to retrieve the current config, modify it and return it 
to the X server does the trick.


Is there a document that describes the "right" way to add a keyboard 
and select it? Using xkbcomp in a startup script might work but is 
obviously a hack. 
http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Creating_A_New_Keyboard_Layout seems to 
cover this but appears to be out of date.


Until we get feedback from the actual users about what they want their 
keyboards to do, I think it's best to customize the build they have 
rather than upstream something and get a new build.


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Re: Māori Macrons & olpc keyboard

[Tom Parker]

On 24/06/13 23:43, Walter Bender wrote:

Which build are you running? In the latest Sugar builds, there is a
keyboard settings control panel section. We could probably backport it
to your build if it is reasonably recent.


I don't know which build they are running. I've tried

One Education OS 1.2 (build au889) with Sugar 0.94.1
13.2.0 for XO-4 (build 10) with Sugar 0.98.7
XO-system 1a for XO-4 (build 34) with Sugar 0.98.7

and none of them have a keyboard settings thing.

I don't think a keyboard settings control panel is immediately necessary 
as the laptops will remain in Maori. It would be good in a future 
release if we could say "after reflashing, set your language and 
keyboard to maori" without having to resort to customizations.



Meanwhile, we may have to make a new X keyboard symbols file for you
that does the right thing. Not impossible to get upstreamed.


I wasn't really able understand the /usr/share/X11/xkb directory, but 
using xkbcomp to retrieve the current config, modify it and return it to 
the X server does the trick.


Is there a document that describes the "right" way to add a keyboard and 
select it? Using xkbcomp in a startup script might work but is obviously 
a hack. http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Creating_A_New_Keyboard_Layout seems 
to cover this but appears to be out of date.


Until we get feedback from the actual users about what they want their 
keyboards to do, I think it's best to customize the build they have 
rather than upstream something and get a new build.

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Re: [OLPC New Zealand] Māori Macrons & olpc keyboard

[Barry Vercoe]

Hi, on SHC 205002233
running 13.1.0 for XO-1.75 (build 20)
with Sugar 0.98.2
firmware Q4D24

For Text in both Write and Turtle Art (the Title panel):
vowel + altgr - gives the Combining Macron, i.e. two bkspcs to 
remove the letter
But if either Activity is saved to the Journal and we write into its 
Description panel
vowel + altgr - gives the Unicode version, i.e. one bksp removes 
the letter.


So we do have the right behavior in there somewhere.
-- barry


On 25/06/2013 12:13 a.m., Walter Bender wrote:

On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 8:12 AM, Jerry Vonau  wrote:


On 24 June 2013 06:43, Walter Bender  wrote:

Which build are you running? In the latest Sugar builds, there is a
keyboard settings control panel section. We could probably backport it
to your build if it is reasonably recent.


In OLPC's & Dextrose's versions of sugar the sugar-cp-keyboard rpm doesn't
get installed. Think there is a conflict over the keyboard with
olpc-configure supplied by olpc-utils.

I can poke around to see if I can get it to work.

-walter


Jerry


Meanwhile, we may have to make a new X keyboard symbols file for you
that does the right thing. Not impossible to get upstreamed.

regards.

-walter

On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 6:53 AM, Tom Parker  wrote:

Hi,

I'm looking at how you enter a macron for Māori language users.

It seems that the olpc us international keyboard binds a ̄  COMBINING
MACRON
(unicode U+0304) to algr + hyphan. When typed after the letter a you get
ā
which is similar to but not the same as ā LATIN SMALL LETTER A WITH
MACRON
(unicode U+0101).

Issues I've noted with a small amount of testing:

On older builds, Write does not correctly load files containing the
combining macron.
The combining macron is not rendered at the correct height for lower
case
letters. (on older builds this seems to be the case all the time, on
newer
builds, it is rendered correctly after loading a file until you delete a
following character the on the same line, then it jumps up)
You can have more than one combining macron, they stack.
You have to delete twice, once to delete the macron and again to delete
the
character.

Have these issues come up before? I don't see any. I will raise tickets
for
the bugs rendering the macron in the latest version of write shortly.
I'm
not sure if anyone wants a ticket for older builds? Obviously stacking
macrons is by-design when using the combining macron character (see
https://twitter.com/glitchr_/ for more improbable outcomes of combining
characters, perhaps your browser will crash).

I haven't yet experimented with entering the ā U+0101 characters into
sugar
(tomorrow!)

Apparently on Windows, the Māori keyboard is set up such that when you
hit
the grave (apparently this is what I have always called the backtick)
key
and then one of the vowels, you get the macron version of the vowel. I
haven't seen this in action but Māori typists claim it is very
efficient.

Gnome on Ubuntu on my laptop binds right-alt-a to ā U+0101 when using
the
Māori keyboard layout. I'm not sure how Maori typists feel about this
inconsistency with windows.

When you choose the language in sugar, can this change the keyboard
layout
too? If not, what is the recommended way to configure this?

How complex is it to change the localization of the keyboard for the
Maori
language? The xkb files don't look too complicated. Is the grave - vowel
=
macron vowel possible while still preserving the backtick for shell
scripting? I haven't seen the laptops in question but I'm told they have
the
Australian simplified key caps, so changing the existing alt-gr mappings
to
render macron vowels (ie to mimic the Maori keyboard option on
Gnome-Ubuntu)
instead of the existing mappings won't confuse the key caps.

Obviously touching all the laptops to change how the keyboard works is a
pain and the change is potentially erased by future updates.
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Re: [OLPC New Zealand] Māori Macrons & olpc keyboard

[Walter Bender]

Could you please try with the latest version of Turtle Art (v182)?

thx

-walter

On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 9:30 AM, Barry Vercoe  wrote:
> Hi, on SHC 205002233
> running 13.1.0 for XO-1.75 (build 20)
> with Sugar 0.98.2
> firmware Q4D24
>
> For Text in both Write and Turtle Art (the Title panel):
> vowel + altgr - gives the Combining Macron, i.e. two bkspcs to remove
> the letter
> But if either Activity is saved to the Journal and we write into its
> Description panel
> vowel + altgr - gives the Unicode version, i.e. one bksp removes the
> letter.
>
> So we do have the right behavior in there somewhere.
> -- barry
>
>
> On 25/06/2013 12:13 a.m., Walter Bender wrote:
>
> On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 8:12 AM, Jerry Vonau  wrote:
>
> On 24 June 2013 06:43, Walter Bender  wrote:
>
> Which build are you running? In the latest Sugar builds, there is a
> keyboard settings control panel section. We could probably backport it
> to your build if it is reasonably recent.
>
> In OLPC's & Dextrose's versions of sugar the sugar-cp-keyboard rpm doesn't
> get installed. Think there is a conflict over the keyboard with
> olpc-configure supplied by olpc-utils.
>
> I can poke around to see if I can get it to work.
>
> -walter
>
> Jerry
>
> Meanwhile, we may have to make a new X keyboard symbols file for you
> that does the right thing. Not impossible to get upstreamed.
>
> regards.
>
> -walter
>
> On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 6:53 AM, Tom Parker  wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I'm looking at how you enter a macron for Māori language users.
>
> It seems that the olpc us international keyboard binds a ̄  COMBINING
> MACRON
> (unicode U+0304) to algr + hyphan. When typed after the letter a you get
> ā
> which is similar to but not the same as ā LATIN SMALL LETTER A WITH
> MACRON
> (unicode U+0101).
>
> Issues I've noted with a small amount of testing:
>
> On older builds, Write does not correctly load files containing the
> combining macron.
> The combining macron is not rendered at the correct height for lower
> case
> letters. (on older builds this seems to be the case all the time, on
> newer
> builds, it is rendered correctly after loading a file until you delete a
> following character the on the same line, then it jumps up)
> You can have more than one combining macron, they stack.
> You have to delete twice, once to delete the macron and again to delete
> the
> character.
>
> Have these issues come up before? I don't see any. I will raise tickets
> for
> the bugs rendering the macron in the latest version of write shortly.
> I'm
> not sure if anyone wants a ticket for older builds? Obviously stacking
> macrons is by-design when using the combining macron character (see
> https://twitter.com/glitchr_/ for more improbable outcomes of combining
> characters, perhaps your browser will crash).
>
> I haven't yet experimented with entering the ā U+0101 characters into
> sugar
> (tomorrow!)
>
> Apparently on Windows, the Māori keyboard is set up such that when you
> hit
> the grave (apparently this is what I have always called the backtick)
> key
> and then one of the vowels, you get the macron version of the vowel. I
> haven't seen this in action but Māori typists claim it is very
> efficient.
>
> Gnome on Ubuntu on my laptop binds right-alt-a to ā U+0101 when using
> the
> Māori keyboard layout. I'm not sure how Maori typists feel about this
> inconsistency with windows.
>
> When you choose the language in sugar, can this change the keyboard
> layout
> too? If not, what is the recommended way to configure this?
>
> How complex is it to change the localization of the keyboard for the
> Maori
> language? The xkb files don't look too complicated. Is the grave - vowel
> =
> macron vowel possible while still preserving the backtick for shell
> scripting? I haven't seen the laptops in question but I'm told they have
> the
> Australian simplified key caps, so changing the existing alt-gr mappings
> to
> render macron vowels (ie to mimic the Maori keyboard option on
> Gnome-Ubuntu)
> instead of the existing mappings won't confuse the key caps.
>
> Obviously touching all the laptops to change how the keyboard works is a
> pain and the change is potentially erased by future updates.
> ___
> Devel mailing list
> Devel@lists.laptop.org
> http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
>
>
> --
> Walter Bender
> Sugar Labs
> http://www.sugarlabs.org
> ___
> OLPC-NZ mailing list
> olpc...@lists.laptop.org
> http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/olpc-nz
>
>
>
> --
> Walter Bender
> Sugar Labs
> http://www.sugarlabs.org
>
>



-- 
Walter Bender
Sugar Labs
http://www.sugarlabs.org
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Re: [OLPC New Zealand] Māori Macrons & olpc keyboard

[Walter Bender]

On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 8:12 AM, Jerry Vonau  wrote:
>
>
> On 24 June 2013 06:43, Walter Bender  wrote:
>>
>> Which build are you running? In the latest Sugar builds, there is a
>> keyboard settings control panel section. We could probably backport it
>> to your build if it is reasonably recent.
>>
>
> In OLPC's & Dextrose's versions of sugar the sugar-cp-keyboard rpm doesn't
> get installed. Think there is a conflict over the keyboard with
> olpc-configure supplied by olpc-utils.

I can poke around to see if I can get it to work.

-walter

>
> Jerry
>
>>
>> Meanwhile, we may have to make a new X keyboard symbols file for you
>> that does the right thing. Not impossible to get upstreamed.
>>
>> regards.
>>
>> -walter
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 6:53 AM, Tom Parker  wrote:
>> > Hi,
>> >
>> > I'm looking at how you enter a macron for Māori language users.
>> >
>> > It seems that the olpc us international keyboard binds a ̄  COMBINING
>> > MACRON
>> > (unicode U+0304) to algr + hyphan. When typed after the letter a you get
>> > ā
>> > which is similar to but not the same as ā LATIN SMALL LETTER A WITH
>> > MACRON
>> > (unicode U+0101).
>> >
>> > Issues I've noted with a small amount of testing:
>> >
>> > On older builds, Write does not correctly load files containing the
>> > combining macron.
>> > The combining macron is not rendered at the correct height for lower
>> > case
>> > letters. (on older builds this seems to be the case all the time, on
>> > newer
>> > builds, it is rendered correctly after loading a file until you delete a
>> > following character the on the same line, then it jumps up)
>> > You can have more than one combining macron, they stack.
>> > You have to delete twice, once to delete the macron and again to delete
>> > the
>> > character.
>> >
>> > Have these issues come up before? I don't see any. I will raise tickets
>> > for
>> > the bugs rendering the macron in the latest version of write shortly.
>> > I'm
>> > not sure if anyone wants a ticket for older builds? Obviously stacking
>> > macrons is by-design when using the combining macron character (see
>> > https://twitter.com/glitchr_/ for more improbable outcomes of combining
>> > characters, perhaps your browser will crash).
>> >
>> > I haven't yet experimented with entering the ā U+0101 characters into
>> > sugar
>> > (tomorrow!)
>> >
>> > Apparently on Windows, the Māori keyboard is set up such that when you
>> > hit
>> > the grave (apparently this is what I have always called the backtick)
>> > key
>> > and then one of the vowels, you get the macron version of the vowel. I
>> > haven't seen this in action but Māori typists claim it is very
>> > efficient.
>> >
>> > Gnome on Ubuntu on my laptop binds right-alt-a to ā U+0101 when using
>> > the
>> > Māori keyboard layout. I'm not sure how Maori typists feel about this
>> > inconsistency with windows.
>> >
>> > When you choose the language in sugar, can this change the keyboard
>> > layout
>> > too? If not, what is the recommended way to configure this?
>> >
>> > How complex is it to change the localization of the keyboard for the
>> > Maori
>> > language? The xkb files don't look too complicated. Is the grave - vowel
>> > =
>> > macron vowel possible while still preserving the backtick for shell
>> > scripting? I haven't seen the laptops in question but I'm told they have
>> > the
>> > Australian simplified key caps, so changing the existing alt-gr mappings
>> > to
>> > render macron vowels (ie to mimic the Maori keyboard option on
>> > Gnome-Ubuntu)
>> > instead of the existing mappings won't confuse the key caps.
>> >
>> > Obviously touching all the laptops to change how the keyboard works is a
>> > pain and the change is potentially erased by future updates.
>> > ___
>> > Devel mailing list
>> > Devel@lists.laptop.org
>> > http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Walter Bender
>> Sugar Labs
>> http://www.sugarlabs.org
>> ___
>> OLPC-NZ mailing list
>> olpc...@lists.laptop.org
>> http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/olpc-nz
>
>



--
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Sugar Labs
http://www.sugarlabs.org
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Re: Māori Macrons & olpc keyboard

[Walter Bender]

Which build are you running? In the latest Sugar builds, there is a
keyboard settings control panel section. We could probably backport it
to your build if it is reasonably recent.

Meanwhile, we may have to make a new X keyboard symbols file for you
that does the right thing. Not impossible to get upstreamed.

regards.

-walter

On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 6:53 AM, Tom Parker  wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I'm looking at how you enter a macron for Māori language users.
>
> It seems that the olpc us international keyboard binds a ̄  COMBINING MACRON
> (unicode U+0304) to algr + hyphan. When typed after the letter a you get ā
> which is similar to but not the same as ā LATIN SMALL LETTER A WITH MACRON
> (unicode U+0101).
>
> Issues I've noted with a small amount of testing:
>
> On older builds, Write does not correctly load files containing the
> combining macron.
> The combining macron is not rendered at the correct height for lower case
> letters. (on older builds this seems to be the case all the time, on newer
> builds, it is rendered correctly after loading a file until you delete a
> following character the on the same line, then it jumps up)
> You can have more than one combining macron, they stack.
> You have to delete twice, once to delete the macron and again to delete the
> character.
>
> Have these issues come up before? I don't see any. I will raise tickets for
> the bugs rendering the macron in the latest version of write shortly. I'm
> not sure if anyone wants a ticket for older builds? Obviously stacking
> macrons is by-design when using the combining macron character (see
> https://twitter.com/glitchr_/ for more improbable outcomes of combining
> characters, perhaps your browser will crash).
>
> I haven't yet experimented with entering the ā U+0101 characters into sugar
> (tomorrow!)
>
> Apparently on Windows, the Māori keyboard is set up such that when you hit
> the grave (apparently this is what I have always called the backtick) key
> and then one of the vowels, you get the macron version of the vowel. I
> haven't seen this in action but Māori typists claim it is very efficient.
>
> Gnome on Ubuntu on my laptop binds right-alt-a to ā U+0101 when using the
> Māori keyboard layout. I'm not sure how Maori typists feel about this
> inconsistency with windows.
>
> When you choose the language in sugar, can this change the keyboard layout
> too? If not, what is the recommended way to configure this?
>
> How complex is it to change the localization of the keyboard for the Maori
> language? The xkb files don't look too complicated. Is the grave - vowel =
> macron vowel possible while still preserving the backtick for shell
> scripting? I haven't seen the laptops in question but I'm told they have the
> Australian simplified key caps, so changing the existing alt-gr mappings to
> render macron vowels (ie to mimic the Maori keyboard option on Gnome-Ubuntu)
> instead of the existing mappings won't confuse the key caps.
>
> Obviously touching all the laptops to change how the keyboard works is a
> pain and the change is potentially erased by future updates.
> ___
> Devel mailing list
> Devel@lists.laptop.org
> http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel



-- 
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Sugar Labs
http://www.sugarlabs.org
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Re: Māori Macrons & olpc keyboard

[Chris Leonard]

Tom,

Walter Bender (cc'ed) is very much our keyboard expert.

cjl
Sugar Labs Translation Team Coordinator


On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 6:53 AM, Tom Parker  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I'm looking at how you enter a macron for Māori language users.
>
> It seems that the olpc us international keyboard binds a ̄  COMBINING
> MACRON (unicode U+0304) to algr + hyphan. When typed after the letter a you
> get ā which is similar to but not the same as ā LATIN SMALL LETTER A WITH
> MACRON (unicode U+0101).
>
> Issues I've noted with a small amount of testing:
>
> On older builds, Write does not correctly load files containing the
> combining macron.
> The combining macron is not rendered at the correct height for lower case
> letters. (on older builds this seems to be the case all the time, on newer
> builds, it is rendered correctly after loading a file until you delete a
> following character the on the same line, then it jumps up)
> You can have more than one combining macron, they stack.
> You have to delete twice, once to delete the macron and again to delete
> the character.
>
> Have these issues come up before? I don't see any. I will raise tickets
> for the bugs rendering the macron in the latest version of write shortly.
> I'm not sure if anyone wants a ticket for older builds? Obviously stacking
> macrons is by-design when using the combining macron character (see
> https://twitter.com/glitchr_/ for more improbable outcomes of combining
> characters, perhaps your browser will crash).
>
> I haven't yet experimented with entering the ā U+0101 characters into
> sugar (tomorrow!)
>
> Apparently on Windows, the Māori keyboard is set up such that when you hit
> the grave (apparently this is what I have always called the backtick) key
> and then one of the vowels, you get the macron version of the vowel. I
> haven't seen this in action but Māori typists claim it is very efficient.
>
> Gnome on Ubuntu on my laptop binds right-alt-a to ā U+0101 when using the
> Māori keyboard layout. I'm not sure how Maori typists feel about this
> inconsistency with windows.
>
> When you choose the language in sugar, can this change the keyboard layout
> too? If not, what is the recommended way to configure this?
>
> How complex is it to change the localization of the keyboard for the Maori
> language? The xkb files don't look too complicated. Is the grave - vowel =
> macron vowel possible while still preserving the backtick for shell
> scripting? I haven't seen the laptops in question but I'm told they have
> the Australian simplified key caps, so changing the existing alt-gr
> mappings to render macron vowels (ie to mimic the Maori keyboard option on
> Gnome-Ubuntu) instead of the existing mappings won't confuse the key caps.
>
> Obviously touching all the laptops to change how the keyboard works is a
> pain and the change is potentially erased by future updates.
> __**_
> Devel mailing list
> Devel@lists.laptop.org
> http://lists.laptop.org/**listinfo/devel
>
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Re: [OLPC New Zealand] Māori Macrons & olpc keyboard

[Jerry Vonau]

On 24 June 2013 06:43, Walter Bender  wrote:

> Which build are you running? In the latest Sugar builds, there is a
> keyboard settings control panel section. We could probably backport it
> to your build if it is reasonably recent.
>
>
In OLPC's & Dextrose's versions of sugar the sugar-cp-keyboard rpm doesn't
get installed. Think there is a conflict over the keyboard with
olpc-configure supplied by olpc-utils.

Jerry


> Meanwhile, we may have to make a new X keyboard symbols file for you
> that does the right thing. Not impossible to get upstreamed.
>
> regards.
>
> -walter
>
> On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 6:53 AM, Tom Parker  wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > I'm looking at how you enter a macron for Māori language users.
> >
> > It seems that the olpc us international keyboard binds a ̄  COMBINING
> MACRON
> > (unicode U+0304) to algr + hyphan. When typed after the letter a you get
> ā
> > which is similar to but not the same as ā LATIN SMALL LETTER A WITH
> MACRON
> > (unicode U+0101).
> >
> > Issues I've noted with a small amount of testing:
> >
> > On older builds, Write does not correctly load files containing the
> > combining macron.
> > The combining macron is not rendered at the correct height for lower case
> > letters. (on older builds this seems to be the case all the time, on
> newer
> > builds, it is rendered correctly after loading a file until you delete a
> > following character the on the same line, then it jumps up)
> > You can have more than one combining macron, they stack.
> > You have to delete twice, once to delete the macron and again to delete
> the
> > character.
> >
> > Have these issues come up before? I don't see any. I will raise tickets
> for
> > the bugs rendering the macron in the latest version of write shortly. I'm
> > not sure if anyone wants a ticket for older builds? Obviously stacking
> > macrons is by-design when using the combining macron character (see
> > https://twitter.com/glitchr_/ for more improbable outcomes of combining
> > characters, perhaps your browser will crash).
> >
> > I haven't yet experimented with entering the ā U+0101 characters into
> sugar
> > (tomorrow!)
> >
> > Apparently on Windows, the Māori keyboard is set up such that when you
> hit
> > the grave (apparently this is what I have always called the backtick) key
> > and then one of the vowels, you get the macron version of the vowel. I
> > haven't seen this in action but Māori typists claim it is very efficient.
> >
> > Gnome on Ubuntu on my laptop binds right-alt-a to ā U+0101 when using the
> > Māori keyboard layout. I'm not sure how Maori typists feel about this
> > inconsistency with windows.
> >
> > When you choose the language in sugar, can this change the keyboard
> layout
> > too? If not, what is the recommended way to configure this?
> >
> > How complex is it to change the localization of the keyboard for the
> Maori
> > language? The xkb files don't look too complicated. Is the grave - vowel
> =
> > macron vowel possible while still preserving the backtick for shell
> > scripting? I haven't seen the laptops in question but I'm told they have
> the
> > Australian simplified key caps, so changing the existing alt-gr mappings
> to
> > render macron vowels (ie to mimic the Maori keyboard option on
> Gnome-Ubuntu)
> > instead of the existing mappings won't confuse the key caps.
> >
> > Obviously touching all the laptops to change how the keyboard works is a
> > pain and the change is potentially erased by future updates.
> > ___
> > Devel mailing list
> > Devel@lists.laptop.org
> > http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
>
>
>
> --
> Walter Bender
> Sugar Labs
> http://www.sugarlabs.org
> ___
> OLPC-NZ mailing list
> olpc...@lists.laptop.org
> http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/olpc-nz
>
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Māori Macrons & olpc keyboard

[Tom Parker]

Hi,

I'm looking at how you enter a macron for Māori language users.

It seems that the olpc us international keyboard binds a ̄  COMBINING 
MACRON (unicode U+0304) to algr + hyphan. When typed after the letter a 
you get ā which is similar to but not the same as ā LATIN SMALL LETTER A 
WITH MACRON (unicode U+0101).


Issues I've noted with a small amount of testing:

On older builds, Write does not correctly load files containing the 
combining macron.
The combining macron is not rendered at the correct height for lower 
case letters. (on older builds this seems to be the case all the time, 
on newer builds, it is rendered correctly after loading a file until you 
delete a following character the on the same line, then it jumps up)

You can have more than one combining macron, they stack.
You have to delete twice, once to delete the macron and again to delete 
the character.


Have these issues come up before? I don't see any. I will raise tickets 
for the bugs rendering the macron in the latest version of write 
shortly. I'm not sure if anyone wants a ticket for older builds? 
Obviously stacking macrons is by-design when using the combining macron 
character (see https://twitter.com/glitchr_/ for more improbable 
outcomes of combining characters, perhaps your browser will crash).


I haven't yet experimented with entering the ā U+0101 characters into 
sugar (tomorrow!)


Apparently on Windows, the Māori keyboard is set up such that when you 
hit the grave (apparently this is what I have always called the 
backtick) key and then one of the vowels, you get the macron version of 
the vowel. I haven't seen this in action but Māori typists claim it is 
very efficient.


Gnome on Ubuntu on my laptop binds right-alt-a to ā U+0101 when using 
the Māori keyboard layout. I'm not sure how Maori typists feel about 
this inconsistency with windows.


When you choose the language in sugar, can this change the keyboard 
layout too? If not, what is the recommended way to configure this?


How complex is it to change the localization of the keyboard for the 
Maori language? The xkb files don't look too complicated. Is the grave - 
vowel = macron vowel possible while still preserving the backtick for 
shell scripting? I haven't seen the laptops in question but I'm told 
they have the Australian simplified key caps, so changing the existing 
alt-gr mappings to render macron vowels (ie to mimic the Maori keyboard 
option on Gnome-Ubuntu) instead of the existing mappings won't confuse 
the key caps.


Obviously touching all the laptops to change how the keyboard works is a 
pain and the change is potentially erased by future updates.

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