Re: XO-tablet development?
On 14.8.2013 5:02, Andrew McMillan wrote: Hi, Hi Andrew, thanks for your answers. it is intended that the tablet UI will be able to run on hardware other than the currently available tablet. At present it runs more or less fine across a variety of Android tablets from 7" @800x480 through to 8.9" @1920x1080 (i.e. anything we can lay our hands on :-) So are there images for other tablets available or planned? Can we build ones for other hardware? I'd like to try building one for old Nook Color I have here (currently running CyanogenMod). Is the UI and preloaded apps on the tablet open sourced? Some of the preloaded apps are free software, but most are not. Some elements of the UI source code are based on free software, including changes which have been contributed upstream where relevant, but the core launcher / lock screen code is not currently public and no decision has yet been made regarding releasing that source code. It is my hope and expectation that we will be able to release source code for some or all of this work in due course, but I can provide no timeframe for that. I understand full sources may take a while but even freely available recovery images for current tablet would be good start. Also, BTW, where are the required GPLed source bits (linux kernel, bootloader,...) for people who might want to port something else (android based or not) to the tablet? Is there a SDK for android developers who want to target specific features of XO tablet and/or add app to xo-tablet specific app store e.g. someting similar to https://nookdeveloper.zendesk.com/entries/21943338-nook-developer-start-up-guide ? Frantisek ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: XO-tablet development?
On 2013-08-14, at 05:02, Andrew McMillan wrote: > Andrew McMillan, > VP Software, > One Laptop per Child Association Inc. Hi Andrew, just noticed your new title. Congrats! Short of importing an XO Tablet (I don't live in the US), is there a way to look at your software? The existing documentation on the web is rather sparse. Specifically, I'm interested to learn what apps you have that let kids create something. - Bert - ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: XO-tablet development? [Devel Digest, Vol 90, Issue 8]
I no longer understand your question, sorry. On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 01:52:33AM -0700, Yioryos Asprobounitis wrote: > > > > > By proposing that further development work be native to Android, > > you are locking the fruits of that labor away from: > > > > - Any child using a current XO laptop > > - Any child using any other Linux laptop, such as the millions of children > > in > > Brazil, Venezuela, Argentina, etc... > > - Any child using a Windows laptop > > As far as I understand the question was which way the OLPC laptop/tablet to > proceed in the future. > > The issue then would be is it likely to reach more people with the current > +HTML5 course or with Android? > > Regarding benefits to the existing XOs, ARM-based should have no problem. > XO-1s can hardly benefit from any future development both because of age and > also performance (13.2.0 is already hardly usable on these). So is only the > (how many?) XO-1.5s we are talking about. > Regarding the millions of other x86 machines, I would argue that only the > power savings from ARM machines would be sufficient to pay for any cost to > replacing them ARM machines. Looking at the future and the continuously > increasing power needs for computing, I would say is almost mandatory if you > want any kind of saturation. > > > > > Why would you do that ? By working within the proposed framework (Sugar > > on > > HTML5), > > these children are supported as well as those using a Android tablet. > > > > As James has already pointed out, the performance penalty of using > > HTML5 is minimal --- probably less than that of using Python on most > > systems, > > as much work (independent of OLPC) goes into optimizing its performance. > > > > I do not know if HTML5 can regenerate the Sugar stuck and vital aspects of it > as collaboration and the journal. Can it? > What about some more complex activities like turtleart, or 3rd party apps > like etoys, wordprocessing (without server-side support) etc? > If we are really talking a small number of simple standalone sugar > activities I would hardly see the benefits. > > Regarding ubiquitousness of HTM5, is certainly better but there are at least > a dozen browsers in existence, each available in different versions and each > supporting different levels of HTML so you should either lock it to one > browser (which one?) or keep developing for all of them or use only the least > common denominator features. > In an all HTML system for all browsers and platforms we may also need to > consider the URL security vulnerabilities that HTML come inherently with, > which is in clear contradiction to the so far security scheme and the needs > of the young users. > > > Performance wise the proposed course has another major bottleneck that > Android in contrast to Linux/GNU appears to have an advantage on. Video > drivers. This is probably because Android devices are using proprietary > drivers and the latest OpenGL version but trying to play HTML5 video on XO-4, > is reminiscent of XO-1 with Flash. I would really like to see how it will > perform with HTML5 activities to believe anything about performance. > Finally regarding HTML5 and performance/usability, the smatrphone/tablet > ecosystem has a clear verdict on this I believe: Go native (Android or iOS) > unless is not allowed or is a fairly rudimentary app. > I do not know why should we dismiss the experience of several thousand > developers and hundred of thousands of apps. > > Best > Yioryos > > PS: (Not to crowd the list) > James, > I'm not a party animal ;) but if wasting the work was the issue then we > should stick with Fedora/Gtk/Python. > Besides few months ago neither the tablet nor the unified laptop/tablet > development team was in clear sight. > > Cheers > > > > Cheers, > > wad > > -- James Cameron http://quozl.linux.org.au/ ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: XO-tablet development? [Devel Digest, Vol 90, Issue 8]
> > By proposing that further development work be native to Android, > you are locking the fruits of that labor away from: > > - Any child using a current XO laptop > - Any child using any other Linux laptop, such as the millions of children in > Brazil, Venezuela, Argentina, etc... > - Any child using a Windows laptop As far as I understand the question was which way the OLPC laptop/tablet to proceed in the future. The issue then would be is it likely to reach more people with the current +HTML5 course or with Android? Regarding benefits to the existing XOs, ARM-based should have no problem. XO-1s can hardly benefit from any future development both because of age and also performance (13.2.0 is already hardly usable on these). So is only the (how many?) XO-1.5s we are talking about. Regarding the millions of other x86 machines, I would argue that only the power savings from ARM machines would be sufficient to pay for any cost to replacing them ARM machines. Looking at the future and the continuously increasing power needs for computing, I would say is almost mandatory if you want any kind of saturation. > > Why would you do that ? By working within the proposed framework (Sugar > on > HTML5), > these children are supported as well as those using a Android tablet. > > As James has already pointed out, the performance penalty of using > HTML5 is minimal --- probably less than that of using Python on most systems, > as much work (independent of OLPC) goes into optimizing its performance. > I do not know if HTML5 can regenerate the Sugar stuck and vital aspects of it as collaboration and the journal. Can it? What about some more complex activities like turtleart, or 3rd party apps like etoys, wordprocessing (without server-side support) etc? If we are really talking a small number of simple standalone sugar activities I would hardly see the benefits. Regarding ubiquitousness of HTM5, is certainly better but there are at least a dozen browsers in existence, each available in different versions and each supporting different levels of HTML so you should either lock it to one browser (which one?) or keep developing for all of them or use only the least common denominator features. In an all HTML system for all browsers and platforms we may also need to consider the URL security vulnerabilities that HTML come inherently with, which is in clear contradiction to the so far security scheme and the needs of the young users. Performance wise the proposed course has another major bottleneck that Android in contrast to Linux/GNU appears to have an advantage on. Video drivers. This is probably because Android devices are using proprietary drivers and the latest OpenGL version but trying to play HTML5 video on XO-4, is reminiscent of XO-1 with Flash. I would really like to see how it will perform with HTML5 activities to believe anything about performance. Finally regarding HTML5 and performance/usability, the smatrphone/tablet ecosystem has a clear verdict on this I believe: Go native (Android or iOS) unless is not allowed or is a fairly rudimentary app. I do not know why should we dismiss the experience of several thousand developers and hundred of thousands of apps. Best Yioryos PS: (Not to crowd the list) James, I'm not a party animal ;) but if wasting the work was the issue then we should stick with Fedora/Gtk/Python. Besides few months ago neither the tablet nor the unified laptop/tablet development team was in clear sight. Cheers > Cheers, > wad > ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: XO-tablet development? [Devel Digest, Vol 90, Issue 8]
By proposing that further development work be native to Android, you are locking the fruits of that labor away from: - Any child using a current XO laptop - Any child using any other Linux laptop, such as the millions of children in Brazil, Venezuela, Argentina, etc... - Any child using a Windows laptop Why would you do that ? By working within the proposed framework (Sugar on HTML5), these children are supported as well as those using a Android tablet. As James has already pointed out, the performance penalty of using HTML5 is minimal --- probably less than that of using Python on most systems, as much work (independent of OLPC) goes into optimizing its performance. Cheers, wad ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: XO-tablet development? [Devel Digest, Vol 90, Issue 8]
On Tue, Aug 13, 2013 at 10:10:38PM -0700, Yioryos Asprobounitis wrote: > > On Aug 13, 2013, at 1:09 PM, Yioryos Asprobounitis wrote: > > > Paul wrote: > If not, which way the tablet/laptop development team is heading? > >>> > >>> don't know, sorry. > >> > >> OK, thanks. > >> Hopefully someone that does will care to comment. > > > > It is lack of accurate knowledge of the future, not caring, > > that keeps me from commenting. > > > >> The current laptop and tablet implementations differ significantly and > > would be important to have an indication where the (limited) resources > > should > > be deployed . > > > > How would you devote resources to the tablet ? It is closed source. > > > > There is an attempt within the Sugar (and OLPC) community to move > > the educational environment to HTML, where it can be used on both > > Android (tablet) and Linux (laptop). That is where I would suggest > > deploying resources. > > > Hopefully I'm not stepping on too many toes, but I would think that > this might not be the best course. Not so much stepping on toes but late to the party; this was being talked about on sugar-devel@ months ago, and we would not want to waste the work done so far. > If you are to re-write the activities or even Sugar anyway, why not > go native Android for ARM machines? This is the current offering > from OLPC and they appear to be much more popular and readily > available in developing (and even developed) countries. > It makes a lot more sense developing for the economical, low power > and already available machines. I'm curious as to what you mean by native Android. You mean Java? The big advantage of rewriting from Sugar in Python to Sugar in HTML is that the execution platform widens to cover both Android and personal computer operating systems, with a single source code base. I don't see how a rewrite in Java using the Android Software Development Kit would help with that. I have seen adequate performance of Sugar in HTML activities so far, and in some cases better performance than Sugar in Python activities. > I can understand that the android kernel is not currently supporting > the ARM-XOs but OLPC since the beginning maintained its own kernel > and still does, so it should be feasible. Your assumption about feasibility is easily challenged; we do not have as many kernel maintainers now as we had before, so our history is not a reliable indicator. > I can also understand that the Android stuck is not GPL3, but > Apache2 is still "open" and between a closed system as the XOtablet > is and a free one as the laptop, may be a viable > compromise. Besides, you can still release your code under GPL3. In > essence is the same as releasing GPL3 HTML5 activities to be run on > Apache2 or even fully proprietary OSs. > Yes, the entire offering will not be GPL3 but software-politics > aside, will allow you to do as much as you currently can on the > laptop and way much more than what you can on the tablet. I don't see how licensing is relevant to the technical problem at hand, but the Sugar in HTML activities seen so far have been open source. > BTW given that currently the laptops are distributed to the end > users mostly locked, licensing is not even relevant for them. No, laptops are much less likely to be distributed secured now. It depends on the deployment what they choose, and they have to be able to sustain the necessary technical effort before they choose secured laptops. No, licensing is still relevant to end users, regardless of whether the laptops are secured. But OLPCs main customers are the deployment teams, rather than the end users. > It is also likely that OLPC will be criticized for releasing > something under a mixed Apache2/GPL3 license but given that the > XOtablet is already there. there is nothing (more) to wary about > ;) Yes, I see you are criticising. ;-) -- James Cameron http://quozl.linux.org.au/ ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: XO-tablet development? [Devel Digest, Vol 90, Issue 8]
> On Aug 13, 2013, at 1:09 PM, Yioryos Asprobounitis wrote: > Paul wrote: If not, which way the tablet/laptop development team is heading? >>> >>> don't know, sorry. >> >> OK, thanks. >> Hopefully someone that does will care to comment. > > It is lack of accurate knowledge of the future, not caring, > that keeps me from commenting. > >> The current laptop and tablet implementations differ significantly and > would be important to have an indication where the (limited) resources > should > be deployed . > > How would you devote resources to the tablet ? It is closed source. > > There is an attempt within the Sugar (and OLPC) community to move > the educational environment to HTML, where it can be used on both > Android (tablet) and Linux (laptop). That is where I would suggest > deploying resources. Hopefully I'm not stepping on too many toes, but I would think that this might not be the best course. If you are to re-write the activities or even Sugar anyway, why not go native Android for ARM machines? This is the current offering from OLPC and they appear to be much more popular and readily available in developing (and even developed) countries. It makes a lot more sense developing for the economical, low power and already available machines. I can understand that the android kernel is not currently supporting the ARM-XOs but OLPC since the beginning maintained its own kernel and still does, so it should be feasible. I can also understand that the Android stuck is not GPL3, but Apache2 is still "open" and between a closed system as the XOtablet is and a free one as the laptop, may be a viable compromise. Besides, you can still release your code under GPL3. In essence is the same as releasing GPL3 HTML5 activities to be run on Apache2 or even fully proprietary OSs. Yes, the entire offering will not be GPL3 but software-politics aside, will allow you to do as much as you currently can on the laptop and way much more than what you can on the tablet. BTW given that currently the laptops are distributed to the end users mostly locked, licensing is not even relevant for them. It is also likely that OLPC will be criticized for releasing something under a mixed Apache2/GPL3 license but given that the XOtablet is already there. there is nothing (more) to wary about ;) Good luck Best Yioryos > > Cheers, > wad > ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: XO-tablet development?
On Mon, 2013-08-12 at 15:35 +0200, Frantisek Dufka wrote: > Hello, > > sorry if this was already discussed but where development discussion > about new XO-tablet is taking place? Where is the documentation/wiki? > > I understand it is android based (i.e. very different from xo laptops) > but I am still missing discussion about the hardware itself and also the > software (android UI modification, preloaded applications). Hi, I'm not sure what there is to discuss regarding the hardware, except that it is intended that the tablet UI will be able to run on hardware other than the currently available tablet. At present it runs more or less fine across a variety of Android tablets from 7" @800x480 through to 8.9" @1920x1080 (i.e. anything we can lay our hands on :-) > Is some XO laptop software shared between laptop and tablet (sugar, > activities,...)? Not at present, but it is planned that Sugar Web activities will be able to operate both within Sugar-GTK and within Android. I have been meeting with Manuel Quiñones over the last few days to try to better understand this work and how OLPC can best support it going forward. > Is the UI and preloaded apps on the tablet open sourced? Some of the preloaded apps are free software, but most are not. Some elements of the UI source code are based on free software, including changes which have been contributed upstream where relevant, but the core launcher / lock screen code is not currently public and no decision has yet been made regarding releasing that source code. It is my hope and expectation that we will be able to release source code for some or all of this work in due course, but I can provide no timeframe for that. The work on Sugar Web will naturally be within the context of the existing free software community. > Is this developed by olpc people or outsourced to completely different > people/company? The development work was done primarily at Morphoss under the direction of OLPC. Regards, Andrew McMillan. -- Andrew McMillan, VP Software, One Laptop per Child Association Inc. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: XO-tablet development? [Devel Digest, Vol 90, Issue 8]
On 13 Aug 2013, at 19:41, John Watlington wrote: > > On Aug 13, 2013, at 1:09 PM, Yioryos Asprobounitis wrote: > Paul wrote: If not, which way the tablet/laptop development team is heading? >>> >>> don't know, sorry. >> >> OK, thanks. >> Hopefully someone that does will care to comment. > > It is lack of accurate knowledge of the future, not caring, > that keeps me from commenting. > >> The current laptop and tablet implementations differ significantly and >> would be important to have an indication where the (limited) resources >> should be deployed . > > How would you devote resources to the tablet ? It is closed source. > > There is an attempt within the Sugar (and OLPC) community to move > the educational environment to HTML, where it can be used on both > Android (tablet) and Linux (laptop). That is where I would suggest > deploying resources. Here's a wiki page Lionel Laskè has been keeping ticking over regarding HTML based Sugar efforts, most of the discussions so far have been over on the sugar-de...@lists.sugarlabs.org: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/HTML5_activities Manuq has been working on some early Sugar-web based activity offerings (to help debug and test the new web api's, intended for the as yet unreleased Sugar 0.100): Clock Web: http://activities.sugarlabs.org/sugar/addon/4691/ Get Things Done: http://activities.sugarlabs.org/sugar/addon/4692/ Memorize Web: http://activities.sugarlabs.org/sugar/addon/4693/ Stopwatch Web: http://activities.sugarlabs.org/sugar/addon/4694/ Paint Web: http://activities.sugarlabs.org/sugar/addon/4695/ Gears: http://activities.sugarlabs.org/es-ES/sugar/addon/4696/ I'm not aware of much progress yet providing a path towards lower level Sugar features such as Neighbourhood view, Activity collaboration, the Journal, entry sharing, the Frame, for the Android based XO-Tablet offering. Regards, --Gary > Cheers, > wad > > > ___ > Devel mailing list > Devel@lists.laptop.org > http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: XO-tablet development? [Devel Digest, Vol 90, Issue 8]
Oops pocket msg, sorry. :-( Sent from my currently functioning gadget From: Kevin Gordon GmailSent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 15:40To: John Watlington; Yioryos AsprobounitisCc: devel@lists.laptop.orgSubject: Re: XO-tablet development? [Devel Digest, Vol 90, Issue 8]Znhjkl Sent from my currently functioning gadget From: John WatlingtonSent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 14:41To: Yioryos AsprobounitisCc: devel@lists.laptop.orgSubject: Re: XO-tablet development? [Devel Digest, Vol 90, Issue 8]On Aug 13, 2013, at 1:09 PM, Yioryos Asprobounitis wrote:>>> Paul wrote:>>> If not, which way the tablet/laptop development team is heading?>> >> don't know, sorry. > > OK, thanks. > Hopefully someone that does will care to comment.It is lack of accurate knowledge of the future, not caring,that keeps me from commenting.> The current laptop and tablet implementations differ significantly and would be important to have an indication where the (limited) resources should be deployed .How would you devote resources to the tablet ? It is closed source.There is an attempt within the Sugar (and OLPC) community to movethe educational environment to HTML, where it can be used on bothAndroid (tablet) and Linux (laptop). That is where I would suggestdeploying resources.Cheers,wad___Devel mailing listDevel@lists.laptop.orghttp://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: XO-tablet development? [Devel Digest, Vol 90, Issue 8]
Znhjkl Sent from my currently functioning gadget From: John WatlingtonSent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 14:41To: Yioryos AsprobounitisCc: devel@lists.laptop.orgSubject: Re: XO-tablet development? [Devel Digest, Vol 90, Issue 8]On Aug 13, 2013, at 1:09 PM, Yioryos Asprobounitis wrote:>>> Paul wrote:>>> If not, which way the tablet/laptop development team is heading?>> >> don't know, sorry. > > OK, thanks. > Hopefully someone that does will care to comment.It is lack of accurate knowledge of the future, not caring,that keeps me from commenting.> The current laptop and tablet implementations differ significantly and would be important to have an indication where the (limited) resources should be deployed .How would you devote resources to the tablet ? It is closed source.There is an attempt within the Sugar (and OLPC) community to movethe educational environment to HTML, where it can be used on bothAndroid (tablet) and Linux (laptop). That is where I would suggestdeploying resources.Cheers,wad___Devel mailing listDevel@lists.laptop.orghttp://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: XO-tablet development? [Devel Digest, Vol 90, Issue 8]
On Aug 13, 2013, at 1:09 PM, Yioryos Asprobounitis wrote: >>> Paul wrote: >>> If not, which way the tablet/laptop development team is heading? >> >> don't know, sorry. > > OK, thanks. > Hopefully someone that does will care to comment. It is lack of accurate knowledge of the future, not caring, that keeps me from commenting. > The current laptop and tablet implementations differ significantly and > would be important to have an indication where the (limited) resources > should be deployed . How would you devote resources to the tablet ? It is closed source. There is an attempt within the Sugar (and OLPC) community to move the educational environment to HTML, where it can be used on both Android (tablet) and Linux (laptop). That is where I would suggest deploying resources. Cheers, wad ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: XO-tablet development? [Devel Digest, Vol 90, Issue 8]
>> Paul wrote: >> > UI software and integration was by an OLPC-funded team, which >> > until recently was completely separate from the laptop development >> > team. >> >> ie, now is not? > > yes, now not separate. > >> If not, which way the tablet/laptop development team is heading? > > don't know, sorry. > OK, thanks. Hopefully someone that does will care to comment. The current laptop and tablet implementations differ significantly and would be important to have an indication where the (limited) resources should be deployed . > -- > James Cameron > http://quozl.linux.org.au/ > ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: XO-tablet development? [Devel Digest, Vol 90, Issue 7]
On Mon, Aug 12, 2013 at 10:14:23AM -0700, Yioryos Asprobounitis wrote: > Paul wrote: > > UI software and integration was by an OLPC-funded team, which > > until recently was completely separate from the laptop development > > team. > > ie, now is not? yes, now not separate. > If not, which way the tablet/laptop development team is heading? don't know, sorry. -- James Cameron http://quozl.linux.org.au/ ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: XO-tablet development? [Devel Digest, Vol 90, Issue 7]
> UI software and integration > was by an OLPC-funded team, which until recently was completely > separate from the laptop development team. ie, now is not? If not, which way the tablet/laptop development team is heading? > > paul > =- > paul fox, p...@laptop.org > > ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: XO-tablet development?
frantisek wrote: > Hello, > > sorry if this was already discussed but where development discussion > about new XO-tablet is taking place? Where is the documentation/wiki? there are not yet any public development or documentation channels, that i know of. > > I understand it is android based (i.e. very different from xo laptops) > but I am still missing discussion about the hardware itself and also the > software (android UI modification, preloaded applications). OLPC was not involved in the development of the tablet hardware. > > Is some XO laptop software shared between laptop and tablet (sugar, > activities,...)? i don't believe so, currently. that could change. > Is the UI and preloaded apps on the tablet open sourced? no, not generally. parts of android are open source, of course, and some of the included apps may also be. but much is closed source, including, i believe, the UI. > Is this developed by olpc people or outsourced to completely different > people/company? hardware was done by an external vendor. UI software and integration was by an OLPC-funded team, which until recently was completely separate from the laptop development team. paul =- paul fox, p...@laptop.org ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
XO-tablet development?
Hello, sorry if this was already discussed but where development discussion about new XO-tablet is taking place? Where is the documentation/wiki? I understand it is android based (i.e. very different from xo laptops) but I am still missing discussion about the hardware itself and also the software (android UI modification, preloaded applications). Is some XO laptop software shared between laptop and tablet (sugar, activities,...)? Is the UI and preloaded apps on the tablet open sourced? Is this developed by olpc people or outsourced to completely different people/company? Thanks, Frantisek ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
