Re: XO-tablet development? [Devel Digest, Vol 90, Issue 8]
By proposing that further development work be native to Android, you are locking the fruits of that labor away from: - Any child using a current XO laptop - Any child using any other Linux laptop, such as the millions of children in Brazil, Venezuela, Argentina, etc... - Any child using a Windows laptop As far as I understand the question was which way the OLPC laptop/tablet to proceed in the future. The issue then would be is it likely to reach more people with the current +HTML5 course or with Android? Regarding benefits to the existing XOs, ARM-based should have no problem. XO-1s can hardly benefit from any future development both because of age and also performance (13.2.0 is already hardly usable on these). So is only the (how many?) XO-1.5s we are talking about. Regarding the millions of other x86 machines, I would argue that only the power savings from ARM machines would be sufficient to pay for any cost to replacing them ARM machines. Looking at the future and the continuously increasing power needs for computing, I would say is almost mandatory if you want any kind of saturation. Why would you do that ? By working within the proposed framework (Sugar on HTML5), these children are supported as well as those using a Android tablet. As James has already pointed out, the performance penalty of using HTML5 is minimal --- probably less than that of using Python on most systems, as much work (independent of OLPC) goes into optimizing its performance. I do not know if HTML5 can regenerate the Sugar stuck and vital aspects of it as collaboration and the journal. Can it? What about some more complex activities like turtleart, or 3rd party apps like etoys, wordprocessing (without server-side support) etc? If we are really talking a small number of simple standalone sugar activities I would hardly see the benefits. Regarding ubiquitousness of HTM5, is certainly better but there are at least a dozen browsers in existence, each available in different versions and each supporting different levels of HTML so you should either lock it to one browser (which one?) or keep developing for all of them or use only the least common denominator features. In an all HTML system for all browsers and platforms we may also need to consider the URL security vulnerabilities that HTML come inherently with, which is in clear contradiction to the so far security scheme and the needs of the young users. Performance wise the proposed course has another major bottleneck that Android in contrast to Linux/GNU appears to have an advantage on. Video drivers. This is probably because Android devices are using proprietary drivers and the latest OpenGL version but trying to play HTML5 video on XO-4, is reminiscent of XO-1 with Flash. I would really like to see how it will perform with HTML5 activities to believe anything about performance. Finally regarding HTML5 and performance/usability, the smatrphone/tablet ecosystem has a clear verdict on this I believe: Go native (Android or iOS) unless is not allowed or is a fairly rudimentary app. I do not know why should we dismiss the experience of several thousand developers and hundred of thousands of apps. Best Yioryos PS: (Not to crowd the list) James, I'm not a party animal ;) but if wasting the work was the issue then we should stick with Fedora/Gtk/Python. Besides few months ago neither the tablet nor the unified laptop/tablet development team was in clear sight. Cheers Cheers, wad ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: XO-tablet development? [Devel Digest, Vol 90, Issue 8]
I no longer understand your question, sorry. On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 01:52:33AM -0700, Yioryos Asprobounitis wrote: By proposing that further development work be native to Android, you are locking the fruits of that labor away from: - Any child using a current XO laptop - Any child using any other Linux laptop, such as the millions of children in Brazil, Venezuela, Argentina, etc... - Any child using a Windows laptop As far as I understand the question was which way the OLPC laptop/tablet to proceed in the future. The issue then would be is it likely to reach more people with the current +HTML5 course or with Android? Regarding benefits to the existing XOs, ARM-based should have no problem. XO-1s can hardly benefit from any future development both because of age and also performance (13.2.0 is already hardly usable on these). So is only the (how many?) XO-1.5s we are talking about. Regarding the millions of other x86 machines, I would argue that only the power savings from ARM machines would be sufficient to pay for any cost to replacing them ARM machines. Looking at the future and the continuously increasing power needs for computing, I would say is almost mandatory if you want any kind of saturation. Why would you do that ? By working within the proposed framework (Sugar on HTML5), these children are supported as well as those using a Android tablet. As James has already pointed out, the performance penalty of using HTML5 is minimal --- probably less than that of using Python on most systems, as much work (independent of OLPC) goes into optimizing its performance. I do not know if HTML5 can regenerate the Sugar stuck and vital aspects of it as collaboration and the journal. Can it? What about some more complex activities like turtleart, or 3rd party apps like etoys, wordprocessing (without server-side support) etc? If we are really talking a small number of simple standalone sugar activities I would hardly see the benefits. Regarding ubiquitousness of HTM5, is certainly better but there are at least a dozen browsers in existence, each available in different versions and each supporting different levels of HTML so you should either lock it to one browser (which one?) or keep developing for all of them or use only the least common denominator features. In an all HTML system for all browsers and platforms we may also need to consider the URL security vulnerabilities that HTML come inherently with, which is in clear contradiction to the so far security scheme and the needs of the young users. Performance wise the proposed course has another major bottleneck that Android in contrast to Linux/GNU appears to have an advantage on. Video drivers. This is probably because Android devices are using proprietary drivers and the latest OpenGL version but trying to play HTML5 video on XO-4, is reminiscent of XO-1 with Flash. I would really like to see how it will perform with HTML5 activities to believe anything about performance. Finally regarding HTML5 and performance/usability, the smatrphone/tablet ecosystem has a clear verdict on this I believe: Go native (Android or iOS) unless is not allowed or is a fairly rudimentary app. I do not know why should we dismiss the experience of several thousand developers and hundred of thousands of apps. Best Yioryos PS: (Not to crowd the list) James, I'm not a party animal ;) but if wasting the work was the issue then we should stick with Fedora/Gtk/Python. Besides few months ago neither the tablet nor the unified laptop/tablet development team was in clear sight. Cheers Cheers, wad -- James Cameron http://quozl.linux.org.au/ ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: XO-tablet development? [Devel Digest, Vol 90, Issue 8]
Paul wrote: UI software and integration was by an OLPC-funded team, which until recently was completely separate from the laptop development team. ie, now is not? yes, now not separate. If not, which way the tablet/laptop development team is heading? don't know, sorry. OK, thanks. Hopefully someone that does will care to comment. The current laptop and tablet implementations differ significantly and would be important to have an indication where the (limited) resources should be deployed . -- James Cameron http://quozl.linux.org.au/ ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: XO-tablet development? [Devel Digest, Vol 90, Issue 8]
On Aug 13, 2013, at 1:09 PM, Yioryos Asprobounitis wrote: Paul wrote: If not, which way the tablet/laptop development team is heading? don't know, sorry. OK, thanks. Hopefully someone that does will care to comment. It is lack of accurate knowledge of the future, not caring, that keeps me from commenting. The current laptop and tablet implementations differ significantly and would be important to have an indication where the (limited) resources should be deployed . How would you devote resources to the tablet ? It is closed source. There is an attempt within the Sugar (and OLPC) community to move the educational environment to HTML, where it can be used on both Android (tablet) and Linux (laptop). That is where I would suggest deploying resources. Cheers, wad ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: XO-tablet development? [Devel Digest, Vol 90, Issue 8]
Znhjkl Sent from my currently functioning gadget From: John WatlingtonSent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 14:41To: Yioryos AsprobounitisCc: devel@lists.laptop.orgSubject: Re: XO-tablet development? [Devel Digest, Vol 90, Issue 8]On Aug 13, 2013, at 1:09 PM, Yioryos Asprobounitis wrote: Paul wrote: If not, which way the tablet/laptop development team is heading? don't know, sorry. OK, thanks. Hopefully someone that does will care to comment.It is lack of accurate knowledge of the future, not caring,that keeps me from commenting. The current laptop and tablet implementations differ significantly and would be important to have an indication where the (limited) resources should be deployed .How would you devote resources to the tablet ? It is closed source.There is an attempt within the Sugar (and OLPC) community to movethe educational environment to HTML, where it can be used on bothAndroid (tablet) and Linux (laptop). That is where I would suggestdeploying resources.Cheers,wad___Devel mailing listDevel@lists.laptop.orghttp://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: XO-tablet development? [Devel Digest, Vol 90, Issue 8]
Oops pocket msg, sorry. :-( Sent from my currently functioning gadget From: Kevin Gordon GmailSent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 15:40To: John Watlington; Yioryos AsprobounitisCc: devel@lists.laptop.orgSubject: Re: XO-tablet development? [Devel Digest, Vol 90, Issue 8]Znhjkl Sent from my currently functioning gadget From: John WatlingtonSent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 14:41To: Yioryos AsprobounitisCc: devel@lists.laptop.orgSubject: Re: XO-tablet development? [Devel Digest, Vol 90, Issue 8]On Aug 13, 2013, at 1:09 PM, Yioryos Asprobounitis wrote: Paul wrote: If not, which way the tablet/laptop development team is heading? don't know, sorry. OK, thanks. Hopefully someone that does will care to comment.It is lack of accurate knowledge of the future, not caring,that keeps me from commenting. The current laptop and tablet implementations differ significantly and would be important to have an indication where the (limited) resources should be deployed .How would you devote resources to the tablet ? It is closed source.There is an attempt within the Sugar (and OLPC) community to movethe educational environment to HTML, where it can be used on bothAndroid (tablet) and Linux (laptop). That is where I would suggestdeploying resources.Cheers,wad___Devel mailing listDevel@lists.laptop.orghttp://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: XO-tablet development? [Devel Digest, Vol 90, Issue 8]
On 13 Aug 2013, at 19:41, John Watlington w...@laptop.org wrote: On Aug 13, 2013, at 1:09 PM, Yioryos Asprobounitis wrote: Paul wrote: If not, which way the tablet/laptop development team is heading? don't know, sorry. OK, thanks. Hopefully someone that does will care to comment. It is lack of accurate knowledge of the future, not caring, that keeps me from commenting. The current laptop and tablet implementations differ significantly and would be important to have an indication where the (limited) resources should be deployed . How would you devote resources to the tablet ? It is closed source. There is an attempt within the Sugar (and OLPC) community to move the educational environment to HTML, where it can be used on both Android (tablet) and Linux (laptop). That is where I would suggest deploying resources. Here's a wiki page Lionel Laskè has been keeping ticking over regarding HTML based Sugar efforts, most of the discussions so far have been over on the sugar-de...@lists.sugarlabs.org: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/HTML5_activities Manuq has been working on some early Sugar-web based activity offerings (to help debug and test the new web api's, intended for the as yet unreleased Sugar 0.100): Clock Web: http://activities.sugarlabs.org/sugar/addon/4691/ Get Things Done: http://activities.sugarlabs.org/sugar/addon/4692/ Memorize Web: http://activities.sugarlabs.org/sugar/addon/4693/ Stopwatch Web: http://activities.sugarlabs.org/sugar/addon/4694/ Paint Web: http://activities.sugarlabs.org/sugar/addon/4695/ Gears: http://activities.sugarlabs.org/es-ES/sugar/addon/4696/ I'm not aware of much progress yet providing a path towards lower level Sugar features such as Neighbourhood view, Activity collaboration, the Journal, entry sharing, the Frame, for the Android based XO-Tablet offering. Regards, --Gary Cheers, wad ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: XO-tablet development? [Devel Digest, Vol 90, Issue 8]
On Aug 13, 2013, at 1:09 PM, Yioryos Asprobounitis wrote: Paul wrote: If not, which way the tablet/laptop development team is heading? don't know, sorry. OK, thanks. Hopefully someone that does will care to comment. It is lack of accurate knowledge of the future, not caring, that keeps me from commenting. The current laptop and tablet implementations differ significantly and would be important to have an indication where the (limited) resources should be deployed . How would you devote resources to the tablet ? It is closed source. There is an attempt within the Sugar (and OLPC) community to move the educational environment to HTML, where it can be used on both Android (tablet) and Linux (laptop). That is where I would suggest deploying resources. Hopefully I'm not stepping on too many toes, but I would think that this might not be the best course. If you are to re-write the activities or even Sugar anyway, why not go native Android for ARM machines? This is the current offering from OLPC and they appear to be much more popular and readily available in developing (and even developed) countries. It makes a lot more sense developing for the economical, low power and already available machines. I can understand that the android kernel is not currently supporting the ARM-XOs but OLPC since the beginning maintained its own kernel and still does, so it should be feasible. I can also understand that the Android stuck is not GPL3, but Apache2 is still open and between a closed system as the XOtablet is and a free one as the laptop, may be a viable compromise. Besides, you can still release your code under GPL3. In essence is the same as releasing GPL3 HTML5 activities to be run on Apache2 or even fully proprietary OSs. Yes, the entire offering will not be GPL3 but software-politics aside, will allow you to do as much as you currently can on the laptop and way much more than what you can on the tablet. BTW given that currently the laptops are distributed to the end users mostly locked, licensing is not even relevant for them. It is also likely that OLPC will be criticized for releasing something under a mixed Apache2/GPL3 license but given that the XOtablet is already there. there is nothing (more) to wary about ;) Good luck Best Yioryos Cheers, wad ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: XO-tablet development? [Devel Digest, Vol 90, Issue 8]
On Tue, Aug 13, 2013 at 10:10:38PM -0700, Yioryos Asprobounitis wrote: On Aug 13, 2013, at 1:09 PM, Yioryos Asprobounitis wrote: Paul wrote: If not, which way the tablet/laptop development team is heading? don't know, sorry. OK, thanks. Hopefully someone that does will care to comment. It is lack of accurate knowledge of the future, not caring, that keeps me from commenting. The current laptop and tablet implementations differ significantly and would be important to have an indication where the (limited) resources should be deployed . How would you devote resources to the tablet ? It is closed source. There is an attempt within the Sugar (and OLPC) community to move the educational environment to HTML, where it can be used on both Android (tablet) and Linux (laptop). That is where I would suggest deploying resources. Hopefully I'm not stepping on too many toes, but I would think that this might not be the best course. Not so much stepping on toes but late to the party; this was being talked about on sugar-devel@ months ago, and we would not want to waste the work done so far. If you are to re-write the activities or even Sugar anyway, why not go native Android for ARM machines? This is the current offering from OLPC and they appear to be much more popular and readily available in developing (and even developed) countries. It makes a lot more sense developing for the economical, low power and already available machines. I'm curious as to what you mean by native Android. You mean Java? The big advantage of rewriting from Sugar in Python to Sugar in HTML is that the execution platform widens to cover both Android and personal computer operating systems, with a single source code base. I don't see how a rewrite in Java using the Android Software Development Kit would help with that. I have seen adequate performance of Sugar in HTML activities so far, and in some cases better performance than Sugar in Python activities. I can understand that the android kernel is not currently supporting the ARM-XOs but OLPC since the beginning maintained its own kernel and still does, so it should be feasible. Your assumption about feasibility is easily challenged; we do not have as many kernel maintainers now as we had before, so our history is not a reliable indicator. I can also understand that the Android stuck is not GPL3, but Apache2 is still open and between a closed system as the XOtablet is and a free one as the laptop, may be a viable compromise. Besides, you can still release your code under GPL3. In essence is the same as releasing GPL3 HTML5 activities to be run on Apache2 or even fully proprietary OSs. Yes, the entire offering will not be GPL3 but software-politics aside, will allow you to do as much as you currently can on the laptop and way much more than what you can on the tablet. I don't see how licensing is relevant to the technical problem at hand, but the Sugar in HTML activities seen so far have been open source. BTW given that currently the laptops are distributed to the end users mostly locked, licensing is not even relevant for them. No, laptops are much less likely to be distributed secured now. It depends on the deployment what they choose, and they have to be able to sustain the necessary technical effort before they choose secured laptops. No, licensing is still relevant to end users, regardless of whether the laptops are secured. But OLPCs main customers are the deployment teams, rather than the end users. It is also likely that OLPC will be criticized for releasing something under a mixed Apache2/GPL3 license but given that the XOtablet is already there. there is nothing (more) to wary about ;) Yes, I see you are criticising. ;-) -- James Cameron http://quozl.linux.org.au/ ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: XO-tablet development? [Devel Digest, Vol 90, Issue 8]
By proposing that further development work be native to Android, you are locking the fruits of that labor away from: - Any child using a current XO laptop - Any child using any other Linux laptop, such as the millions of children in Brazil, Venezuela, Argentina, etc... - Any child using a Windows laptop Why would you do that ? By working within the proposed framework (Sugar on HTML5), these children are supported as well as those using a Android tablet. As James has already pointed out, the performance penalty of using HTML5 is minimal --- probably less than that of using Python on most systems, as much work (independent of OLPC) goes into optimizing its performance. Cheers, wad ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
