Re: notes on Journal feedback (was Re: Bundle activity)
On Tue, Oct 07, 2008 at 12:59:23PM -0700, John Gilmore wrote: > > > (This knowledge > > > is becoming quite common in at least one of our deployments. Just > > > yesterday a kid from Uruguay came into #olpc-ayuda to ask exactly how to > > > do this. And this morning a user spontaneously wrote rm > > > .sugar/default/confis into the channel...) > > This is lovely! Despite the rigorous insistence that kids be unable > to see the hierarchical filesystem that underlies all the code and > data in their laptops, they are figuring it out anyway. > Please excuse my poor writing and note that these were two separate incidents. The first student had left long before the second arrived. The second incident seems like someone trying to write in a terminal but accidentally typing the command into XoIrc. Erik ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: notes on Journal feedback (was Re: Bundle activity)
> Don't know where you have read that. The Journal is intended to give a > better way to deal with the results of the interaction with the > machine than a folders-based system inspired on office workers. Please quit making the kids the guinea-pig for somebody's untested pet theories about how to improve on filesystems. We had flat filesystems on DOS 2.0 floppies and on original Macintoshes. They sucked. At least files had *names* there; the journal makes that optional! > > Then, > > when it's not working they drop into the command line and delete its > > configuration and data caches manually using rm -rf ! My experience may be indicative. Whenever I try a new release, I always do a full reflash. There has never, ever been anything in my Journal that I wanted to save. This would not be true if I'd been able to use my laptop like a real computer. My real computers get backed-up and lovingly upgraded. If only the kids had real computers they could turn to! > > (This knowledge > > is becoming quite common in at least one of our deployments. Just > > yesterday a kid from Uruguay came into #olpc-ayuda to ask exactly how to > > do this. And this morning a user spontaneously wrote rm > > .sugar/default/confis into the channel...) This is lovely! Despite the rigorous insistence that kids be unable to see the hierarchical filesystem that underlies all the code and data in their laptops, they are figuring it out anyway. How long before we admit that it's OK for them to know about it? How long before we admit that it's OK for the interface to SHOW it? How long before we require them to learn it, e.g. so they can navigate our source code, or their own saved data? How long before we stop reinventing the wheel (and the file browser, and the file-open-dialogue, and the battery icon, and the menu of programs, and the task bar, and the network configurator, and the window manager), and focus our efforts on putting that already-written stuff into a small, low power, high performance machine? No, let's teach them that your data is saved in files with obscure garbage names, all mixed in with stuff you could care less about. John ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: notes on Journal feedback (was Re: Bundle activity)
On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 3:22 PM, Erik Garrison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Tue, Oct 07, 2008 at 12:14:13PM +0200, Tomeu Vizoso wrote: >> On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 3:47 PM, Erik Garrison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> > On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 09:17:16AM +0200, Tomeu Vizoso wrote: >> >> On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 10:40 PM, Erik Garrison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >> > When I was in Uruguay more teachers asked me about issues with the >> >> > Journal than anything else. I keep poking on this issue to remind >> >> > people that it's not going away in the field. >> >> >> >> Could you please tell us more about the issues reported? >> > >> > 1) Data loss. Teachers I met mentioned seeing bugs where the students >> > Journal was wiped clean, or where things went missing. Without live >> > examples this is pretty hard to diagnose. Perhaps an effect of running >> > on such an old build. >> >> Yes, this improved in 0.82 and is a big goal for 0.84: >> >> http://sugarlabs.org/go/DevelopmentTeam/0.84/Reliability >> http://sugarlabs.org/go/DevelopmentTeam/DatastoreRewrite#Reliability >> > > I think that (4) is actually mixed with (1) as well. The problem is > that the activity API is auto-saving work sessions. If left unchecked > by the user they'll end up with a Journal full of lots of entries they > didn't intentionally create. The system doesn't require the > intentionality of its user to save, yet the result of saving and > auto-saving are identical. It's hard to find the important things among > the pile of unimportant things which result from everyday use of the > interface. From a user's perspective, or the perspective of their > teacher, this is equivalent to data loss. Ok, so 1) was really about journal full issues? >> > 2) Journal startup failures borking the whole system / Journal never >> > completing startup but Sugar starting. Possibly because of NAND-full. >> > If so we have fixed it. Interestingly, I heard about kids resolving >> > this issue manually from the command-line (although their teacher didn't >> > know exactly what they did! I'm guessing they removed their data >> > directory.). >> >> Yes, IMO, this is the same issue as 1) >> > > Additionally, users could be deleting their Journals from the command > line simply because they can't find anything they need and they don't > care about saving their data. > > We have a data manager which doesn't acknowledge files, purportedly for "doesn't aknowledge files"? Can you explain what do you mean by this? > the benefit of its very young, and technically uninitiated users. Don't know where you have read that. The Journal is intended to give a better way to deal with the results of the interaction with the machine than a folders-based system inspired on office workers. > Then, > when it's not working they drop into the command line and delete its > configuration and data caches manually using rm -rf ! (This knowledge > is becoming quite common in at least one of our deployments. Just > yesterday a kid from Uruguay came into #olpc-ayuda to ask exactly how to > do this. And this morning a user spontaneously wrote rm > .sugar/default/confis into the channel...) Can you explain what this has to do with what you originally wrote in 2)? >> > 3) "How do I share files to/from an XO?" "I just did this work but now >> > where is the resultant file?" Interface with the outside world. >> >> How could we better define the "outside world"? Do you think we could >> get a list of the main use cases when taking data out of XO systems? >> > > "Anything that can use a file" would be a good description of all the > main use cases. How do we get lumps of bits from here to there without > acknowledging the utility of the file abstraction? I think it's too abstract to be useful. We need actual use cases that make sense to our users. >> > 4) General usability concerns; questions about why the design was >> > chosen. Difficulty finding things in the produced action history. >> >> How could we get to know which are those concerns? Perhaps we could >> try to get the people who can give this feedback on the olpc-sur >> mailing list, have some discussion there in spanish and then summarize >> in the global lists and wiki? And if you could by a chance remember >> any concrete usability concern, please post it here. >> >> I think we all agree that the journal sucks in a lot of senses. We are >> trying to improve it by implementing the biggest missing pieces and >> patching the biggest wholes, but if it was at all possible to choose >> the priorities based on real feedback from the field, I'm pretty sure >> the result will be much better. Do you think we can get feedback on a >> form we can actually use? > > I think we should ask around on olpc-sur! I also recommend coming to > #olpc-ayuda and talking with the kids who are trying to 'fix' issues > with their Journal via the command line. You have been in Uruguay and have talked to teachers, also have shown a
Re: notes on Journal feedback (was Re: Bundle activity)
On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 12:06 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On Oct 7, 2008, at 7:20 AM, Gary Oberbrunner wrote: > >> Tomeu Vizoso wrote: >>> On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 3:47 PM, Erik Garrison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>> wrote: On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 09:17:16AM +0200, Tomeu Vizoso wrote: > On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 10:40 PM, Erik Garrison > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> ... 3) "How do I share files to/from an XO?" "I just did this work but now where is the resultant file?" Interface with the outside world. >>> >>> How could we better define the "outside world"? Do you think we could >>> get a list of the main use cases when taking data out of XO systems? >> >> My $0.02 (aka. "wild guess") is that the following three use cases >> cover >> 90+% of all of them: >> >> 1. files to and from a FAT-formatted USB stick >> 2. files to and from a wifi SMB share >> 3. email attachments in and out > > Another use case I have seen is: > 4. files to and from a host system using a ssh connection and scp. > (could this be put in an activity wrapper?) > Also some G1G1 users, use scripts to extract data from the data store. The re-envisioned datastore should make this form of interaction possible via traditional means, without having to use "convenience scripts" to move things into and out of the "Journal". It's indeed a good use case. - Eben >> -- >> Gary Oberbrunner >> ___ >> Devel mailing list >> Devel@lists.laptop.org >> http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel > > ___ > Devel mailing list > Devel@lists.laptop.org > http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel > ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: notes on Journal feedback (was Re: Bundle activity)
On Oct 7, 2008, at 7:20 AM, Gary Oberbrunner wrote: > Tomeu Vizoso wrote: >> On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 3:47 PM, Erik Garrison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> wrote: >>> On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 09:17:16AM +0200, Tomeu Vizoso wrote: On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 10:40 PM, Erik Garrison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > ... >>> 3) "How do I share files to/from an XO?" "I just did this work >>> but now >>> where is the resultant file?" Interface with the outside world. >> >> How could we better define the "outside world"? Do you think we could >> get a list of the main use cases when taking data out of XO systems? > > My $0.02 (aka. "wild guess") is that the following three use cases > cover > 90+% of all of them: > > 1. files to and from a FAT-formatted USB stick > 2. files to and from a wifi SMB share > 3. email attachments in and out Another use case I have seen is: 4. files to and from a host system using a ssh connection and scp. (could this be put in an activity wrapper?) Also some G1G1 users, use scripts to extract data from the data store. > > -- > Gary Oberbrunner > ___ > Devel mailing list > Devel@lists.laptop.org > http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
I: notes on Journal feedback (was Re: Bundle activity)
Hi Eben, I had in mind the first case, in the sense that's definitely an entry/exit point of contents into/from the Sugar ecosystem. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I start to see those in/out interaction mainly at a formal transformation between two different spaces: the Journal & hierarchical FS Spaces, during which, hopefully, the least information should be loosen. ciao carlo > - Messaggio originale - > > Da: Eben Eliason > > A: Carlo Falciola > > Inviato: Martedì 7 ottobre 2008, 17:06:31 > > Oggetto: Re: notes on Journal feedback (was Re: Bundle activity) > > > > On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 10:33 AM, Carlo Falciola wrote: > > > Let's add Upload/Download from a website, too. > > > > Let's hash that point out a bit further, because I can see it in two > > ways. The primary discriminator is whether by "a website" you mean > > "any website" or "a particular website". > > > > In the former case, I think the task is really suited to Browse (or > > your browser of choice), as it's usually necessary to upload via a > > form specific to the site. We should do a little more work to make > > uploading a file easy, and to make the download process more > > streamlined, requiring fewer steps to ultimately view a downloaded > > file. I believe there are some ideas on how to do this floating > > around, ideally eliminating the need to dive into the Journal first to > > open the newly downloaded object. > > > > In the latter case, you might be referring to something which will, > > hopefully, become a part of the backup system. The backup system will > > naturally push things from the Journal to the server. In the future, > > we certainly could expand this idea with the addition of, for lack of > > a better term right now, "share me" flag. Any document with a "share > > me" flag, once backed up, could be served up locally on the school > > server to provide an ever growing repository of content and > > information, for sharing and remixing. > > > > Which of of these, or what other undiscussed notion of > > upload/download, did you have in mind? Thanks! > > > > - Eben > > > > > > > Carlo > > > > > > > > > > > > Tomeu Vizoso wrote: > > >> On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 3:47 PM, Erik Garrison wrote: > > >>> On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 09:17:16AM +0200, Tomeu Vizoso wrote: > > >>>> On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 10:40 PM, Erik Garrison wrote: > > > ... > > >>> 3) "How do I share files to/from an XO?" "I just did this work but now > > >>> where is the resultant file?" Interface with the outside world. > > >> > > >> How could we better define the "outside world"? Do you think we could > > >> get a list of the main use cases when taking data out of XO systems? > > > > > > My $0.02 (aka. "wild guess") is that the following three use cases cover > > > 90+% of all of them: > > > > > > 1. files to and from a FAT-formatted USB stick > > > 2. files to and from a wifi SMB share > > > 3. email attachments in and out > > > > > > -- > > > Gary Oberbrunner > > > > > > > > > > > > Scopri il blog di Yahoo! Mail: > > > Trucchi, novità e scrivi la tua opinione. > > > http://www.ymailblogit.com/blog > > > ___ > > > Devel mailing list > > > Devel@lists.laptop.org > > > http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel > > > > > > > Scopri il blog di Yahoo! Mail: > Trucchi, novità e scrivi la tua opinione. > http://www.ymailblogit.com/blog Scopri il blog di Yahoo! Mail: Trucchi, novità e scrivi la tua opinione. http://www.ymailblogit.com/blog ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: notes on Journal feedback (was Re: Bundle activity)
On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 10:33 AM, Carlo Falciola <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Let's add Upload/Download from a website, too. Let's hash that point out a bit further, because I can see it in two ways. The primary discriminator is whether by "a website" you mean "any website" or "a particular website". In the former case, I think the task is really suited to Browse (or your browser of choice), as it's usually necessary to upload via a form specific to the site. We should do a little more work to make uploading a file easy, and to make the download process more streamlined, requiring fewer steps to ultimately view a downloaded file. I believe there are some ideas on how to do this floating around, ideally eliminating the need to dive into the Journal first to open the newly downloaded object. In the latter case, you might be referring to something which will, hopefully, become a part of the backup system. The backup system will naturally push things from the Journal to the server. In the future, we certainly could expand this idea with the addition of, for lack of a better term right now, "share me" flag. Any document with a "share me" flag, once backed up, could be served up locally on the school server to provide an ever growing repository of content and information, for sharing and remixing. Which of of these, or what other undiscussed notion of upload/download, did you have in mind? Thanks! - Eben > Carlo > > > > Tomeu Vizoso wrote: >> On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 3:47 PM, Erik Garrison wrote: >>> On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 09:17:16AM +0200, Tomeu Vizoso wrote: On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 10:40 PM, Erik Garrison wrote: > ... >>> 3) "How do I share files to/from an XO?" "I just did this work but now >>> where is the resultant file?" Interface with the outside world. >> >> How could we better define the "outside world"? Do you think we could >> get a list of the main use cases when taking data out of XO systems? > > My $0.02 (aka. "wild guess") is that the following three use cases cover > 90+% of all of them: > > 1. files to and from a FAT-formatted USB stick > 2. files to and from a wifi SMB share > 3. email attachments in and out > > -- > Gary Oberbrunner > > > > Scopri il blog di Yahoo! Mail: > Trucchi, novità e scrivi la tua opinione. > http://www.ymailblogit.com/blog > ___ > Devel mailing list > Devel@lists.laptop.org > http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel > ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: notes on Journal feedback (was Re: Bundle activity)
and maybe a fourth: uploading/downloading files from the web. -walter On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 10:20 AM, Gary Oberbrunner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Tomeu Vizoso wrote: >> On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 3:47 PM, Erik Garrison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>> On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 09:17:16AM +0200, Tomeu Vizoso wrote: On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 10:40 PM, Erik Garrison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > ... >>> 3) "How do I share files to/from an XO?" "I just did this work but now >>> where is the resultant file?" Interface with the outside world. >> >> How could we better define the "outside world"? Do you think we could >> get a list of the main use cases when taking data out of XO systems? > > My $0.02 (aka. "wild guess") is that the following three use cases cover > 90+% of all of them: > > 1. files to and from a FAT-formatted USB stick > 2. files to and from a wifi SMB share > 3. email attachments in and out > > -- > Gary Oberbrunner > ___ > Devel mailing list > Devel@lists.laptop.org > http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel > -- Walter Bender Sugar Labs http://www.sugarlabs.org ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: notes on Journal feedback (was Re: Bundle activity)
On Tue, Oct 07, 2008 at 10:20:48AM -0400, Gary Oberbrunner wrote: > Tomeu Vizoso wrote: > > On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 3:47 PM, Erik Garrison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 09:17:16AM +0200, Tomeu Vizoso wrote: > >>> On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 10:40 PM, Erik Garrison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > ... > >> 3) "How do I share files to/from an XO?" "I just did this work but now > >> where is the resultant file?" Interface with the outside world. > > > > How could we better define the "outside world"? Do you think we could > > get a list of the main use cases when taking data out of XO systems? > > My $0.02 (aka. "wild guess") is that the following three use cases cover > 90+% of all of them: > > 1. files to and from a FAT-formatted USB stick > 2. files to and from a wifi SMB share > 3. email attachments in and out 4. non-sugar desktop systems and programs on the same physical system Erik ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
notes on Journal feedback (was Re: Bundle activity)
Let's add Upload/Download from a website, too. Carlo Tomeu Vizoso wrote: > On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 3:47 PM, Erik Garrison wrote: >> On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 09:17:16AM +0200, Tomeu Vizoso wrote: >>> On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 10:40 PM, Erik Garrison wrote: ... >> 3) "How do I share files to/from an XO?" "I just did this work but now >> where is the resultant file?" Interface with the outside world. > > How could we better define the "outside world"? Do you think we could > get a list of the main use cases when taking data out of XO systems? My $0.02 (aka. "wild guess") is that the following three use cases cover 90+% of all of them: 1. files to and from a FAT-formatted USB stick 2. files to and from a wifi SMB share 3. email attachments in and out -- Gary Oberbrunner Scopri il blog di Yahoo! Mail: Trucchi, novità e scrivi la tua opinione. http://www.ymailblogit.com/blog ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: notes on Journal feedback (was Re: Bundle activity)
Tomeu Vizoso wrote: > On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 3:47 PM, Erik Garrison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 09:17:16AM +0200, Tomeu Vizoso wrote: >>> On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 10:40 PM, Erik Garrison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: ... >> 3) "How do I share files to/from an XO?" "I just did this work but now >> where is the resultant file?" Interface with the outside world. > > How could we better define the "outside world"? Do you think we could > get a list of the main use cases when taking data out of XO systems? My $0.02 (aka. "wild guess") is that the following three use cases cover 90+% of all of them: 1. files to and from a FAT-formatted USB stick 2. files to and from a wifi SMB share 3. email attachments in and out -- Gary Oberbrunner ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: notes on Journal feedback (was Re: Bundle activity)
On Tue, Oct 07, 2008 at 12:14:13PM +0200, Tomeu Vizoso wrote: > On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 3:47 PM, Erik Garrison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 09:17:16AM +0200, Tomeu Vizoso wrote: > >> On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 10:40 PM, Erik Garrison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> > When I was in Uruguay more teachers asked me about issues with the > >> > Journal than anything else. I keep poking on this issue to remind > >> > people that it's not going away in the field. > >> > >> Could you please tell us more about the issues reported? > > > > 1) Data loss. Teachers I met mentioned seeing bugs where the students > > Journal was wiped clean, or where things went missing. Without live > > examples this is pretty hard to diagnose. Perhaps an effect of running > > on such an old build. > > Yes, this improved in 0.82 and is a big goal for 0.84: > > http://sugarlabs.org/go/DevelopmentTeam/0.84/Reliability > http://sugarlabs.org/go/DevelopmentTeam/DatastoreRewrite#Reliability > I think that (4) is actually mixed with (1) as well. The problem is that the activity API is auto-saving work sessions. If left unchecked by the user they'll end up with a Journal full of lots of entries they didn't intentionally create. The system doesn't require the intentionality of its user to save, yet the result of saving and auto-saving are identical. It's hard to find the important things among the pile of unimportant things which result from everyday use of the interface. From a user's perspective, or the perspective of their teacher, this is equivalent to data loss. > > 2) Journal startup failures borking the whole system / Journal never > > completing startup but Sugar starting. Possibly because of NAND-full. > > If so we have fixed it. Interestingly, I heard about kids resolving > > this issue manually from the command-line (although their teacher didn't > > know exactly what they did! I'm guessing they removed their data > > directory.). > > Yes, IMO, this is the same issue as 1) > Additionally, users could be deleting their Journals from the command line simply because they can't find anything they need and they don't care about saving their data. We have a data manager which doesn't acknowledge files, purportedly for the benefit of its very young, and technically uninitiated users. Then, when it's not working they drop into the command line and delete its configuration and data caches manually using rm -rf ! (This knowledge is becoming quite common in at least one of our deployments. Just yesterday a kid from Uruguay came into #olpc-ayuda to ask exactly how to do this. And this morning a user spontaneously wrote rm .sugar/default/confis into the channel...) > > 3) "How do I share files to/from an XO?" "I just did this work but now > > where is the resultant file?" Interface with the outside world. > > How could we better define the "outside world"? Do you think we could > get a list of the main use cases when taking data out of XO systems? > "Anything that can use a file" would be a good description of all the main use cases. How do we get lumps of bits from here to there without acknowledging the utility of the file abstraction? > > 4) General usability concerns; questions about why the design was > > chosen. Difficulty finding things in the produced action history. > > How could we get to know which are those concerns? Perhaps we could > try to get the people who can give this feedback on the olpc-sur > mailing list, have some discussion there in spanish and then summarize > in the global lists and wiki? And if you could by a chance remember > any concrete usability concern, please post it here. > > I think we all agree that the journal sucks in a lot of senses. We are > trying to improve it by implementing the biggest missing pieces and > patching the biggest wholes, but if it was at all possible to choose > the priorities based on real feedback from the field, I'm pretty sure > the result will be much better. Do you think we can get feedback on a > form we can actually use? I think we should ask around on olpc-sur! I also recommend coming to #olpc-ayuda and talking with the kids who are trying to 'fix' issues with their Journal via the command line. Erik ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: notes on Journal feedback (was Re: Bundle activity)
On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 3:47 PM, Erik Garrison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 09:17:16AM +0200, Tomeu Vizoso wrote: >> On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 10:40 PM, Erik Garrison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> > When I was in Uruguay more teachers asked me about issues with the >> > Journal than anything else. I keep poking on this issue to remind >> > people that it's not going away in the field. >> >> Could you please tell us more about the issues reported? > > 1) Data loss. Teachers I met mentioned seeing bugs where the students > Journal was wiped clean, or where things went missing. Without live > examples this is pretty hard to diagnose. Perhaps an effect of running > on such an old build. Yes, this improved in 0.82 and is a big goal for 0.84: http://sugarlabs.org/go/DevelopmentTeam/0.84/Reliability http://sugarlabs.org/go/DevelopmentTeam/DatastoreRewrite#Reliability > 2) Journal startup failures borking the whole system / Journal never > completing startup but Sugar starting. Possibly because of NAND-full. > If so we have fixed it. Interestingly, I heard about kids resolving > this issue manually from the command-line (although their teacher didn't > know exactly what they did! I'm guessing they removed their data > directory.). Yes, IMO, this is the same issue as 1) > 3) "How do I share files to/from an XO?" "I just did this work but now > where is the resultant file?" Interface with the outside world. How could we better define the "outside world"? Do you think we could get a list of the main use cases when taking data out of XO systems? > 4) General usability concerns; questions about why the design was > chosen. Difficulty finding things in the produced action history. How could we get to know which are those concerns? Perhaps we could try to get the people who can give this feedback on the olpc-sur mailing list, have some discussion there in spanish and then summarize in the global lists and wiki? And if you could by a chance remember any concrete usability concern, please post it here. I think we all agree that the journal sucks in a lot of senses. We are trying to improve it by implementing the biggest missing pieces and patching the biggest wholes, but if it was at all possible to choose the priorities based on real feedback from the field, I'm pretty sure the result will be much better. Do you think we can get feedback on a form we can actually use? Thanks, Tomeu ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
notes on Journal feedback (was Re: Bundle activity)
On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 09:17:16AM +0200, Tomeu Vizoso wrote: > On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 10:40 PM, Erik Garrison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > When I was in Uruguay more teachers asked me about issues with the > > Journal than anything else. I keep poking on this issue to remind > > people that it's not going away in the field. > > Could you please tell us more about the issues reported? 1) Data loss. Teachers I met mentioned seeing bugs where the students Journal was wiped clean, or where things went missing. Without live examples this is pretty hard to diagnose. Perhaps an effect of running on such an old build. 2) Journal startup failures borking the whole system / Journal never completing startup but Sugar starting. Possibly because of NAND-full. If so we have fixed it. Interestingly, I heard about kids resolving this issue manually from the command-line (although their teacher didn't know exactly what they did! I'm guessing they removed their data directory.). 3) "How do I share files to/from an XO?" "I just did this work but now where is the resultant file?" Interface with the outside world. 4) General usability concerns; questions about why the design was chosen. Difficulty finding things in the produced action history. I will try to think of more on my ride to work. Erik ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
