Re: tool elitism
On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 4:59 PM, Carlos Nazareno wrote: >>>And shiny distracts. > > Then write an app that's not shiny. Can you please get over your gut > revulsion? I have the same reaction to Macs. Ok gentlemen. Let's put things this way -- we are cluttering the development list of olpc just as we are nearing a release, with things that are not about helping development at all. They are about our favourite tools. This is 100% offtopic at a very bad time. Carlos, Flash lovers, feel free to make your own images with Flash or install Flash on your machine.. When a _deployment team_ bundles Flash in an image in their OS image, *there is no problem*. They have to fill an online form at adobe.com, and add the rpm to the build. That's all the drama. The only complication you might face is that if you build an OS image with Flash, the terms of licensing with Adobe allow you to distribute but forbid further re-distribution. In other words: no mirrors, no derivatives of your image. If you have a problem with that, direct your email rage at adobe.com . OLPC wants to encourage mirrors and people (deployment teams!) making derivatives of our images, so those terms are no go. So -- there is *no* drama. Stop this show. Over now. There's a lot of real work to do. m -- martin.langh...@gmail.com mar...@laptop.org -- School Server Architect - ask interesting questions - don't get distracted with shiny stuff - working code first - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: tool elitism
> > Uh... I'm also very fond of Processing. It runs okay for me on the > XO-1, just a bit slow and the obvious problem with Sugar since > processing is generally multi-window. > > Okay, kidding aside, what's the point of developing hardware and > software for OLPC anyway? Aren't these just delivery mechanisms for > educational content? What do kids and teachers care what computer > language they're written in anyway as long as they work well on their > machines and play nice? > > Look. I'm really serious here. > What if there are thousands of us out there who want to develop > content for OLPC, but just can't because it's Python/Sugar? > > And what's so evil with free as in beer if there's no ulterior motive > to raise a generation of locked-in consumers behind it? (sure MS could > benefit. Sure Adobe could benefit. Can you blame them if they make > great tools that allow content creators to express themselves better?) > > There's an old saying that goes "beggars can't be choosers." > Why refuse our help? We're here. We want to help. We know you need help. I lost track of "us" vs "them"...and who is the beggar in all this? Maybe you should keep your e-mails short. Sameer ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: tool elitism
I know I shouldn't feed the troll but ... On 12.04.2010, at 22:59, Carlos Nazareno wrote: > What I'm saying is that there's an army of us out there who can be > willing to volunteer and dev for the XO. However, a lot of us don't > have the luxury to learn Python/Sugarization or maybe just work best > with the tools we're comfortable with. Most of us are Windows users > too. Can't we volunteer to develop content for the OLPC with our tools > if they can run decently and play well? Of course you can. *Nobody* is preventing you from using any tool you like for this. > I can't believe I'm saying this (shudder), but aside from Flash, why > not also look into Moonlight and maybe ask Microsoft for help getting > it running well so that C#,VB & .NET coders can also contribute > content for the XO? Go ahead. Ask them. Nobody here is keeping you. > Look. I'm really serious here. > What if there are thousands of us out there who want to develop > content for OLPC, but just can't because it's Python/Sugar? You seriously have no idea. Sugar apps can be written in *any* language, if it can show an X11 window. For full integration it also needs D-Bus bindings. That's it. I know, because I did it. How about you? > I hope I haven't offended anyone. I really hope you guys see what I'm > trying to say because OLPC needs all the help it can get (and you > don't need to compromise your principles). I'm sorry to be blunt, but > OLPC has already jaded and alienated a lot of supporters (just read > Slashdot, the largest nerd army in the world). By creating additional > avenues for developers to contribute, I hope we can revive and > increase interest for volunteers. You're offending us insofar as you are wasting our time by not doing your homework. Get your facts straight before complaining. - Bert - ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: tool elitism
Hi, > Okay. My question is, aside from the fact that you need to shell > out cash to do iPhone dev and that both apple and developers are > doing it for the money, what now differentiates OLPC/Sugar from > the iPhone? Isn't that also a form of walled-garden lock-in? .. seriously? I don't know how we can have a conversation with such hyperbole. We aren't preventing any developer from doing anything, and many non-Python activities already exist and are popular. The comparison is entirely unfounded. - Chris. -- Chris Ball One Laptop Per Child ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
tool elitism
>>And shiny distracts. Then write an app that's not shiny. Can you please get over your gut revulsion? I have the same reaction to Macs. >>> has a free-open-source IDE (FlashDevelop) from a community, >> does this run on the XO? > > Nope. We're to believe that Flash is appropriate for constructionism > on the XO even though it doesn't allow XO users to construct anything. Yes it does. All you need is any text editor to write AS3 code + the basic MXML container, JRE, Flex SDK, and a command line. It's the exact same thing as Java development except you substitute JRE + Flex SDK for JDK. You don't need Flashdevelop. It's just an AS editor with auto-complete, project management & compiler linking. It doesn't run on Linux because it was built with .NET. All you need is the above, GIMP for images, then Audacity and a microphone for sound. I don't see how the process is any less different or how it's evil given the fact that it's the exact same situation as back in '97 when they made the switch from C to Java as initial medium of instruction at our university. (yeah yeah, lazy kids these days don't know how to do malloc, linked lists, blah blah blah) Anyway, feel free to ask me technical questions on toolsets needed, workflow, etc. Be warned though, that I'm mostly a windows user and mostly dip into Ubuntu (If I could just run all my worktools and games in there, I'd have already fully migrated from XP). (I find Fedora to be too bloated for my taste... 4GB of hard disk space default for Werewolf? Bah.) Ok, changing topics now. - I suppose most of you guys have heard by now what Steve Jobs did last Thursday. For those of you who haven't, Apple released the iPhone OS 4 beta SDK which featured the new developer terms of service in the now infamous Section 3.3.1: 3.3.1 — Applications may only use Documented APIs in the manner prescribed by Apple and must not use or call any private APIs. Applications must be ORIGINALLY written in Objective-C, C, C++, or JavaScript as executed by the iPhone OS WebKit engine, and only code written in C, C++, and Objective-C may compile and directly link against the Documented APIs (e.g., Applications that link to Documented APIs through an intermediary translation or compatibility layer or tool are prohibited). --- Essentially developers are no longer allowed to choose 3rd-party tools they are comfortable with and only apps developed with tools approved by Apple are allowed on the iPhone App Store. Affected by this are Novell's Monotouch (C#/.NET to iPhone), Ansca Mobile Corona (LUA to iPhone), Flash CS5 (AS3 to iPhone), Unity3D, Appcelerator Titanium. I won't go into it in-depth here, if anyone's interested just Google around. I'm also writing an article about it and if anyone's interested, I'll share the link once it's up. Please give this letter from Corey Johnson a read: http://probablyinteractive.com/2010/4/11/letter-to-steve-jobs.html Now change Objective-C to Python. "Objective-C is not a filter for crappy apps, it's not the magical ingredient for an amazing app, it is just a tool. Have faith in developers again, don't shackle us to a single tool, let us decide which language fits our needs best." Okay. My question is, aside from the fact that you need to shell out cash to do iPhone dev and that both apple and developers are doing it for the money, what now differentiates OLPC/Sugar from the iPhone? Isn't that also a form of walled-garden lock-in? What I'm saying is that there's an army of us out there who can be willing to volunteer and dev for the XO. However, a lot of us don't have the luxury to learn Python/Sugarization or maybe just work best with the tools we're comfortable with. Most of us are Windows users too. Can't we volunteer to develop content for the OLPC with our tools if they can run decently and play well? I can't believe I'm saying this (shudder), but aside from Flash, why not also look into Moonlight and maybe ask Microsoft for help getting it running well so that C#,VB & .NET coders can also contribute content for the XO? ***cue gasps of horror and disbelief from entire room*** *awkward silence* Uh... I'm also very fond of Processing. It runs okay for me on the XO-1, just a bit slow and the obvious problem with Sugar since processing is generally multi-window. Okay, kidding aside, what's the point of developing hardware and software for OLPC anyway? Aren't these just delivery mechanisms for educational content? What do kids and teachers care what computer language they're written in anyway as long as they work well on their machines and play nice? Look. I'm really serious here. What if there are thousands of us out there who want to develop content for OLPC, but just can't because it's Python/Sugar? And what's so evil with free as in beer if there's no ulterior motive to raise a generation of locked-in consumers behind it? (sure MS could benefit. Sure Adobe could benefit. Can you blame them if they make great tool
