Yo Richard!
On Sat, 5 Sep 2020 18:22:50 -0500
Richard Laager via devel wrote:
> On 9/5/20 5:39 PM, Gary E. Miller via devel wrote:
> > It would be nice if you answered my objections
>
> Your primary concern seems to be that users will complain. Let me take
> smaller bites at that:
>
> RHEL 7
On 9/5/20 5:39 PM, Gary E. Miller via devel wrote:
> It would be nice if you answered my objections
Your primary concern seems to be that users will complain. Let me take
smaller bites at that:
RHEL 7 has Python 2.7.5 and Python 3.6.8. User "complains". We say, "run
`yum install python3`". Is thi
Yo Richard!
On Sat, 5 Sep 2020 17:02:57 -0500
Richard Laager via devel wrote:
> On 9/5/20 2:19 PM, Gary E. Miller via devel wrote:
> > And yet, Gentoo, and others still ship 2.7. And end users still
> > use it.
>
> This is not a discussion about whether Gentoo should drop Python 2.7.
> It's
On 9/5/20 2:19 PM, Gary E. Miller via devel wrote:
> And yet, Gentoo, and others still ship 2.7. And end users still use it.
This is not a discussion about whether Gentoo should drop Python 2.7.
It's not a discussion about whether users should stop using Python 2
entirely. Perhaps we can intuit e
Yo Achim!
On Sat, 5 Sep 2020 11:16:43 +0200
Achim Gratz via devel wrote:
> It is already officially dead since January (five years past the
> original deadline), see above.
Uh, no. Last Python 2.7,18 was released 20 April 2020.
So restart the five year clock.
RGDS
GARY
-
Yo Achim!
On Sat, 5 Sep 2020 11:16:43 +0200
Achim Gratz via devel wrote:
> Am 04.09.2020 um 18:48 schrieb Gary E. Miller via devel:
> > Just because you do not use something does not make it dead.
>
> This is what upstream says about it:
>
> https://www.python.org/doc/sunset-python-2/
Yup,
Am 04.09.2020 um 18:48 schrieb Gary E. Miller via devel:
Just because you do not use something does not make it dead.
This is what upstream says about it:
https://www.python.org/doc/sunset-python-2/
When distros no longer support Python 2, then it will be dead.
It is already officially dea
Yo Richard!
On Fri, 4 Sep 2020 02:14:13 -0500
Richard Laager via devel wrote:
> On 9/4/20 1:37 AM, Hal Murray via devel wrote:
> > Another question... How many systems are we interested in that
> > have Python2, don't have Python3, and have a version of OpenSSL
> > that is too old for NTS?
>
Yo Stephan!
On Fri, 4 Sep 2020 09:37:47 +0200
Stephan Seitz via devel wrote:
> I don’t know how much work it is to support python 2, but python 2 is
> dead and
Just because you do not use something does not make it dead.
When distros no longer support Python 2, then it will be dead.
> I woul
Yo Eric!
On Fri, 4 Sep 2020 08:23:05 -0400
"Eric S. Raymond" wrote:
> Gary E. Miller via devel :
> > As previously mentioned here: RHEL 6.
>
> Which is about to EOL.
Then let us table the discussion until all the major distros have
EOLed Python 2.
>
> > Supporting Python 2 is trivial. Why
Gary E. Miller via devel :
> As previously mentioned here: RHEL 6.
Which is about to EOL.
> Supporting Python 2 is trivial. Why the hate?
Because it's not in fact trivial. It's *doable*; Peter Donis and I are
the expers on how to do it. But it's not trivial. It proliferates
code and test path
On Do, Sep 03, 2020 at 23:06:48 -0700, Gary E. Miller via devel wrote:
Why the hate for Python 2? Supporting it is trivial. Let the distros
stop supporting Python 2 before we do. When distros support Python 2, we
I think this is the wrong way.
Distros can stop supporting python 2 when every
On 9/4/20 1:37 AM, Hal Murray via devel wrote:
> Another question... How many systems are we interested in that have Python2,
> don't have Python3, and have a version of OpenSSL that is too old for NTS?
The OpenSSL requirement* (>= 1.1.1b) requires a lot newer distro
versions than the Python 3 r
Gary said:
> When distros support Python 2, we need to support Python 2.
Not quite. When distros support Python2 and Python3 is not available, then it
would be nice if we supported Python2.
There is still the question of how big that market is and how much effort it
takes to support it.
I a
Yo Richard!
On Fri, 4 Sep 2020 01:00:34 -0500
Richard Laager via devel wrote:
> [Reposting to list.]
>
> On 9/3/20 11:15 PM, Gary E. Miller via devel wrote:
> > The case you left out:
> >
> > # select 2.7
> > spidey ~ # python3 --version
> > Python 3.8.5
> >
> > Uh, oh. That is why we d
Yo Richard!
On Fri, 4 Sep 2020 00:37:11 -0500
Richard Laager via devel wrote:
> On 9/4/20 12:16 AM, Gary E. Miller via devel wrote:
> > On Thu, 3 Sep 2020 23:28:33 -0500
> > Richard Laager via devel wrote:
> >
> >> NTPsec can require Python
> >> 3 as long as all distros that NTPsec supports
[Reposting to list.]
On 9/3/20 11:15 PM, Gary E. Miller via devel wrote:
> The case you left out:
>
> # select 2.7
> spidey ~ # python3 --version
> Python 3.8.5
>
> Uh, oh. That is why we do not do that.
No, that is exactly as intended. The context here is that we want to
require Python 3
On 9/4/20 12:16 AM, Gary E. Miller via devel wrote:
> On Thu, 3 Sep 2020 23:28:33 -0500
> Richard Laager via devel wrote:
>
>> NTPsec can require Python
>> 3 as long as all distros that NTPsec supports can install Python 3.
>
> Yup. Let us know when that happens. Gonna be years from now.
Per
Yo Richard!
On Thu, 3 Sep 2020 23:28:33 -0500
Richard Laager via devel wrote:
> That is an argument about a different issue: whether distros/upstream
> Python should stop supporting Python 2. We are talking about whether
> NTPsec should continue to support Python 2. NTPsec can require Python
> 3
On 9/3/20 12:39 PM, Gary E. Miller via devel wrote:
>> There may be other reasons to keep Python 2 support, but as Richard
>> says RHEL 6 will stop being one of them before our next point release
>> after this one.
>
> And then how long for users to update? Two years? Three years?
The point of
Yo Richard!
On Thu, 3 Sep 2020 23:05:52 -0500
Richard Laager via devel wrote:
> On 9/3/20 1:12 PM, Gary E. Miller via devel wrote:
> > On Thu, 3 Sep 2020 02:30:43 -0500
> > Richard Laager via devel wrote:
> >
> >> On 9/2/20 7:44 PM, Gary E. Miller via devel wrote:
> 1. Change waf's sh
On 9/3/20 1:12 PM, Gary E. Miller via devel wrote:
> On Thu, 3 Sep 2020 02:30:43 -0500
> Richard Laager via devel wrote:
>
>> On 9/2/20 7:44 PM, Gary E. Miller via devel wrote:
1. Change waf's shebang:
-#!/usr/bin/env python
+#!/usr/bin/env python3
>>>
>>> Uh, no. That
Yo Eric!
On Thu, 3 Sep 2020 18:21:37 -0400
"Eric S. Raymond" wrote:
> > Or do you mean PYTHONPATHS? Which is a differnt thing.
>
> That's what I meant, yes.
Now that gpsd is Pure Python this is much less a deal.
You can install the gpsd python modules in one place and use the
only module f
Gary E. Miller via devel :
> Yo Eric!
>
> On Thu, 3 Sep 2020 14:13:05 -0400
> "Eric S. Raymond" wrote:
>
> > Gary E. Miller via devel :
> > > Say what? This has zero to do with libraries.
> >
> > Sure it dies. Use different versions of Python, require different
> > library paths.
>
> No mo
Yo Eric!
On Thu, 3 Sep 2020 14:13:05 -0400
"Eric S. Raymond" wrote:
> Gary E. Miller via devel :
> > Say what? This has zero to do with libraries.
>
> Sure it dies. Use different versions of Python, require different
> library paths.
No more than any other versioned programs use their vers
Yo Richard!
On Thu, 3 Sep 2020 02:30:43 -0500
Richard Laager via devel wrote:
> On 9/2/20 7:44 PM, Gary E. Miller via devel wrote:
> >> 1. Change waf's shebang:
> >> -#!/usr/bin/env python
> >> +#!/usr/bin/env python3
> >
> > Uh, no. That breaks Gentoo eselect.
>
> How, specific
Gary E. Miller via devel :
> Say what? This has zero to do with libraries.
Sure it dies. Use different versions of Python, require different
library paths.
--
http://www.catb.org/~esr/";>Eric S. Raymond
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Yo Richard!
On Thu, 3 Sep 2020 02:30:48 -0500
Richard Laager via devel wrote:
> On 9/2/20 7:54 PM, Gary E. Miller via devel wrote:
> > A big one: RHEL. As I said earlier, any time Python 2 breaks in
> > gpsd it only takes a day or two for complaints. I have customers
> > that will be on RHEL f
Yo Eric!
On Thu, 3 Sep 2020 06:14:13 -0400
"Eric S. Raymond via devel" wrote:
> Richard Laager via devel :
> > RHEL 6 support (measured in terms of security updates) ends in
> > November of this year. So by the time a version of NTPsec releases
> > without Python 2 support, we'd be looking at RH
Yo Eric!
On Thu, 3 Sep 2020 06:37:07 -0400
"Eric S. Raymond" wrote:
> Gary E. Miller via devel :
> > > I don't want to go down this road. I have ugly memories
> > > associated with a smiliar hack in gpsd, long ago.
> >
> > But what about how it works now? All the maintainers like it.
>
>
Gary E. Miller via devel :
> > I don't want to go down this road. I have ugly memories associated
> > with a smiliar hack in gpsd, long ago.
>
> But what about how it works now? All the maintainers like it.
Oh dear Goddess. We are *still* mutating shebangs in GPSD? I must have
blotted that fro
Richard Laager via devel :
> > You realize that the POSIX doc says a pace after "#!", but so many do it
> > wrong they accept that variant.
> In NTPsec, there are 122 the wrong way and 81 the right way. As you say,
> either works. I don't particularly care about the space personally, but
> we can u
Richard Laager via devel :
> RHEL 6 support (measured in terms of security updates) ends in November
> of this year. So by the time a version of NTPsec releases without Python
> 2 support, we'd be looking at RHEL 7.
On top of that, it has been Red Hat's official position for some time
that RHEL 6
On 9/2/20 7:44 PM, Gary E. Miller via devel wrote:
>> 1. Change waf's shebang:
>> -#!/usr/bin/env python
>> +#!/usr/bin/env python3
>
> Uh, no. That breaks Gentoo eselect.
How, specifically?
What do these give on your system?
python3 --version
ls -l /usr/bin/python3
For compariso
On 9/2/20 7:54 PM, Gary E. Miller via devel wrote:
> A big one: RHEL. As I said earlier, any time Python 2 breaks in gpsd
> it only takes a day or two for complaints. I have customers that will
> be on RHEL for years to come. They need NTPsec.
RHEL 6 support (measured in terms of security update
Richard said:
> Option B is a little bit more work, but keeps the scripts directly executable
> from the source tree, which could be helpful for development. (The other
> substitutions aren't typically critical, as they are things like
> @NTPSEC_VERSION_EXTENDED@.) Is this something people care a
Yo Eric!
On Wed, 2 Sep 2020 20:51:45 -0400
"Eric S. Raymond via devel" wrote:
> Richard Laager via devel :
> > Let me start over now that I've reviewed the specifics of the NTPsec
> > scripts and build system again:
> >
> > We are currently using "#!/usr/bin/env python" in all the scripts,
> >
Richard Laager via devel :
> Let me start over now that I've reviewed the specifics of the NTPsec
> scripts and build system again:
>
> We are currently using "#!/usr/bin/env python" in all the scripts, and
> waf uses the same. The minimum to do to drop Python 2 is:
>
> 1. Change waf's shebang:
>
Yo Richard!
On Wed, 2 Sep 2020 19:29:15 -0500
Richard Laager via devel wrote:
> Let me start over now that I've reviewed the specifics of the NTPsec
> scripts and build system again:
>
> We are currently using "#!/usr/bin/env python" in all the scripts,
Which is what the PEP preferred, until t
Let me start over now that I've reviewed the specifics of the NTPsec
scripts and build system again:
We are currently using "#!/usr/bin/env python" in all the scripts, and
waf uses the same. The minimum to do to drop Python 2 is:
1. Change waf's shebang:
-#!/usr/bin/env python
+#!/usr/b
Yo Richard!
On Wed, 2 Sep 2020 14:14:43 -0500
Richard Laager via devel wrote:
> >> Proposed: We should drop support for Python 2 and use a python3
> >> shebang in all our scripts.
>
> Yes, please.
We will have to agree to disagree. Unless you want to support all the
resulting support comlai
On 9/2/20 12:47 PM, Gary E. Miller via devel wrote:
> Yo Eric!
>
> On Wed, 2 Sep 2020 08:07:53 -0400 (EDT)
> "Eric S. Raymond via devel" wrote:
>
>> Retaining support for Python 2 proliferates test paths and
>> complicates the fix for at least one outstanding bug.
>
> Python 2 will be with us
Yo Eric!
On Wed, 2 Sep 2020 08:07:53 -0400 (EDT)
"Eric S. Raymond via devel" wrote:
> Retaining support for Python 2 proliferates test paths and
> complicates the fix for at least one outstanding bug.
Python 2 will be with us for years more. Any time gpsd changes
in a way that breaks Python 2
Eric said:
> Proposed: We should drop support for Python 2 and use a python3 shebang in
> all our scripts.
Works for me.
Do we want to do that now or after the hopefully soon release?
Now would debug things before a 1.2 release.
--
These are my opinions. I hate spam.
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