Sugar window managing UI (was: Re: Android, OLPC, and native hosting)

2010-01-06 Thread Sascha Silbe
On Tue, Jan 05, 2010 at 06:18:47PM -0500, C. Scott Ananian wrote: I think there's room for solid innovation here, especially since the window manager of sugar was *my* personal roadblock to productive on-XO activity development. Interesting. What exactly about the window manager crippled your

Re: Sugar window managing UI (was: Re: Android, OLPC, and native hosting)

2010-01-06 Thread Daniel Drake
On Wed, 2010-01-06 at 11:49 +0100, Sascha Silbe wrote: a) is harder as every window switch currently involves saving current state to the DS (which resides on an abysmally slow SD card in my case), usually done synchronously. It also generates log messages, right? In which case, a fix for

Re: Android, OLPC, and native hosting

2010-01-05 Thread C. Scott Ananian
On Sat, Jan 2, 2010 at 2:09 PM, Mikus Grinbergs mi...@bga.com wrote: Speaking of android, has anyone heard anything about google's other OS, chrome OS? Installed Chrome OS on my XO-1.5 when I was using os64 - the install pulled in a whole barnful of dependencies.  Did not find Chrome

Re: Android, OLPC, and native hosting

2010-01-02 Thread David Van Assche
Speaking of android, has anyone heard anything about google's other OS, chrome OS? kind regards, David On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 7:31 PM, Samuel Klein meta...@gmail.com wrote: NoiseEHC, I think your arguments would be more convincing if you didn't respond to every email, especially when you'd

Re: Android, OLPC, and native hosting

2009-12-30 Thread Samuel Klein
NoiseEHC, I think your arguments would be more convincing if you didn't respond to every email, especially when you'd made that point before in the same thread :-) On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 6:40 AM, NoiseEHC noise...@freemail.hu wrote: The software is designed for learning. *That* is what Sugar

Re: Android, OLPC, and native hosting

2009-12-29 Thread Martin Langhoff
On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 1:47 AM, NoiseEHC noise...@freemail.hu wrote: For the other people talking about IDEs: an usable IDE is not a text editor. Of course. What I do (and most other productive programmers I know do) is use the window manager (gnome, kde, awesome...), xterms, a webbrowser,

Re: Android, OLPC, and native hosting

2009-12-29 Thread NoiseEHC
Are you aware the XO ships a full Smalltalk IDE? You know, like VisualAge which later became Eclipse? It's hidden in the Etoys activity, but (surprise!) it's a kids laptop. Because someone will break your arms if you port Etoys to Android. Now I understand. The software is designed for

Re: Android, OLPC, and native hosting

2009-12-29 Thread NoiseEHC
For the other people talking about IDEs: an usable IDE is not a text editor. Of course. What I do (and most other productive programmers I know do) is use the window manager (gnome, kde, awesome...), xterms, a webbrowser, etc, to make a LIDE: loosely integrated dev environment. I've led

Re: Android, OLPC, and native hosting

2009-12-29 Thread Martin Langhoff
2009/12/29 NoiseEHC noise...@freemail.hu: me. Another (optional) question is why did you left out gdb from the list? All sorts of things run on the 3/4 xterms i use. valgrind, gdb, python -m pdb, tail -f /path/to/log, ipython, ps_mem.py, psql, git commands... All your code is perfect because

Re: Android, OLPC, and native hosting

2009-12-29 Thread NoiseEHC
2009/12/29 NoiseEHC noise...@freemail.hu: me. Another (optional) question is why did you left out gdb from the list? All sorts of things run on the 3/4 xterms i use. valgrind, gdb, python -m pdb, tail -f /path/to/log, ipython, ps_mem.py, psql, git commands... And if all those

Re: Android, OLPC, and native hosting

2009-12-29 Thread david
On Tue, 29 Dec 2009, NoiseEHC wrote: 2009/12/29 NoiseEHC noise...@freemail.hu: me. Another (optional) question is why did you left out gdb from the list? All sorts of things run on the 3/4 xterms i use. valgrind, gdb, python -m pdb, tail -f /path/to/log, ipython, ps_mem.py, psql, git

Re: Android, OLPC, and native hosting

2009-12-29 Thread Martin Langhoff
On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 7:15 PM, da...@lang.hm wrote: the advantage of a loosly coupled IDE is that one component can be replaced by something else without having to change/loose all the other things. Bingo! As soon as git was working, I switched fulltime to it (and dragged my team with me ;-)

Re: Android, OLPC, and native hosting

2009-12-29 Thread NoiseEHC
to do this you would have to declare one specific variation of these tools as the 'One True Way' and eliminate all the others. the advantage of a loosly coupled IDE is that one component can be replaced by something else without having to change/loose all the other things. and the

Re: Android, OLPC, and native hosting

2009-12-29 Thread Benjamin M. Schwartz
NoiseEHC wrote: What you do not want to recognize is that you are excluding a lot of developers who do not want to waste their time because of the lack of IDEs. We are trying to provide stepping stones. One of those steps is the Develop activity [1], which is a Sugar-oriented IDE for

Re: Android, OLPC, and native hosting

2009-12-28 Thread Martin Langhoff
On Sun, Dec 27, 2009 at 9:56 PM, John Gilmore g...@toad.com wrote:             I would argue that an operating system that doesn't natively host its development tools is not appropriate for OLPC's target audience. Does the XO-1 host its own development tools?  I don't think anyone has ever

Re: Android, OLPC, and native hosting

2009-12-28 Thread NoiseEHC
Actually, no. The .class - .dex compiler consumes an enormous amount of memory, so it is out of the question at least for now. How much is enormous ? A laptop/tablet is likely to have more than a smartphone... With hundreds of classes in a .jar to convert it uses some 256M, with

Re: Android, OLPC, and native hosting

2009-12-28 Thread John Watlington
On Dec 28, 2009, at 8:54 AM, NoiseEHC wrote: You can still create applications with http://code.google.com/p/android-scripting/ With the existing tools it is true that children cannot create the same quality applications what is possible with the Android SDK environment (even if we

Re: Android, OLPC, and native hosting

2009-12-28 Thread John Watlington
I just installed Fedora Eclipse on an XO-1.5 and launched it under Gnome.Granted, I ran into #9927 (/var/cache/yum too small)... Cheers, wad ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel

Re: Android, OLPC, and native hosting

2009-12-28 Thread C. Scott Ananian
On Mon, Dec 28, 2009 at 10:07 AM, John Watlington w...@laptop.org wrote: Ahem.   With XO-1.5, I feel that I AM shipping a full-fledged Linux PC to every child. Since when did it take more than a GB of RAM and 4GB of disk to host an IDE ? I think that was Emacs 23. j/k. ;-) --scott --

Re: Android, OLPC, and native hosting

2009-12-28 Thread Martin Langhoff
On Mon, Dec 28, 2009 at 7:25 PM, C. Scott Ananian csc...@laptop.org wrote: j/k. ;-) emacs is what I am using on both XO-1 and XO-1.5 so pretty good going ;-) (Along with vim! Peace!) Lots of people here want to claim we need Eclipse to have an IDE. Of all the developers involved in the whole

Re: Android, OLPC, and native hosting

2009-12-28 Thread Paul Fox
martin wrote: On Mon, Dec 28, 2009 at 7:25 PM, C. Scott Ananian csc...@laptop.org wrote: j/k. ;-) emacs is what I am using on both XO-1 and XO-1.5 so pretty good going ;-) (Along with vim! Peace!) Lots of people here want to claim we need Eclipse to have an IDE. Of all the

Re: Android, OLPC, and native hosting

2009-12-28 Thread John Watlington
On Dec 28, 2009, at 1:53 PM, Paul Fox wrote: martin wrote: On Mon, Dec 28, 2009 at 7:25 PM, C. Scott Ananian csc...@laptop.org wrote: j/k. ;-) emacs is what I am using on both XO-1 and XO-1.5 so pretty good going ;-) (Along with vim! Peace!) Lots of people here want to claim we need

Re: Android, OLPC, and native hosting

2009-12-28 Thread Paul Fox
wad wrote: Emacs forever ! (although it has gotten huge) hmm. how's its Flash player? :-) =- paul fox, p...@laptop.org ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel

Re: Android, OLPC, and native hosting

2009-12-28 Thread John Gilmore
Since when did it take more than a GB of RAM and 4GB of disk to host an IDE ? I think that was Emacs 23. No, that was Eight Megs and Continuously Swapping. I.e. in an amazingly large and expensive Sun Workstation with 8 *megabytes* of RAM, emacs would still make the system page-fault at a

Re: Android, OLPC, and native hosting

2009-12-28 Thread Neil Graham
On Mon, 2009-12-28 at 19:38 +0100, Martin Langhoff wrote: emacs is what I am using on both XO-1 and XO-1.5 so pretty good going ;-) (Along with vim! Peace!) Lots of people here want to claim we need Eclipse to have an IDE. Of all the developers involved in the whole Linux

Re: Android, OLPC, and native hosting

2009-12-28 Thread NoiseEHC
Ahem. With XO-1.5, I feel that I AM shipping a full-fledged Linux PC to every child. Since when did it take more than a GB of RAM and 4GB of disk to host an IDE ? My point still stands: until Android supports its own development tools, you are turning it's users into second class

Re: Android, OLPC, and native hosting

2009-12-28 Thread Bert Freudenberg
On 29.12.2009, at 01:47, NoiseEHC wrote: Ahem. With XO-1.5, I feel that I AM shipping a full-fledged Linux PC to every child. Since when did it take more than a GB of RAM and 4GB of disk to host an IDE ? My point still stands: until Android supports its own development tools, you

Re: Android, OLPC, and native hosting

2009-12-27 Thread John Gilmore
I would argue that an operating system that doesn't natively host its development tools is not appropriate for OLPC's target audience. Does the XO-1 host its own development tools? I don't think anyone has ever rebuilt the system from source code on an XO-1. I don't even know

Re: Android, OLPC, and native hosting

2009-12-27 Thread Michael Stone
Does the XO-1 host its own development tools? For all practical purposes, it does not. First, as you have noted, it takes quite a bit of bandwidth to install the toolchain and development headers. (And you have to know what they're called.) Second, to get anything done with C, you really

Re: Android, OLPC, and native hosting

2009-12-27 Thread NoiseEHC
Does Android not host its development tools because it doesn't run the X Window System? Since X already runs on most of the hardware that Android does, that wouldn't be too hard to remedy -- and would benefit the whole Android community. Actually, no. The .class - .dex compiler consumes

Re: Android, OLPC, and native hosting

2009-12-27 Thread John Watlington
On Dec 27, 2009, at 5:52 PM, NoiseEHC wrote: Does Android not host its development tools because it doesn't run the X Window System? Since X already runs on most of the hardware that Android does, that wouldn't be too hard to remedy -- and would benefit the whole Android community.