Sugar window managing UI (was: Re: Android, OLPC, and native hosting)

2010-01-06 Thread Sascha Silbe

On Tue, Jan 05, 2010 at 06:18:47PM -0500, C. Scott Ananian wrote:

I think there's room for solid innovation here, especially since the 
window manager of sugar was *my* personal roadblock to productive 
on-XO activity development.
Interesting. What exactly about the window manager crippled your 
productivity?
I myself am using full-screen workspaces (using ion3) on my desktop 
(with 24 TFT attached to it) most of the time. What I hate about the 
Sugar window managing UI is:

a) _very_ long switching time
b) there's no way to switch to a specific window (=activity instance), I 
need to cycle through all of them with Alt+Tab/Alt+Shift+Tab (the latter 
being somewhat difficult to type on the XO-1).


b) is probably easy enough to fix (just add some key bindings to 
metacity).
a) is harder as every window switch currently involves saving current 
state to the DS (which resides on an abysmally slow SD card in my case), 
usually done synchronously.


CU Sascha

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Re: Sugar window managing UI (was: Re: Android, OLPC, and native hosting)

2010-01-06 Thread Daniel Drake
On Wed, 2010-01-06 at 11:49 +0100, Sascha Silbe wrote:
 a) is harder as every window switch currently involves saving current 
 state to the DS (which resides on an abysmally slow SD card in my case), 
 usually done synchronously.

It also generates log messages, right? In which case, a fix for
http://dev.laptop.org/ticket/9924 would help significantly.

Daniel


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Re: Android, OLPC, and native hosting

2010-01-05 Thread C. Scott Ananian
On Sat, Jan 2, 2010 at 2:09 PM, Mikus Grinbergs mi...@bga.com wrote:
 Speaking of android, has anyone heard anything about google's other OS, 
 chrome OS?

 Installed Chrome OS on my XO-1.5 when I was using os64 - the install
 pulled in a whole barnful of dependencies.  Did not find Chrome
 impressive - but it probably is the most capable HTML5 implementation
 currently available.  What I noticed most was that the Menu Bar was
 rudimentary, with the entire screen sometimes being used instead of
 palettes.  This was a beta - performance quite humdrum.  On the XO,
 Opera is noticeably faster.

I've installed Chrome OS, and wasn't terribly impressed by either its
performance or its feature set.  Again, it was a beta, and the build I
used from from some random site, maybe wasn't a good build.

What *I* was interested to see is that all the webbooks (Chrome,
Android, Litl) are using the one full screen window model which OLPC
got such grief for.  Chrome OS has a slight variation, with floating
detachable subwindows, I think.  I think there's room for solid
innovation here, especially since the window manager of sugar was *my*
personal roadblock to productive on-XO activity development.

I think this thread has wandered off into non-productivity.  I
encourage anyone interested to port Android to XO hardware and/or try
to get good education tools working on Android.  I'll also plug Google
Wave here, since I think it's a good start at a robust and
standardized infrastructure for the collaborative model Sugar aspires
to.

Happy hacking!
 --scott

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Re: Android, OLPC, and native hosting

2010-01-02 Thread David Van Assche
Speaking of android, has anyone heard anything about google's other OS,
chrome OS?

kind regards,
David

On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 7:31 PM, Samuel Klein meta...@gmail.com wrote:

 NoiseEHC, I think your arguments would be more convincing if you
 didn't respond to every email, especially when you'd made that point
 before in the same thread :-)


 On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 6:40 AM, NoiseEHC noise...@freemail.hu wrote:

  The software is designed for learning. *That* is what Sugar was created
 for, which is not at all what Android was created for, as you claimed when
 starting this discussion.
 
 
  Another Straw Man argument. What I said was Android OS solves exactly
  the same *problems* Sugar has been created to solve. You know while you
  have noticed correctly that Android was created to be a phone OS and
  Sugar was created to be a learning OS (not too that hard to notice
  though), they had almost the same *problems* to solve. Because they had
  different goals they did not solve exactly the same problem set (it was
  an exaggeration in my sentence) but close (self hosting dev tools and
  local communication are the main differences).

 That said, I find Noise's line of reasoning here compelling.   What
 are specific features of the current Sugar experience that people
 think would be hard to port to Android [porting Etoys might in fact be
 hard]?

 SJ
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Re: Android, OLPC, and native hosting

2009-12-30 Thread Samuel Klein
NoiseEHC, I think your arguments would be more convincing if you
didn't respond to every email, especially when you'd made that point
before in the same thread :-)


On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 6:40 AM, NoiseEHC noise...@freemail.hu wrote:

 The software is designed for learning. *That* is what Sugar was created for, 
 which is not at all what Android was created for, as you claimed when 
 starting this discussion.


 Another Straw Man argument. What I said was Android OS solves exactly
 the same *problems* Sugar has been created to solve. You know while you
 have noticed correctly that Android was created to be a phone OS and
 Sugar was created to be a learning OS (not too that hard to notice
 though), they had almost the same *problems* to solve. Because they had
 different goals they did not solve exactly the same problem set (it was
 an exaggeration in my sentence) but close (self hosting dev tools and
 local communication are the main differences).

That said, I find Noise's line of reasoning here compelling.   What
are specific features of the current Sugar experience that people
think would be hard to port to Android [porting Etoys might in fact be
hard]?

SJ
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Re: Android, OLPC, and native hosting

2009-12-29 Thread Martin Langhoff
On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 1:47 AM, NoiseEHC noise...@freemail.hu wrote:
 For the other people talking about IDEs: an usable IDE is not a text
 editor.

Of course. What I do (and most other productive programmers I know do)
is use the window manager (gnome, kde, awesome...), xterms, a
webbrowser, etc, to make a LIDE: loosely integrated dev environment.

I've led various large programming teams -- all the top-quality and
top-productivity programmers had long since abandoned Eclipse and
similar TIDEs (tightly integrated DE).

I've used varios TIDEs over the last 10 years, Eclipse one of them.
They have all been inferior to the gnome/emacs/xterms/gitk setup I use
now.


 world records on the c64

I started on the C64 too, and you'll find others on this list have
similar and deeper chops than that. The point stands, however, TIDEs
are not needed, and in many many cases not optimal. You may try to
call them a valid stepping-stone in the learning, but you will need to
bring some solid proof.

BTW, when I program for the XO, I do it on an XO, with additional rpms
(git, emacs...). My only cheat is that I use an external keyboard.

cheers,



m
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 mar...@laptop.org -- School Server Architect
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Re: Android, OLPC, and native hosting

2009-12-29 Thread NoiseEHC

 Are you aware the XO ships a full Smalltalk IDE? You know, like VisualAge 
 which later became Eclipse? It's hidden in the Etoys activity, but 
 (surprise!) it's a kids laptop. 

Because someone will break your arms if you port Etoys to Android. Now I 
understand.

 The software is designed for learning. *That* is what Sugar was created for, 
 which is not at all what Android was created for, as you claimed when 
 starting this discussion.
   

Another Straw Man argument. What I said was Android OS solves exactly 
the same *problems* Sugar has been created to solve. You know while you 
have noticed correctly that Android was created to be a phone OS and 
Sugar was created to be a learning OS (not too that hard to notice 
though), they had almost the same *problems* to solve. Because they had 
different goals they did not solve exactly the same problem set (it was 
an exaggeration in my sentence) but close (self hosting dev tools and 
local communication are the main differences).

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Re: Android, OLPC, and native hosting

2009-12-29 Thread NoiseEHC



For the other people talking about IDEs: an usable IDE is not a text
editor.



Of course. What I do (and most other productive programmers I know do)
is use the window manager (gnome, kde, awesome...), xterms, a
webbrowser, etc, to make a LIDE: loosely integrated dev environment.

I've led various large programming teams -- all the top-quality and
top-productivity programmers had long since abandoned Eclipse and
similar TIDEs (tightly integrated DE).

I've used varios TIDEs over the last 10 years, Eclipse one of them.
They have all been inferior to the gnome/emacs/xterms/gitk setup I use
now.

  


Yeah, the Real Men Do Not Debug argument... Have you considered the 
possibility that those top-quality programmers abandoned IDEs because 
they do not play well with UNIX makefiles and mixed language projects or 
because they just love emacs macros or because debugging on UNIX sux? 
How is it applicable for developing a simple Activity is beyond me so 
please enlighten me. Another (optional) question is why did you left out 
gdb from the list? All your code is perfect because you are a 
top-quality programmer who do not make mistakes because of emacs or what?



I started on the C64 too, and you'll find others on this list have
similar and deeper chops than that. The point stands, however, TIDEs
are not needed, and in many many cases not optimal. You may try to
call them a valid stepping-stone in the learning, but you will need to
bring some solid proof.

BTW, when I program for the XO, I do it on an XO, with additional rpms
(git, emacs...). My only cheat is that I use an external keyboard.

  


You know I do not argue that IDEs are an absolute necessity to develop 
code because even I can develop without IDEs, like the endless suffering 
I had to enjoy while fixing some kernel bugs. What I am saying is that I 
*do not want* to develop without IDEs. Probably because I am not a 
member of the Real Men Do Not Debug Club or I am not one of the 
top-quality and top-productivity programmers, I do not care. What I do 
care is that because of the lack of IDEs for Sugar development you can 
only choose from the members of the very exclusive Real Men Do Not Debug 
Club. Of course if we limit ourselves to the people who can be 
productive without IDEs then of course IDEs are not a necessity. You 
really did not had to type so much to show this tautology to me.



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Re: Android, OLPC, and native hosting

2009-12-29 Thread Martin Langhoff
2009/12/29 NoiseEHC noise...@freemail.hu:
 me. Another (optional) question is why did you left out gdb from the list?

All sorts of things run on the 3/4 xterms i use. valgrind, gdb,
python -m pdb, tail -f /path/to/log, ipython, ps_mem.py, psql, git
commands...

 All your code is perfect because you are a top-quality programmer who do not
 make mistakes because of emacs or what?

You seem to be reading things that I do not write. My code is not
perfect. I debug plenty with various mechanisms. There is no problem
here.

 like the endless suffering I had to
 enjoy while fixing some kernel bugs. What I am saying is that I *do not
 want* to develop without IDEs.

Ok, then that is *your personal preference*. Not The End of the World,
not the Betrayal Of The Children.

Bottom line: small-form-factor laptops are rather limited for full
blown TIDEs, mainly because of limited screen real state. XO is one of
them.

You like TIDEs, you might feel such small-form-factor laptops a bit
limiting. That applies to the XO and to a number of other netbooks.

Real men use tools that work well for the task at hand.

And we have plenty of those.



m
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 mar...@laptop.org -- School Server Architect
 - ask interesting questions
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Re: Android, OLPC, and native hosting

2009-12-29 Thread NoiseEHC



2009/12/29 NoiseEHC noise...@freemail.hu:
  

me. Another (optional) question is why did you left out gdb from the list?



All sorts of things run on the 3/4 xterms i use. valgrind, gdb,
python -m pdb, tail -f /path/to/log, ipython, ps_mem.py, psql, git
commands...
  


And if all those tools would be integrated into an IDE then it would be 
bad is not it? Or do you think that it is impossible to do?



All your code is perfect because you are a top-quality programmer who do not
make mistakes because of emacs or what?



You seem to be reading things that I do not write. My code is not
perfect. I debug plenty with various mechanisms. There is no problem
here.

  


Okay, next time I will write sarcasm/sarcasm tags.


like the endless suffering I had to
enjoy while fixing some kernel bugs. What I am saying is that I *do not
want* to develop without IDEs.



Ok, then that is *your personal preference*. Not The End of the World,
not the Betrayal Of The Children.
  


See, finally we are on the same page.
First, it can be the personal preferences of a lot of people but because 
you have excluded them you will never know. (And simply *that is my 
point*!!!).
Second, the End of the World, Betrayal Of The Children (I like this 
wording) argument was yours in that sarcasm Android kills children by 
not allowing to develop core applications on the XO /sarcasm thread. 
(BTW it was not yours personally, the *plural you* was intended here.)


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Re: Android, OLPC, and native hosting

2009-12-29 Thread david

On Tue, 29 Dec 2009, NoiseEHC wrote:




2009/12/29 NoiseEHC noise...@freemail.hu:


me. Another (optional) question is why did you left out gdb from the list?



All sorts of things run on the 3/4 xterms i use. valgrind, gdb,
python -m pdb, tail -f /path/to/log, ipython, ps_mem.py, psql, git
commands...



And if all those tools would be integrated into an IDE then it would be bad 
is not it? Or do you think that it is impossible to do?


to do this you would have to declare one specific variation of these tools 
as the 'One True Way' and eliminate all the others.


the advantage of a loosly coupled IDE is that one component can be 
replaced by something else without having to change/loose all the other 
things.


David Lang

All your code is perfect because you are a top-quality programmer who do 
not

make mistakes because of emacs or what?



You seem to be reading things that I do not write. My code is not
perfect. I debug plenty with various mechanisms. There is no problem
here.




Okay, next time I will write sarcasm/sarcasm tags.


like the endless suffering I had to
enjoy while fixing some kernel bugs. What I am saying is that I *do not
want* to develop without IDEs.



Ok, then that is *your personal preference*. Not The End of the World,
not the Betrayal Of The Children.



See, finally we are on the same page.
First, it can be the personal preferences of a lot of people but because you 
have excluded them you will never know. (And simply *that is my point*!!!).
Second, the End of the World, Betrayal Of The Children (I like this 
wording) argument was yours in that sarcasm Android kills children by not 
allowing to develop core applications on the XO /sarcasm thread. (BTW it 
was not yours personally, the *plural you* was intended here.)


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Re: Android, OLPC, and native hosting

2009-12-29 Thread Martin Langhoff
On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 7:15 PM,  da...@lang.hm wrote:
 the advantage of a loosly coupled IDE is that one component can be replaced
 by something else without having to change/loose all the other things.

Bingo! As soon as git was working, I switched fulltime to it (and
dragged my team with me ;-) ). When valgrind is of use, I use it. When
one of the weirdo PHP debuggers is needed, I use it.

If I need git (*), I am not going to sit here waiting for the Eclipse
developers to get a git integration going. I would lose about 4 years
of productive programming.

* - And trust me, we needed it. Anyone curious to ask can google for
my posts on the topic...

cheers,


m
-- 
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 mar...@laptop.org -- School Server Architect
 - ask interesting questions
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Re: Android, OLPC, and native hosting

2009-12-29 Thread NoiseEHC


to do this you would have to declare one specific variation of these 
tools as the 'One True Way' and eliminate all the others.


the advantage of a loosly coupled IDE is that one component can be 
replaced by something else without having to change/loose all the 
other things.

and

the advantage of a loosly coupled IDE is that one component can be replaced
by something else without having to change/loose all the other things.



Bingo! As soon as git was working, I switched fulltime to it (and
dragged my team with me ;-) ). When valgrind is of use, I use it. When
one of the weirdo PHP debuggers is needed, I use it.
  


You are wrong. The advantage of LIDE is that you do not have to create 
those TIDE components (like the one for git what you used for the 
example). You know writing all those integrated components takes a lot 
of time and requires GUI designer skills so usually no Open Source 
Software makes this last step (as the git people did not do it). So your 
mutual back patting fails because of the following (but it is not that 
interesting, just here for completeness):
1. Usually IDEs are modularized so there is no 'One True Way' just 
swappable components.
2. Even if you has to replace something (for example drop CVS for GIT) 
then you can just continue to use your IDE and only use the command line 
just for GIT.
3. The simple fact that you have to develop from the command line just 
shows how *pathetic* *the* *tooling* is in the OSS world, not that how 
powerful your LIDE is.


Now, as I said the above was not that interesting. What is interesting 
to me is this:
1. I have started the subthread by proposing that *maybe* it would be a 
good thing to use an operating system which has good tooling.
2. Somehow you managed to turn this thread into a quest against IDEs in 
general.
3. You use the fact that the tooling is just pathetic in the OSS world 
to show that it would be a bad thing to use an operating system which 
has good tooling.


Got it.




Wait!
Can it be that I missed something about this 3. item? Or this IDE thing 
is maybe the biggest Red Herring in this thread?





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Re: Android, OLPC, and native hosting

2009-12-29 Thread Benjamin M. Schwartz
NoiseEHC wrote:
 What you do 
 not want to recognize is that you are excluding a lot of developers who 
 do not want to waste their time because of the lack of IDEs.

We are trying to provide stepping stones.  One of those steps is the
Develop activity [1], which is a Sugar-oriented IDE for Activity
development.  Develop has been part of the Sugar plan from the very
beginning, with the first references in 2006 [2].  In my view, Develop is
by far the most important missing feature in Sugar.

I don't know much about Develop's current functionality, and I can't test
it this week.  I do think it's important that we get it working, polished,
and included by default.

--Ben

[1] http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Develop
[2] http://wiki.laptop.org/index.php?title=Old_Develop_activityoldid=18516



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Re: Android, OLPC, and native hosting

2009-12-28 Thread Martin Langhoff
On Sun, Dec 27, 2009 at 9:56 PM, John Gilmore g...@toad.com wrote:
             I would argue that an operating system that doesn't
 natively host its development tools is not appropriate for OLPC's
 target audience.

 Does the XO-1 host its own development tools?  I don't think anyone
 has ever rebuilt the system from source code on an XO-1.  I don't even
 know anyone outside the OLPC office who *has* the source code for an
 XO-1 software release.

Ahem! I call BS on that. I have rebuilt all sorts of parts of the
8.2.1 release, from publicly available SRPMs (I am not physically at
OLPC's offices, and I don't have access to hidden servers).

I will grant you that it might be a bit disorganized. I've had to
google around a few times -- some specific RPMs are in Koji for
example, and it's not always easy to find them unless you know they
are there (Google doesn't crawl Koji very deeply, probably a
reasonable defence against a crawler DoS). But all the source is out
there.

If there is something you are missining, ask about it, it might take
some digging but it'll be found. (With the exception of the libertas
firmware -- but that's a different battle altogether.)

Rebuilding all the component rpms on an XO is entirely possible given
some swap and an external disk.  Running an anaconda compose
(anaconda/rpm are big memory hogs) to make an installable jffs2 image
is also quite likely to succeed -- though there are a few kinks that
are not safe to take for granted.

cheers,


m
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Re: Android, OLPC, and native hosting

2009-12-28 Thread NoiseEHC

 Actually, no. The .class - .dex compiler consumes an enormous amount of
 memory, so it is out of the question at least for now.

 How much is enormous ?  A laptop/tablet is likely to have more than
 a smartphone...


With hundreds of classes in a .jar to convert it uses some 256M, with 
thousands it uses more than 1GB... (Likely it will be optimized in the 
future though.) Another problem is that those development tools use such 
native APIs which are not supported by the Android NDK (Native DevKit). 
So either those tools (like the java runtime or the make program) should 
be ported to the NDK (but why waste so much effort on this?) or the 
development environment should be installed in the system image. The 
latter one just wastes flash and probably opens up some nice security holes.

 However what I do not get is why would it be good for an education 
 project if it would be
 self hosting at all? As I see an education project's main goal is to
 support creating quality educational resources (like curricula) cheaply,
 is not it?

 You can't deny kids the ability to create their own activities 
 (applications, whatever)
 Pippy is an example of a simple way to introduce kids to activity 
 programming in
 python, allowing them to easily create and share activities.

You can still create applications with
http://code.google.com/p/android-scripting/

With the existing tools it is true that children cannot create the same 
quality applications what is possible with the Android SDK environment 
(even if we include a ported Etoys, TurtleArt and Karma), but they could 
create and share applications with the currently existing tools so what 
is the problem? The problem with self hosted activity development is the 
nonexistent development environment rather than the limited 
functionality. Even if the compilers will be ported to the Android NDK, 
Eclipse will never be ported so programming Android on the XO-3 (or 
XO-1.7) will be just as painful as programming Sugar with Pippy today. A 
much more simple solution would be just shipping a full fledged Linux PC 
to every school and let children log into it with VNC. So the ~3% of 
children who can become programmers would be able to develop the same 
applications (with Eclipse) what we can and the rest of the children 
would just use some simplified environment like scripting...


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Re: Android, OLPC, and native hosting

2009-12-28 Thread John Watlington

On Dec 28, 2009, at 8:54 AM, NoiseEHC wrote:

 You can still create applications with
 http://code.google.com/p/android-scripting/

 With the existing tools it is true that children cannot create the  
 same quality applications what is possible with the Android SDK  
 environment (even if we include a ported Etoys, TurtleArt and  
 Karma), but they could create and share applications with the  
 currently existing tools so what is the problem? The problem with  
 self hosted activity development is the nonexistent development  
 environment rather than the limited functionality. Even if the  
 compilers will be ported to the Android NDK, Eclipse will never be  
 ported so programming Android on the XO-3 (or XO-1.7) will be just  
 as painful as programming Sugar with Pippy today. A much more  
 simple solution would be just shipping a full fledged Linux PC to  
 every school and let children log into it with VNC.

Ahem.   With XO-1.5, I feel that I AM shipping a full-fledged Linux  
PC to every child.
Since when did it take more than a GB of RAM and 4GB of disk to host  
an IDE ?

My point still stands: until Android supports its own development  
tools, you are
turning it's users into second class citizens.

Cheers,
wad

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Re: Android, OLPC, and native hosting

2009-12-28 Thread John Watlington

I just installed Fedora Eclipse on an XO-1.5 and launched it
under Gnome.Granted, I ran into #9927 (/var/cache/yum too small)...

Cheers,
wad

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Re: Android, OLPC, and native hosting

2009-12-28 Thread C. Scott Ananian
On Mon, Dec 28, 2009 at 10:07 AM, John Watlington w...@laptop.org wrote:
 Ahem.   With XO-1.5, I feel that I AM shipping a full-fledged Linux
 PC to every child.
 Since when did it take more than a GB of RAM and 4GB of disk to host
 an IDE ?

I think that was Emacs 23.

j/k. ;-)
 --scott

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Re: Android, OLPC, and native hosting

2009-12-28 Thread Martin Langhoff
On Mon, Dec 28, 2009 at 7:25 PM, C. Scott Ananian csc...@laptop.org wrote:
 j/k. ;-)

emacs is what I am using on both XO-1 and XO-1.5 so pretty good going
;-) (Along with vim! Peace!)

Lots of people here want to claim we need Eclipse to have an IDE. Of
all the developers involved in the whole Linux
kernel+Fedora+Sugar+OLPC custom bits, the incidence of Eclipse usage
is  vanishingly small.

You don't need Eclipse to create this software stack, and it is
clearly not particularly desirable or ideal for most of the developers
that actually built it.

cheers,



m
-- 
 martin.langh...@gmail.com
 mar...@laptop.org -- School Server Architect
 - ask interesting questions
 - don't get distracted with shiny stuff  - working code first
 - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff
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Re: Android, OLPC, and native hosting

2009-12-28 Thread Paul Fox
martin wrote:
  On Mon, Dec 28, 2009 at 7:25 PM, C. Scott Ananian csc...@laptop.org wrote:
   j/k. ;-)
  
  emacs is what I am using on both XO-1 and XO-1.5 so pretty good going
  ;-) (Along with vim! Peace!)
  
  Lots of people here want to claim we need Eclipse to have an IDE. Of
  all the developers involved in the whole Linux
  kernel+Fedora+Sugar+OLPC custom bits, the incidence of Eclipse usage
  is  vanishingly small.
  
  You don't need Eclipse to create this software stack, and it is
  clearly not particularly desirable or ideal for most of the developers
  that actually built it.

sure.  but it's not the current developers that are at issue -- they're
almost by definition happy with the tools at hand.  (did i really
just say that?  where's my 3D data structure visualizer when i
need it??)  it's the ability of kids to explore and learn about
programming that we're talking about.  never having used
eclipse, i can't say its suitable.  but it has to be more
discoverable than vi, id-utils, and gdb.

paul
=-
 paul fox, p...@laptop.org
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Re: Android, OLPC, and native hosting

2009-12-28 Thread John Watlington

On Dec 28, 2009, at 1:53 PM, Paul Fox wrote:

 martin wrote:
 On Mon, Dec 28, 2009 at 7:25 PM, C. Scott Ananian  
 csc...@laptop.org wrote:
 j/k. ;-)

 emacs is what I am using on both XO-1 and XO-1.5 so pretty good going
 ;-) (Along with vim! Peace!)

 Lots of people here want to claim we need Eclipse to have an  
 IDE. Of
 all the developers involved in the whole Linux
 kernel+Fedora+Sugar+OLPC custom bits, the incidence of Eclipse usage
 is  vanishingly small.

 You don't need Eclipse to create this software stack, and it is
 clearly not particularly desirable or ideal for most of the  
 developers
 that actually built it.

 sure.  but it's not the current developers that are at issue --  
 they're
 almost by definition happy with the tools at hand.  (did i really
 just say that?  where's my 3D data structure visualizer when i
 need it??)  it's the ability of kids to explore and learn about
 programming that we're talking about.  never having used
 eclipse, i can't say its suitable.  but it has to be more
 discoverable than vi, id-utils, and gdb.

Exactly why I wanted to see if it could be installed and used.

Emacs forever ! (although it has gotten huge)
wad
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Re: Android, OLPC, and native hosting

2009-12-28 Thread Paul Fox
wad wrote:
  
  Emacs forever ! (although it has gotten huge)

hmm.  how's its Flash player?  :-)

=-
 paul fox, p...@laptop.org
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Re: Android, OLPC, and native hosting

2009-12-28 Thread John Gilmore
  Since when did it take more than a GB of RAM and 4GB of disk to host
  an IDE ?
 
 I think that was Emacs 23.

No, that was Eight Megs and Continuously Swapping.  I.e. in an
amazingly large and expensive Sun Workstation with 8 *megabytes* of
RAM, emacs would still make the system page-fault at a high rate.

Those young 2nd-graders just don't know what they're missing...  Why
in my day, we had to disassemble 6502 machine language just to peek
and poke the screen into high-resolution character graphics mode.
We had to put little pieces of tape over the holes in our punch-cards
to save paper.  Solar powered gigabyte WiFi Linux machines?  Our
school's calculators had neon NIXIE tube displays!

John
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Re: Android, OLPC, and native hosting

2009-12-28 Thread Neil Graham
On Mon, 2009-12-28 at 19:38 +0100, Martin Langhoff wrote:
 emacs is what I am using on both XO-1 and XO-1.5 so pretty good going
 ;-) (Along with vim! Peace!)
 
 Lots of people here want to claim we need Eclipse to have an IDE. Of
 all the developers involved in the whole Linux
 kernel+Fedora+Sugar+OLPC custom bits, the incidence of Eclipse usage
 is  vanishingly small.

I have tried to do the bulk of my development actually on an XO (well
until I got retina problems anyway, the screen gives me a bit of trouble
now). 

It may not be up to running behemoths like Eclipse, but I've considered
that to be Eclipse's problem more than the XO's.  

I do Pascal development mainly, Which suits the XO nicely for compile
times and execution speed.  On the XO I use MSEIDE which does a
reasonably good.  

See here for a demo of the IDE and easy project creation,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMtleAzJ3AE

That clip makes a new Window and buttons style program, and a new
animated game style program. 

That clip was not actually running on the XO, I run it on my Ubuntu box
for screen capture purposes.   To see the same system running on my XO
(recorded with a crappy camera), watch
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KD95e9G1SiQ

I did a Ludum Dare 48 hour game competition on the XO, Doing all
programming on the XO itself 
screenshot --
http://www.ludumdare.com/compo/wp-content/compo2/6952/20-shot0.jpg

So a good level of development is possible on the system,  I'm ok if the
operating system itself gets built on a more powerful system, but I'd
really prefer most applications that specifically target the XO be
developed on the XO hardware.  This I'd consider especially true for
sugar apps.  They should be developed in sugar, on an XO wherever
possible.  



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Re: Android, OLPC, and native hosting

2009-12-28 Thread NoiseEHC

 Ahem.   With XO-1.5, I feel that I AM shipping a full-fledged Linux 
 PC to every child.
 Since when did it take more than a GB of RAM and 4GB of disk to host 
 an IDE ?

 My point still stands: until Android supports its own development 
 tools, you are
 turning it's users into second class citizens.
Ahem. So you have installed Eclipse under Sugar and somehow developed 
and debugged a Sugar application what is nice... Wait! You did not!

So if we just ignore your Straw Man argument (you know what I have said 
that you need GBs or RAM to run the dx optimizer tool, not the IDE), the 
problem is still there that you only can run an usable development 
environment on a full Linux distro and you cannot even develop Sugar 
applications with it.

For the other people talking about IDEs: an usable IDE is not a text 
editor. The whole problem stems from the simple fact that you think that 
an IDE is just a text editor. While it is possible to develop 
applications even with ed (I used mcedit myself), I would rather poke my 
eyes out than to try to develop anything with Pippy again. What you do 
not want to recognize is that you are excluding a lot of developers who 
do not want to waste their time because of the lack of IDEs. In other 
words: because of resource constraints you have not made contributing 
code easy so you have resource constraints now.

ps:
And please stop this who started developing code in more painful 
environments race. I myself created several world records on the c64 
some 15+ years ago so I know exactly what was the norm at that time. But 
somehow I do not think that I can waste 10x the required time just 
because there were not more productive development environments existing 
then.

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Re: Android, OLPC, and native hosting

2009-12-28 Thread Bert Freudenberg
On 29.12.2009, at 01:47, NoiseEHC wrote:
 
 
 Ahem.   With XO-1.5, I feel that I AM shipping a full-fledged Linux 
 PC to every child.
 Since when did it take more than a GB of RAM and 4GB of disk to host 
 an IDE ?
 
 My point still stands: until Android supports its own development 
 tools, you are
 turning it's users into second class citizens.
 Ahem. So you have installed Eclipse under Sugar and somehow developed 
 and debugged a Sugar application what is nice... Wait! You did not!
 
 So if we just ignore your Straw Man argument (you know what I have said 
 that you need GBs or RAM to run the dx optimizer tool, not the IDE), the 
 problem is still there that you only can run an usable development 
 environment on a full Linux distro and you cannot even develop Sugar 
 applications with it.
 
 For the other people talking about IDEs: an usable IDE is not a text 
 editor. The whole problem stems from the simple fact that you think that 
 an IDE is just a text editor. While it is possible to develop 
 applications even with ed (I used mcedit myself), I would rather poke my 
 eyes out than to try to develop anything with Pippy again. What you do 
 not want to recognize is that you are excluding a lot of developers who 
 do not want to waste their time because of the lack of IDEs. In other 
 words: because of resource constraints you have not made contributing 
 code easy so you have resource constraints now.

Are you aware the XO ships a full Smalltalk IDE? You know, like VisualAge which 
later became Eclipse? It's hidden in the Etoys activity, but (surprise!) it's 
a kids laptop. The software is designed for learning. *That* is what Sugar was 
created for, which is not at all what Android was created for, as you claimed 
when starting this discussion.

- Bert -

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Re: Android, OLPC, and native hosting

2009-12-27 Thread John Gilmore
 I would argue that an operating system that doesn't
 natively host its development tools is not appropriate for OLPC's
 target audience.

Does the XO-1 host its own development tools?  I don't think anyone
has ever rebuilt the system from source code on an XO-1.  I don't even
know anyone outside the OLPC office who *has* the source code for an
XO-1 software release.  (At least Fedora and Ubuntu and Debian cut a
source release to match each of their binary releases, and hundreds
or thousands of people download it.)

Could the XO-1.5 host its own development tools?  More likely, but
again I don't think anyone ever has.  Perhaps someone rebuilt a few
packages from source, natively, while debugging.  Must have been
someone with great Internet access to download compilers and such, and
great knowledge of where to *find* the source code in the wilds of the
Internet.  Still that's a step forward.

Does Android not host its development tools because it doesn't run the
X Window System?  Since X already runs on most of the hardware that
Android does, that wouldn't be too hard to remedy -- and would benefit
the whole Android community.

John
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Re: Android, OLPC, and native hosting

2009-12-27 Thread Michael Stone
 Does the XO-1 host its own development tools?  

For all practical purposes, it does not.

First, as you have noted, it takes quite a bit of bandwidth to install the
toolchain and development headers. (And you have to know what they're called.)

Second, to get anything done with C, you really need easy access to the man
pages and you need to know quite a bit about how the system is put together.

Third, you quickly run out of disk space when you try to compile things
locally. I actually got as far as linking vmlinux before I ran out of space on
my on-XO kernel compile. (Nevermind how long it took to get that far with no
swap space! :)

 I don't think anyone has ever rebuilt the system from source code on an XO-1.
 I don't even know anyone outside the OLPC office who *has* the source code for
 an XO-1 software release.  

The source is available from Fedora CVS and from mock.laptop.org.

Michael
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Re: Android, OLPC, and native hosting

2009-12-27 Thread NoiseEHC

 Does Android not host its development tools because it doesn't run the
 X Window System?  Since X already runs on most of the hardware that
 Android does, that wouldn't be too hard to remedy -- and would benefit
 the whole Android community.
   
Actually, no. The .class - .dex compiler consumes an enormous amount of 
memory, so it is out of the question at least for now. However what I do 
not get is why would it be good for an education project if it would be 
self hosting at all? As I see an education project's main goal is to 
support creating quality educational resources (like curricula) cheaply, 
is not it?
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Re: Android, OLPC, and native hosting

2009-12-27 Thread John Watlington

On Dec 27, 2009, at 5:52 PM, NoiseEHC wrote:


 Does Android not host its development tools because it doesn't run  
 the
 X Window System?  Since X already runs on most of the hardware that
 Android does, that wouldn't be too hard to remedy -- and would  
 benefit
 the whole Android community.

 Actually, no. The .class - .dex compiler consumes an enormous  
 amount of
 memory, so it is out of the question at least for now.

How much is enormous ?  A laptop/tablet is likely to have more than
a smartphone...

 However what I do not get is why would it be good for an education  
 project if it would be
 self hosting at all? As I see an education project's main goal is to
 support creating quality educational resources (like curricula)  
 cheaply,
 is not it?

You can't deny kids the ability to create their own activities  
(applications, whatever)
Pippy is an example of a simple way to introduce kids to activity  
programming in
python, allowing them to easily create and share activities.

I wasn't really suggesting that mobile device users recompile their  
entire operating
system, although you can't deny that an XO-1.5 is well capable of  
doing so.

Cheers,
wad

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