Re: What to expect from developers, are there any left? (was Re: rotate button sucks on the XO)
NoiseEHC wrote: I do not even know where to look for log files to attach to a bug report. http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Reporting_bugs points you to http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Attaching_Sugar_logs_to_tickets 2. I can reliably (100%) trigger the cannot connect to WPA and the dialog asks for a password endlessly bug but unfortunately I do not know how to debug that thing. To tell you the truth I do not even know where to look for the code of NetworkManager I've seen useful output in /var/log/messages. -- =S Page ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: What to expect from developers, are there any left? (was Re: rotate button sucks on the XO)
On 02.03.2009, at 11:04, NoiseEHC wrote: Currently I am writing a nice activity which teaches kids what to do when alien spaceships attacks Earth and it will take some time to finish. That's great! But make sure the game prepares them adequately: http://www.theonion.com/content/video/are_violent_video_games - Bert - ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: What to expect from developers, are there any left? (was Re: rotate button sucks on the XO)
2009/3/2 NoiseEHC noise...@freemail.hu: Witch the recent disbanding of the development team I simply cannot see what will happen to the XO development. I mean that 8.2.1 will be released and 9.1.0 is dropped but what I do not understand is what will happen with all the development for 9.1.0? What I heard is that those will be pushed upstream (whatever that means) but it is not clear if reporting bugs or talking about button layouts on the game pad will result in a new software release or is just a waste of time. What I mean is that should I also subscribe to some Fedora devel list (note that I do not know sh*t about linux development, packaging or anything like that) to keep informed or what? It is unlikely that you (as a user, rather than a deployment) reporting bugs to OLPC will result in another software release *direct from OLPC* (such as 8.2.2), because development of 8.2.x is mostly discontinued and will really only be driven by deployments. Have you read? http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Future_releases It may not answer all your questions but it is the most concrete documentation that I have seen so far. In terms of reporting bugs, the process of upstreaming everything basically means that OLPC is no longer the distributor and that bugs should be reported directly to the people who are more responsible for the them. What would you do if you ran Ubuntu on your main computer but some of the buttons on your keyboard were not working correctly? You would file a bug with Ubuntu, who would hopefully either fix the problem on their own back, or help you to report the issue to the developers of the related package (which would likely be one of the X.org input components, in the case of keyboard troubles). The same applies here -- install a distro on your XO and report bugs to the distributor. I recommend Fedora through Chris's rawhide-xo builds, bugzilla.redhat.com, and the fedora-olpc list. Currently I am writing a nice activity which teaches kids what to do when alien spaceships attacks Earth and it will take some time to finish. What should I do next? Work with the relevant upstream component. In this case, you are working on a sugar activity, so develop it as a platform-neutral activity at sugarlabs.org, and work with sugarlabs' standard processes of getting activities included in distributions. Daniel ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: What to expect from developers, are there any left? (was Re: rotate button sucks on the XO)
Daniel Drake wrote: It is unlikely that you (as a user, rather than a deployment) reporting bugs to OLPC will result in another software release *direct from OLPC* (such as 8.2.2), because development of 8.2.x is mostly discontinued and will really only be driven by deployments. Have you read? http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Future_releases It may not answer all your questions but it is the most concrete documentation that I have seen so far. I have already read that page and was aware of those issues. Unfortunately it does not answer my questions. In terms of reporting bugs, the process of upstreaming everything basically means that OLPC is no longer the distributor and that bugs should be reported directly to the people who are more responsible for the them. My main problem is that knowing who is more responsible requires knowing linux more that I am comfortable with (I am a Windows developer). Here are just 3 examples to show my point: 1. Today I noticed that my simple program can crash the whole sugar desktop and the X server. Shall I report it to somewhere? I do not even know where to look for log files to attach to a bug report. Also if nobody will fix it (I cannot fix it that is sure...) then why should I care? Does it mean that if no deployment will bark that the desktopX can be crashed then it will not be fixed ever? 2. I can reliably (100%) trigger the cannot connect to WPA and the dialog asks for a password endlessly bug but unfortunately I do not know how to debug that thing. To tell you the truth I do not even know where to look for the code of NetworkManager (somebody told that this can be the problem) and even if I knew it usually I cannot compile downloaded linux code for some arcane reason beyond my understanding. So for example in this situation what should I do? Is this NetworkManager part of some linux distro, or is it an XO thing? If it is part of fedora, who should I report bugs to? 3. Okay, I have forgot the third one... :) Note that I am totally aware that these things are not your responsibility, I would just like to have some answers from somebody. If the solution is installing some distro then I will do it, the big question is that which one will be the official one? What would you do if you ran Ubuntu on your main computer but some of the buttons on your keyboard were not working correctly? You would file a bug with Ubuntu, who would hopefully either fix the problem on their own back, or help you to report the issue to the developers of the related package (which would likely be one of the X.org input components, in the case of keyboard troubles). Frankly, if some of my buttons would not work in Ubuntu I would simply format the machine and install Windows. :) Work with the relevant upstream component. In this case, you are working on a sugar activity, so develop it as a platform-neutral activity at sugarlabs.org, and work with sugarlabs' standard processes of getting activities included in distributions. This is not an activity in the strictest sense, it is more like a library which shows what the XO hardware can do in animation. After that probably I will use the lessons learned to optimize GCompris and PyGame because currently they look like Powerpoint presentations... So the whole point is to work fast on a physical XO hardware. Of course if somebody will tell me that the XO is a dead thing and OLPC will cease then I will reconsider wasting my time. ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: What to expect from developers, are there any left? (was Re: rotate button sucks on the XO)
On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 12:39 PM, NoiseEHC noise...@freemail.hu wrote: Daniel Drake wrote: It is unlikely that you (as a user, rather than a deployment) reporting bugs to OLPC will result in another software release *direct from OLPC* (such as 8.2.2), because development of 8.2.x is mostly discontinued and will really only be driven by deployments. Have you read? http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Future_releases It may not answer all your questions but it is the most concrete documentation that I have seen so far. I have already read that page and was aware of those issues. Unfortunately it does not answer my questions. In terms of reporting bugs, the process of upstreaming everything basically means that OLPC is no longer the distributor and that bugs should be reported directly to the people who are more responsible for the them. My main problem is that knowing who is more responsible requires knowing linux more that I am comfortable with (I am a Windows developer). Here are just 3 examples to show my point: 1. Today I noticed that my simple program can crash the whole sugar desktop and the X server. Shall I report it to somewhere? I do not even know where to look for log files to attach to a bug report. Also if nobody will fix it (I cannot fix it that is sure...) then why should I care? Does it mean that if no deployment will bark that the desktopX can be crashed then it will not be fixed ever? I don't know what your simple program does, but it sounds like it could be a Sugar bug. You should file a ticket at dev.sugarlabs.org. If it is not related to Sugar, we'll try to pass the report along to the proper place. Log files are viewable with the Log Viewer Activity and also found in ~/.sugar/default/logs 2. I can reliably (100%) trigger the cannot connect to WPA and the dialog asks for a password endlessly bug but unfortunately I do not know how to debug that thing. To tell you the truth I do not even know where to look for the code of NetworkManager (somebody told that this can be the problem) and even if I knew it usually I cannot compile downloaded linux code for some arcane reason beyond my understanding. So for example in this situation what should I do? Is this NetworkManager part of some linux distro, or is it an XO thing? If it is part of fedora, who should I report bugs to? It does sound like NM. Look at ~/.sugar/default/nm There is still an engineer at OLPC looking into WPA on the latest builds. 3. Okay, I have forgot the third one... :) Cannot help you here. Note that I am totally aware that these things are not your responsibility, I would just like to have some answers from somebody. If the solution is installing some distro then I will do it, the big question is that which one will be the official one? Both OLPC and the Sugar team is working closely with the Fedora. Sugar is working with other distros as well, but for the XO hardware in the short term, Fedora is the most stable. What would you do if you ran Ubuntu on your main computer but some of the buttons on your keyboard were not working correctly? You would file a bug with Ubuntu, who would hopefully either fix the problem on their own back, or help you to report the issue to the developers of the related package (which would likely be one of the X.org input components, in the case of keyboard troubles). Frankly, if some of my buttons would not work in Ubuntu I would simply format the machine and install Windows. :) Work with the relevant upstream component. In this case, you are working on a sugar activity, so develop it as a platform-neutral activity at sugarlabs.org, and work with sugarlabs' standard processes of getting activities included in distributions. This is not an activity in the strictest sense, it is more like a library which shows what the XO hardware can do in animation. After that probably I will use the lessons learned to optimize GCompris and PyGame because currently they look like Powerpoint presentations... So the whole point is to work fast on a physical XO hardware. Of course if somebody will tell me that the XO is a dead thing and OLPC will cease then I will reconsider wasting my time. Cannot comment on where OLPC is going re XO hardware. Sugar Labs will not cease. -walter -- Walter Bender Sugar Labs http://www.sugarlabs.org ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: What to expect from developers, are there any left? (was Re: rotate button sucks on the XO)
I don't know what your simple program does, but it sounds like it could be a Sugar bug. You should file a ticket at dev.sugarlabs.org. If it is not related to Sugar, we'll try to pass the report along to the proper place. http://dev.sugarlabs.org/ticket/465 It does sound like NM. Look at ~/.sugar/default/nm There is still an engineer at OLPC looking into WPA on the latest builds. Reported here, no answer: http://lists.laptop.org/pipermail/devel/2009-February/023504.html I just would like to know if testing is worthwhile or just wastes my time. Thanks anyway! ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: What to expect from developers, are there any left? (was Re: rotate button sucks on the XO)
2009/3/2 NoiseEHC noise...@freemail.hu: My main problem is that knowing who is more responsible requires knowing linux more that I am comfortable with (I am a Windows developer). Here are just 3 examples to show my point: 1. Today I noticed that my simple program can crash the whole sugar desktop and the X server. Shall I report it to somewhere? I do not even know where to look for log files to attach to a bug report. Also if nobody will fix it (I cannot fix it that is sure...) then why should I care? Does it mean that if no deployment will bark that the desktopX can be crashed then it will not be fixed ever? If in doubt, report it to your distribution. Just like you would on your main desktop. It doesn't matter if you don't know how to debug or diagnose. Your distribution should have channels to help you figure that out. I don't understand why you deduce that nobody will fix whatever problem you are running into. And yes, in terms of the now-halted OLPC OS distribution, it is unlikely that there will be further OLPC OS releases unless deployments specifically ask. It takes a lot of OLPC engineering and QA time, and OLPC now has very few resources on those fronts. If you are looking to be using a software platform that is evolving, then you have to switch away from one where development has stopped :) 2. I can reliably (100%) trigger the cannot connect to WPA and the dialog asks for a password endlessly bug but unfortunately I do not know how to debug that thing. To tell you the truth I do not even know where to look for the code of NetworkManager (somebody told that this can be the problem) and even if I knew it usually I cannot compile downloaded linux code for some arcane reason beyond my understanding. So for example in this situation what should I do? Is this NetworkManager part of some linux distro, or is it an XO thing? If it is part of fedora, who should I report bugs to? Yes, NetworkManager is a package included in different Linux distributions, such as Fedora. You should report this problem to your distribution and see where things go from there. There is probably a report already. Google will help you find the code for networkmanager. Note that wireless bugs are very hard to fix. Especially in our case, because theres a big black box (the firmware) which is the cause of many of these issues. Don't be demotivated from filing other bug reports if the wireless one does not move quickly... Note that I am totally aware that these things are not your responsibility, I would just like to have some answers from somebody. If the solution is installing some distro then I will do it, the big question is that which one will be the official one? I don't think there will be an official one - that will be up to the users and deployments. Fedora seems to be the one with the most traction at the moment. This is not an activity in the strictest sense, it is more like a library which shows what the XO hardware can do in animation. After that probably I will use the lessons learned to optimize GCompris and PyGame because currently they look like Powerpoint presentations... So the whole point is to work fast on a physical XO hardware. OK, then my suggestion is to develop it as a distro-independent upstream project (e.g. like NetworkManager), and then package it for your favourite distribution and encourage other distributions to follow along. This is exactly the same process for if you were developing software for any hardware platform. Daniel ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
