Re: [riot-devel] Switch to BSD?

2015-04-09 Thread Thomas C. Schmidt
Hi Emmanuel, all, forgot to reply on this: We at HAW are fine with keeping LGPL license. So no conflict from our side. Best, Thomas On 22.03.2015 14:02, Emmanuel Baccelli wrote: Dear all, thanks for the input from everyone on this topic. It is a tough case to decide, based on our long and

Re: [riot-devel] Switch to BSD?

2015-03-22 Thread Emmanuel Baccelli
Dear all, thanks for the input from everyone on this topic. It is a tough case to decide, based on our long and detailed exchanges on this subject. But it is probably time to conclude. At INRIA, we came up with the following observations: - there is no enthusiastic majority for a license change

Re: [riot-devel] Switch to BSD?

2015-03-22 Thread Pekka Nikander
Dear Emmanuel, all; Personally, I laud this decision. It appears reasonable and based on a well founded analysis. Congratulations, to the whole community! --Pekka On 2015–03–22, at 15:02 , Emmanuel Baccelli emmanuel.bacce...@inria.fr wrote: Dear all, thanks for the input from

Re: [riot-devel] Switch to BSD?

2015-03-02 Thread Kaspar Schleiser
Hey, On 02/25/2015 11:39 AM, Emmanuel Baccelli wrote: GPL with linking exception seems relevant in this discussion -- especially since eCOS, which is also a well-known embedded OS, uses this license. If we are thinking about amending an existing license, we could also try to ease the

Re: [riot-devel] Switch to BSD?

2015-02-24 Thread Oleg Hahm
Dear RIOTers, I just found the eCos license: [1] http://ecos.sourceware.org/license-overview.html It's basically a modified version of the GPL with linker exception. The interesting point: it is officially recognised as a GPL-compatible Free Software License:

Re: [riot-devel] Switch to BSD?

2015-02-24 Thread Matthias Waehlisch
Hi Oleg, On Wed, 25 Feb 2015, Oleg Hahm wrote: I thought that we already decided to exclude exotic licenses. Yes. GPL + Linker Exception is not exotic. but the name (or license branding). We had this discussion before. Rather unknown licenses need to be explained. Using eCos license

Re: [riot-devel] Switch to BSD?

2015-02-24 Thread Adam Hunt
I'd be willing to bet that GNU Classpath is one of the oldest projects licensed under the GPL with a linking exception. Classpath is distributed under the terms of the GNU General Public License with the following clarification and special exception. Linking this library statically or

Re: [riot-devel] Switch to BSD?

2015-02-24 Thread Oleg Hahm
Hi Matthias! I thought that we already decided to exclude exotic licenses. Yes. GPL + Linker Exception is not exotic. With respect to this specific license: (1) We cannot use the license because the license text is specific to eCos (e.g., eCos is distributed [...]). And original

Re: [riot-devel] Switch to BSD?

2015-02-24 Thread Matthias Waehlisch
Hi Oleg, I thought that we already decided to exclude exotic licenses. With respect to this specific license: (1) We cannot use the license because the license text is specific to eCos (e.g., eCos is distributed [...]). (2) We should not use the license because it is not approved by

Re: [riot-devel] Switch to BSD?

2014-12-18 Thread Kaspar Schleiser
On 12/16/2014 06:39 PM, Oleg Hahm wrote: arguably written less code in my free time). On the other hand, free software also means that this software might be used for any purpose - even to harm or kill people. LGPL (or any other discussed license) does not prevent this. Are you feeling

Re: [riot-devel] Switch to BSD?

2014-12-18 Thread Ludwig Ortmann
Hi, On Thu, Dec 18, 2014 at 01:46:52PM +0100, Kaspar Schleiser wrote: BSD changes the whole picture. It makes me feel exploited if I contribute a lot of ressources building free roads and others just invest a little but profit from the combination of all roads (even charging me) instead of

Re: [riot-devel] Switch to BSD?

2014-12-18 Thread Ludwig Ortmann
Hi, On Wed, Dec 17, 2014 at 01:06:24PM +0100, Kaspar Schleiser wrote: Hey, On 12/16/2014 06:09 PM, Ludwig Ortmann wrote: (L)GPL tries to put some restrictions on that. Mostly, the source code cannot realistically be sold as long it's (L)GPL. This is not correct (depending on your

Re: [riot-devel] Switch to BSD?

2014-12-18 Thread Kaspar Schleiser
Hey, On 12/18/2014 02:09 PM, Ludwig Ortmann wrote: Please explain without analogies and use concrete examples instead. We release RIOT under BSD. Company X takes the BSD'ed code and sells some infrastructure around that, but basically, they sell commercially supported RIOT under a non-free

Re: [riot-devel] Switch to BSD?

2014-12-18 Thread Kaspar Schleiser
Hey, On 12/18/2014 02:10 PM, Ludwig Ortmann wrote: (L)GPL tries to put some restrictions on that. Mostly, the source code cannot realistically be sold as long it's (L)GPL. This is not correct (depending on your definition of code and selling of course). I know that you know what my

Re: [riot-devel] Switch to BSD?

2014-12-18 Thread Ludwig Ortmann
Hi, On Thu, Dec 18, 2014 at 02:35:58PM +0100, Kaspar Schleiser wrote: On 12/18/2014 02:10 PM, Ludwig Ortmann wrote: (L)GPL tries to put some restrictions on that. Mostly, the source code cannot realistically be sold as long it's (L)GPL. This is not correct (depending on your definition of

Re: [riot-devel] Switch to BSD?

2014-12-17 Thread Kaspar Schleiser
Hey, On 12/16/2014 06:09 PM, Ludwig Ortmann wrote: (L)GPL tries to put some restrictions on that. Mostly, the source code cannot realistically be sold as long it's (L)GPL. This is not correct (depending on your definition of code and selling of course). I know that you know what my definition

Re: [riot-devel] Switch to BSD?

2014-12-17 Thread Emmanuel Baccelli
Hi Akshay, Thanks for your input on this topic. With the current license, are you able to plan using RIOT as a component for some of your company's products or services? Best, Emmanuel Le 4 déc. 2014 05:13, Akshay Mishra aks...@dspworks.in a écrit : This (migrating to a BSD license) should be

Re: [riot-devel] Switch to BSD?

2014-12-16 Thread Johann Fischer
Am Tue, 16 Dec 2014 12:44:57 +0100 schrieb Oleg Hahm oliver.h...@inria.fr: Hey Kaspar! If RIOT is BSD'ed, for *me* personally time spent on it is not fun time I like to in my unpaid spare time anymore, it becomes work that is also fun. Work others can (and will) sell under their terms.

Re: [riot-devel] Switch to BSD?

2014-12-16 Thread Matthias Waehlisch
On Tue, 16 Dec 2014, Johann Fischer wrote: If RIOT is BSD'ed, for *me* personally time spent on it is not fun time I like to in my unpaid spare time anymore, it becomes work that is also fun. Work others can (and will) sell under their terms. I totally don't get this point. How do

Re: [riot-devel] Switch to BSD?

2014-12-16 Thread Kaspar Schleiser
Hi, On 12/16/2014 12:44 PM, Oleg Hahm wrote: If RIOT is BSD'ed, for *me* personally time spent on it is not fun time I like to in my unpaid spare time anymore, it becomes work that is also fun. Work others can (and will) sell under their terms. I totally don't get this point. How do more

Re: [riot-devel] Switch to BSD?

2014-12-16 Thread Emmanuel Baccelli
Hi Kaspar, On Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 11:28 AM, Kaspar Schleiser kas...@schleiser.de wrote: As the man earning a shit load of money from one of these evil companies, using a proprietary smart phone, and buying Facebook goggles, working on RIOT for me is a very expensive hobby. I'm not sure I

Re: [riot-devel] Switch to BSD?

2014-12-16 Thread Emmanuel Baccelli
Hi Johann On Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 4:44 PM, Johann Fischer johann_fisc...@posteo.de wrote: Am Tue, 16 Dec 2014 15:45:02 +0100 schrieb Emmanuel Baccelli emmanuel.bacce...@inria.fr: Hi Emmanuel, I agree with Kaspar. Also as a company we have interests that if a competitor uses our work,

Re: [riot-devel] Switch to BSD?

2014-12-16 Thread Ludwig Ortmann
Hi, On Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 05:58:20PM +0100, Kaspar Schleiser wrote: On 12/16/2014 03:12 PM, Emmanuel Baccelli wrote: BSDing turns it into work I do for other companies, for free. I will probably not contribute much this way, unless I become one of the companies taking RIOT and

Re: [riot-devel] Switch to BSD?

2014-12-16 Thread Oleg Hahm
Hey Kaspar! IMHO this is not a oooh how nice, someone found a way to make money out of this! good for them! situation. It has the possiblity to become a Oh nice. Those contributers write code we can sell and they don't want anything in return situation. I think it is both. And I understand

Re: [riot-devel] Switch to BSD?

2014-12-16 Thread Oleg Hahm
Hi Ludwig! So in that case, you can't even (legally) sell a product based on RIOT without it (and you) being mentioned. Referring to a discussion I had with Hauke over lunch: would have RIOT to be mentioned only in the code or on the sold product (let's say an Internet connected toy dinosaur)?

Re: [riot-devel] Switch to BSD?

2014-12-16 Thread Ludwig Ortmann
Hi, On Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 06:42:37PM +0100, Oleg Hahm wrote: So in that case, you can't even (legally) sell a product based on RIOT without it (and you) being mentioned. Referring to a discussion I had with Hauke over lunch: would have RIOT to be mentioned only in the code or on the

Re: [riot-devel] Switch to BSD?

2014-12-15 Thread ROUSSEL Kévin
Hello everyone, Maybe was it already envisioned, but another strategy would be dual licensing, something akin to what FreeRTOS does for example. Using this scheme: * we got (L)GPL by default, for academic contributors and everyone that has nothing against open-source; * the same code can be

Re: [riot-devel] Switch to BSD?

2014-12-15 Thread Peter Kietzmann
Hi everyone, I'm sorry to hop in that late. To be honest, I didn't come to a final conclusion for myself, regarding the license-topic. Let me first say that I wouldn't boycott the change to BSD. Still I need to say that I have similar doubts like my previous speakers mentioned. One the one

Re: [riot-devel] Switch to BSD?

2014-12-15 Thread Kaspar Schleiser
Hey, On 12/15/2014 11:10 AM, Ludwig Ortmann wrote: I'd rather add a static linking exception to our current license (or switch to GPL with linking exception which amounts to the same as far as I remember) What kind of static linking exception do you have in mind? Kaspar

Re: [riot-devel] Switch to BSD?

2014-12-15 Thread Ludwig Ortmann
Hi, On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 01:08:24PM +0100, Kaspar Schleiser wrote: On 12/15/2014 11:10 AM, Ludwig Ortmann wrote: I'd rather add a static linking exception to our current license (or switch to GPL with linking exception which amounts to the same as far as I remember) What kind of static

Re: [riot-devel] Switch to BSD?

2014-12-15 Thread ROUSSEL Kévin
Hello again, As I said, I was just mentioning the possibility of dual-licensing. I never said it was the right thing to do, as I didn't really thought about it... The only thing I'm really afraid of are software patents, since these are visibly at the origin of many bad things (see the

Re: [riot-devel] Switch to BSD?

2014-12-15 Thread Kaspar Schleiser
Hey, On 12/15/2014 01:19 PM, Ludwig Ortmann wrote: On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 01:08:24PM +0100, Kaspar Schleiser wrote: On 12/15/2014 11:10 AM, Ludwig Ortmann wrote: I'd rather add a static linking exception to our current license (or switch to GPL with linking exception which amounts to the

Re: [riot-devel] Switch to BSD?

2014-12-15 Thread Kaspar Schleiser
Hey, On 12/03/2014 10:59 PM, Emmanuel Baccelli wrote: But in the first place, we would like to debate this topic. In particular: is anyone violently opposing the idea of migrating to a less restrictive license, such as BSD? If so, why? On the other hand, if you explicitly support the license

Re: [riot-devel] Switch to BSD?

2014-12-15 Thread Oleg Hahm
Hi! On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 01:08:24PM +0100, Kaspar Schleiser wrote: On 12/15/2014 11:10 AM, Ludwig Ortmann wrote: I'd rather add a static linking exception to our current license (or switch to GPL with linking exception which amounts to the same as far as I remember) What kind of

Re: [riot-devel] Switch to BSD?

2014-12-15 Thread Oleg Hahm
Hi Kaspar! 1. The entity distributing such a product must mention the use of RIOT. Isn't that the case also for some non-copyleft licenses (e.g. some BSD-style licenses)? Not sure, just asking. This requires the device to be field-upgradable I still seriously doubt this. We're talking about

Re: [riot-devel] Switch to BSD?

2014-12-15 Thread Martine Lenders
Hi, 2014-12-03 22:59 GMT+01:00 Emmanuel Baccelli emmanuel.bacce...@inria.fr: […] But in the first place, we would like to debate this topic. In particular: is anyone violently opposing the idea of migrating to a less restrictive license, such as BSD? If so, why? On the other hand, if you

Re: [riot-devel] Switch to BSD?

2014-12-15 Thread Thomas Eichinger
Dear all, On 15 Dec 2014, at 11:10, Ludwig Ortmann ludwig.ortm...@fu-berlin.de wrote: As for the general topic of relicensing: Personally speaking I’m rather pragmatic on this topic and either license is fine for me *but* I tend to advocate for MIT. ad contributing back”: Apart from

Re: [riot-devel] Switch to BSD?

2014-12-15 Thread Oleg Hahm
Hey Hauke! In an ideal world I would personally want RIOT to be even published under GPL, as of RIOT should be free. But we all know that world does not exist. I would say: In an ideal world RIOT should have been published as public domain. Cheers, Oleg -- panic(smp_callin()

Re: [riot-devel] Switch to BSD?

2014-12-15 Thread Adam Hunt
At risk of further confusing things maybe there's a happy medium between a strong copyleft/(L)GPL and a the BSD license. While I'm most certainly not a lawyer, copyright or otherwise, a quick look at the Eclipse Public License https://eclipse.org/org/documents/epl-v10.php (EPL) and the related

Re: [riot-devel] Switch to BSD?

2014-12-12 Thread Emmanuel Baccelli
Hi Johann, Le 12 déc. 2014 00:48, Johann Fischer johann_fisc...@posteo.de a écrit : Can you explain exactly what you expect of licence change? That more hardware will be supported? That RIOT will be more spread? The motivation for a more permissive license now is that the RIOT community has

Re: [riot-devel] Switch to BSD?

2014-12-12 Thread Emmanuel Baccelli
Hi Olaf, if both LGPL and other considered licenses are OK for you, then switch to RIOT right now ;) What is holding you back, more precisely? I would be interesting to know about it, it might bring some arguments to this debate. Best, Emmanuel Le 11 déc. 2014 18:28, Olaf Bergmann

Re: [riot-devel] Switch to BSD?

2014-12-11 Thread Johann Fischer
On Tue, 9 Dec 2014 16:31:00 +0100 Emmanuel Baccelli emmanuel.bacce...@inria.fr wrote: I agree with you: we need another Linux and not another Contiki. But two questions: (1) can we realistically mimic the Linux story and stay with LGPL? (2) why would RIOT necessarily become another Contiki if

Re: [riot-devel] Switch to BSD?

2014-12-10 Thread Carsten Bormann
Emmanuel Baccelli emmanuel.bacce...@inria.fr writes: Hi Carsten, on the topic of rewriting history ;) it would be interesting to know if you have an estimation of the proportion of RIOT code your people would have developed that would have been contributed back to the master branch, over

Re: [riot-devel] Switch to BSD?

2014-12-09 Thread Emmanuel Baccelli
Hi everyone, this is a gentle reminder to input your opinions on this thread before Wednesday night (i.e., tomorrow). Thanks, Emmanuel On Tue, Dec 9, 2014 at 12:43 AM, Carsten Bormann c...@tzi.org wrote: On 09 Dec 2014, at 00:09, Adam Hunt voxa...@gmail.com wrote: allow a potential license

Re: [riot-devel] Switch to BSD?

2014-12-09 Thread Kaspar Schleiser
Hey, On 12/09/2014 12:43 AM, Carsten Bormann wrote: allow a potential license change to be put off As long as relicensing hasn’t happened, RIOT stays in suspended animation for those of us who care about actual pickup in products. Waiting some more (a license change has been discussed for

Re: [riot-devel] Switch to BSD?

2014-12-09 Thread Matthias Waehlisch
Hi Adam, On Mon, 8 Dec 2014, Adam Hunt wrote: There's another option on the table that would allow a potential license change to be put off for some time while still being able to do it with minimal headache down the road. Any license change is obviously going to require all the past

Re: [riot-devel] Switch to BSD?

2014-12-09 Thread ROUSSEL Kévin
Hello, I'm not absolutely against licence switch but... I actually feel uneasy about about this kind of demands... If I understand right, some corporations which have probably contributed nothing to the project just barges in and said : if you want us to use your work, you have to let us

Re: [riot-devel] Switch to BSD?

2014-12-09 Thread Matthias Waehlisch
Hi Kevin, On Tue, 9 Dec 2014, ROUSSEL Kévin wrote: I'm not absolutely against licence switch but... I actually feel uneasy about about this kind of demands... If I understand right, some corporations which have probably contributed nothing to the project just barges in and said : if you

Re: [riot-devel] Switch to BSD?

2014-12-09 Thread René Kijewski
Am Tue, 9 Dec 2014 10:36:32 +0100 schrieb Emmanuel Baccelli emmanuel.bacce...@inria.fr: this is a gentle reminder to input your opinions on this thread before Wednesday night (i.e., tomorrow). You cannot use any of my contributions under any BSD license, because I don't think that it is a

Re: [riot-devel] Switch to BSD?

2014-12-09 Thread René Kijewski
Sorry Adam, I don't know how your name got intermixed into my answer. I had no intention to misquote you, and I like your previous letter very much. -- “My head was aching, and I had a singular feeling—altogether new to me—that some one else was trying to get alice’s configuration” —

Re: [riot-devel] Switch to BSD?

2014-12-08 Thread Adam Hunt
I entirely understand where Johann is coming from. My view are very similar; companies all over the world beat up on Linux in the early days because of the GPL but all these years later things have died down and multibillion dollar transnational corporations are not only still contributing to the

Re: [riot-devel] Switch to BSD?

2014-12-03 Thread Akshay Mishra
This (migrating to a BSD license) should be an awesome step, especially for small design companies like us. Thanks, Akshay On 4 December 2014 at 03:29, Emmanuel Baccelli emmanuel.bacce...@inria.fr wrote: Dear RIOTers, we have been receiving an increasing amount of negative feedback from