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Today's Topics:
1. Re: compiling or running recent snapshots with recent debian
Kaffe? (Henry Hemming)
2. Re: compiling or running recent snapshots with recent
debian Kaffe? (jigglypuff2 at freewwweb.com)
3. Should users have control over their own node's content? (Eric Ford)
4. Re: Should users have control over their own node's content? (nil)
5. Re: Masada interview? (Brandon)
6. Re: Forwaeding a message from freenet-chat (Brandon)
7. Re: Forwaeding a message from freenet-chat (Brandon)
8. Re: Meaningless hits on metadata (Brandon)
9. Re: Meaningless hits on metadata (Brandon)
10. Re: KHK Metadata Proposal (Brandon)
11. help please! (no name)
12. unscribe (terra degli arcani)
13. Suggestion for ease of use.. (Fredrik Hubinette)
14. Re: help please! (Oskar Sandberg)
15. Re: Forwaeding a message from freenet-chat (Benjamin Coates)
16. Re: A Metadata Filtering Proposal (Benjamin Coates)
17. RE: negative trust (Benjamin Coates)
18. Re: KHK Metadata Proposal (Scott G. Miller)
19. Re: Forwaeding a message from freenet-chat (Henry Hemming)
--__--__--
Message: 1
From: "Henry Hemming" <hemming_he...@hotmail.com>
To: freenet-dev at lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Freenet-dev] compiling or running recent snapshots with recent
debian
Kaffe?
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 04:47:13 CEST
Reply-To: freenet-dev at lists.sourceforge.net
>[ put here many lines of text ]
>/usr/include/kaffe/native.h
>/usr/bin
>/usr/bin/kaffe
>
>Since I didn't install Kaffe from source I can't comment. Does anyone
>have a coppy of the files that I can simply use in kaffe or is there a
>person who is actually using the debian version of Kaffe?
it doesnt have anything to do what files you get, but what code is in the
kaffe java distribution, maybe u shouldnt use a unstable version if you aint
prepared for problems like this?
--typo
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
--__--__--
Message: 2
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 21:29:37 +0000 (UTC)
From: <jigglyp...@jigglypuff.sourceforge.net>
To: freenet-dev at lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Freenet-dev] compiling or running recent snapshots with recent
debian Kaffe?
Reply-To: freenet-dev at lists.sourceforge.net
On Sat, 24 Jun 2000, Henry Hemming wrote:
> Envelope-to: jigglypuff at localhost
> Received: from jigglypuff ([127.0.0.1] helo=localhost)
> by jigglypuff with esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian))
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> From: "Henry Hemming" <hemming_henry at hotmail.com>
> To: freenet-dev at lists.sourceforge.net
> Subject: Re: [Freenet-dev] compiling or running recent snapshots with
> recent debian
> Kaffe?
> Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 04:47:13 CEST
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>
> >[ put here many lines of text ]
> >/usr/include/kaffe/native.h
> >/usr/bin
> >/usr/bin/kaffe
> >
> >Since I didn't install Kaffe from source I can't comment. Does anyone
> >have a coppy of the files that I can simply use in kaffe or is there a
> >person who is actually using the debian version of Kaffe?
>
> it doesnt have anything to do what files you get, but what code is in the
> kaffe java distribution, maybe u shouldnt use a unstable version if you aint
> prepared for problems like this?
>
> --typo
> ________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Freenet-dev mailing list
> Freenet-dev at lists.sourceforge.net
> http://lists.sourceforge.net/mailman/listinfo/freenet-dev
>
>
It just so happens that it's also the same version that is in frozen as
well. Also I can't find it in slink as far as I have looked.
--__--__--
Message: 3
To: Freenet-dev at lists.sourceforge.net
Reply-to: eford at princeton.edu
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 01:02:02 -0400
From: Eric Ford <ef...@eford.student.princeton.edu>
Subject: [Freenet-dev] Should users have control over their own node's content?
Reply-To: freenet-dev at lists.sourceforge.net
I cruised the mailing list tonight and thought I'd share my thoughts.
I'm not on the list, so please cc replies to me.
To zeroth order, there are two possibilties for the future of freenet:
1. Only a few people use it. Governments mostly ignore it. It doesn't
matter whether users can easily delete specific data or not.
2. Freenet catches on. Many people use it. Many people abuse it.
Governments don't like it and want to stop what they beleive to be
abuses. Let's say that you provide no utility to allow node
owners to easily remove certain content. Government tells node owner
to stop it. Node owner may shut down his node completely (not good
for free net), or the node owner may go to some trouble to remove
the content. But maybe under the current system the node owner
can say, "I can't help it. Deleteing just that would be too hard
for me." There's nothing to stop the government from saying, "Actually,
we've written this nice little program that will remove the offending
material from your node." Then the node owner loses his previous defense
and must either use the government's program (scary), figure out how to
delete it himself (work), shut down the node entirely (bad), or face
the consequences (rare, possiblely unfortunate). If freenet really
catches on, then this is almost inevitable.
Given those choices, I would prefer that there be a program that you
guys write and distribute the source code to. Once someone else
writes a closed source version, you guys will implement this feature.
And given you're going to write it, you might as well do it now.
Besides then you'll get some good PR for allowing node operators to
delete content they don't like.
Just my thoughts,
--
Eric Ford eford at princeton.edu
http://www.princeton.edu/~eford/ eford at mad.scientist.edu
--__--__--
Message: 4
To: freenet-dev at lists.sourceforge.net
From: nil <jigglypu...@pop3.smartworld.net>
Subject: Re: [Freenet-dev] Should users have control over their own node's
content?
Reply-To: jigglypuff2 at pop3.smartworld.net
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 05:53:45 GMT
Reply-To: freenet-dev at lists.sourceforge.net
At Saturday, 24 June 2000, you wrote:
>I cruised the mailing list tonight and thought I'd share my thoughts.
>I'm not on the list, so please cc replies to me.
>
>To zeroth order, there are two possibilties for the future of freenet:
>
>1. Only a few people use it. Governments mostly ignore it. It doesn't
>matter whether users can easily delete specific data or not.
>
>2. Freenet catches on. Many people use it. Many people abuse it.
>Governments don't like it and want to stop what they beleive to be
>abuses. Let's say that you provide no utility to allow node
>owners to easily remove certain content. Government tells node owner
>to stop it. Node owner may shut down his node completely (not good
>for free net), or the node owner may go to some trouble to remove
>the content. But maybe under the current system the node owner
>can say, "I can't help it. Deleteing just that would be too hard
>for me." There's nothing to stop the government from saying, "Actually,
>we've written this nice little program that will remove the offending
>material from your node." Then the node owner loses his previous
defense
>and must either use the government's program (scary), figure out how to
>delete it himself (work), shut down the node entirely (bad), or face
>the consequences (rare, possiblely unfortunate). If freenet really
>catches on, then this is almost inevitable.
>
>Given those choices, I would prefer that there be a program that you
>guys write and distribute the source code to. Once someone else
>writes a closed source version, you guys will implement this feature.
>And given you're going to write it, you might as well do it now.
>Besides then you'll get some good PR for allowing node operators to
>delete content they don't like.
>
>Just my thoughts,
>--
>Eric Ford eford at princeton.edu
>http://www.princeton.edu/~eford/ eford at mad.scientist.
edu
>
>_______________________________________________
>Freenet-dev mailing list
>Freenet-dev at lists.sourceforge.net
>http://lists.sourceforge.net/mailman/listinfo/freenet-dev
>
The problem with your idea is that from what I know about the goals
of freenet the whole idea is that supposedly if the freenet operators
are confronted they can plausably deny the fact that they may have
knowledge of any content at all.
Simply put I don't think that idealy you can actually tell what content
is on a particular node.
===================================================================
EASY and FREE access to your email anywhere: http://Mailreader.com/
===================================================================
--__--__--
Message: 5
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 00:55:16 -0500 (CDT)
From: Brandon <bl...@uts.cc.utexas.edu>
To: freenet-dev at lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Freenet-dev] Masada interview?
Reply-To: freenet-dev at lists.sourceforge.net
> I'm okay after 2, though towards 4:00 would be better.
My phone system at work is all messed up, so she got routed to the other
side of the building and I ended up talking to her at like 7:30 and she
didn't have IRC so I just talked to her for a while. She's a high school
student in a 10 day intensive journalism program. She was very nice and
said that the Time article painted Ian as a visionary. So I guess we're
moving up then!
--__--__--
Message: 6
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 01:00:47 -0500 (CDT)
From: Brandon <bl...@uts.cc.utexas.edu>
To: freenet-dev at lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Freenet-dev] Forwaeding a message from freenet-chat
Reply-To: freenet-dev at lists.sourceforge.net
> Of course because of the privacy and anonymity idea, those programs can not
> reside on a fixed server, but what if the code will fly across the network
> in a form of Java objects (something like applets, but not necessarily GUI
> objects). Pieces of code may be requested the same way as static documents.
> In its turn Java objects will request the data they need for processing the
> way a regular client would. Java libraries can be distributed just the same
> way as mp3 files.
This would be feasible if there was a sufficiently good sandbox to keep
the code in. Also, we're not strictly java, which would be a
problem. Somebody might come up with a sufficiently secure sandboxed
execution environment someday and then we could do this. Or, if you're not
feeling all that security minded, you could install this feature anyway. I
for one wouldn't want to be responsible, but it would be really cool and
fun to play with something like this in a trusted environment (like a
computer lab) where everyone knows everyone and there is no way for
foriegn code to get into the network. I'd love to play with this, but it's
not appropriate to Freenet where security is a huge concern and there's no
suitably secure sandbox. Eventually we're going to have to spin off an
insecure Freenet so that we can play with cool stuff like this. Becuase,
you know, it's just too neat.
--__--__--
Message: 7
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 01:04:09 -0500 (CDT)
From: Brandon <bl...@uts.cc.utexas.edu>
To: freenet-dev at lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Freenet-dev] Forwaeding a message from freenet-chat
Reply-To: freenet-dev at lists.sourceforge.net
> >How can you generate dynamic content when it is not being sent from
> >your own machine? I'm guessing you meant this to go with the first
> >thing, which makes it irrellevant. You seem to think that there is a
> >way to locate somebodies server on Freenet: there is not, only data
> >can be located.
> >
> >Note also that even were it possible, this would be a huge security
> >hole. Anything that sends the routing information and not the data
> >allows an attacker to home in and disable nodes where information is
> >stored, without in effect spreading it elsewhere.
I've been thinking about this and I think it might be alright in some
cases to have something like this where you can somehow discover a path to
a node which offers a particular service (such as serving web pages) and
once you find a path you can then communicate with it. Something like this
would be necessary in order to serve out-of-band information through
Freenet. So that you could do e-mail, web, newsgroups, etc., using the
anonymity and possibly the caching that Freenet provides. But that's a
long ways off. But it will be a very interesting thing to discuss after
we've got the first generation feature complete Freenet out.
--__--__--
Message: 8
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 01:08:09 -0500 (CDT)
From: Brandon <bl...@uts.cc.utexas.edu>
To: freenet-dev at lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Freenet-dev] Meaningless hits on metadata
Reply-To: freenet-dev at lists.sourceforge.net
> > But then how do you determine which metadata entries to expire and which
> > to keep? You can't keep them all because you'd run out of room.
> >
> That's up for debate - I mean, say one piece of metadata is 300bytes on
> average,
> and say I devote half a gig to metadata. Thats a helluva lot of metadata
> (1,789,570 entries).
But my metadata spam bot can insert 100 per second. That will take about a
week to fill up. Of course you are but one of many nodes so it would take
longer than a week, but not too terribly long.
--__--__--
Message: 9
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 01:09:24 -0500 (CDT)
From: Brandon <bl...@uts.cc.utexas.edu>
To: freenet-dev at lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Freenet-dev] Meaningless hits on metadata
Reply-To: freenet-dev at lists.sourceforge.net
> > Of course the way it's looking now, we're going to be able to actually
> > encrypt the metadata, too. Even so, they'll be routed differently so nodes
>
> Er, which type of metadata can we encrypt? I know we can encrypt private
> metadata routed attached to the document.
Well yeah but that's not relevant because we can't search that. I'm just
talking about the searchable metadata.
We were thinking that with your search method you could encrypt all
metadata by the search term.
--__--__--
Message: 10
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 01:14:05 -0500 (CDT)
From: Brandon <bl...@uts.cc.utexas.edu>
To: freenet-dev at lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Freenet-dev] KHK Metadata Proposal
Reply-To: freenet-dev at lists.sourceforge.net
> Neither do I. But returning a list of KHKs is bad too, because that means
> the server had to have been storing those as plain text. Or the search
> mechanism has to allow for a secret known only by the searcher that
> encrypts all the metadata. And I can't think of a manner in which this
> would work. Unless your using Alex's same-cardinality search method, in
> which case they could be encrypted by the plaintext search terms (in
> sorted order).
Ah, okay, I am less tired now so here is my idea on this.
All metadata is encrypted by the search key if we use Alex's searching,
which I'm just going to assume for now that we are.
The metadata has a field which contains the KHK for that piece of
metadata.
The metadata is insert both by the search terms and under a KHK and is
encryped in that case by the KHK.
You could of course put a KHK into the metadata that pointed to something
other than said metadata but this would be pointless as far as I can tell.
--__--__--
Message: 11
From: "no name" <niss...@hotmail.com>
To: freenet-dev at lists.sourceforge.net
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 09:57:47 GMT
Subject: [Freenet-dev] help please!
Reply-To: freenet-dev at lists.sourceforge.net
Hi,
I have just down loaded your program and I cant seem to get it to open. I
saved it to desk top and along with the freenet software i also downloaded
the java software. I even unzipped both downloads and when i click on any of
the folders in them it asks you to choose which program to use to open the
program, and Im not quite sure which to open it in. I tried it in explorer
and it doesnt work. Im very anxious to begin using your software, so please
help me. Thank you.
sincerely,
nissa
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
--__--__--
Message: 12
From: "terra degli arcani" <giochidru...@ciaoweb.it>
To: <Freenet-dev at lists.sourceforge.net>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 12:32:24 +0200
boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000F_01BFDDD8.4024EF20"
Subject: [Freenet-dev] unscribe
Reply-To: freenet-dev at lists.sourceforge.net
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--__--__--
Message: 13
To: freenet-dev at lists.sourceforge.net
From: Fredrik Hubinette <hu...@hubbe.net>
Date: 24 Jun 2000 03:34:36 -0700
Subject: [Freenet-dev] Suggestion for ease of use..
Reply-To: freenet-dev at lists.sourceforge.net
Would it the following recommendations be 'a good thing' or not?
1) Encourage people to setup a CNAME or A record called
freenet.yourdomain.yourtopdomain and run the freenet node
on the default port. For people who are too lazy to run their
own node, this could point to someone elses node..
2) Encourage freenet clients use "freenet:19114" as a default
node if no node is specified and no node answers on
"localhost:19114".
The above should allow freenet clients to find the closes node without
searching or any per-user configuration. (Well, there is *some* searching,
but the domain name searching mechanism should take care of it...)
It won't help for people with incompetent or nonexistand sysadmins though. :)
The above is anologous with www.yourdomain, ftp.yourdomain, mail.yourdomain,
etc. which seems to be the de-facto standard on the internet and should
make it easier for end-users to access freenet. It is also completely
decentralized, so it should not create any new weaknesses in the node
network.
Or is there another solution to this problem that I am not aware of?
/Hubbe
--__--__--
Message: 14
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 13:00:29 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Oskar Sandberg <md98-...@nada.kth.se>
To: freenet-dev at lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Freenet-dev] help please!
Reply-To: freenet-dev at lists.sourceforge.net
Ah, you forgot to hold down ctrl, alt, and delete while you click on
the Freenet program.
Happy clicking!
Oskar Sandberg
md98-osa at nada.kth.se
On Sat, 24 Jun 2000, no name wrote:
> Hi,
> I have just down loaded your program and I cant seem to get it to open. I
> saved it to desk top and along with the freenet software i also downloaded
> the java software. I even unzipped both downloads and when i click on any of
> the folders in them it asks you to choose which program to use to open the
> program, and Im not quite sure which to open it in. I tried it in explorer
> and it doesnt work. Im very anxious to begin using your software, so please
> help me. Thank you.
> sincerely,
> nissa
> ________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Freenet-dev mailing list
> Freenet-dev at lists.sourceforge.net
> http://lists.sourceforge.net/mailman/listinfo/freenet-dev
>
--__--__--
Message: 15
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 11:34:29 -0400
From: Benjamin Coates <coa...@mailandnews.com>
To: freenet-dev at lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Freenet-dev] Forwaeding a message from freenet-chat
Reply-To: freenet-dev at lists.sourceforge.net
I just got a new mail client, and I accidentally replied to a couple of
messages privately rather than to the list. Appologies to the people who will
see this twice...
===== Original Message From Benjamin Coates <Coates at MailAndNews.com> =====
> From "Andrus Adamchik" <wostuff at hotmail.com>
>Of course because of the privacy and anonymity idea, those programs can not
>reside on a fixed server, but what if the code will fly across the network
>in a form of Java objects (something like applets, but not necessarily GUI
>objects). Pieces of code may be requested the same way as static documents.
>In its turn Java objects will request the data they need for processing the
>way a regular client would. Java libraries can be distributed just the same
>way as mp3 files.
This would almost work in today's Freenet if someone wrote the client. You'd
need updatable keys for it to be very useful, as well as a www browser altered
to access Freenet, and the browser JRE would need some tweaking as well...
>Disclaimer: Yes, I know, this will lead to creation of "freE-commerce",
>police bots in the network, etc. But still, there should be a way... an
>ability to run a program is also a free speech issue.
>Andrus
Since the code wouldn't run "in the network" but in the client such things
wouldn't really be very practical. Since everything could be downloaded and
examined up-close, it would be quite difficult to write code to enforce
something that couldn't be trivially circumvented.
--
Benjamin Coates
--__--__--
Message: 16
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 11:36:15 -0400
From: Benjamin Coates <coa...@mailandnews.com>
To: freenet-dev at lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Freenet-dev] A Metadata Filtering Proposal
Reply-To: freenet-dev at lists.sourceforge.net
>===== Original Message From Brandon <blanu at uts.cc.utexas.edu> =====
>This was very nice. It seems to me to be basically my proposal plus Alex's
>rating extension - fuzziness. Which is fine. I'm glad you were able to
>articulate it so nicely. I'm just saying so because I only have time to
>skim proposals these days and if it was in some way a counter-proposal
>rather than a synthesis then you should say so because I missed that part.
>
>Also, I think I'm pro-fuzziness, but that we should do a boolean system
>first and then add fuzziness because it's more of a complicating add-on
>than an actual change in the underlying structure of how things work. And
>such things should be added on after the initial simpler system is
>working.
>
Well, I'm not really sure how fuzziness works, but it doesn't seem to be
terribly fuzzy to me. Basically, everything is either shown if someone you
know trusts the author, or not.
It's somewhat simpler than Alex's proposal in that extent because there are no
levels of trust, and therefore no math to do regarding how much to trust
someone who is trusted 0.8 by someone you trust 0.7, etc.
--
Benjamin Coates
--__--__--
Message: 17
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 11:37:44 -0400
From: Benjamin Coates <coa...@mailandnews.com>
To: freenet-dev at lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: RE: [Freenet-dev] negative trust
Reply-To: freenet-dev at lists.sourceforge.net
>===== Original Message From "Henry Hemming" <hemming_henry at hotmail.com>
>=====
>Comment on http://scf.usc.edu/~coates/freenet/proposal.html
>
>there will have to be a negative trust list kept localy atleast, or
>otherwise there might appear some problems with one bad-guy destroying a
>huge net of trust. Assume someone who has been posting on the freenet and
>appears in many ppls white-list would suddenly post a bad document, because
>he appears in many ppls white-list in the same trust-net practicaly everyone
>will route to him trough a few white-lists, so the only way for a client to
>mark him bad is either to remove all entries from the local white-list that
>lead to the bad-guy, or simply mark the bad-guy as a bad-guy. Here, is the
>fella is popular he might be found trough all entries in someones
>white-list, after a rather short depth.
>
>--typo
That's a concern, but a local negative-trust list won't stop it. Here's an
example:
B trusts C.
C trusts D.
D stops being trustworthy, and starts spamming.
B puts D on a negative-trust list to stop the spam.
(time passes)
A begins trusting B.
A gets a bunch of D's spam.
The only solution I can think of is for either C to stop trusting D or B to
stop trusting C.
Either way, though, it makes spamming much more difficult.
--
Benjamin Coates
--__--__--
Message: 18
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 10:45:10 -0500
To: freenet-dev at lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Freenet-dev] KHK Metadata Proposal
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From: "Scott G. Miller" <scgmi...@indiana.edu>
Reply-To: freenet-dev at lists.sourceforge.net
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>=20
> Ah, okay, I am less tired now so here is my idea on this.
>=20
> All metadata is encrypted by the search key if we use Alex's searching,
> which I'm just going to assume for now that we are.
>=20
> The metadata has a field which contains the KHK for that piece of
> metadata.
>=20
> The metadata is insert both by the search terms and under a KHK and is
> encryped in that case by the KHK.
>=20
> You could of course put a KHK into the metadata that pointed to something
> other than said metadata but this would be pointless as far as I can tell.
>=20
Honestly I don't see the point of having a KHK involved in this. It
allows for collisions, which is kind of silly. Why not just have a
descriptive, non-key name in the metadata. Then the client can bookmark
the CHKs and SVKs it points to under that name.
--1ccMZA6j1vT5UqiK
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Message: 19
From: "Henry Hemming" <hemming_he...@hotmail.com>
To: freenet-dev at lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Freenet-dev] Forwaeding a message from freenet-chat
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 17:48:22 CEST
Reply-To: freenet-dev at lists.sourceforge.net
What if there could be live java objects on the network, not ones that would
be downloaded, but ones that could forexample server as a dynamic web
server. Ofcourse this would create the security problem of someone else
having control over ones web-server, but with some nasty crypto should this
be possible to solve?
Easiest way I can think this could be solved to some extent is for a client
to contact multiple hosts, and have them send a one way hash value on the
data they are about to send, and if they dont match then refuse to accept
the data. Also game servers could be run over freenet in this fashion.
--typo
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