Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-20 Thread psychoticRabbit via Digitalmars-d
On Friday, 9 February 2018 at 07:54:49 UTC, Suliman wrote: I like D, but sometimes it's look like for me too complicated. Go have a lot of fans even it not simple, but primitive. But some D futures make it very hard to learning. Small list by me: 1. mixins 2. inout 3. too many attributes

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-17 Thread Laeeth Isharc via Digitalmars-d
On Friday, 9 February 2018 at 19:01:30 UTC, H. S. Teoh wrote: If somebody *paid* me to work on dub, then perhaps I will. But right now, my level of motivation and interest in doing so is pretty low, and is on the losing side of the competition against the myriad other projects that I could

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-15 Thread Timon Gehr via Digitalmars-d
On 15.02.2018 21:38, Walter Bright wrote: On 2/10/2018 4:35 AM, Timon Gehr wrote: In summary, the issue is that there is only one 'inout' and therefore it is not properly lexically scoped. It is a bit like having a language where all variables are implicit function parameters and they all

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-15 Thread Walter Bright via Digitalmars-d
On 2/10/2018 4:35 AM, Timon Gehr wrote: In summary, the issue is that there is only one 'inout' and therefore it is not properly lexically scoped. It is a bit like having a language where all variables are implicit function parameters and they all have the same, global, name. This sort of

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-15 Thread Tony via Digitalmars-d
On Friday, 9 February 2018 at 19:19:03 UTC, H. S. Teoh wrote: But none of these features are *necessary* to start coding in D. They are optional extras that are nice once you're comfortable with the language. I got by fine for *years* without even using a single mixin, or knowing what 'inout'

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-13 Thread bauss via Digitalmars-d
On Tuesday, 13 February 2018 at 11:36:50 UTC, Andre Pany wrote: On Tuesday, 13 February 2018 at 11:14:25 UTC, rikki cattermole wrote: On 13/02/2018 11:11 AM, Russel Winder wrote: On Tue, 2018-02-13 at 10:45 +, aberba via Digitalmars-d wrote: […] I wish complaints about Dub would

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-13 Thread Andre Pany via Digitalmars-d
On Tuesday, 13 February 2018 at 11:14:25 UTC, rikki cattermole wrote: On 13/02/2018 11:11 AM, Russel Winder wrote: On Tue, 2018-02-13 at 10:45 +, aberba via Digitalmars-d wrote: […] I wish complaints about Dub would include exactly what was impossible with it. There's no reason to throw

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-13 Thread rikki cattermole via Digitalmars-d
On 13/02/2018 11:11 AM, Russel Winder wrote: On Tue, 2018-02-13 at 10:45 +, aberba via Digitalmars-d wrote: […] I wish complaints about Dub would include exactly what was impossible with it. There's no reason to throw dub away and start something new. If one can run cmake before build in

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-13 Thread Russel Winder via Digitalmars-d
On Tue, 2018-02-13 at 10:45 +, aberba via Digitalmars-d wrote: > […] > I wish complaints about Dub would include exactly what was > impossible with it. There's no reason to throw dub away and start > something new. If one can run cmake before build in dub, then a > lot is possible. Those

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-13 Thread rikki cattermole via Digitalmars-d
On 13/02/2018 10:45 AM, aberba wrote: On Sunday, 11 February 2018 at 11:47:25 UTC, rikki cattermole wrote: snip Will it result in binaries that are decent? Probably not for most use cases. Can you file a bug report on this? Nah this should remain out of scope. If binary (from e.g. cmake)

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-13 Thread aberba via Digitalmars-d
On Sunday, 11 February 2018 at 11:47:25 UTC, rikki cattermole wrote: On 11/02/2018 11:40 AM, Jonathan M Davis wrote: On Sunday, February 11, 2018 11:26:30 rikki cattermole via Digitalmars-d wrote: On 11/02/2018 11:18 AM, Russel Winder wrote: Clearly though there is a problem with Dub as a

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-12 Thread Jacob Carlborg via Digitalmars-d
On 2018-02-09 08:54, Suliman wrote: I like D, but sometimes it's look like for me too complicated. Go have a lot of fans even it not simple, but primitive. But some D futures make it very hard to learning. Small list by me: 1. mixins 2. inout 3. too many attributes like: @safe @system @nogc etc

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-12 Thread Russel Winder via Digitalmars-d
On Sun, 2018-02-11 at 19:31 -0700, Jonathan M Davis via Digitalmars-d wrote: > […] > On that note, I feel that I really should thank Sonke and those few > that > have helped him write dub. As much as I think that some aspects of > dub need > to be redesigned, at least they actually went and did

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-11 Thread Nick Sabalausky (Abscissa) via Digitalmars-d
On 02/11/2018 09:01 PM, Jonathan M Davis wrote: On Sunday, February 11, 2018 20:30:19 Nick Sabalausky via Digitalmars-d wrote: The langauge-based package managers just simply need to keep "buildsystem" OUT of the package manager's scope. That's all. THAT is why system-level packages can be

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-11 Thread Pjotr Prins via Digitalmars-d
On Monday, 12 February 2018 at 02:31:38 UTC, Jonathan M Davis wrote: On Sunday, February 11, 2018 19:01:09 Jonathan M Davis via Digitalmars-d wrote: As with too much around here, a big part of the issue is ultimately man power. Even if we could all agree on exactly how D's build and package

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-11 Thread Nick Sabalausky (Abscissa) via Digitalmars-d
On 02/10/2018 07:35 AM, Timon Gehr wrote: TL;DR: Parametrically polymorphic functions have /runtime/ type parameters. inout can be interpreted as a dependent function of type "{type y | y.among(x, const(x), immutable(x)) } delegate(type x)" and an inout function can be thought of as a

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-11 Thread Jonathan M Davis via Digitalmars-d
On Sunday, February 11, 2018 19:01:09 Jonathan M Davis via Digitalmars-d wrote: > As with too much around here, a big part of the issue is ultimately man > power. Even if we could all agree on exactly how D's build and package > management situation should be solved, actually get the work done is

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-11 Thread Jonathan M Davis via Digitalmars-d
On Sunday, February 11, 2018 20:30:19 Nick Sabalausky via Digitalmars-d wrote: > The langauge-based package managers just simply need to keep > "buildsystem" OUT of the package manager's scope. That's all. THAT is > why system-level packages can be built with whatever tool: because the > one

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-11 Thread Adam D. Ruppe via Digitalmars-d
On Monday, 12 February 2018 at 01:45:42 UTC, Nick Sabalausky (Abscissa) wrote: But if you're putting out a D lib, you can't do that because people expect a lib to be part of a package system (for good reason). Yeah, this drives me nuts too. Most "bugs" I hear are just dub being weird (like

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-11 Thread Nick Sabalausky (Abscissa) via Digitalmars-d
On 02/11/2018 06:47 AM, rikki cattermole wrote: Dub can do everything that you have described. No it can't. Not if you value your time and sanity. You are fully free to run cmake if you wish before the build. Will it result in binaries that are decent? Probably not for most use cases. I

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-11 Thread Nick Sabalausky (Abscissa) via Digitalmars-d
On 02/11/2018 06:18 AM, Russel Winder wrote: Clearly though there is a problem with Dub as a build system for many of it's users – or rather people who try and reject. The problem isn't just "dub as a buildsystem". The other equally big problem here is that "dub as a package manager" pretty

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-11 Thread Nick Sabalausky (Abscissa) via Digitalmars-d
On 02/11/2018 01:54 AM, Pjotr Prins wrote: Dub is getting some flak here. This is unsurprising because it is really hard to write a good package manager and build system. I use a lot of languages and not one has a satisfactory package manager. Mostly they try to do too much and get in the way

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-11 Thread rikki cattermole via Digitalmars-d
On 11/02/2018 11:40 AM, Jonathan M Davis wrote: On Sunday, February 11, 2018 11:26:30 rikki cattermole via Digitalmars-d wrote: On 11/02/2018 11:18 AM, Russel Winder wrote: Clearly though there is a problem with Dub as a build system for many of it's users – or rather people who try and

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-11 Thread Jonathan M Davis via Digitalmars-d
On Sunday, February 11, 2018 11:26:30 rikki cattermole via Digitalmars-d wrote: > On 11/02/2018 11:18 AM, Russel Winder wrote: > > Clearly though there is a problem with Dub as a build system for many > > of it's users – or rather people who try and reject. > > Put simply, they expect far too

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-11 Thread rikki cattermole via Digitalmars-d
On 11/02/2018 11:18 AM, Russel Winder wrote: On Sun, 2018-02-11 at 10:59 +, rikki cattermole via Digitalmars-d wrote: […] I was working on my own build system with dependency management when dub was created. I stopped after dub was first released because it meet my every need for a D

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-11 Thread Russel Winder via Digitalmars-d
On Sun, 2018-02-11 at 10:59 +, rikki cattermole via Digitalmars-d wrote: > […] > I was working on my own build system with dependency management when > dub > was created. I stopped after dub was first released because it meet > my > every need for a D build manager. Hopefully it still

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-11 Thread Walter Bright via Digitalmars-d
On 2/9/2018 11:13 AM, Manu wrote: 1. Storage class as a concept separate to the type; void test() { int x; static int y; typeof(x) != typeof(y) ??? }

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-11 Thread rikki cattermole via Digitalmars-d
On 11/02/2018 10:54 AM, Russel Winder wrote: On Fri, 2018-02-09 at 17:20 -0500, Nick Sabalausky (Abscissa) via Digitalmars-d wrote: […] Been there, done that, put enormous work into it, a TON of arguing to little avail, found the code architecture difficult to work with, and ultimately my

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-11 Thread Russel Winder via Digitalmars-d
On Fri, 2018-02-09 at 17:20 -0500, Nick Sabalausky (Abscissa) via Digitalmars-d wrote: > […] > Been there, done that, put enormous work into it, a TON of arguing > to > little avail, found the code architecture difficult to work with, > and > ultimately my merged PRs barely made a dent at

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-11 Thread Nicholas Wilson via Digitalmars-d
On Saturday, 10 February 2018 at 20:50:37 UTC, Jon Degenhardt wrote: On Friday, 9 February 2018 at 07:54:49 UTC, Suliman wrote: Which language futures by your opinion make D harder? * Static arrays aren't not ranges. I continually forget to slice them when I want to use them as ranges. The

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-10 Thread Pjotr Prins via Digitalmars-d
Dub is getting some flak here. This is unsurprising because it is really hard to write a good package manager and build system. I use a lot of languages and not one has a satisfactory package manager. Mostly they try to do too much and get in the way or they do too little and people complain

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-10 Thread Arun Chandrasekaran via Digitalmars-d
On Friday, 9 February 2018 at 07:54:49 UTC, Suliman wrote: I like D, but sometimes it's look like for me too complicated. Go have a lot of fans even it not simple, but primitive. But some D futures make it very hard to learning. Small list by me: 1. mixins 2. inout 3. too many attributes

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-10 Thread Jonathan M Davis via Digitalmars-d
On Saturday, February 10, 2018 20:57:44 John Gabriele via Digitalmars-d wrote: > On Saturday, 10 February 2018 at 20:55:00 UTC, John Gabriele > > wrote: > > {snip} It's not niche at all, it just doesn't have hoards of > > users. D is well-positioned to be hugely popular, but I think > > to

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-10 Thread John Gabriele via Digitalmars-d
On Saturday, 10 February 2018 at 20:55:00 UTC, John Gabriele wrote: {snip} It's not niche at all, it just doesn't have hoards of users. D is well-positioned to be hugely popular, but I think to succeed its leadership needs to be willing to fix things they want to fix and not worry about

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-10 Thread John Gabriele via Digitalmars-d
On Saturday, 10 February 2018 at 12:44:14 UTC, rjframe wrote: On Fri, 09 Feb 2018 22:36:19 +, Ralph Doncaster wrote: Frankly, I think it is doomed to be a niche-use language. While many more things were done right compared to C++, too many things were done wrong and there doesn't seem to

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-10 Thread Jon Degenhardt via Digitalmars-d
On Friday, 9 February 2018 at 07:54:49 UTC, Suliman wrote: Which language futures by your opinion make D harder? For me, one of the attractive qualities of D is its relative simplicity. Key comparison points are C++, Scala, and Python. Python being the simplest, then D, not far off, with

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-10 Thread Timon Gehr via Digitalmars-d
On 10.02.2018 14:05, Mark wrote: On Saturday, 10 February 2018 at 12:35:39 UTC, Timon Gehr wrote: So as expected, the difference is that for parametrically polymorphic functions, the type T /does not need to be known at compile time/. According to this definition C++ doesn't support

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-10 Thread Bo via Digitalmars-d
On Friday, 9 February 2018 at 23:01:44 UTC, Ola Fosheim Grøstad wrote: On Friday, 9 February 2018 at 20:49:24 UTC, Meta wrote: was a complicated language, 99 of them would say no. If you ask 100 Python programmers, 99 would probably say yes. Yes, but objectively speaking I'd say modern Python

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-10 Thread bachmeier via Digitalmars-d
On Friday, 9 February 2018 at 22:36:19 UTC, Ralph Doncaster wrote: While many more things were done right compared to C++, too many things were done wrong and there doesn't seem to be interest in breaking backward compatibility to excise them from D. I agree. Some users might shout because

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-10 Thread Mark via Digitalmars-d
On Saturday, 10 February 2018 at 12:35:39 UTC, Timon Gehr wrote: So as expected, the difference is that for parametrically polymorphic functions, the type T /does not need to be known at compile time/. According to this definition C++ doesn't support parametric polymorphism either, does it?

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-10 Thread rjframe via Digitalmars-d
On Fri, 09 Feb 2018 22:36:19 +, Ralph Doncaster wrote: > Frankly, I think it is doomed to be a niche-use language. While many > more things were done right compared to C++, too many things were done > wrong and there doesn't seem to be interest in breaking backward > compatibility to excise

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-10 Thread Timon Gehr via Digitalmars-d
On 10.02.2018 03:12, Nick Sabalausky wrote: On Saturday, 10 February 2018 at 01:24:55 UTC, Timon Gehr wrote: The fundamental issue is that D's type system has no parametric polymorphism, Pardon my ignorance, but isn't that what D's templated functions do? This sounds interesting but unclear

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-10 Thread Dukc via Digitalmars-d
On Friday, 9 February 2018 at 18:31:18 UTC, H. S. Teoh wrote: TBH, I'm not a fan of inout. Not because of how most people feel, that we shouldn't have it; IMO it doesn't go *far enough*. For example, there's currently no way to express conveying the constness of a delegate argument's

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-09 Thread Nick Sabalausky via Digitalmars-d
On Saturday, 10 February 2018 at 01:24:55 UTC, Timon Gehr wrote: The fundamental issue is that D's type system has no parametric polymorphism, Pardon my ignorance, but isn't that what D's templated functions do? This sounds interesting but unclear exactly what you mean here and how it

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-09 Thread Timon Gehr via Digitalmars-d
On 09.02.2018 19:31, H. S. Teoh wrote: On Fri, Feb 09, 2018 at 05:56:38PM +, Dukc via Digitalmars-d wrote: On Friday, 9 February 2018 at 07:54:49 UTC, Suliman wrote: Which language futures by your opinion make D harder? Not many! D is a fairly complex languague, but just about everything

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-09 Thread Timon Gehr via Digitalmars-d
On 09.02.2018 19:34, Seb wrote: On Friday, 9 February 2018 at 18:21:55 UTC, Bo wrote: Here are a few more "basics" that are unneeded or confusing. Lets not even talk about the more advanced features like inout, ... /-/ * auto: Static typed language yet we fall back on the compiler to figure

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-09 Thread Nick Sabalausky (Abscissa) via Digitalmars-d
On 02/09/2018 06:03 PM, H. S. Teoh wrote: On Fri, Feb 09, 2018 at 05:13:51PM -0500, Nick Sabalausky (Abscissa) via Digitalmars-d wrote: On 02/09/2018 02:01 PM, H. S. Teoh wrote: Currently, my vibe.d project has a subdirectory containing an empty dummy dub project, the sole purpose of which is

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-09 Thread Nick Sabalausky (Abscissa) via Digitalmars-d
On 02/09/2018 05:55 PM, H. S. Teoh wrote: When I found D, I had already been chafing for *years* under the hell that C++ development was, but could not stand the thought of moving to Java, because it was just (1) too verbose, and (2) not powerful enough to express what I want. (That was in the

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-09 Thread Nick Sabalausky (Abscissa) via Digitalmars-d
On 02/09/2018 05:49 PM, H. S. Teoh wrote: On Fri, Feb 09, 2018 at 05:49:31PM -0500, Nick Sabalausky (Abscissa) via Digitalmars-d wrote: Really? That's not been my perception. From what I've seen, anything that requires the user to mixin a string, is pretty much automatically granted the

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-09 Thread Jonathan M Davis via Digitalmars-d
On Friday, February 09, 2018 14:49:42 H. S. Teoh via Digitalmars-d wrote: > On Fri, Feb 09, 2018 at 05:49:31PM -0500, Nick Sabalausky (Abscissa) via Digitalmars-d wrote: > > On 02/09/2018 05:20 PM, H. S. Teoh wrote: > > > Sadly, these days it seems almost every other day somebody else > > >

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-09 Thread H. S. Teoh via Digitalmars-d
On Fri, Feb 09, 2018 at 05:13:51PM -0500, Nick Sabalausky (Abscissa) via Digitalmars-d wrote: > On 02/09/2018 02:01 PM, H. S. Teoh wrote: > > Currently, my vibe.d project has a subdirectory containing an empty > > dummy dub project, the sole purpose of which is to declare vibe.d > > dependencies

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-09 Thread H. S. Teoh via Digitalmars-d
On Fri, Feb 09, 2018 at 05:41:28PM -0500, Nick Sabalausky (Abscissa) via Digitalmars-d wrote: > On 02/09/2018 04:27 PM, Jonathan M Davis wrote: > > > > I have to agree with all of this. I've never found D as a whole to > > be overly complicated. C++ wins _that_ contest hands down. And I've > >

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-09 Thread Ola Fosheim Grøstad via Digitalmars-d
On Friday, 9 February 2018 at 20:49:24 UTC, Meta wrote: was a complicated language, 99 of them would say no. If you ask 100 Python programmers, 99 would probably say yes. Yes, but objectively speaking I'd say modern Python is more complicated than C++ and D. What Python got right is that

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-09 Thread H. S. Teoh via Digitalmars-d
On Fri, Feb 09, 2018 at 05:49:31PM -0500, Nick Sabalausky (Abscissa) via Digitalmars-d wrote: > On 02/09/2018 05:20 PM, H. S. Teoh wrote: > > > > Sadly, these days it seems almost every other day somebody else > > stumbles into a problem to which string mixins seem to be the > > default answer.

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-09 Thread H. S. Teoh via Digitalmars-d
On Fri, Feb 09, 2018 at 10:22:01PM +, rumbu via Digitalmars-d wrote: [...] > Personally, I don't use dub. If I need some library, I download and > add it to my library import path. The only way that dub will convince > me will be a right click context menu on my VS project entitled > "Manage

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-09 Thread Nick Sabalausky (Abscissa) via Digitalmars-d
On 02/09/2018 05:20 PM, H. S. Teoh wrote: Sadly, these days it seems almost every other day somebody else stumbles into a problem to which string mixins seem to be the default answer. Really? That's not been my perception. From what I've seen, anything that requires the user to mixin a

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-09 Thread Ralph Doncaster via Digitalmars-d
On Friday, 9 February 2018 at 21:05:10 UTC, H. S. Teoh wrote: On Fri, Feb 09, 2018 at 08:49:24PM +, Meta via Digitalmars-d wrote: [...] I think the perception of D being complicated is more from programmers coming from Python/Ruby/JS (and to a lesser extent, Haskell/Scheme/Java). D is

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-09 Thread Nick Sabalausky (Abscissa) via Digitalmars-d
On 02/09/2018 04:27 PM, Jonathan M Davis wrote: I have to agree with all of this. I've never found D as a whole to be overly complicated. C++ wins _that_ contest hands down. And I've found languages like Java to be overly simple (e.g. one of my professors in college said that Java didn't become

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-09 Thread H. S. Teoh via Digitalmars-d
On Fri, Feb 09, 2018 at 01:36:50PM -0800, Manu wrote: >On 9 February 2018 at 11:19, H. S. Teoh via Digitalmars-d ><[1]digitalmars-d@puremagic.com> wrote: > > >    3. string mixins always used in place of some sort of more > >sanitary     macro system > [...] > > That

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-09 Thread Nick Sabalausky (Abscissa) via Digitalmars-d
On 02/09/2018 04:58 PM, rumbu wrote: It's not about how nice is a solution, it's about how easy is for someone to find out about a language feature and use it. D has a library solution for everything that is missing from the core language instead to include in the language well proven

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-09 Thread Nick Sabalausky (Abscissa) via Digitalmars-d
On 02/09/2018 01:13 PM, Russel Winder wrote: On Fri, 2018-02-09 at 16:10 +, Seb via Digitalmars-d wrote: […] Dub is not dead, it just has limited resources. So , if the D community want Dub to work as a build system as well as a package manager, extend the resources by corralling the

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-09 Thread rumbu via Digitalmars-d
On Friday, 9 February 2018 at 15:53:47 UTC, Russel Winder wrote: On Fri, 2018-02-09 at 14:04 +, rumbu via Digitalmars-d wrote: […] 1. Keeps data in the %APPDATA%/Roaming folder. Connecting my computer to the company network means that AD will sync zillions of files on the company

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-09 Thread Nick Sabalausky (Abscissa) via Digitalmars-d
On 02/09/2018 02:01 PM, H. S. Teoh wrote: Currently, my vibe.d project has a subdirectory containing an empty dummy dub project, the sole purpose of which is to declare vibe.d dependencies so that `dub build` in that subdirectory will fetch and build vibe.d and whatever else it may depend on,

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-09 Thread Nick Sabalausky (Abscissa) via Digitalmars-d
On 02/09/2018 10:55 AM, Russel Winder wrote: Of course whilst people just moan nothing changes. It strikes me as time to actively evolve Dub or replace it. A replacement package manager[1] has been on my pet project wish list for awhile, but so are a ton of other things and there's not much

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-09 Thread rumbu via Digitalmars-d
On Friday, 9 February 2018 at 16:35:47 UTC, Seb wrote: On Friday, 9 February 2018 at 15:06:49 UTC, rumbu wrote: All understood, but just to get your mind set better, I would have two quick follow-up questions if you don't mind. On Friday, 9 February 2018 at 15:06:49 UTC, rumbu wrote: rough

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-09 Thread Nick Sabalausky (Abscissa) via Digitalmars-d
On 02/09/2018 08:51 AM, Atila Neves wrote: On Friday, 9 February 2018 at 13:34:01 UTC, tetyys wrote: Why do people hate dub? I think it's a great package manager and build tool Great package manager? Yes. Great build tool? No. I used to feel the same way, but honestly, at this point, I

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-09 Thread Nick Sabalausky (Abscissa) via Digitalmars-d
On 02/09/2018 08:53 AM, Seb wrote: On Friday, 9 February 2018 at 13:10:16 UTC, rumbu wrote: I'm missing too the yield return and await syntax in D every time. What's wrong with the library solution from std.concurrency? I can't speak for await, as I left C# for D long before it was

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-09 Thread Manu via Digitalmars-d
On 9 February 2018 at 11:19, H. S. Teoh via Digitalmars-d < digitalmars-d@puremagic.com> wrote: > > >3. string mixins always used in place of some sort of more sanitary > >macro system > [...] > > That gave me a double-take. "Sanitary" and "macro" in the same > sentence?! That's just

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-09 Thread Jonathan M Davis via Digitalmars-d
On Friday, February 09, 2018 20:49:24 Meta via Digitalmars-d wrote: > On Friday, 9 February 2018 at 07:54:49 UTC, Suliman wrote: > > I like D, but sometimes it's look like for me too complicated. > > Go have a lot of fans even it not simple, but primitive. But > > some D futures make it very hard

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-09 Thread H. S. Teoh via Digitalmars-d
On Fri, Feb 09, 2018 at 08:49:24PM +, Meta via Digitalmars-d wrote: [...] > I think the perception of D being complicated is more from programmers > coming from Python/Ruby/JS (and to a lesser extent, > Haskell/Scheme/Java). D is quite different if you're coming from a > "VM" or "scripting"

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-09 Thread John Gabriele via Digitalmars-d
On Friday, 9 February 2018 at 19:08:36 UTC, John Gabriele wrote: Would it make sense to split out dub's build functionality from its package management? Separate sharp tools for separate jobs. I've only heard of Atila's reggae today. Is reggae commonly used among D users? Are there any show

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-09 Thread Meta via Digitalmars-d
On Friday, 9 February 2018 at 07:54:49 UTC, Suliman wrote: I like D, but sometimes it's look like for me too complicated. Go have a lot of fans even it not simple, but primitive. But some D futures make it very hard to learning. Small list by me: 1. mixins 2. inout 3. too many attributes

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-09 Thread Patrick Schluter via Digitalmars-d
On Friday, 9 February 2018 at 18:44:08 UTC, Meta wrote: On Friday, 9 February 2018 at 18:21:55 UTC, Bo wrote: * scope() .. just call it "defer" just as every other language now does. It only confuses people who come from other languages. Its now almost a standard. By using scope people have

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-09 Thread Jonathan M Davis via Digitalmars-d
On Friday, February 09, 2018 15:48:42 Andrea Fontana via Digitalmars-d wrote: > On Friday, 9 February 2018 at 15:35:38 UTC, Mike Parker wrote: > > On Friday, 9 February 2018 at 15:27:18 UTC, Andrea Fontana > > > > wrote: > >>> If you need to take the address of a constant, use immutable > >>> or

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-09 Thread Jonathan M Davis via Digitalmars-d
On Friday, February 09, 2018 15:33:30 Andrea Fontana via Digitalmars-d wrote: > On Friday, 9 February 2018 at 15:05:05 UTC, Jonathan M Davis > > wrote: > > [...] > > The reality of the matter is that shared is _supposed_ to > > result in a bunch of compilation errors when you try to do > > stuff

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-09 Thread H. S. Teoh via Digitalmars-d
On 8 February 2018 at 23:54, Suliman via Digitalmars-d <[1]digitalmars-d@puremagic.com> wrote: > > I like D, but sometimes it's look like for me too complicated. Go > have a lot of fans even it not simple, but primitive. But some D > futures make it very hard to learning. > >

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-09 Thread Mark via Digitalmars-d
On Friday, 9 February 2018 at 18:34:33 UTC, Seb wrote: On Friday, 9 February 2018 at 18:21:55 UTC, Bo wrote: Here are a few more "basics" that are unneeded or confusing. Lets not even talk about the more advanced features like inout, ... /-/ * auto: Static typed language yet we fall back on

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-09 Thread Manu via Digitalmars-d
On 8 February 2018 at 23:54, Suliman via Digitalmars-d < digitalmars-d@puremagic.com> wrote: > I like D, but sometimes it's look like for me too complicated. Go have a > lot of fans even it not simple, but primitive. But some D futures make it > very hard to learning. > > Small list by me: > 1.

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-09 Thread H. S. Teoh via Digitalmars-d
On Fri, Feb 09, 2018 at 06:20:32PM +, Atila Neves via Digitalmars-d wrote: [...] > I'm perfectly happy with dub-the-package-manager. > > As for dub-the-build-system, I already did something about it: I wrote > reggae. Nearly all of the problems I've had with using dub to build > have

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-09 Thread John Gabriele via Digitalmars-d
On Friday, 9 February 2018 at 18:40:25 UTC, Seb wrote: On Friday, 9 February 2018 at 18:13:08 UTC, Russel Winder wrote: On Fri, 2018-02-09 at 16:10 +, Seb via Digitalmars-d wrote: […] Dub is not dead, it just has limited resources. So , if the D community want Dub to work as a build

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-09 Thread Meta via Digitalmars-d
On Friday, 9 February 2018 at 17:31:47 UTC, Adam D. Ruppe wrote: On Friday, 9 February 2018 at 16:44:32 UTC, Seb wrote: Forget inout, it's seldomly used and there have even attempts to remove it from the language. inout rox. I think this is more of a documentation discoverability problem. We

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-09 Thread H. S. Teoh via Digitalmars-d
On Fri, Feb 09, 2018 at 06:44:08PM +, Meta via Digitalmars-d wrote: > On Friday, 9 February 2018 at 18:21:55 UTC, Bo wrote: > > * scope() .. just call it "defer" just as every other language now > > does. It only confuses people who come from other languages. Its > > now almost a standard. By

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-09 Thread Seb via Digitalmars-d
On Friday, 9 February 2018 at 18:13:08 UTC, Russel Winder wrote: On Fri, 2018-02-09 at 16:10 +, Seb via Digitalmars-d wrote: […] Dub is not dead, it just has limited resources. So , if the D community want Dub to work as a build system as well as a package manager, extend the

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-09 Thread Meta via Digitalmars-d
On Friday, 9 February 2018 at 18:21:55 UTC, Bo wrote: * scope() .. just call it "defer" just as every other language now does. It only confuses people who come from other languages. Its now almost a standard. By using scope people have have no clue that D has a defer. Took even me a while to

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-09 Thread H. S. Teoh via Digitalmars-d
On Fri, Feb 09, 2018 at 05:56:38PM +, Dukc via Digitalmars-d wrote: > On Friday, 9 February 2018 at 07:54:49 UTC, Suliman wrote: > > Which language futures by your opinion make D harder? > > Not many! D is a fairly complex languague, but just about everything > feels like to be here for a

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-09 Thread jmh530 via Digitalmars-d
On Friday, 9 February 2018 at 18:21:55 UTC, Bo wrote: [snip] * scope() .. just call it "defer" just as every other language now does. It only confuses people who come from other languages. Its now almost a standard. By using scope people have have no clue that D has a defer. Took even me a

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-09 Thread Seb via Digitalmars-d
On Friday, 9 February 2018 at 18:21:55 UTC, Bo wrote: Here are a few more "basics" that are unneeded or confusing. Lets not even talk about the more advanced features like inout, ... /-/ * auto: Static typed language yet we fall back on the compiler to figure out what is being assigned. Can

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-09 Thread Bo via Digitalmars-d
Here are a few more "basics" that are unneeded or confusing. Lets not even talk about the more advanced features like inout, ... /-/ * auto: Static typed language yet we fall back on the compiler to figure out what is being assigned. Can just as well have a interpreter language. It only

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-09 Thread Atila Neves via Digitalmars-d
On Friday, 9 February 2018 at 15:55:27 UTC, Russel Winder wrote: On Fri, 2018-02-09 at 13:51 +, Atila Neves via Digitalmars-d wrote: On Friday, 9 February 2018 at 13:34:01 UTC, tetyys wrote: > On Friday, 9 February 2018 at 13:10:16 UTC, rumbu wrote: > > > > And not a language feature but I

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-09 Thread Russel Winder via Digitalmars-d
On Fri, 2018-02-09 at 16:17 +, jmh530 via Digitalmars-d wrote: > […] > > He's written a build tool: > > https://github.com/atilaneves/reggae Indeed, but it seems to be gaining no traction in the community. Dub has the mindshare, because of the package repository. -- Russel.

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-09 Thread Atila Neves via Digitalmars-d
On Friday, 9 February 2018 at 15:25:51 UTC, jmh530 wrote: On Friday, 9 February 2018 at 13:47:51 UTC, Atila Neves wrote: On Friday, 9 February 2018 at 08:27:21 UTC, Nick Sabalausky And yes, things like "inout", "auto ref" or whatever, and such, strike me as indicative of more fundamental

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-09 Thread Russel Winder via Digitalmars-d
On Fri, 2018-02-09 at 16:10 +, Seb via Digitalmars-d wrote: > […] > Dub is not dead, it just has limited resources. So , if the D community want Dub to work as a build system as well as a package manager, extend the resources by corralling the grumblers and support them into fixing code and

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-09 Thread Dukc via Digitalmars-d
On Friday, 9 February 2018 at 07:54:49 UTC, Suliman wrote: Which language futures by your opinion make D harder? Not many! D is a fairly complex languague, but just about everything feels like to be here for a good reason. That includes many oft-hated things: inout, auto ref, goto,

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-09 Thread Adam D. Ruppe via Digitalmars-d
On Friday, 9 February 2018 at 16:44:32 UTC, Seb wrote: Forget inout, it's seldomly used and there have even attempts to remove it from the language. inout rox. I think this is more of a documentation discoverability problem. We should be having people read the spec, which is written toward

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-09 Thread Ralph Doncaster via Digitalmars-d
On Friday, 9 February 2018 at 16:33:21 UTC, bachmeier wrote: On Friday, 9 February 2018 at 16:05:52 UTC, Ralph Doncaster wrote: It might be clear and simple to you, but it's not to me. And I'm a rather advanced developer. While there are lots of things I like about D compared to C++ such as

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-09 Thread Seb via Digitalmars-d
On Friday, 9 February 2018 at 16:05:52 UTC, Ralph Doncaster wrote: On Friday, 9 February 2018 at 15:46:56 UTC, Mike Parker wrote: On Friday, 9 February 2018 at 15:37:12 UTC, Ralph Doncaster wrote: I think you are proving my point. You say there is no difference between: const MAX_IN = 20;

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-09 Thread Seb via Digitalmars-d
On Friday, 9 February 2018 at 15:06:49 UTC, rumbu wrote: All understood, but just to get your mind set better, I would have two quick follow-up questions if you don't mind. On Friday, 9 February 2018 at 15:06:49 UTC, rumbu wrote: rough C# translation: async void spawnedFunc() { int i =

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-09 Thread bachmeier via Digitalmars-d
On Friday, 9 February 2018 at 16:05:52 UTC, Ralph Doncaster wrote: It might be clear and simple to you, but it's not to me. And I'm a rather advanced developer. While there are lots of things I like about D compared to C++ such as getting rid of #include hell, there's too many "messy" things

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-09 Thread jmh530 via Digitalmars-d
On Friday, 9 February 2018 at 15:55:27 UTC, Russel Winder wrote: Great build tool? No. For anything that's not trivial it's an exercise in frustration, pain, tears, waiting for builds to finish, and workarounds for bugs. Of course whilst people just moan nothing changes. It strikes me as

Re: Which language futures make D overcompicated?

2018-02-09 Thread Seb via Digitalmars-d
On Friday, 9 February 2018 at 15:53:47 UTC, Russel Winder wrote: Have you put forward a pull request to fix it, and tests obviously. 4 year old issues just mean no-one cares about it enough to do something. 4 year old pull requests is time to fork the project with a new team of developers.

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