Re: An idea for commercial support for D

On Sunday, 4 February 2018 at 08:26:54 UTC, Joakim wrote: I think you're missing the point entirely: _this is the model that the community uses to undermine the corporations_. I really do think it's the other way around - indeed, it is probably too late - as corporations have *already*

Re: An idea for commercial support for D

On 2 February 2018 at 11:21, Joakim via Digitalmars-d wrote: > On Friday, 2 February 2018 at 09:26:51 UTC, Iain Buclaw wrote: >> >> On 31 January 2018 at 09:43, Joakim via Digitalmars-d >> wrote: >>> >>> I'm sure you can find much better

Re: An idea for commercial support for D

On Sunday, 4 February 2018 at 08:26:54 UTC, Joakim wrote: I don't think it affects them much, as none of the motivations above would be hurt by paid contributors. If anything, it _increases_ their drive, as they have a lot more OSS code to work on with mixed codebases. Well, it's not

Re: An idea for commercial support for D

On Sunday, 4 February 2018 at 02:15:32 UTC, psychoticRabbit wrote: On Saturday, 3 February 2018 at 13:14:04 UTC, rjframe wrote: Except it doesn't. The GPL can be used to keep a competitor from stepping up and using your work to create an alternative product, allowing you to have a mixed

Re: An idea for commercial support for D

On Saturday, 3 February 2018 at 13:14:04 UTC, rjframe wrote: Except it doesn't. The GPL can be used to keep a competitor from stepping up and using your work to create an alternative product, allowing you to have a mixed open/closed model without worrying about competition. Many companies

Re: An idea for commercial support for D

On Sat, 03 Feb 2018 12:08:21 +, psychoticRabbit wrote: > On Saturday, 3 February 2018 at 10:49:06 UTC, Joakim wrote: >> And what we find is that when you allow such mixing with >> permissively-licensed projects (that the GPL makes much more >> difficult), . > > I've never been a fan of

Re: An idea for commercial support for D

On Saturday, 3 February 2018 at 10:49:06 UTC, Joakim wrote: And what we find is that when you allow such mixing with permissively-licensed projects (that the GPL makes much more difficult), . I've never been a fan of the GPL.. until I read this thread. It may well be, that more and more

Re: An idea for commercial support for D

On Friday, 2 February 2018 at 13:48:12 UTC, psychotic Rabbit wrote: On Friday, 2 February 2018 at 10:21:35 UTC, Joakim wrote: I can't be bothered to strain through your tortured analogies that make no sense and explain to you all the ways you're wrong. I'm respecting you enough to point out

Re: An idea for commercial support for D

On Friday, 2 February 2018 at 10:21:35 UTC, Joakim wrote: I can't be bothered to strain through your tortured analogies that make no sense and explain to you all the ways you're wrong. I'm respecting you enough to point out that none of your points make any sense, most would just ignore crazy

Re: An idea for commercial support for D

On Friday, 2 February 2018 at 09:26:51 UTC, Iain Buclaw wrote: On 31 January 2018 at 09:43, Joakim via Digitalmars-d wrote: I'm sure you can find much better D devs to contribute such work by posting bounties on the D or ldc bountysource pages:

Re: An idea for commercial support for D

On Friday, 2 February 2018 at 08:56:04 UTC, Joakim wrote: So given that all your claims are easily logically proven to be nonsense, there's no point in going any further. You need to do better than that to convince me ;-) Now.. I might entertain a model of paying someone, *after* they had

Re: An idea for commercial support for D

On 2 February 2018 at 09:56, Joakim via Digitalmars-d wrote: > On Friday, 2 February 2018 at 02:04:07 UTC, psychoticRabbit wrote: >> >> On Wednesday, 31 January 2018 at 08:43:46 UTC, Joakim wrote: >>> >>> ... >>> >>> My time-limited model makes sure all source is made

Re: An idea for commercial support for D

On 31 January 2018 at 09:43, Joakim via Digitalmars-d wrote: > On Tuesday, 30 January 2018 at 19:45:51 UTC, Laeeth Isharc wrote: >> >> On Sunday, 4 January 2015 at 08:31:23 UTC, Joakim wrote: >>> >>> This is an idea I've been kicking around for a while, and given the

Re: An idea for commercial support for D

On Friday, 2 February 2018 at 02:04:07 UTC, psychoticRabbit wrote: On Wednesday, 31 January 2018 at 08:43:46 UTC, Joakim wrote: ... My time-limited model makes sure all source is made open eventually, once the developers have been paid for their work. This deceptive hybrid model (based I

Re: An idea for commercial support for D

On Wednesday, 31 January 2018 at 08:43:46 UTC, Joakim wrote: ... My time-limited model makes sure all source is made open eventually, once the developers have been paid for their work. This deceptive hybrid model (based I my understanding of it per the description above) is really

Re: An idea for commercial support for D

On Thursday, 1 February 2018 at 20:52:43 UTC, Jacob Carlborg wrote: On 2018-01-31 09:43, Joakim wrote: Back when I first wrote about mixing open and closed source like this in my 2010 Phoronix article, nobody considered it a world-beating model. Maybe people now assume I'm just keying these

Re: An idea for commercial support for D

On 2018-01-31 09:43, Joakim wrote: Back when I first wrote about mixing open and closed source like this in my 2010 Phoronix article, nobody considered it a world-beating model. Maybe people now assume I'm just keying these ideas off the success of Android in using a similar mixed model, but my

Re: An idea for commercial support for D

On Tuesday, 30 January 2018 at 19:45:51 UTC, Laeeth Isharc wrote: On Sunday, 4 January 2015 at 08:31:23 UTC, Joakim wrote: This is an idea I've been kicking around for a while, and given the need for commercial support for D, would perhaps work well here. [...] By the way, in case you are

Re: An idea for commercial support for D

On Monday, 12 January 2015 at 06:30:20 UTC, Zach the Mystic wrote: Convenience, to me, is one-click downloading from the home page, one click installation, and full IDE support akin to what Apple, Microsoft and any other behemoth has done for their language. The language has nothing to do with

Re: An idea for commercial support for D

On Sunday, 4 January 2015 at 08:31:23 UTC, Joakim wrote: This is an idea I've been kicking around for a while, and given the need for commercial support for D, would perhaps work well here. [...] By the way, in case you are interested in this path personally still, I'd be willing to pay

Re: An idea for commercial support for D

On Friday, 9 January 2015 at 15:39:13 UTC, Joakim wrote: It poses unacceptable risk of company becoming hostage of ecosystem were buying closed patches is only way to use the tool effectively. In software world where even .NET goes open-source there is simply no reason why would one agree on

Re: An idea for commercial support for D

There are very few monopolies in software, essentially none nowadays. :D :D :D :D :D I have not laughed so hard for quite a while. Modern IT industry is absolutely dominated by monopolies / oligopolies. Hard to reason with you if this is what you see.

Re: An idea for commercial support for D

On Sunday, 11 January 2015 at 16:13:01 UTC, Dicebot wrote: There are very few monopolies in software, essentially none nowadays. :D :D :D :D :D I have not laughed so hard for quite a while. Modern IT industry is absolutely dominated by monopolies / oligopolies. Hard to reason with you if

Re: An idea for commercial support for D

On Sunday, 11 January 2015 at 12:39:03 UTC, Dicebot wrote: On Friday, 9 January 2015 at 15:39:13 UTC, Joakim wrote: It poses unacceptable risk of company becoming hostage of ecosystem were buying closed patches is only way to use the tool effectively. In software world where even .NET goes

Re: An idea for commercial support for D

On 11 January 2015 at 16:23, Joakim via Digitalmars-d digitalmars-d@puremagic.com wrote: On Sunday, 11 January 2015 at 16:13:01 UTC, Dicebot wrote: There are very few monopolies in software, essentially none nowadays. :D :D :D :D :D I have not laughed so hard for quite a while. Modern IT

Re: An idea for commercial support for D

On Sunday, 11 January 2015 at 19:27:15 UTC, Iain Buclaw via Digitalmars-d wrote: On 11 January 2015 at 16:23, Joakim via Digitalmars-d digitalmars-d@puremagic.com wrote: On Sunday, 11 January 2015 at 16:13:01 UTC, Dicebot wrote: There are very few monopolies in software, essentially none

Re: An idea for commercial support for D

On Sunday, 11 January 2015 at 16:02:59 UTC, Joakim wrote: You may be right that nobody else in the _D_ community sees the value, but engineers are notorious for being ignorant of business and economics, so nothing unusual if that's the case. Yeah, it seems to be a big deal. D may end up

Re: An idea for commercial support for D

On Monday, 12 January 2015 at 05:02:36 UTC, Joakim wrote: Yeah, it seems to be a big deal. D may end up needing what it doesn't appear to have: some business genius to go along with its language design prowess. The switching costs are far too high right now. Even the ideal programming language

Re: An idea for commercial support for D

On Friday, 9 January 2015 at 18:01:50 UTC, anonymous wrote: On Friday, 9 January 2015 at 06:43:01 UTC, Joakim wrote: On Tuesday, 6 January 2015 at 22:37:40 UTC, anonymous wrote: [...] As far as I know there are companies that employ developers to work on open source software, with their

Re: An idea for commercial support for D

On Friday, 9 January 2015 at 14:43:02 UTC, Dicebot wrote: On Friday, 9 January 2015 at 12:21:35 UTC, Joakim wrote: To be honest if something like this would ever happen my first move would be to reach company leadership and discuss possible full forking of D compiler as a simple matter of

Re: An idea for commercial support for D

On Friday, 9 January 2015 at 04:33:53 UTC, Joakim wrote: I have little idea why you're going into all these detailed business cases that have nothing to do with the two separate concepts I've laid out, but what the hell, I'll bite. Start listing: 1. What alternatives the seller has. 2. What

Re: An idea for commercial support for D

On Friday, 9 January 2015 at 06:43:01 UTC, Joakim wrote: On Tuesday, 6 January 2015 at 22:37:40 UTC, anonymous wrote: [...] As far as I know there are companies that employ developers to work on open source software, with their patches open-sourced immediately. I'm assuming the employer can

Re: An idea for commercial support for D

On Wednesday, 7 January 2015 at 02:08:45 UTC, Joseph Rushton Wakeling via Digitalmars-d wrote: On 06/01/15 07:14, Joakim via Digitalmars-d wrote: I don't think such people matter, ie they're a very small but vocal minority. Also, these people are deeply irrational, as every piece of hardware

Re: An idea for commercial support for D

You have already proposed this idea once and were explained in great detail why it doesn't work. To be honest if something like this would ever happen my first move would be to reach company leadership and discuss possible full forking of D compiler as a simple matter of ensuring business

Re: An idea for commercial support for D

On Friday, 9 January 2015 at 11:40:47 UTC, Joakim wrote: Perhaps you're not a native speaker of the English language, but it is difficult to follow all the logical leaps you're making, as one point seems completely disconnected from the other and none seem connected to the topics from this

Re: An idea for commercial support for D

On Friday, 9 January 2015 at 11:50:30 UTC, Ola Fosheim Grøstad wrote: On Friday, 9 January 2015 at 11:40:47 UTC, Joakim wrote: Perhaps you're not a native speaker of the English language, but it is difficult to follow all the logical leaps you're making, as one point seems completely

Re: An idea for commercial support for D

On Friday, 9 January 2015 at 11:52:19 UTC, Dicebot wrote: You have already proposed this idea once and were explained in great detail why it doesn't work. You are right that I previously suggested in another thread that D use a hybrid model, but in that case I suggested that Walter sell a

Re: An idea for commercial support for D

On Friday, 9 January 2015 at 13:15:55 UTC, Joakim wrote: If you have any specific criticism of my business model, I'm glad to listen to it and take into account. I can't do much with suggestions that I enumerate how businesses work and figure out what you have in mind for myself, or

Re: An idea for commercial support for D

On Friday, 9 January 2015 at 12:02:33 UTC, Joakim wrote: Perhaps we struggle with the bigger picture, but your constant rambling onto completely unconnected topics that have nothing to do with the bigger picture can only make that struggle worse. :D My points always have something to do with

Re: An idea for commercial support for D

On Friday, 9 January 2015 at 13:05:29 UTC, Ola Fosheim Grøstad wrote: On Friday, 9 January 2015 at 12:02:33 UTC, Joakim wrote: Perhaps we struggle with the bigger picture, but your constant rambling onto completely unconnected topics that have nothing to do with the bigger picture can only

Re: An idea for commercial support for D

On Friday, 9 January 2015 at 08:48:49 UTC, Ola Fosheim Grøstad wrote: On Friday, 9 January 2015 at 04:33:53 UTC, Joakim wrote: I have little idea why you're going into all these detailed business cases that have nothing to do with the two separate concepts I've laid out, but what the hell,

Re: An idea for commercial support for D

On Friday, 9 January 2015 at 12:21:35 UTC, Joakim wrote: To be honest if something like this would ever happen my first move would be to reach company leadership and discuss possible full forking of D compiler as a simple matter of ensuring business safety. This scheme introduces unacceptable

Re: An idea for commercial support for D

On Thursday, 8 January 2015 at 15:27:57 UTC, Joakim wrote: the customer not being very price-sensitive. As for estimating the total cost, the seller also needs to estimate his expected revenue, ie how much demand there is and at what price. With this model, you are allowing the seller to get

Re: An idea for commercial support for D

On Thursday, 8 January 2015 at 23:22:19 UTC, Ola Fosheim Grøstad wrote: On Thursday, 8 January 2015 at 15:27:57 UTC, Joakim wrote: the customer not being very price-sensitive. As for estimating the total cost, the seller also needs to estimate his expected revenue, ie how much demand there is

Re: An idea for commercial support for D

On Tuesday, 6 January 2015 at 22:32:22 UTC, uri wrote: On Tuesday, 6 January 2015 at 13:34:59 UTC, Joakim wrote: Before you make such claims, you should probably think about them a little bit first. Please tell me one company that does not buy outside commercial software which they then use

Re: An idea for commercial support for D

On Tuesday, 6 January 2015 at 22:37:40 UTC, anonymous wrote: On Tuesday, 6 January 2015 at 19:46:51 UTC, Joakim wrote: On Tuesday, 6 January 2015 at 19:06:27 UTC, anonymous wrote: [...] I don't know of any commercial support model where you only pay for the fixes you need at any given moment

Re: An idea for commercial support for D

On Thursday, 8 January 2015 at 10:37:57 UTC, Joakim wrote: supply/demand curve for his product. In this variable pricing model, the customer also takes some of that risk, ie you'll pay more if enough other people don't also want the product. Businesses don't like risk. They need to estimate

Re: An idea for commercial support for D

On Tuesday, 6 January 2015 at 20:21:50 UTC, Zach the Mystic wrote: On Sunday, 4 January 2015 at 08:31:23 UTC, Joakim wrote: This is an idea I've been kicking around for a while, and given the need for commercial support for D, would perhaps work well here. The notion is that individual

Re: An idea for commercial support for D

On Thursday, 8 January 2015 at 12:06:18 UTC, Ola Fosheim Grøstad wrote: On Thursday, 8 January 2015 at 10:37:57 UTC, Joakim wrote: supply/demand curve for his product. In this variable pricing model, the customer also takes some of that risk, ie you'll pay more if enough other people don't

Re: An idea for commercial support for D

On Thursday, 8 January 2015 at 10:37:57 UTC, Joakim wrote: You're on the right track: I've talked in the past about a more advanced version of such a pricing model, that could be used for any intellectual property, not just for software. How it would work is that the developer sets a price

Re: An idea for commercial support for D

On Wednesday, 7 January 2015 at 12:16:39 UTC, Iain Buclaw via Digitalmars-d wrote: I feel that the same is for the reverse too. If you remove features, you again enter the realm of being another language. Yes, but would a business care? What they care about is productivity and risk

Re: An idea for commercial support for D

On Wednesday, 7 January 2015 at 02:16:47 UTC, Joseph Rushton Wakeling via Digitalmars-d wrote: On 06/01/15 23:32, uri via Digitalmars-d wrote: The dmd backend is not under an OSS license, why haven't they left? I suspect there are not very many of the type of people you're talking about in

Re: An idea for commercial support for D

On 7 January 2015 at 12:00, via Digitalmars-d digitalmars-d@puremagic.com wrote: On Wednesday, 7 January 2015 at 11:46:19 UTC, Iain Buclaw via Digitalmars-d wrote: That is where the value-for-money factor comes in. I cannot see any traction occurring in Joakim's badly thought out idea unless

Re: An idea for commercial support for D

On Wednesday, 7 January 2015 at 11:46:19 UTC, Iain Buclaw via Digitalmars-d wrote: That is where the value-for-money factor comes in. I cannot see any traction occurring in Joakim's badly thought out idea unless you have some *new* to give. I somehow feel that there is a commercial closed

Re: An idea for commercial support for D

On 07/01/15 13:08, uri via Digitalmars-d wrote: Thanks for the correction, and a very important one at that in the context of this thread. I wasn't aware the backend was open source. Er, I have to clarify again :-) The backend license is not an open source one; it is, strictly speaking,

Re: An idea for commercial support for D

On 7 January 2015 at 02:08, Joseph Rushton Wakeling via Digitalmars-d digitalmars-d@puremagic.com wrote: On 06/01/15 07:14, Joakim via Digitalmars-d wrote: I don't think such people matter, ie they're a very small but vocal minority. Also, these people are deeply irrational, as every piece of

Re: An idea for commercial support for D

Hi, Your business model is flawed for a number of reasons. Firstly, companies make money from their own products, not paying staff to figure out which bug fixes/features to cherry pick for the tool chain. Secondly, no one makes money by locking out others when they themselves can be locked

Re: An idea for commercial support for D

On Tuesday, 6 January 2015 at 12:05:34 UTC, uri wrote: Your business model is flawed for a number of reasons. Firstly, companies make money from their own products, not paying staff to figure out which bug fixes/features to cherry pick for the tool chain. Before you make such claims, you

Re: An idea for commercial support for D

On Tuesday, 6 January 2015 at 13:34:59 UTC, Joakim wrote: Maybe a handful of FOSS zealots would leave, but the resulting commercially supported D would be so much better, they'd be swamped by the new people coming on board. :) If there is a market for a commercial version of D then I think

Re: An idea for commercial support for D

On Sunday, 4 January 2015 at 08:31:23 UTC, Joakim wrote: This is an idea I've been kicking around for a while, and given the need for commercial support for D, would perhaps work well here. The notion is that individual developers could work on patches to fix bugs or add features to

Re: An idea for commercial support for D

On Tuesday, 6 January 2015 at 06:14:37 UTC, Joakim wrote: On Monday, 5 January 2015 at 22:51:25 UTC, Joseph Rushton Wakeling via Digitalmars-d wrote: [...] Most commercial adopters are going to consider it very important to have a support option that says, If you have a serious blocker, you

Re: An idea for commercial support for D

On Tuesday, 6 January 2015 at 19:46:51 UTC, Joakim wrote: On Tuesday, 6 January 2015 at 19:06:27 UTC, anonymous wrote: [...] I don't know of any commercial support model where you only pay for the fixes you need at any given moment and the fixes that others paid for are provided to you for

Re: An idea for commercial support for D

On Tuesday, 6 January 2015 at 13:34:59 UTC, Joakim wrote: Before you make such claims, you should probably think about them a little bit first. Please tell me one company that does not buy outside commercial software which they then use to build their own products. Some companies will want

Re: An idea for commercial support for D

On Tuesday, 6 January 2015 at 19:06:27 UTC, anonymous wrote: On Tuesday, 6 January 2015 at 06:14:37 UTC, Joakim wrote: On Monday, 5 January 2015 at 22:51:25 UTC, Joseph Rushton Wakeling via Digitalmars-d wrote: [...] Most commercial adopters are going to consider it very important to have a

Re: An idea for commercial support for D

On 06/01/15 23:32, uri via Digitalmars-d wrote: The dmd backend is not under an OSS license, why haven't they left? I suspect there are not very many of the type of people you're talking about in the D community. It's possible that you're right but I don't see it happening. The backend

Re: An idea for commercial support for D

On 06/01/15 07:14, Joakim via Digitalmars-d wrote: I don't think such people matter, ie they're a very small but vocal minority. Also, these people are deeply irrational, as every piece of hardware they're using comes with many closed binary blobs. They are either ignorant of this fact or just

Re: An idea for commercial support for D

On Monday, 5 January 2015 at 22:51:25 UTC, Joseph Rushton Wakeling via Digitalmars-d wrote: On 05/01/15 21:57, Joakim via Digitalmars-d wrote: If you're not paying, you're not a customer. The alternative is to use the bug-ridden OSS implementation you're using now for free, and not have a

Re: An idea for commercial support for D

On 05/01/15 21:57, Joakim via Digitalmars-d wrote: If you're not paying, you're not a customer. The alternative is to use the bug-ridden OSS implementation you're using now for free, and not have a paid version for those who want those bugs fixed. I don't doubt that some irrational people

Re: An idea for commercial support for D

Joseph Rushton Wakeling via Digitalmars-d wrote in message news:mailman.4177.1420498284.9932.digitalmar...@puremagic.com... A company is not going to just write a bunch of patches and open source all of them unless they have some complementary business model to go with it, whether

Re: An idea for commercial support for D

As a user of D in a corporate environment and personal at home environment, I have to say this model won't work for me. In fact if this model were implemented, I would more than likely have to move my project to a different language because of it. Let me explain the issues I see here. You've

Re: An idea for commercial support for D

On Monday, 5 January 2015 at 18:28:39 UTC, Jarrett Tierney wrote: As a user of D in a corporate environment and personal at home environment, I have to say this model won't work for me. In fact if this model were implemented, I would more than likely have to move my project to a different

Re: An idea for commercial support for D

On 4 Jan 2015 08:35, Joakim via Digitalmars-d digitalmars-d@puremagic.com wrote: This is an idea I've been kicking around for a while, and given the need for commercial support for D, would perhaps work well here. The notion is that individual developers could work on patches to fix bugs or

Re: An idea for commercial support for D

On Sunday, 4 January 2015 at 11:17:08 UTC, Iain Buclaw via Digitalmars-d wrote: On 4 Jan 2015 08:35, Joakim via Digitalmars-d digitalmars-d@puremagic.com wrote: This is an idea I've been kicking around for a while, and given the need for commercial support for D, would perhaps work well

Re: An idea for commercial support for D

On 01/04/2015 09:31 AM, Joakim wrote: The notion is that individual developers could work on patches to fix bugs or add features to ldc/druntime/phobos then sell those closed patches to paying customers. After enough time has passed, so that sufficient customers have adequately paid for the

Re: An idea for commercial support for D

On 4 January 2015 at 14:50, Joakim via Digitalmars-d digitalmars-d@puremagic.com wrote: On Sunday, 4 January 2015 at 11:17:08 UTC, Iain Buclaw via Digitalmars-d wrote: On 4 Jan 2015 08:35, Joakim via Digitalmars-d digitalmars-d@puremagic.com wrote: This is an idea I've been kicking around

An idea for commercial support for D

This is an idea I've been kicking around for a while, and given the need for commercial support for D, would perhaps work well here. The notion is that individual developers could work on patches to fix bugs or add features to ldc/druntime/phobos then sell those closed patches to paying

Re: An idea for commercial support for D

On Sunday, 4 January 2015 at 08:31:23 UTC, Joakim wrote: Two big benefits come out of this approach. Obviously, this would provide commercial support for paying customers, but the other big benefit is that it doesn't depend on some company providing that support. A decentralized group of

Re: An idea for commercial support for D

On Sunday, 4 January 2015 at 17:18:22 UTC, Iain Buclaw via Digitalmars-d wrote: On 4 January 2015 at 14:50, Joakim via Digitalmars-d digitalmars-d@puremagic.com wrote: Annoyance also extends out to maintainers too (I could write a book about Where DMD went wrong? Some more of DMD's greatest