Re: I have a plan.. I really DO
On Saturday, 30 June 2018 at 12:59:02 UTC, punkUser wrote: I don't normally contribute a lot here but as I've been using a fair mix of C/C++, D and Rust lately for a variety of projects from game dev to web to services, I have a few thoughts. Without exhaustively comparing the different pros/cons of the languages, the most important thing that makes me pick D for a project these days is actually vibe.d. It's the perfect balance between letting me expose my low level stuff as a network/web service easily while not trying to take over too much of my application or conversely get me to manually write async network state machines. I'd happily argue that its cooperative fiber model is actually superior to C#'s, and while it's not quite to the level of Go (mostly just because it's not as ubiquitously supported in the standard library), I'll still happily take the trade-off to use a language closer to C/C++. Rust's web framework and cooperative fiber story is still just forming, and I have some concern they'll go down the C# route which while better than nothing, isn't quite as nice as vibe.d where any function can effectively be part of a cooperative fiber without the need for infectious markup everywhere. Rust's syntax is also a fair bit different than C/C++ which makes it harder to collaborate with people for the moment, while D's is close enough that anyone with a decent amount of C/C++ experience can jump in pretty quickly. In terms of what makes me *not* want to use D, while GC is certainly a factor in some uses, in more cases it's actually that I want more language and compiler stability. While things have calmed down somewhat in the past year the number of times a D update has broken code (mine or code in a dependency) and left me trying to debug someone else's code deep in a library somewhere when I'm trying to just do a small update has been far too high. Rust's "stable" branch and their new epochs model (where the language can change every few years but critically dependencies using different epochs work together) is something I would love to be adopted in D. In any case I just wanted to give the feedback that from my point of view the main thing that keeps me coming back to it for new projects is vibe.d. Thus I'm in favor of making vibe.d a big part of the selling point and design considerations for D going forward. Not to brag and what not, but if you're going straight for web and not anything else then use Diamond, because it gives you so much more than vibe.d alone does, but at the same time allows you to utilize vibe.d to its full extend.
Re: I have a plan.. I really DO
On Saturday, 30 June 2018 at 07:11:18 UTC, Joakim wrote: I'd hope a manager would look at actually meaningful stats like downloads, rather than just fluffy stats such as "likes": http://www.somsubhra.com/github-release-stats/?username=crystal-lang=crystal http://www.somsubhra.com/github-release-stats/?username=ldc-developers=ldc I see around 9k total downloads of the various Crystal 0.24 and 0.25 versions over the last 8 months, compared to 14k downloads of the ldc 1.9 compiler alone from two months ago. Its hard to compare those figure because D and Crystal also use package installers on the respectable platforms. Going to the crystal download page makes that very clear. Making tracking downloads more harder. D can reach more Git downloads thanks to Windows users that do not rely on Linux system packages. D its buginess in between releases also does not help. I probably downloaded LDC and DMD in the last 9 months a dozen times, being forced to go back to older versions. Then trying the new versions, going back. Again and again on Windows. Downloads do not mean a lot when you can not keep the people. I can swear that i alone am probably responsible for over 25+ downloads on Windows and dozens on Linux OS. And every time D loses me after running into issues. Crystal its 0.24 release is still perfectly working here. I literally have downloaded 2 version in the last year. 0.23 and 0.24... That is it. No switching between version because of bugs or package issues or dependency issues. Kind of ironic but maybe because the http server and other packages are build in to the core, i have no need for external 3th party solutions like D's Vibe.d. Of course, all these stats can be gamed, but I think it'd be hard to argue Crystal is more popular. code.d Total 1336 packages found. crystalshards.xyz 3359 total shards Track both sites using archive.org and notice that Crystal is growing faster in regards to Shards then D its packages. Duplicates D something like 6 postgresql driver packages. Crystal has 2 drivers. So D is actually fluffing its numbers with a lot of not maintained duplicates. Mysql ... Its not hard to tell that Crystal its Shards community is more active. Crystal only recently got the funding to get a full time employees to work on the code base. So one can expect the development to increase from a mostly community driven platform. They out gross Nim by almost double on average ( salt.bountysource.com ) and that does not include the 2000$ / month that "84 codes" directly donates. I do not know how much D takes in per month. This has always been a more obscure, as is who are the people that really are paid full time to work on D. Walter? Crystal needs a lot of work but so does D. You expect D to have more its act together for a language this old. No default http server in this day and age is just really weak sauce. And Vibe.d breaks plenty of times in between its releases and DMD releases. Both have issues but one is under development for 4 year and the other for 16 years. You expect D to simply outclass Crystal and other languages. Even Rust is out developing D in many areas, a lot thanks to a big community.
Re: I have a plan.. I really DO
On Saturday, 30 June 2018 at 12:59:02 UTC, punkUser wrote: I don't normally contribute a lot here but as I've been using a fair mix of C/C++, D and Rust lately for a variety of projects from game dev to web to services, I have a few thoughts. Without exhaustively comparing the different pros/cons of the languages, the most important thing that makes me pick D for a project these days is actually vibe.d. It's the perfect balance between letting me expose my low level stuff as a network/web service easily while not trying to take over too much of my application or conversely get me to manually write async network state machines. I'd happily argue that its cooperative fiber model is actually superior to C#'s, and while it's not quite to the level of Go (mostly just because it's not as ubiquitously supported in the standard library), I'll still happily take the trade-off to use a language closer to C/C++. Rust's web framework and cooperative fiber story is still just forming, and I have some concern they'll go down the C# route which while better than nothing, isn't quite as nice as vibe.d where any function can effectively be part of a cooperative fiber without the need for infectious markup everywhere. Rust's syntax is also a fair bit different than C/C++ which makes it harder to collaborate with people for the moment, while D's is close enough that anyone with a decent amount of C/C++ experience can jump in pretty quickly. In terms of what makes me *not* want to use D, while GC is certainly a factor in some uses, in more cases it's actually that I want more language and compiler stability. While things have calmed down somewhat in the past year the number of times a D update has broken code (mine or code in a dependency) and left me trying to debug someone else's code deep in a library somewhere when I'm trying to just do a small update has been far too high. Rust's "stable" branch and their new epochs model (where the language can change every few years but critically dependencies using different epochs work together) is something I would love to be adopted in D. In any case I just wanted to give the feedback that from my point of view the main thing that keeps me coming back to it for new projects is vibe.d. Thus I'm in favor of making vibe.d a big part of the selling point and design considerations for D going forward. Already tried. Good luck with that... ;)
DotfiM v0.0.1 - A dotfile manager
Thought I'd try a release of this project of mine which I find very useful. https://github.com/Timoses/dotfim DotfiM is capable of syncing your dotfiles across machines via a git repository. Simply download DotfiM, build it and run `dotfim sync `. DotfiM asks if you would like to install all the dotfiles in the git repository to your local home folder. DotfiM is very useful if you set up your environment via dotfiles. This could include your vim setup or how your shell looks and behaves. The goal of DotfiM is to take your environment setup anywhere you go. DotfiM will create two sections in a synced dotfile: - One section is synchronized to the git repository - another is only kept locally I'd be thrilled to hear if it works for you. Let me know of any issues or ideas you might have. Note that I've started this project almost a year ago when I was still in "Dinfant shoes". What is a dotfile? Basically, it's a configuration file on UNIX systems and can be used to customize your environment.
Re: I have a plan.. I really DO
I don't normally contribute a lot here but as I've been using a fair mix of C/C++, D and Rust lately for a variety of projects from game dev to web to services, I have a few thoughts. Without exhaustively comparing the different pros/cons of the languages, the most important thing that makes me pick D for a project these days is actually vibe.d. It's the perfect balance between letting me expose my low level stuff as a network/web service easily while not trying to take over too much of my application or conversely get me to manually write async network state machines. I'd happily argue that its cooperative fiber model is actually superior to C#'s, and while it's not quite to the level of Go (mostly just because it's not as ubiquitously supported in the standard library), I'll still happily take the trade-off to use a language closer to C/C++. Rust's web framework and cooperative fiber story is still just forming, and I have some concern they'll go down the C# route which while better than nothing, isn't quite as nice as vibe.d where any function can effectively be part of a cooperative fiber without the need for infectious markup everywhere. Rust's syntax is also a fair bit different than C/C++ which makes it harder to collaborate with people for the moment, while D's is close enough that anyone with a decent amount of C/C++ experience can jump in pretty quickly. In terms of what makes me *not* want to use D, while GC is certainly a factor in some uses, in more cases it's actually that I want more language and compiler stability. While things have calmed down somewhat in the past year the number of times a D update has broken code (mine or code in a dependency) and left me trying to debug someone else's code deep in a library somewhere when I'm trying to just do a small update has been far too high. Rust's "stable" branch and their new epochs model (where the language can change every few years but critically dependencies using different epochs work together) is something I would love to be adopted in D. In any case I just wanted to give the feedback that from my point of view the main thing that keeps me coming back to it for new projects is vibe.d. Thus I'm in favor of making vibe.d a big part of the selling point and design considerations for D going forward.
Re: I have a plan.. I really DO
On Saturday, 30 June 2018 at 07:11:18 UTC, Joakim wrote: On Saturday, 30 June 2018 at 06:52:01 UTC, Ecstatic Coder wrote: On Friday, 29 June 2018 at 22:59:25 UTC, bachmeier wrote: On Friday, 29 June 2018 at 20:13:07 UTC, Ecstatic Coder wrote: Have a look at Crystal's Github project, you will see that Crystal, still in development and quite far from its 1.0 mile version (= despite no parallism and windows support, etc) ALREADY has 11206 stars, 881 forks and 292 contributors : https://github.com/crystal-lang/crystal Not bad for a language in its 0.25 version and first released in June 2014 (4 years), especially compared to D in its 2.0 version and first released in December 2001 (16 years), whose official compiler has 1806 stars, 452 forks and 168 contributors : https://github.com/dlang/dmd If those numbers means anything, I think its that Crystal is probably getting popularity much quicker than D, and honestly, after having tried it, I think it's really deserved, even if I agree that there are still many things that remain to be implemented before it's really ready for an official "production-ready" 1.0 release. Do you by chance work as a manager? Managers like comparisons that involve one number, with a higher number being better. I don't know what can be learned about D from that comparison and I don't think anyone else does either. That's your opinion. First, most managers don't become manager by chance, but because of their skills. Like being able to take the right decisions, based on facts, not on personal preferences. For instance, if a good manager sees that the github project of a 4 years old compiler has been liked by 11206 persons, and the github project of a 16 years old compiler has been liked by 1806 persons, I think he could probably think that MUCH more people are interested in the development of the first github project than in the second. I'd hope a manager would look at actually meaningful stats like downloads, rather than just fluffy stats such as "likes": http://www.somsubhra.com/github-release-stats/?username=crystal-lang=crystal http://www.somsubhra.com/github-release-stats/?username=ldc-developers=ldc I see around 9k total downloads of the various Crystal 0.24 and 0.25 versions over the last 8 months, compared to 14k downloads of the ldc 1.9 compiler alone from two months ago. Of course, all these stats can be gamed, but I think it'd be hard to argue Crystal is more popular. Anyway, I you think that Crystal is not worth our attention, it's your right. But my PERSONAL opinion is that Crystal will soon become a great alternative to D, Go and Rust for web server development, while I still think that D is BY FAR a much better language than Go or Rust. So now we can try to analyze what make Crystal a useful and popular language in this domain and learn lessons from it, or simply ignore it. Very honestly I don't care, because I exclusively use D as a file processing scripting language, and I'm very happy with D in its current state. And to be perfectly clear on that point, its current syntax is perfect, very simple and concise, and if DON'T want any change made to its current syntax which would make it less simple and concise when using it in GC mode.
Re: I have a plan.. I really DO
On Saturday, 30 June 2018 at 07:28:24 UTC, Ecstatic Coder wrote: On Saturday, 30 June 2018 at 07:11:18 UTC, Joakim wrote: On Saturday, 30 June 2018 at 06:52:01 UTC, Ecstatic Coder wrote: [...] I'd hope a manager would look at actually meaningful stats like downloads, rather than just fluffy stats such as "likes": http://www.somsubhra.com/github-release-stats/?username=crystal-lang=crystal http://www.somsubhra.com/github-release-stats/?username=ldc-developers=ldc I see around 9k total downloads of the various Crystal 0.24 and 0.25 versions over the last 8 months, compared to 14k downloads of the ldc 1.9 compiler alone from two months ago. Of course, all these stats can be gamed, but I think it'd be hard to argue Crystal is more popular. Obviously you haven't read my post. No problem, I'll repeat it. I said that Crystal is probably gaining popularity FASTER than D. I've never said that Crystal is more used than D. FYI, D is in the top 50 at the TIOBE index, while Crystal is only in the top 100. Of course, you will tell me that these rankings are numbers, and that a higher number means nothing. Right ? I'll tell you that all data should be carefully vetted before using it to draw conclusions. For example, I just checked and the ldc data includes a download for every CI run, which skews it upwards, but I doubt enough to change my conclusion above: https://github.com/ldc-developers/ldc/blob/master/.circleci/config.yml#L62
Re: I have a plan.. I really DO
On Saturday, 30 June 2018 at 07:11:18 UTC, Joakim wrote: On Saturday, 30 June 2018 at 06:52:01 UTC, Ecstatic Coder wrote: On Friday, 29 June 2018 at 22:59:25 UTC, bachmeier wrote: On Friday, 29 June 2018 at 20:13:07 UTC, Ecstatic Coder wrote: Have a look at Crystal's Github project, you will see that Crystal, still in development and quite far from its 1.0 mile version (= despite no parallism and windows support, etc) ALREADY has 11206 stars, 881 forks and 292 contributors : https://github.com/crystal-lang/crystal Not bad for a language in its 0.25 version and first released in June 2014 (4 years), especially compared to D in its 2.0 version and first released in December 2001 (16 years), whose official compiler has 1806 stars, 452 forks and 168 contributors : https://github.com/dlang/dmd If those numbers means anything, I think its that Crystal is probably getting popularity much quicker than D, and honestly, after having tried it, I think it's really deserved, even if I agree that there are still many things that remain to be implemented before it's really ready for an official "production-ready" 1.0 release. Do you by chance work as a manager? Managers like comparisons that involve one number, with a higher number being better. I don't know what can be learned about D from that comparison and I don't think anyone else does either. That's your opinion. First, most managers don't become manager by chance, but because of their skills. Like being able to take the right decisions, based on facts, not on personal preferences. For instance, if a good manager sees that the github project of a 4 years old compiler has been liked by 11206 persons, and the github project of a 16 years old compiler has been liked by 1806 persons, I think he could probably think that MUCH more people are interested in the development of the first github project than in the second. I'd hope a manager would look at actually meaningful stats like downloads, rather than just fluffy stats such as "likes": http://www.somsubhra.com/github-release-stats/?username=crystal-lang=crystal http://www.somsubhra.com/github-release-stats/?username=ldc-developers=ldc I see around 9k total downloads of the various Crystal 0.24 and 0.25 versions over the last 8 months, compared to 14k downloads of the ldc 1.9 compiler alone from two months ago. Of course, all these stats can be gamed, but I think it'd be hard to argue Crystal is more popular. Obviously you haven't read my post. No problem, I'll repeat it. I said that Crystal is probably gaining popularity FASTER than D. I've never said that Crystal is more used than D. FYI, D is in the top 50 at the TIOBE index, while Crystal is only in the top 100. Of course, you will tell me that these rankings are numbers, and that a higher number means nothing. Right ?
Re: I have a plan.. I really DO
DasBetterC resolves that, though the library issue remains. Indeed. Unfortunately, it's often the standard library which makes the difference between a nice language, and a nice useful language. D is a great language not only because of the many great decisions you made when designing the language (UFCS, slice-based strings and arrays, etc), but also because of its great standard library, which is well designed and very complete. To be really useful as a C++ alternative, D still needs another standard library based on reference counting, instead of garbage collection, even if this implies that some class interfaces will have to diverge from their GC-based counterpart. Without that, D will be a bit like a gun without ammunitions for many developers. And Rust, despite it has perfect C/C++-like performance D has perfect C/C++ like performance, if you code it the same way. +1 :)
Re: I have a plan.. I really DO
On Saturday, 30 June 2018 at 06:52:01 UTC, Ecstatic Coder wrote: On Friday, 29 June 2018 at 22:59:25 UTC, bachmeier wrote: On Friday, 29 June 2018 at 20:13:07 UTC, Ecstatic Coder wrote: Have a look at Crystal's Github project, you will see that Crystal, still in development and quite far from its 1.0 mile version (= despite no parallism and windows support, etc) ALREADY has 11206 stars, 881 forks and 292 contributors : https://github.com/crystal-lang/crystal Not bad for a language in its 0.25 version and first released in June 2014 (4 years), especially compared to D in its 2.0 version and first released in December 2001 (16 years), whose official compiler has 1806 stars, 452 forks and 168 contributors : https://github.com/dlang/dmd If those numbers means anything, I think its that Crystal is probably getting popularity much quicker than D, and honestly, after having tried it, I think it's really deserved, even if I agree that there are still many things that remain to be implemented before it's really ready for an official "production-ready" 1.0 release. Do you by chance work as a manager? Managers like comparisons that involve one number, with a higher number being better. I don't know what can be learned about D from that comparison and I don't think anyone else does either. That's your opinion. First, most managers don't become manager by chance, but because of their skills. Like being able to take the right decisions, based on facts, not on personal preferences. For instance, if a good manager sees that the github project of a 4 years old compiler has been liked by 11206 persons, and the github project of a 16 years old compiler has been liked by 1806 persons, I think he could probably think that MUCH more people are interested in the development of the first github project than in the second. I'd hope a manager would look at actually meaningful stats like downloads, rather than just fluffy stats such as "likes": http://www.somsubhra.com/github-release-stats/?username=crystal-lang=crystal http://www.somsubhra.com/github-release-stats/?username=ldc-developers=ldc I see around 9k total downloads of the various Crystal 0.24 and 0.25 versions over the last 8 months, compared to 14k downloads of the ldc 1.9 compiler alone from two months ago. Of course, all these stats can be gamed, but I think it'd be hard to argue Crystal is more popular.
Re: I have a plan.. I really DO
On Friday, 29 June 2018 at 22:59:25 UTC, bachmeier wrote: On Friday, 29 June 2018 at 20:13:07 UTC, Ecstatic Coder wrote: Have a look at Crystal's Github project, you will see that Crystal, still in development and quite far from its 1.0 mile version (= despite no parallism and windows support, etc) ALREADY has 11206 stars, 881 forks and 292 contributors : https://github.com/crystal-lang/crystal Not bad for a language in its 0.25 version and first released in June 2014 (4 years), especially compared to D in its 2.0 version and first released in December 2001 (16 years), whose official compiler has 1806 stars, 452 forks and 168 contributors : https://github.com/dlang/dmd If those numbers means anything, I think its that Crystal is probably getting popularity much quicker than D, and honestly, after having tried it, I think it's really deserved, even if I agree that there are still many things that remain to be implemented before it's really ready for an official "production-ready" 1.0 release. Do you by chance work as a manager? Managers like comparisons that involve one number, with a higher number being better. I don't know what can be learned about D from that comparison and I don't think anyone else does either. That's your opinion. First, most managers don't become manager by chance, but because of their skills. Like being able to take the right decisions, based on facts, not on personal preferences. For instance, if a good manager sees that the github project of a 4 years old compiler has been liked by 11206 persons, and the github project of a 16 years old compiler has been liked by 1806 persons, I think he could probably think that MUCH more people are interested in the development of the first github project than in the second. But if you want to think the opposite, it's perfectly your right, I've got not problem with that.
