Re: D Language Foundation June 2022 Monthly Meeting Summary
On Friday, 24 June 2022 at 14:27:17 UTC, Mike Parker wrote: The monthly meeting for June 2022 took place on June 10. Thanks, I like to read these summaries - keep 'em coming! This one had so much news that it was almost a D blog post.
Re: D Language Foundation June 2022 Monthly Meeting Summary
On Monday, 27 June 2022 at 11:53:25 UTC, matheus wrote: https://redirect.invidious.io/watch?v=bNJhtKPugSQ Matheus. Thank you very much. I downloaded it.It's `incredible`.
Re: D Language Foundation June 2022 Monthly Meeting Summary
On Friday, 24 June 2022 at 14:27:17 UTC, Mike Parker wrote: I'm sure someone will ask when it will be published. I'm still holding to my promise that we'll get it done before DConf. My original plan was to wait until the entire document was finalized, but I now intend to publish the high-level portion once the final draft is approved, then add the rest to it at some point in July. Update: I've submitted the revised document to everyone who was present at the meeting (plus Max and Andrei) for review. I've asked them to look it over and get back to me ASAP. I'm hoping to receive their final feedback in time to publish on Thursday or Friday. Again, the document consists only of the high-level goals at this point. I'll draft and finalize as much of the remainder as I can before I fly to London late next month.
Re: D Language Foundation June 2022 Monthly Meeting Summary
On Saturday, 25 June 2022 at 02:10:34 UTC, zjh wrote: On Saturday, 25 June 2022 at 02:02:36 UTC, Paul Backus wrote: The best introduction is probably Walter Bright's DConf 2016 talk, "Spelunking D Compiler Internals": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNJhtKPugSQ I can't access `'Youtube'`. It would be better if there were `articles` to detailed introduce it. Now I only know the general purpose of each `'DMD'` file which `D` author introduced, and I don't know anything more details. Can't you access any indivious instances: https://redirect.invidious.io/watch?v=bNJhtKPugSQ ? Matheus.
Re: D Language Foundation June 2022 Monthly Meeting Summary
On Saturday, 25 June 2022 at 02:02:36 UTC, Paul Backus wrote: The best introduction is probably Walter Bright's DConf 2016 talk. I searched the `'PDF'` version. After reading it, I still felt it was not very `detailed`. I think it can be more detailed. It's already `'2016'` version, and some of the content may be outdated. It would be better to explain it in more detail. Also, you says that `'DMD'` has been unable to realize its `feature` well and correctly. I think `'DMD'` should be radically restructured . In fact, most refactoring is to move the `position` of the function .Or to split `large functions` into small `ones`. As long as it pass the test, `D` should constantly `refactor`. I feel that the existing `'reconstruction'` is too slowly.
Re: D Language Foundation June 2022 Monthly Meeting Summary
On Saturday, 25 June 2022 at 02:02:36 UTC, Paul Backus wrote: The best introduction is probably Walter Bright's DConf 2016 talk, "Spelunking D Compiler Internals": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNJhtKPugSQ I can't access `'Youtube'`. It would be better if there were `articles` to detailed introduce it. Now I only know the general purpose of each `'DMD'` file which `D` author introduced, and I don't know anything more details.
Re: D Language Foundation June 2022 Monthly Meeting Summary
On Saturday, 25 June 2022 at 01:50:32 UTC, zjh wrote: On Friday, 24 June 2022 at 14:27:17 UTC, Mike Parker wrote: ... I think there should be a more detailed introduction to `'DMD'`. The best introduction is probably Walter Bright's DConf 2016 talk, "Spelunking D Compiler Internals": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNJhtKPugSQ
Re: D Language Foundation June 2022 Monthly Meeting Summary
On Friday, 24 June 2022 at 14:27:17 UTC, Mike Parker wrote: ... I think there should be a more detailed introduction to `'DMD'`. There should also be a `list` of `'small problems'` in an obvious place ,to allow more people to participate in `'DMD'`, which is very exciting for `learners`. Let `'professional'` people do difficult problems, and let `'ordinary'` d programmers solve `'simple'` problems. In this way, `D` can save time.
Re: D Language Foundation June 2022 Monthly Meeting Summary
On Saturday, 25 June 2022 at 01:39:25 UTC, Paul Backus wrote: Just want to say, thanks for writing up these summaries every month. I'm sure it's not the most exciting work, but the transparency is very much appreciated. Thanks! I don't enjoy writing them, but I am glad someone suggested it. It's good to be able to point to a summary of topics discussed and decisions made when questions come up weeks and months down the road.
Re: D Language Foundation June 2022 Monthly Meeting Summary
On Saturday, 25 June 2022 at 01:36:12 UTC, Adam D Ruppe wrote: On Saturday, 25 June 2022 at 01:11:26 UTC, Mike Parker wrote: we took a vote on it and rejected it Who are "we"? Where's the roll call? The list of attendees and a summary of the meeting are here: https://forum.dlang.org/post/fnzuguuewsvzswpwi...@forum.dlang.org
Re: D Language Foundation June 2022 Monthly Meeting Summary
On Friday, 24 June 2022 at 14:27:17 UTC, Mike Parker wrote: The monthly meeting for June 2022 took place on June 10. Just want to say, thanks for writing up these summaries every month. I'm sure it's not the most exciting work, but the transparency is very much appreciated.
Re: D Language Foundation June 2022 Monthly Meeting Summary
On Saturday, 25 June 2022 at 01:11:26 UTC, Mike Parker wrote: we took a vote on it and rejected it Who are "we"? Where's the roll call?
Re: D Language Foundation June 2022 Monthly Meeting Summary
On Saturday, 25 June 2022 at 00:40:44 UTC, Adam Ruppe wrote: I wrote up a thing in my blog about what I'd like to see from dips and the steering of the language and there might be some overlap with your vision document concepts: http://dpldocs.info/this-week-in-d/Blog.Posted_2022_06_20.html Cool. Then let's not let it go to waste. You should bring it to a meeting so we can discuss it. Our upcoming July meeting is a quarterly meeting with the industry folks, so that's likely to be a long one. Then our August meeting will happen in person at DConf. So if you want to come and talk about what you've written here, then I can make that our big agenda item for our September meeting (unless you decide to join us in London :-)). We had a meeting last fall where Mathias brought a proposal for a steering committee. There was a good discussion about it, then we took a vote on it and rejected it. Right now, I can speculate that it would still get voted down, but you still should come in and make your case. As for the DIP process, I'm always open to changes as long as they don't skew toward making it too easy (such that we get inundated with DIPs for every idea someone has) or too onerous (such that no one submits any DIPs at all). And please, for anyone reading this, let's not debate the current state of the DIP process in this thread. If you'd like to do that, please start a new thread in the General forums.
Re: D Language Foundation June 2022 Monthly Meeting Summary
I wrote up a thing in my blog about what I'd like to see from dips and the steering of the language and there might be some overlap with your vision document concepts: http://dpldocs.info/this-week-in-d/Blog.Posted_2022_06_20.html
D Language Foundation June 2022 Monthly Meeting Summary
The monthly meeting for June 2022 took place on June 10. The following Foundation staff and D contributors attended: * Walter Bright * Iain Buclaw * Ali Çehreli * Martin Kinkelin * Dennis Korpel * Mathias Lang * Átila Neves * Razvan Nitu * Mike Parker * Robert Schadek The purpose of this meeting was to revise the latest draft of the Vision Document. I don't have a whole lot to summarize, as the document itself will reflect what we discussed, but I will provide some background for those who haven't been following along. ## Background We first started discussing a new vision document last summer. This was a direct response to people bringing up "a lack of vision" in the forums. It's one of those things all of us would like to have, but there's always something that takes higher priority. So I put it on a meeting agenda so that we could get something started. For a little while, Andrei used to post a kind of vision document to the D Wiki twice a year. It included a list of items showing some of the progress made in the previous six months, and a list of goals to accomplish for the next six months. I thought we should do something different, as that's more of a task list than a vision. My initial concept was a living document describing what Walter and Átila were each focused on, followed by a list of things they intended to do in the future, and a list of things that would be nice to do in the future, resources permitting. These lists would be accompanied by potential tasks contributors could choose to take on in order to make the most impact. I asked Walter and Átila to send me a write up of the things they were focused on. I would take that, write up the rest of the document, and then we could revise it and release it. It's an understatement to say we took our time. The vision document was low on the priority list for each of us, and there was always a higher priority task to get done. That said, it was still on my mind. And I began to reconsider the format. I realized that the format we had was just an evolution of Andrei's version of the vision document. There was no "high-level" vision, no overarching goals. So at our monthly meeting in February, we scheduled a separate meeting to focus on what I referred to as a "vision statement" (you can read about it [in the summary of the February meeting](https://forum.dlang.org/post/qrtjqubrbuqeiffun...@forum.dlang.org)). We brainstormed a number of goals, some high-level, some low. My task after the meeting was to take this list of ideas and craft it into a coherent vision statement. I would put this statement (a paragraph or two) at the top of the document, and follow that up with three sections: Current Focus, Future Focus, and Wishlist. Eventually, I decided that version of the document wasn't going to cut it either. We need more than just one or two paragraphs stating high-level goals. We need a list of high-level goals and details describing what they mean. [So at our May 2022 meeting](https://forum.dlang.org/post/uhgndrcnekedjqtar...@forum.dlang.org), I proposed that our next monthly meeting be devoted to finalizing that list of high-level goals. ## The June meeting Before the meeting, I had to come up with the initial list. I took the brainstormed ideas from the vision meeting, sorted them into categories of high-level goals, and fleshed them out with definitions and examples. At the meeting, everyone provided feedback on the language, the level of detail, and the existing categories. We added a new category, cut some things, added some information in existing categories, and had good discussions about the language, the standard library, the ecosystem, and the community. My task after the meeting was to make all the suggested revisions. I expect to finish that this weekend. I'll then submit it to the others for a final round of feedback, and I'll ask them to make it a top priority so that it doesn't fall out of sight. I expect we'll have this portion of the document finalized some time next week. The next step is to add the sections for the Current Focus, Future Focus, and the Wishlist. I've also decided to add a Contributing section, listing specific tasks contributors can carry out, rather than including them in the other sections. ## Other notes I want to make it clear here that none of us involved in these meetings or in the core development and maintenance of D are oblivious to the complaints about lack of vision or bad management. All of us want to do what we can to turn things around. People will always find something to complain about, but we all want to see the day where there are no grounds to complain about a lack of vision or management. I'll be talking a little about this in my DConf talk, but we are actively looking at ways to improve the situation. We want to start by focusing on the community and their contributors. As a few examples of what I
