Re: Bountysource activity
On 03/13/2014 07:40 PM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote: Looks like most of these are on compiler bugs. The only Phobos one is the std.getopt one, however its situation is two abandoned patches and no clear goal as to what constitutes a change worthy of marking the issue as fixed and paying out the bounty. I made another PR for that one.
Re: Bountysource activity
On 13/03/2014 18:20, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: https://www.bountysource.com/issues/1325905-shared-phobos-library-doesn-t-work-on-all-linux-distributions Over $2000 in open bounties left: https://www.bountysource.com/trackers/383571-d-programming-language https://www.bountysource.com/trackers/455080-gdc https://www.bountysource.com/trackers/283332-ldc Andrei I've added a bounty for GDC to produce Windows binary releases! https://www.bountysource.com/issues/1523615-build-script-and-infrastructure-to-produce-and-release-windows-binaries -- Bruno Medeiros https://twitter.com/brunodomedeiros
Re: Bountysource activity
On Friday, 14 March 2014 at 23:54:48 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: On 3/14/14, 11:43 AM, Dicebot wrote: When can we expect first upstream pull requests done from Facebook camp? :P Soon enough. Andrei This is one of best D-related things I have heard lately. Looking forward to it!
Re: Bountysource activity
On 3/15/14, Dicebot pub...@dicebot.lv wrote: This is one of best D-related things I have heard lately. Looking forward to it! They'll get to experience that fast pull/review/merge cycle we're so used to. :P
Re: Bountysource activity
On Thursday, 13 March 2014 at 18:40:01 UTC, Vladimir Panteleev wrote: On Thursday, 13 March 2014 at 18:20:16 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: https://www.bountysource.com/issues/1325905-shared-phobos-library-doesn-t-work-on-all-linux-distributions Over $2000 in open bounties left: https://www.bountysource.com/trackers/383571-d-programming-language Looks like most of these are on compiler bugs. The only Phobos one is the std.getopt one, however its situation is two abandoned patches and no clear goal as to what constitutes a change worthy of marking the issue as fixed and paying out the bounty. +1 As for the compiler bugs... well, all of these are HARD, at least from the perspective of someone inexperienced with DMD's codebase. If they were easy, they'd have been solved already. DMD is not something you can easily dive into and start moving code around to fix big problems. Speaking from experience, it wasn't once that a 50-line patch would take me days to author and debug. And even if I were to manage through, the chances are high that the patch ends up crap because you need a lot of knowledge about how the compiler works to understand what's a good idea, and what isn't. Not even Kenji's pulls are always approved. +1 It's hard to dive into dmd's codebase. And probably it takes a lot of time to understand it and to feel confortable enought to try some fixes. Fixing phobos bugs probably is quite easier for a D user. You just need to know phobos and D to fix a bug and you don't need compiler-related topics. I think that in this case a small reward could fight the lazyness of users.
Re: Bountysource activity
On 3/14/14, 1:44 AM, Andrea Fontana wrote: Fixing phobos bugs probably is quite easier for a D user. You just need to know phobos and D to fix a bug and you don't need compiler-related topics. I think that in this case a small reward could fight the lazyness of users. Good point. Then let's choose a set of important Phobos bugs for putting bounties on. Andrei
Re: Bountysource activity
On Friday, 14 March 2014 at 09:47:19 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: On 3/14/14, 1:44 AM, Andrea Fontana wrote: Fixing phobos bugs probably is quite easier for a D user. You just need to know phobos and D to fix a bug and you don't need compiler-related topics. I think that in this case a small reward could fight the lazyness of users. Good point. Then let's choose a set of important Phobos bugs for putting bounties on. Andrei You should launch a poll select your top-five phobos bugs to fix
Re: Bountysource activity
On Friday, 14 March 2014 at 01:19:11 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: On 3/13/14, 6:14 PM, Nick Sabalausky wrote: On 3/13/2014 9:05 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: What would make the amounts interesting? Just taking a stab in the dark here but...greater numbers are probably more interesting numbers? :) (Sorry I can't be more helpful/specific than that.) Yah, I meant HOW MUCH would make the amounts interesting? Andrei How about a salaried position at Facebook as a D language developer ;)
Re: Bountysource activity
On Friday, 14 March 2014 at 12:26:11 UTC, John Colvin wrote: On Friday, 14 March 2014 at 01:19:11 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: On 3/13/14, 6:14 PM, Nick Sabalausky wrote: On 3/13/2014 9:05 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: What would make the amounts interesting? Just taking a stab in the dark here but...greater numbers are probably more interesting numbers? :) (Sorry I can't be more helpful/specific than that.) Yah, I meant HOW MUCH would make the amounts interesting? Andrei How about a salaried position at Facebook as a D language developer ;) This. If Facebook is truly interested into D success, hiring some programmers to work on DMD/Phobos full-time is best thing that can possibly be done. But as far as I understand management is not yet ready for such investment.
Re: Bountysource activity
On 3/14/2014 9:22 AM, Dicebot wrote: On Friday, 14 March 2014 at 12:26:11 UTC, John Colvin wrote: How about a salaried position at Facebook as a D language developer ;) This. If Facebook is truly interested into D success, hiring some programmers to work on DMD/Phobos full-time is best thing that can possibly be done. But as far as I understand management is not yet ready for such investment. Well they DO have Andrei!
Re: Bountysource activity
On 3/14/14, 6:22 AM, Dicebot wrote: This. If Facebook is truly interested into D success, hiring some programmers to work on DMD/Phobos full-time is best thing that can possibly be done. But as far as I understand management is not yet ready for such investment. Facebook is unique (for its size and impact) in that it doesn't hire for a team, project, or specific position. Instead, it hires for the generic position Software Engineer. Once in, the company has a policy of high internal mobility that gives people a lot of leeway in what they work on. This means there's no guarantee one would work in or on D upon hiring. That said, since recently there are too many D internal projects for me to oversee so if anything I'm lacking headcount. Things happen organically here. The best way to increase Facebook's involvement in D is to hire more people interested in D. Andrei
Re: Bountysource activity
Andrei Alexandrescu wrote in message news:53231aa4.1020...@erdani.org... That said, since recently there are too many D internal projects for me to oversee so if anything I'm lacking headcount. Awesome!
Re: Bountysource activity
On 14 March 2014 15:05, Andrei Alexandrescu seewebsiteforem...@erdani.org wrote: On 3/14/14, 6:22 AM, Dicebot wrote: This. If Facebook is truly interested into D success, hiring some programmers to work on DMD/Phobos full-time is best thing that can possibly be done. But as far as I understand management is not yet ready for such investment. Facebook is unique (for its size and impact) in that it doesn't hire for a team, project, or specific position. Instead, it hires for the generic position Software Engineer. Once in, the company has a policy of high internal mobility that gives people a lot of leeway in what they work on. This means there's no guarantee one would work in or on D upon hiring. That said, since recently there are too many D internal projects for me to oversee so if anything I'm lacking headcount. Try taking off your socks, I find that helps in counting *really high* numbers. ;)
Re: Bountysource activity
On Friday, 14 March 2014 at 15:05:09 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: On 3/14/14, 6:22 AM, Dicebot wrote: This. If Facebook is truly interested into D success, hiring some programmers to work on DMD/Phobos full-time is best thing that can possibly be done. But as far as I understand management is not yet ready for such investment. Facebook is unique (for its size and impact) in that it doesn't hire for a team, project, or specific position. Instead, it hires for the generic position Software Engineer. Once in, the company has a policy of high internal mobility that gives people a lot of leeway in what they work on. Yeah and this is both cool and limiting at the same time. Probably not hiring as part of main team but some sort of short-term contract? Consider myself one year ago (before joining Sociomantic) - I would not seriously consider applying to Facebook in general but if there was an option of devoting myself to full-time DMD hacking, I'd definitely go for it if that can cover my basic bills (which for sure is much less than typical Facebook engineer costs ;)) This means there's no guarantee one would work in or on D upon hiring. That said, since recently there are too many D internal projects for me to oversee so if anything I'm lacking headcount. This actually sounds very cool! :) I did not know that there is much anticipation apart from you experiments that has resulted in announced lint tool (and the fact that deadalnix now comes to IRC from facebook IP). When can we expect first upstream pull requests done from Facebook camp? :P
Re: Bountysource activity
On 3/14/14, 11:43 AM, Dicebot wrote: When can we expect first upstream pull requests done from Facebook camp? :P Soon enough. Andrei
Re: Bountysource activity
On Friday, 14 March 2014 at 10:56:21 UTC, Andrea Fontana wrote: On Friday, 14 March 2014 at 09:47:19 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: On 3/14/14, 1:44 AM, Andrea Fontana wrote: Fixing phobos bugs probably is quite easier for a D user. You just need to know phobos and D to fix a bug and you don't need compiler-related topics. I think that in this case a small reward could fight the lazyness of users. Good point. Then let's choose a set of important Phobos bugs for putting bounties on. Andrei You should launch a poll select your top-five phobos bugs to fix All one has to do is take the time to vote in bugzilla. The vote tally appears to be automatically reflected in Bounty Source.
Re: Bountysource activity
Nick recently did a patch for this one: https://www.bountysource.com/issues/1327154-dmd-never-inlines-functions-that-could-throw+ we've had a lot of movement on this one https://www.bountysource.com/issues/1326911-dtoh-utility-convert-d-files-to-c-header-files and it pretty well works now waiting on the OK to merge: https://github.com/D-Programming-Language/tools/pull/39 Generally though, I don't think the bounties are going to change much behavior; the only issues that will be addressed are the ones that we were going to do anyway, since the dollar amount is just too small to change a business decision. Take multiple alias this for example. I've looked at the dmd source for that before and judged it would be a pretty big job - probably a week devoted to it, if not more. The bounty is $100 so that's, what, $2/hour? There's very little practical difference between that and doing it just because I felt like it; financially, I'd be better off flipping burgers. No real change to the incentive.
Re: Bountysource activity
On Thursday, 13 March 2014 at 18:20:16 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: https://www.bountysource.com/issues/1325905-shared-phobos-library-doesn-t-work-on-all-linux-distributions Over $2000 in open bounties left: https://www.bountysource.com/trackers/383571-d-programming-language Looks like most of these are on compiler bugs. The only Phobos one is the std.getopt one, however its situation is two abandoned patches and no clear goal as to what constitutes a change worthy of marking the issue as fixed and paying out the bounty. As for the compiler bugs... well, all of these are HARD, at least from the perspective of someone inexperienced with DMD's codebase. If they were easy, they'd have been solved already. DMD is not something you can easily dive into and start moving code around to fix big problems. Speaking from experience, it wasn't once that a 50-line patch would take me days to author and debug. And even if I were to manage through, the chances are high that the patch ends up crap because you need a lot of knowledge about how the compiler works to understand what's a good idea, and what isn't. Not even Kenji's pulls are always approved. However, the biggest problem is the open pull request count. What good is authoring a patch if no one wants to take time to review it? IMHO, we don't need more bug bounties - we need REVIEWER bounties. Some way to convince more experienced D developers to review others' contributions. I have a number of open DMD pull requests myself, and sometimes I consider bribing someone to just look at them.
Re: Bountysource activity
On Thursday, 13 March 2014 at 18:38:45 UTC, Adam D. Ruppe wrote: Nick recently did a patch for this one: https://www.bountysource.com/issues/1327154-dmd-never-inlines-functions-that-could-throw+ we've had a lot of movement on this one https://www.bountysource.com/issues/1326911-dtoh-utility-convert-d-files-to-c-header-files and it pretty well works now waiting on the OK to merge: https://github.com/D-Programming-Language/tools/pull/39 Generally though, I don't think the bounties are going to change much behavior; the only issues that will be addressed are the ones that we were going to do anyway, since the dollar amount is just too small to change a business decision. Take multiple alias this for example. I've looked at the dmd source for that before and judged it would be a pretty big job - probably a week devoted to it, if not more. The bounty is $100 so that's, what, $2/hour? There's very little practical difference between that and doing it just because I felt like it; financially, I'd be better off flipping burgers. No real change to the incentive. The difference is though that people are working on problems, hard problems even, with the compiler already for free. I for one wouldn't mind getting a $100 for fixing something I already have an interest in fixing. In other words, I don't think they do any harm.
Re: Bountysource activity
On 3/13/14, Vladimir Panteleev vladi...@thecybershadow.net wrote: However, the biggest problem is the open pull request count. What good is authoring a patch if no one wants to take time to review it? IMHO, we don't need more bug bounties - we need REVIEWER bounties. Some way to convince more experienced D developers to review others' contributions. I have a number of open DMD pull requests myself, and sometimes I consider bribing someone to just look at them. I think I know what's causing this stalling. As more bugs get fixed the bugs that are left opened are the ones which are the most complicated to fix (essentially most of the easy ones are fixed already). E.g. Kenji tends to tackle more and more complex and intricate bugs. So these complicated DMD changesets can only really be reviewed by people with intricate knowledge of the compiler. I don't think there's that many people around with that kind of knowledge. Personally, I've only ever tackled smaller bugs, most of Kenji's changesets go way over my head and I wouldn't be able to merge something like that with confidence, regardless of the autotester. You could easily substitute PHD with DMD on this page: http://matt.might.net/articles/phd-school-in-pictures/
Re: Bountysource activity
On Thursday, 13 March 2014 at 18:38:45 UTC, Adam D. Ruppe wrote: Generally though, I don't think the bounties are going to change much behavior; the only issues that will be addressed are the ones that we were going to do anyway, since the dollar amount is just too small to change a business decision. Take multiple alias this for example. I've looked at the dmd source for that before and judged it would be a pretty big job - probably a week devoted to it, if not more. The bounty is $100 so that's, what, $2/hour? There's very little practical difference between that and doing it just because I felt like it; financially, I'd be better off flipping burgers. No real change to the incentive. I agree with Adam. While I think it's great that you're taking the bounty approach, which I suggested sometime back, this isn't enough money to incentivize people much. It might get someone like Brad, who had these issues on his todo list anyway, to reorganize his list to put the bountied items on top, but it's not going to do much more than that. I still think D needs a paid compiler to drive real change, hopefully someone will use ldc with the closed patches model I laid out in this forum earlier and push that through.
Re: Bountysource activity
Adam D. Ruppe, el 13 de March a las 18:38 me escribiste: Nick recently did a patch for this one: https://www.bountysource.com/issues/1327154-dmd-never-inlines-functions-that-could-throw+ we've had a lot of movement on this one https://www.bountysource.com/issues/1326911-dtoh-utility-convert-d-files-to-c-header-files and it pretty well works now waiting on the OK to merge: https://github.com/D-Programming-Language/tools/pull/39 Generally though, I don't think the bounties are going to change much behavior; the only issues that will be addressed are the ones that we were going to do anyway, since the dollar amount is just too small to change a business decision. Take multiple alias this for example. I've looked at the dmd source for that before and judged it would be a pretty big job - probably a week devoted to it, if not more. The bounty is $100 so that's, what, $2/hour? There's very little practical difference between that and doing it just because I felt like it; financially, I'd be better off flipping burgers. No real change to the incentive. Yeah, I see the bounties more like a reward (OK, you fixed something I wanted to be fixed, there you go) than a motivator to fix issues (I don't think anybody will say Oh! I want to work in this issue because I can make $100!). Is still better than nothing, and at least a nice gesture to the community, but definitely not bounty-driven development :D -- Leandro Lucarella (AKA luca) http://llucax.com.ar/ -- Como un rinoceronte que lleva un pájaro en el lomo, yo te alimento, no te veo ni te toco.
Re: Bountysource activity
On 3/13/2014 2:38 PM, Adam D. Ruppe wrote: financially, I'd be better off flipping burgers. No real change to the incentive. I flipped burgers for a month when I was 16. Money being the same, I'd rather patch a compiler ;) But yea, if you do the math it does tend to work out less than minimum wage. Still, that's more than the $0/hr for most of the D contributions we're happy to do, so I'm not complaining. At the very least it can help support the coffee/snacks fund (ie, code fuel) for the next D contribution :)
Re: Bountysource activity
On 3/13/14, 11:38 AM, Adam D. Ruppe wrote: Nick recently did a patch for this one: https://www.bountysource.com/issues/1327154-dmd-never-inlines-functions-that-could-throw+ we've had a lot of movement on this one https://www.bountysource.com/issues/1326911-dtoh-utility-convert-d-files-to-c-header-files and it pretty well works now waiting on the OK to merge: https://github.com/D-Programming-Language/tools/pull/39 Thanks. Generally though, I don't think the bounties are going to change much behavior; the only issues that will be addressed are the ones that we were going to do anyway, since the dollar amount is just too small to change a business decision. Take multiple alias this for example. I've looked at the dmd source for that before and judged it would be a pretty big job - probably a week devoted to it, if not more. The bounty is $100 so that's, what, $2/hour? There's very little practical difference between that and doing it just because I felt like it; financially, I'd be better off flipping burgers. No real change to the incentive. What would make the amounts interesting? Andrei
Re: Bountysource activity
On 3/13/2014 9:05 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: What would make the amounts interesting? Just taking a stab in the dark here but...greater numbers are probably more interesting numbers? :) (Sorry I can't be more helpful/specific than that.)
Re: Bountysource activity
On 3/13/2014 4:48 PM, Andrej Mitrovic wrote: So these complicated DMD changesets can only really be reviewed by people with intricate knowledge of the compiler. I don't think there's that many people around with that kind of knowledge. I think that's a good, and important, point. And I think that's one thing that's good about the bounties: They can help encourage more people to become more knowledgeable about DMD's internals. It can help seed future DMD gurus.
Re: Bountysource activity
On 3/13/14, 6:14 PM, Nick Sabalausky wrote: On 3/13/2014 9:05 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: What would make the amounts interesting? Just taking a stab in the dark here but...greater numbers are probably more interesting numbers? :) (Sorry I can't be more helpful/specific than that.) Yah, I meant HOW MUCH would make the amounts interesting? Andrei
Re: Bountysource activity
On 3/13/14, 2:45 PM, Leandro Lucarella wrote: Is still better than nothing, and at least a nice gesture to the community, but definitely not bounty-driven development :D Probably we don't want that anyway. Where I'd hope to get is a point where bounties increase participation and dynamism, and steer work toward certain issues. Andrei
Re: Bountysource activity
On Friday, 14 March 2014 at 01:05:08 UTC, Nick Sabalausky wrote: Still, that's more than the $0/hr for most of the D contributions we're happy to do, so I'm not complaining. Aye, but it doesn't push you over the line from I'd like to do this but am too busy with other work or meh i don't care enough to actually doing it. I suspect one of those two states cover the majority of people who can but don't fix many D bugs today. So while the bounty might be a nice bonus for those who were already planning to do it anyway, it is unlikely to lead to any *new* bug fixes; the rate of bug closure before and after probably hasn't changed (I'm sure we could measure this too to confirm my gut feeling).
Re: Bountysource activity
On Friday, 14 March 2014 at 01:19:11 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: Yah, I meant HOW MUCH would make the amounts interesting? That's hard to say, but something around 5x larger would be enough for me at least to start doing D bugs instead of taking more PHP contracts - that'd put the bounty into decision /shaping/ territory instead of just being a bonus on top of an already-made decision because then it might be a viable sum of money to cover my bills in the time it takes to do it. Though, of course, if it sits idle in the review queue for a year, that'd be a problem too. I think a good move regardless would be to write up the review criteria and link them right from the readmes so authors know what they'll be expected to do and reviewers know what to look for. Then new reviewers can come on and just follow the procedure instead of deferring to the (already overloaded) handful of people who know what to do in their heads. This isn't a bad start: https://github.com/D-Programming-Language/phobos/blob/master/CONTRIBUTING.md but could use a lot more fleshing out
Re: Bountysource activity
On 3/13/2014 9:23 PM, Adam D. Ruppe wrote: On Friday, 14 March 2014 at 01:05:08 UTC, Nick Sabalausky wrote: Still, that's more than the $0/hr for most of the D contributions we're happy to do, so I'm not complaining. Aye, but it doesn't push you over the line from I'd like to do this but am too busy with other work or meh i don't care enough to actually doing it. Depends how well one's day job is going ;) And I do think it *can* be enough to tip the scales if someone is tempted but not entirely comitted - the final straw to say Ok, you know what, I think I *will* take a shot at that after all. But I think you may be right that it isn't exactly going to get a bunch of people clamoring over Ooooh!! I'm gonna go fix that one!! As far as what *would* to that though, I really don't know (I mean, beyond obviously silly answers like Three million!). FWIW, I think there *are* dangers in going too high with the bounties (and I can't believe I just said that ;) ). Don't want to end up with contention over who gets a bounty (esp if people had already made significant contributions towards something, and then a bounty gets posted and someone else swoops in for the last little bit). Also don't want to discourage people from bothering with non-bounty issues.
Re: Bountysource activity
On 3/13/2014 9:19 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: On 3/13/14, 6:14 PM, Nick Sabalausky wrote: On 3/13/2014 9:05 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: What would make the amounts interesting? Just taking a stab in the dark here but...greater numbers are probably more interesting numbers? :) (Sorry I can't be more helpful/specific than that.) Yah, I meant HOW MUCH would make the amounts interesting? Heh, yea. The best I can say is this: My gut feeling (aka best guess, emphasis on guess) is the general ballbark for interesting would be something comparable to a person's salary/wage for whatever amount of time the work would be expected to take. Ex: something that would probably take one full workday's worth of work would be interesting at approx whatever their day job's salary works out to per workday. Admittedly, that's a pretty vague answer, too.
Re: Bountysource activity
On 3/13/2014 2:40 PM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote: The only Phobos one is the std.getopt one, however its situation is two abandoned patches and no clear goal as to what constitutes a change worthy of marking the issue as fixed and paying out the bounty. Yea, this is actually a general issue I think needs addressed. Some of the bounties can be quite unclear on what exactly is expected in order to fulfill the bounty's requirements. The waters are muddied even more when other people have already made progress towards closing the issue (ex: All the years of work Don's already put into [CTFE] copy-on-write is slow and causes huge memory usage). I find there's bounties I'm more inclined to avoid just because I don't want to step on anyone's toes. Or because if I do X and Y for a bounty, I don't want to and worry about putting the bounty's backer in an awkward position, or accidentally looking greedy, just because there was also a Z I didn't know was expected (or maybe a performance improvement wasn't *enough* of an improvement) just because the issue wasn't well-defined. But maybe I'm just being socially paranoid?
Re: Bountysource activity
On Friday, 14 March 2014 at 01:16:57 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: Probably we don't want that anyway. Where I'd hope to get is a point where bounties increase participation and dynamism, and steer work toward certain issues. Andrei From my point of view, bounties won't be super efficient as attracting newer people, now matter how much money you put in it. From my perspective (soon-to-graduate student), there's lot of people that would like to participate to an open source project, but don't have the knowledges yet. Those who have are already involved anyway. Stepping in OSS code can feel like facing a giant behemoth, and getting familiar with a project, it's short/mid/long term goals, practices, do and don't is not easy, especially with D (a good example is the final-by-default discussion, where Dicebot pointed the schedule, while you were opposed to it, and most didn't knew about). Most of the issues are DMD issues. I wouldn't mind some extra bucks, but I know that getting familiar with DMD and bugfixing it will be far more rewarding that the $100 I could make. It would extend my knowledges and in the same time give me some code to show to a future employer. In addition, I also know that it will be a long time before I can solve any of the bug, as they require a lot of experience / knowledge of D. I think what D needs, to drive contributors in, is mentors. People that are displayed as contact points for people that wants to get involved. Then in triage, some bugs could be marked as Training bugs: ie, bugs that could be easy to fix, but should not be solved by experienced contributors before a certain period of time, unless there is a real need. This way, it would left the door open for newbie to step in, say they are interested in fixing the bug, and get a DMD guru to point them to the right way. I think someone mentionned that in the Broken thread, but D could use a documented governance model (something like a simplified Qt open governance model).
