Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-12-10 Thread eles

On Thursday, 31 October 2013 at 14:20:54 UTC, bearophile wrote:

eles:

Speaking about that, why DMD's source files are written in C++ 
but bear extension .c?


You seem to appreciate for yourselves a freedom that he denies 
to others.


Thank you for bringing that good example. Forbidding arbitrary 
extensions for D code, and enforcing a common standard name 
helps avoid mistakes like those .c extensions in the C++ 
sources, that numerous persons keep criticizing. The advantages 
of a standard suffix for D code are way larger than the 
disadvantages.


A computer doesn't mind if its programs are put to purposes that 
don't

match their names. -- D. Knuth

Well, then God created humans...



Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-12-10 Thread Frustrated

On Thursday, 31 October 2013 at 15:39:27 UTC, eles wrote:
On Thursday, 31 October 2013 at 15:34:37 UTC, dennis luehring 
wrote:

Am 31.10.2013 16:22, schrieb eles:

On Thursday, 31 October 2013 at 15:13:20 UTC, dennis luehring
wrote:

Am 31.10.2013 16:01, schrieb eles:
On Thursday, 31 October 2013 at 14:57:15 UTC, dennis 
luehring

wrote:

Am 31.10.2013 15:45, schrieb eles:
On Thursday, 31 October 2013 at 14:39:34 UTC, dennis 
luehring

wrote:

Am 31.10.2013 15:29, schrieb eles:

On Thursday, 31 October 2013 at 14:28:05 UTC, dennis
luehring

no problem :)

so tell the story what would happen if D scripts will be 
without .d?
is your Boss then more interested or can you introduce 
D-scripts then silently - what would happen?


He won't really care as long as I don't ask him to modify his 
scripts to update the names of those used by me. The latter are 
already hard-coded in his and others.


Yes, this has a solution: use of hardlinks (of 
identical-content, different name files). I already explained 
and acknowledged that in the very first post.


But is cumbersome and unpleasant and bad for backup-ing.


Why not simply rename .d to . then compile, rename back using a 
script? It might add a few extra seconds for very large projects 
but otherwise insignificant and should work most of the time.


Basically you'll use the script or wrapper app instead of 
whatever compile you are using.


Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-12-10 Thread eles

On Tuesday, 10 December 2013 at 09:44:38 UTC, Frustrated wrote:

On Thursday, 31 October 2013 at 15:39:27 UTC, eles wrote:
On Thursday, 31 October 2013 at 15:34:37 UTC, dennis luehring 
wrote:

Am 31.10.2013 16:22, schrieb eles:

On Thursday, 31 October 2013 at 15:13:20 UTC, dennis luehring
wrote:

Am 31.10.2013 16:01, schrieb eles:
On Thursday, 31 October 2013 at 14:57:15 UTC, dennis 
luehring

wrote:

Am 31.10.2013 15:45, schrieb eles:
On Thursday, 31 October 2013 at 14:39:34 UTC, dennis 
luehring

wrote:

Am 31.10.2013 15:29, schrieb eles:

On Thursday, 31 October 2013 at 14:28:05 UTC, dennis
luehring


Why not simply rename .d to . then compile, rename back using a 
script? It might add a few extra seconds for very large 
projects but otherwise insignificant and should work most of 
the time.


Basically you'll use the script or wrapper app instead of 
whatever compile you are using.


You are overreacting to a maybe bad joke, but I must say that I 
really love the solution you propose. Is even better than the one 
with hardlinks.


The only thing that I don't have yet is a third hand to keep the 
window open while my fifth foot is doing some tricks with the a 
crow's nest.


This would be quite a workable workaround, don't you think?


Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-12-10 Thread eles

On Tuesday, 10 December 2013 at 10:10:09 UTC, eles wrote:

On Tuesday, 10 December 2013 at 09:44:38 UTC, Frustrated wrote:

On Thursday, 31 October 2013 at 15:39:27 UTC, eles wrote:
On Thursday, 31 October 2013 at 15:34:37 UTC, dennis luehring 
wrote:

Am 31.10.2013 16:22, schrieb eles:
On Thursday, 31 October 2013 at 15:13:20 UTC, dennis 
luehring

wrote:

Am 31.10.2013 16:01, schrieb eles:
On Thursday, 31 October 2013 at 14:57:15 UTC, dennis 
luehring

wrote:

Am 31.10.2013 15:45, schrieb eles:
On Thursday, 31 October 2013 at 14:39:34 UTC, dennis 
luehring

wrote:

Am 31.10.2013 15:29, schrieb eles:

On Thursday, 31 October 2013 at 14:28:05 UTC, dennis
luehring


The only thing that I don't have yet is a third hand to keep 
the window open while my fifth foot is doing some tricks with 
the a crow's nest.


I mean, all that to entertain the compiler and keep it happy :)


Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-11-01 Thread Craig Dillabaugh

On Thursday, 31 October 2013 at 17:09:09 UTC, Leandro Lucarella
wrote:

Craig Dillabaugh, el 31 de October a las 15:54 me escribiste:

On Thursday, 31 October 2013 at 14:29:34 UTC, eles wrote:
On Thursday, 31 October 2013 at 14:28:05 UTC, dennis luehring
wrote:

This seems like a bit of bikeshedding issue.


It isn't bikeshedding at all, is a functional problem, is key to
understand that before you keep discussing the issue :)


Since when has understanding an issue been a requirement for
discussing it? As evidence I point you to the comments section on
just about any major news site :)

I think I understand the implications of the current requirement
that d source files end with .d.  However there are some
workarounds that, while certainly a pain, can be applied. Also,
some commentators had valid reasons to keep that status quo.  I
can see systems full of files with .py extensions that are
actually D files and with .rb files that are actually c++ files
and so forth being a bit of a maintenance nightmare for the
person that replaces you (like when you quit your job because the
made you code in Python).

My reason for posting originally was not so much that I didn't
like the request, but simply to point out that whether D is a
serious language, or a toy language, doesn't really hinge on this
issue. All sorts of serious programming environments/tools have
'features' that may certain workflows a pain.

By the way, I like your proposed solution.


Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-31 Thread eles

On Saturday, 26 October 2013 at 22:35:14 UTC, eles wrote:
On Saturday, 26 October 2013 at 21:11:02 UTC, Walter Bright 
wrote:

On 10/26/2013 2:02 AM, eles wrote:
On Saturday, 26 October 2013 at 08:36:53 UTC, Walter Bright 
wrote:

On 10/26/2013 12:42 AM, eles wrote:


http://d.puremagic.com/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=11365


Thank you for considering it.


I am amazed how such a simple issue is provoking unbelievable 
philosophic discussion attempting to find the best way to bite 
your own tail while running circles around a tree.


Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-31 Thread eles

On Saturday, 26 October 2013 at 22:35:14 UTC, eles wrote:
On Saturday, 26 October 2013 at 21:11:02 UTC, Walter Bright 
wrote:

On 10/26/2013 2:02 AM, eles wrote:
On Saturday, 26 October 2013 at 08:36:53 UTC, Walter Bright 
wrote:

On 10/26/2013 12:42 AM, eles wrote:

Thank you for considering it.


I cannot comment on the bugzilla, but frankly I do not like those 
comments at all.


Why cannot I name my scripts like:

script.no1
script.no2
script.no3

?

Must always use script_no1 or script_no1.d?

What is this conservationism? You have a very nice way to cut a 
programmer's arms and legs and then yell at him why he does not 
run or swim faster.


Just let the poor guy name the scripts how he really likes it.

Speaking about that, why DMD's source files are written in C++ 
but bear extension .c?


You seem to appreciate for yourselves a freedom that he denies to 
others.


Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-31 Thread eles

On Thursday, 31 October 2013 at 14:16:22 UTC, eles wrote:

On Saturday, 26 October 2013 at 22:35:14 UTC, eles wrote:
On Saturday, 26 October 2013 at 21:11:02 UTC, Walter Bright 
wrote:

On 10/26/2013 2:02 AM, eles wrote:
On Saturday, 26 October 2013 at 08:36:53 UTC, Walter Bright 
wrote:

On 10/26/2013 12:42 AM, eles wrote:


You seem to appreciate for yourselves a freedom that he denies 
to others.


And +1 for Leandro. The day that D was declared to serve some 
useful purpose is the day when D gave up the right to be just a 
toy.


Hey! I work in production! Somebody hears that?


Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-31 Thread bearophile

eles:

Speaking about that, why DMD's source files are written in C++ 
but bear extension .c?


You seem to appreciate for yourselves a freedom that he denies 
to others.


Thank you for bringing that good example. Forbidding arbitrary 
extensions for D code, and enforcing a common standard name helps 
avoid mistakes like those .c extensions in the C++ sources, 
that numerous persons keep criticizing. The advantages of a 
standard suffix for D code are way larger than the disadvantages.


Bye,
bearophile


Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-31 Thread eles

On Thursday, 31 October 2013 at 14:20:54 UTC, bearophile wrote:

eles:

Thank you for bringing that good example. Forbidding arbitrary 
extensions for D code, and enforcing a common standard name 
helps avoid mistakes like those .c extensions in the C++ 
sources, that numerous persons keep criticizing. The advantages 
of a standard suffix for D code are way larger than the 
disadvantages.


In projects, not in scripts. C/C++ not used for scripts.


Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-31 Thread eles

On Thursday, 31 October 2013 at 14:16:22 UTC, eles wrote:

On Saturday, 26 October 2013 at 22:35:14 UTC, eles wrote:
On Saturday, 26 October 2013 at 21:11:02 UTC, Walter Bright 
wrote:

On 10/26/2013 2:02 AM, eles wrote:
On Saturday, 26 October 2013 at 08:36:53 UTC, Walter Bright 
wrote:

On 10/26/2013 12:42 AM, eles wrote:

Thank you for considering it.


I cannot comment on the bugzilla, but frankly I do not like 
those comments at all.


Why cannot I name my scripts like:

script.no1
script.no2
script.no3

?

Must always use script_no1 or script_no1.d?


And maybe one day I have a lot of .py files that I intend to 
replace with D scripts TRANSPARENTLY for their user.


Will D bow at me why I use the .py extension?

Is D trying to shoot his own foot? It really seems to succeed 
quite well.


My boss is right: is just a toy pretending to be serious.

I am bitter about this.


Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-31 Thread eles
On Thursday, 31 October 2013 at 14:28:05 UTC, dennis luehring 
wrote:
3. My boss is right: is just a toy pretending to be serious - 
maybe, maybe not - but not because of your stupid file 
extension comments


It adds. Tell to my boss about that extensions and he will be 
grateful for you providing him ONE MORE REASON to laugh. At me.


Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-31 Thread eles

On Thursday, 31 October 2013 at 14:20:54 UTC, bearophile wrote:

eles:
Bye,
bearophile


Well, then allow just extension .d or NO EXTENSION, but consider 
files named like:


script.no1
script.julia
script.no5

just as being standard names without any extension (you may see 
for yourself that there is no extension since they lack the final 
.d).


D is a wonderful language for which creators try hard to make the 
worst of tools.


Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-31 Thread dennis luehring

Must always use script_no1 or script_no1.d?


And maybe one day I have a lot of .py files that I intend to
replace with D scripts TRANSPARENTLY for their user.

Will D bow at me why I use the .py extension?

Is D trying to shoot his own foot? It really seems to succeed
quite well.

My boss is right: is just a toy pretending to be serious.


sorry, but this is a very stupid comment:

1. never ever was a language successful(or not) because
of its file-extension behavior - maybe in your world

2. i hope there is no other tool around try to find/analyse/whatever 
real Python programs by using the extension - else you need to change 
that anyway


3. My boss is right: is just a toy pretending to be serious - maybe, 
maybe not - but not because of your stupid file extension comments


thx




Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-31 Thread dennis luehring

Am 31.10.2013 15:29, schrieb eles:

On Thursday, 31 October 2013 at 14:28:05 UTC, dennis luehring
wrote:

3. My boss is right: is just a toy pretending to be serious -
maybe, maybe not - but not because of your stupid file
extension comments


It adds. Tell to my boss about that extensions and he will be
grateful for you providing him ONE MORE REASON to laugh. At me.


question: why are you using D if

1. Python works for you
2. Python doesnt suffer from the BIG-BIG file-extension problem
3. your laughing Boss tells you D is a toy

i don't get it

better try to find a more experienced, serious Boss



Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-31 Thread eles
On Thursday, 31 October 2013 at 14:39:34 UTC, dennis luehring 
wrote:

Am 31.10.2013 15:29, schrieb eles:

On Thursday, 31 October 2013 at 14:28:05 UTC, dennis luehring
wrote:

3. My boss is right: is just a toy pretending to be serious


better try to find a more experienced, serious Boss


Do you offer yourself for his job?

Maybe because I don't want to have a code base written in several 
languages?


And seriously, about your former argument about the importance of 
the extension in being serious or not: accepting arbitrary 
extension was the reason for C++ doom?


Seriously, I never hear somebody citing that the purpose why D 
exists is to correct the C++... file extension problem.


I hear about a lot other reasons, but not this one.


Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-31 Thread eles

On Thursday, 31 October 2013 at 14:39:34 UTC, dennis luehring
wrote:

Am 31.10.2013 15:29, schrieb eles:

On Thursday, 31 October 2013 at 14:28:05 UTC, dennis luehring
wrote:

3. My boss is right: is just a toy pretending to be serious

i don't get it


You never wrote git extension scripts, isn't?

Then write and you will get it.



Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-31 Thread Dicebot
File content should have nothing to do with extension, it is as 
good part of name as any other. Adding any extra meaning to it is 
just some DOS legacy.


Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-31 Thread eles
On Thursday, 31 October 2013 at 14:39:34 UTC, dennis luehring 
wrote:

Am 31.10.2013 15:29, schrieb eles:

On Thursday, 31 October 2013 at 14:28:05 UTC, dennis luehring
wrote:
3. My boss is right: is just a toy pretending to be serious 
-

maybe, maybe not - but not because of your stupid file
extension comments


It adds. Tell to my boss about that extensions and he will be
grateful for you providing him ONE MORE REASON to laugh. At me.


question: why are you using D if


OH, I forgot to add: I HAAATE PYTHON.

I do not care if it works. Assembler works!

I hate it! I like D (the language, not the compiler ;). I *want* 
to use D.


Why don't *you* use ASM? Go and write in machine code!

IT WORKS!


Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-31 Thread dennis luehring

Am 31.10.2013 15:45, schrieb eles:

On Thursday, 31 October 2013 at 14:39:34 UTC, dennis luehring
wrote:

Am 31.10.2013 15:29, schrieb eles:

On Thursday, 31 October 2013 at 14:28:05 UTC, dennis luehring
wrote:

3. My boss is right: is just a toy pretending to be serious


better try to find a more experienced, serious Boss


Do you offer yourself for his job?

Maybe because I don't want to have a code base written in several
languages?

And seriously, about your former argument about the importance of
the extension in being serious or not: accepting arbitrary
extension was the reason for C++ doom?


just 0,001% of it - but a clear definition is always bettern then a 
floaty like you should use .d as extension




Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-31 Thread Craig Dillabaugh

On Thursday, 31 October 2013 at 14:29:34 UTC, eles wrote:
On Thursday, 31 October 2013 at 14:28:05 UTC, dennis luehring 
wrote:
3. My boss is right: is just a toy pretending to be serious 
- maybe, maybe not - but not because of your stupid file 
extension comments


It adds. Tell to my boss about that extensions and he will be 
grateful for you providing him ONE MORE REASON to laugh. At me.


In my experience, when it comes to software development, bosses
tend to have no clue what they are talking about anyway :o)  So I
would just laugh back at him/her (might keep that to myself
though, depending on how secure I feel my job is).

This seems like a bit of bikeshedding issue.  You may have a
strong preference for one option, apparently others feel
differently.  Is it really that big an issue?  I don't think the
quality of a language depends on its file naming conventions.  I
don't like the way Python uses whitespace .. but I still like the
language.

I agree the compiler shouldn't be adding anything to the supplied
names, however if I understand the issue I see no real problem
with requiring that D source files/scripts end with a .d
extension.

Finally, you've said a few times that D has crappy tooling.  I am
not sure how this file naming stuff has anything to do with that
(other than superficial ways).


Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-31 Thread eles
On Thursday, 31 October 2013 at 14:54:17 UTC, Craig Dillabaugh 
wrote:

On Thursday, 31 October 2013 at 14:29:34 UTC, eles wrote:
On Thursday, 31 October 2013 at 14:28:05 UTC, dennis luehring 
wrote:
Finally, you've said a few times that D has crappy tooling.  I 
am

not sure how this file naming stuff has anything to do with that
(other than superficial ways).


Go to that bug report, read the very first message that Walter 
used to open the bug report, see about yourself, then come back 
here and tell me that the .d thing does not matter.


It is the *very* reason for this debate.

As to quote Walter's own understanding of the problem 
(unfortunately, the solution he proposed is bad):


Thanks for the clear explanation. It makes a lot of sense..

Now, if you disagree with that, you disagree with Walter.


Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-31 Thread dennis luehring

Am 31.10.2013 15:45, schrieb eles:

On Thursday, 31 October 2013 at 14:39:34 UTC, dennis luehring
wrote:

Am 31.10.2013 15:29, schrieb eles:

On Thursday, 31 October 2013 at 14:28:05 UTC, dennis luehring
wrote:

3. My boss is right: is just a toy pretending to be serious


better try to find a more experienced, serious Boss


Do you offer yourself for his job?


why should i?




Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-31 Thread Craig Dillabaugh

On Thursday, 31 October 2013 at 14:54:17 UTC, Craig Dillabaugh
wrote:
clip


This seems like a bit of bikeshedding issue.  You may have a
strong preference for one option, apparently others feel
differently.  Is it really that big an issue?  I don't think the
quality of a language depends on its file naming conventions.  I
don't like the way Python uses whitespace .. but I still like 
the

language.

clip
Finally, you've said a few times that D has crappy tooling.  I 
am

not sure how this file naming stuff has anything to do with that
(other than superficial ways).


eles, seeing your post above, I guess my use of Python to justify
my answer turns out to a bad choice on my part :o)


Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-31 Thread eles
On Thursday, 31 October 2013 at 14:57:43 UTC, Craig Dillabaugh 
wrote:

On Thursday, 31 October 2013 at 14:54:17 UTC, Craig Dillabaugh
eles, seeing your post above, I guess my use of Python to 
justify

my answer turns out to a bad choice on my part :o)


That's true. I hate using it, especially because I am still force 
to use it when writing tests because of its py.test module.


I simply don't like it. I want pointers in my code.


Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-31 Thread eles
On Thursday, 31 October 2013 at 14:57:15 UTC, dennis luehring 
wrote:

Am 31.10.2013 15:45, schrieb eles:

On Thursday, 31 October 2013 at 14:39:34 UTC, dennis luehring
wrote:

Am 31.10.2013 15:29, schrieb eles:

On Thursday, 31 October 2013 at 14:28:05 UTC, dennis luehring
wrote:
3. My boss is right: is just a toy pretending to be 
serious


better try to find a more experienced, serious Boss


Do you offer yourself for his job?


why should i?


Then don't tell me what I should feel to do about my job.

'Cause you don't deserve other answer than why should I?



Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-31 Thread dennis luehring

Am 31.10.2013 16:01, schrieb eles:

On Thursday, 31 October 2013 at 14:57:15 UTC, dennis luehring
wrote:

Am 31.10.2013 15:45, schrieb eles:

On Thursday, 31 October 2013 at 14:39:34 UTC, dennis luehring
wrote:

Am 31.10.2013 15:29, schrieb eles:

On Thursday, 31 October 2013 at 14:28:05 UTC, dennis luehring
wrote:

3. My boss is right: is just a toy pretending to be
serious


better try to find a more experienced, serious Boss


Do you offer yourself for his job?


why should i?


Then don't tell me what I should feel to do about my job.

'Cause you don't deserve other answer than why should I?



i don't see any chance/strategy to get D in your current development - 
so if you don't want to code Python (I WANT pointers) anymore - try to
find a job where you can write C/C++ or D - or else your need (and real 
hard interest to get your Boss in the Boart) for D seems to be not big 
enough - i would quit my job very fast if someone forces me to write 
Python code most of the time - thats all




Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-31 Thread eles

On Thursday, 31 October 2013 at 14:45:46 UTC, Dicebot wrote:
File content should have nothing to do with extension, it is as 
good part of name as any other. Adding any extra meaning to it 
is just some DOS legacy.


When I first came to Linux I was wondering how the OS knows it 
should execute some file that wasn't bearing the .exe/.com 
extensions.


And who tells the OS this is an executable file? How could Linux 
know it without the .exe or .com at the end?


Well, I was DOSwashed.


Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-31 Thread Craig Dillabaugh

On Thursday, 31 October 2013 at 14:58:33 UTC, eles wrote:
On Thursday, 31 October 2013 at 14:54:17 UTC, Craig Dillabaugh 
wrote:


Go to that bug report, read the very first message that Walter 
used to open the bug report, see about yourself, then come back 
here and tell me that the .d thing does not matter.


It is the *very* reason for this debate.

As to quote Walter's own understanding of the problem 
(unfortunately, the solution he proposed is bad):


Thanks for the clear explanation. It makes a lot of sense..

Now, if you disagree with that, you disagree with Walter.


I read the bug report, and the ensuing comments.  It just seems
that some people involved don't agree, but opinion appears to be
split.  Having Walter apparently on your side can't hurt though.
I can see why you like having the ability to process an
arbitrarily named file as a D source file, but some of the
counter-arguments have some merit.

Furthermore, reading the Bugzilla entry, it seems there as many
who support your idea as those who disagree.

I could also argue that this issue is a with git requiring a
'git-' suffix on its scripts without providing users with some
means of overriding the file naming convention (maybe this is
already possible, I have only minimal git experience)!

Really, I can see why you want the suggested change, I am just
surprised at the level of importance you seem to be ascribing to
it.


Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-31 Thread eles
On Thursday, 31 October 2013 at 15:13:20 UTC, dennis luehring 
wrote:

Am 31.10.2013 16:01, schrieb eles:

On Thursday, 31 October 2013 at 14:57:15 UTC, dennis luehring
wrote:

Am 31.10.2013 15:45, schrieb eles:

On Thursday, 31 October 2013 at 14:39:34 UTC, dennis luehring
wrote:

Am 31.10.2013 15:29, schrieb eles:
On Thursday, 31 October 2013 at 14:28:05 UTC, dennis 
luehring
i don't see any chance/strategy to get D in your current 
development - so if you don't want to code Python (I WANT 
pointers) anymore - try to
find a job where you can write C/C++ or D - or else your need 
(and real hard interest to get your Boss in the Boart) for D 
seems to be not big enough - i would quit my job very fast if 
someone forces me to write Python code most of the time - thats 
all


Frankly, just stop advising me to take a new job. It is the kind 
of advice that I really find intrusive and unbearable.


I do critical software and is 90% C. Is for embedded devices that 
are great chances that you already used.


I use Python for py.test because it is the company policy and 
tradition, but I am not forced to like Python.


Let's keep the discussion in the terms of languages, not personal 
problems. I would never allow myself to tell you what you should 
do with your car, house, job or life.


BTW, my boss is very kind and nice, but he is concerned about how 
the tools would increase productivity. It is he who is 
responsible for the budget in front of, guess it, his boss.


Otherwise, no, I would simply quit D instead of my job. And this 
neither, I don't want to do it.


Please, stop advising me in matters that I consider should remain 
of my personal competence.


Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-31 Thread eles
On Thursday, 31 October 2013 at 15:22:41 UTC, Craig Dillabaugh 
wrote:

On Thursday, 31 October 2013 at 14:58:33 UTC, eles wrote:

On Thursday, 31 October 2013 at 14:54:17 UTC, Craig Dillabaugh

Really, I can see why you want the suggested change, I am just
surprised at the level of importance you seem to be ascribing to
it.


Maybe because it is a real problem?

Usually, those who take such matters lightly never really 
encounter them. And it is easy to give advice about somebody's 
else teeth ache.


You know, the usual: c'mon, you scream too hard, it *cannot* 
hurt that much.


Well, this is true, it does not hurt anyone, except the one who 
really has his teeth broken. But the others are quite insensitive 
to it.


That's the story about the .d suffix.


Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-31 Thread eles
On Thursday, 31 October 2013 at 15:22:41 UTC, Craig Dillabaugh 
wrote:

On Thursday, 31 October 2013 at 14:58:33 UTC, eles wrote:
On Thursday, 31 October 2013 at 14:54:17 UTC, Craig Dillabaugh 
wrote:



Furthermore, reading the Bugzilla entry, it seems there as many
who support your idea as those who disagree.


If you are sick about to die in an hospital, would you like the 
medical treatment for you to be established through a majority 
vote involving the whole city population, or on the professional 
doctors that *really know* what your health problem is about?


Just ask the question: how many of you expressing advice did you 
really encounter this problem and felt about it?


It is so easy to offer advice about things that do not really 
hurt you, but only others.


Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-31 Thread dennis luehring

Am 31.10.2013 16:22, schrieb eles:

On Thursday, 31 October 2013 at 15:13:20 UTC, dennis luehring
wrote:

Am 31.10.2013 16:01, schrieb eles:

On Thursday, 31 October 2013 at 14:57:15 UTC, dennis luehring
wrote:

Am 31.10.2013 15:45, schrieb eles:

On Thursday, 31 October 2013 at 14:39:34 UTC, dennis luehring
wrote:

Am 31.10.2013 15:29, schrieb eles:

On Thursday, 31 October 2013 at 14:28:05 UTC, dennis
luehring

i don't see any chance/strategy to get D in your current
development - so if you don't want to code Python (I WANT
pointers) anymore - try to
find a job where you can write C/C++ or D - or else your need
(and real hard interest to get your Boss in the Boart) for D
seems to be not big enough - i would quit my job very fast if
someone forces me to write Python code most of the time - thats
all


Frankly, just stop advising me to take a new job. It is the kind
of advice that I really find intrusive and unbearable.


no problem :)

so tell the story what would happen if D scripts will be without .d?
is your Boss then more interested or can you introduce D-scripts then 
silently - what would happen?




Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-31 Thread eles
On Thursday, 31 October 2013 at 15:34:37 UTC, dennis luehring 
wrote:

Am 31.10.2013 16:22, schrieb eles:

On Thursday, 31 October 2013 at 15:13:20 UTC, dennis luehring
wrote:

Am 31.10.2013 16:01, schrieb eles:

On Thursday, 31 October 2013 at 14:57:15 UTC, dennis luehring
wrote:

Am 31.10.2013 15:45, schrieb eles:
On Thursday, 31 October 2013 at 14:39:34 UTC, dennis 
luehring

wrote:

Am 31.10.2013 15:29, schrieb eles:

On Thursday, 31 October 2013 at 14:28:05 UTC, dennis
luehring

no problem :)

so tell the story what would happen if D scripts will be 
without .d?
is your Boss then more interested or can you introduce 
D-scripts then silently - what would happen?


He won't really care as long as I don't ask him to modify his 
scripts to update the names of those used by me. The latter are 
already hard-coded in his and others.


Yes, this has a solution: use of hardlinks (of identical-content, 
different name files). I already explained and acknowledged that 
in the very first post.


But is cumbersome and unpleasant and bad for backup-ing.


Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-31 Thread eles
On Thursday, 31 October 2013 at 15:22:41 UTC, Craig Dillabaugh 
wrote:

On Thursday, 31 October 2013 at 14:58:33 UTC, eles wrote:
On Thursday, 31 October 2013 at 14:54:17 UTC, Craig Dillabaugh 
wrote:



I could also argue that this issue is a with git requiring a
'git-' suffix on its scripts without providing users with some
means of overriding the file naming convention (maybe this is
already possible, I have only minimal git experience)!


BTW, git is not requiring a git- suffix, but a git-prefix. It 
does not matter for git what the git-name here script extension 
(or name) use.


It matters to the one typing git commands, because he has to type:

git name here

in order for git to invoke

git-name here

behind.

I really don't feel like git is doing anything bad here or it 
should change.


It matters, however, if one is allowed to type:

git tellmethelotterynumbers

instead of being forced to type

git tellmethelotterynumbers.d

You see, the latter version will give you the numbers spelled as:

16.d, 32.d, 18.d, 5.d, 11.d and 22.d

Or, it happens, the state lottery won't deny you the prize 
because, guess, the real numbers that were extracted were 16, 32, 
18, 5, 11 and 22.


Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-31 Thread eles

On Thursday, 31 October 2013 at 16:12:44 UTC, eles wrote:
On Thursday, 31 October 2013 at 15:22:41 UTC, Craig Dillabaugh 
wrote:

On Thursday, 31 October 2013 at 14:58:33 UTC, eles wrote:
On Thursday, 31 October 2013 at 14:54:17 UTC, Craig 
Dillabaugh wrote:

Or, it happens, the state lottery won't deny you the prize


*will :P


Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-31 Thread Leandro Lucarella
dennis luehring, el 31 de October a las 15:28 me escribiste:
 Must always use script_no1 or script_no1.d?
 
 And maybe one day I have a lot of .py files that I intend to
 replace with D scripts TRANSPARENTLY for their user.
 
 Will D bow at me why I use the .py extension?
 
 Is D trying to shoot his own foot? It really seems to succeed
 quite well.
 
 My boss is right: is just a toy pretending to be serious.
 
 sorry, but this is a very stupid comment:
 
 1. never ever was a language successful(or not) because
 of its file-extension behavior - maybe in your world
 
 2. i hope there is no other tool around try to find/analyse/whatever
 real Python programs by using the extension - else you need to
 change that anyway
 
 3. My boss is right: is just a toy pretending to be serious -
 maybe, maybe not - but not because of your stupid file extension
 comments

I think even when the wording isn't the best, what he says is true.
Sometimes is hard to sell the language when things that are so trivial
and fundamental (as letting file names have arbitrary names, at least
for scripts) not only are broken, but are justified by the community.

That's definitely not serious and discouraging.

-- 
Leandro Lucarella (AKA luca) http://llucax.com.ar/
--
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Together we stand, divided we fall.


Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-31 Thread Leandro Lucarella
Craig Dillabaugh, el 31 de October a las 15:54 me escribiste:
 On Thursday, 31 October 2013 at 14:29:34 UTC, eles wrote:
 On Thursday, 31 October 2013 at 14:28:05 UTC, dennis luehring
 wrote:
 3. My boss is right: is just a toy pretending to be serious -
 maybe, maybe not - but not because of your stupid file extension
 comments
 
 It adds. Tell to my boss about that extensions and he will be
 grateful for you providing him ONE MORE REASON to laugh. At me.
 
 In my experience, when it comes to software development, bosses
 tend to have no clue what they are talking about anyway :o)  So I
 would just laugh back at him/her (might keep that to myself
 though, depending on how secure I feel my job is).
 
 This seems like a bit of bikeshedding issue.

It isn't bikeshedding at all, is a functional problem, is key to
understand that before you keep discussing the issue :)

-- 
Leandro Lucarella (AKA luca) http://llucax.com.ar/
--
GPG Key: 5F5A8D05 (F8CD F9A7 BF00 5431 4145  104C 949E BFB6 5F5A 8D05)
--
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-- Ricardo Vaporeso


Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-31 Thread dennis luehring

Am 31.10.2013 17:44, schrieb Leandro Lucarella:

dennis luehring, el 31 de October a las 15:28 me escribiste:

Must always use script_no1 or script_no1.d?

And maybe one day I have a lot of .py files that I intend to
replace with D scripts TRANSPARENTLY for their user.

Will D bow at me why I use the .py extension?

Is D trying to shoot his own foot? It really seems to succeed
quite well.

My boss is right: is just a toy pretending to be serious.

sorry, but this is a very stupid comment:

1. never ever was a language successful(or not) because
of its file-extension behavior - maybe in your world

2. i hope there is no other tool around try to find/analyse/whatever
real Python programs by using the extension - else you need to
change that anyway

3. My boss is right: is just a toy pretending to be serious -
maybe, maybe not - but not because of your stupid file extension
comments


I think even when the wording isn't the best, what he says is true.
Sometimes is hard to sell the language when things that are so trivial
and fundamental (as letting file names have arbitrary names, at least
for scripts) not only are broken, but are justified by the community.

That's definitely not serious and discouraging.



sorry for my wording - but pressure sentence like My boss is right: is 
just a toy pretending to be serious aren't fair also


Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-31 Thread Leandro Lucarella
dennis luehring, el 31 de October a las 18:25 me escribiste:
 Am 31.10.2013 17:44, schrieb Leandro Lucarella:
 dennis luehring, el 31 de October a las 15:28 me escribiste:
 Must always use script_no1 or script_no1.d?
 
 And maybe one day I have a lot of .py files that I intend to
 replace with D scripts TRANSPARENTLY for their user.
 
 Will D bow at me why I use the .py extension?
 
 Is D trying to shoot his own foot? It really seems to succeed
 quite well.
 
 My boss is right: is just a toy pretending to be serious.
 
 sorry, but this is a very stupid comment:
 
 1. never ever was a language successful(or not) because
 of its file-extension behavior - maybe in your world
 
 2. i hope there is no other tool around try to find/analyse/whatever
 real Python programs by using the extension - else you need to
 change that anyway
 
 3. My boss is right: is just a toy pretending to be serious -
 maybe, maybe not - but not because of your stupid file extension
 comments
 
 I think even when the wording isn't the best, what he says is true.
 Sometimes is hard to sell the language when things that are so trivial
 and fundamental (as letting file names have arbitrary names, at least
 for scripts) not only are broken, but are justified by the community.
 
 That's definitely not serious and discouraging.
 
 
 sorry for my wording - but pressure sentence like My boss is right:
 is just a toy pretending to be serious aren't fair also

Let's see if this makes both sides happy:
https://github.com/D-Programming-Language/dmd/pull/2700

(I still don't see any reason to enforce any extension, ever, but this
at least fixes the more pressing issue, hopefully with less resistance)

-- 
Leandro Lucarella (AKA luca) http://llucax.com.ar/
--
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-- Crónica TV


Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-26 Thread eles

On Friday, 25 October 2013 at 20:24:48 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

On 10/25/2013 6:15 AM, eles wrote:
Breaking peoples' build scripts and makefiles is not nice :-)


On the same grounds, you could recommend them dmc.

Provide, at least, a flag that passes the file without name 
change, for example:


dmd -ntest

will really pass test file and not test.d.

Why working so hard to do a good language if you work even harder 
to provide the worst of tooling?




Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-26 Thread eles

On Friday, 25 October 2013 at 15:57:27 UTC, Namespace wrote:

On Friday, 25 October 2013 at 13:24:12 UTC, eles wrote:

On Saturday, 12 October 2013 at 22:16:13 UTC, Walter Bright
When was decided to add this? I would love it, but I cannot 
remember that this was decided.


Well, like many other ideas of its kind, Walter expressed 
sympathy for it, then fall into oblivion...


Unfortunately, D puts a lot of effort in doing great things, but 
all the nice nuts and bolts that would make our life easire and 
require no more than one LOC change in dmd's source tend to be 
forgotten.


Somebody complained about lack of vision in D development. Don't 
be upset on me, but I really feel the same.


People come, tried to do things... and left.


Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-26 Thread Walter Bright

On 10/26/2013 12:42 AM, eles wrote:

Provide, at least, a flag that passes the file without name change, for example:

dmd -ntest

will really pass test file and not test.d.


I'm curious why naming the file test.d is an issue?



Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-26 Thread eles

On Saturday, 26 October 2013 at 08:36:53 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

On 10/26/2013 12:42 AM, eles wrote:

I'm curious why naming the file test.d is an issue?


Case:

This forces scrpts to bear the .d extension. For example, if you 
write a script on Linux named git-test and you put at the top:


#!rdmd

rdmd will pass its name to dmd, and dmd will try to compile... 
git-test.d, which does not exist.


Now, you have either to rename the git-test into git-test.d, 
or to create a hardlink named git-test.d that points towards 
git-test so that dmd finally gets satisfied its .d hungriness.


The solution with the hardlink carries the well-known burdness of 
redundancy, let's not even say its idiot and makes back-up-ing a 
mess.


OTOH, renaming the original script into git-test.d has the 
undesirable effect wrt to git software.


git uses some nice convention that you can extend its command 
list by writing your own git-command1, git-command2 scripts 
and they are invoked automatically by git when you type:


git command1 (this will invoke git-command1) etc.

The problem with being forced to rename git-command1 into 
git-command1.d is that, afterwards, you have to type the 
following command for git:


git command1.d (in order to have the git-command1.d invoked, 
as git-command1 simply does not exist or, if it would exist, 
dmd would be blind about it).


SO, you cannot type git command1 and to have a git-command1 
script invoked, because git won't search for git-command1.d, 
while dmd won't compile git-command1.


So you need both git-command1 and git-command1.d doing the 
same thing, just to be able to type git command1 (not even say 
that this allows you to invoke, also git comman1.d, which is 
ugly and undesired redundancy).


Now, immagine yourself having to type:

git checkout.d .
git commit.d
git log.d

instead of

git checkout .
git commit
git log

and tell me that .d is not an issue.

Please have a look at the original thread that I linked and 
you'll see the problem.


What use for scripting in D if I am unable to do some simple 
scripts because of the compiler?


Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-26 Thread Walter Bright

On 10/26/2013 2:02 AM, eles wrote:

On Saturday, 26 October 2013 at 08:36:53 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

I'm curious why naming the file test.d is an issue?


Case:


Thanks for the clear explanation. It makes a lot of sense. Let me think about it 
for a bit.




Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-26 Thread Walter Bright

On 10/26/2013 2:02 AM, eles wrote:

On Saturday, 26 October 2013 at 08:36:53 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

On 10/26/2013 12:42 AM, eles wrote:

I'm curious why naming the file test.d is an issue?


Case:


http://d.puremagic.com/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=11365



Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-26 Thread eles

On Saturday, 26 October 2013 at 21:11:02 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

On 10/26/2013 2:02 AM, eles wrote:
On Saturday, 26 October 2013 at 08:36:53 UTC, Walter Bright 
wrote:

On 10/26/2013 12:42 AM, eles wrote:


http://d.puremagic.com/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=11365


Thank you for considering it.


Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-25 Thread eles

On Saturday, 12 October 2013 at 22:16:13 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

http://ftp.digitalmars.com/dmd2beta.zip

Current list of regressions:



It is a specific reason why this is kept?:

http://forum.dlang.org/thread/ohduisigpwdiqhpde...@forum.dlang.org#post-btwbpwgluzyxmhphwebp:40forum.dlang.org



Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-25 Thread eles

On Saturday, 12 October 2013 at 22:16:13 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

http://ftp.digitalmars.com/dmd2beta.zip

Current list of regressions:

http://d.puremagic.com/issues/buglist.cgi?query_format=advancedbug_severity=regressionbug_status=NEWbug_status=ASSIGNEDbug_status=REOPENED



And the famous

int[$] x = [1,2,3];

to declare static arrays and force the compiler to compute the 
length?




Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-25 Thread Namespace

On Friday, 25 October 2013 at 13:24:12 UTC, eles wrote:
On Saturday, 12 October 2013 at 22:16:13 UTC, Walter Bright 
wrote:

http://ftp.digitalmars.com/dmd2beta.zip

Current list of regressions:

http://d.puremagic.com/issues/buglist.cgi?query_format=advancedbug_severity=regressionbug_status=NEWbug_status=ASSIGNEDbug_status=REOPENED



And the famous

int[$] x = [1,2,3];

to declare static arrays and force the compiler to compute the 
length?


When was decided to add this? I would love it, but I cannot 
remember that this was decided.


Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-25 Thread Walter Bright

On 10/25/2013 6:15 AM, eles wrote:

It is a specific reason why this is kept?:

http://forum.dlang.org/thread/ohduisigpwdiqhpde...@forum.dlang.org#post-btwbpwgluzyxmhphwebp:40forum.dlang.org



Breaking peoples' build scripts and makefiles is not nice :-)


Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-24 Thread Iain Buclaw
On 24 October 2013 02:29, Walter Bright newshou...@digitalmars.com wrote:
 Beta 3:

 http://ftp.digitalmars.com/dmd.2.064.beta.3.zip


I suppose I better start opening a branch in gdc for the new release


-- 
Iain Buclaw

*(p  e ? p++ : p) = (c  0x0f) + '0';


Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-24 Thread Iain Buclaw
On 24 October 2013 07:44, Iain Buclaw ibuc...@ubuntu.com wrote:
 On 24 October 2013 02:29, Walter Bright newshou...@digitalmars.com wrote:
 Beta 3:

 http://ftp.digitalmars.com/dmd.2.064.beta.3.zip


 I suppose I better start opening a branch in gdc for the new release



Noticed this in meld, the readme.txt file is different in the beta zip
for the frontend.

Don't know how you managed it...

https://github.com/D-Programming-Language/dmd/blob/master/src/readme.txt

-- 
Iain Buclaw

*(p  e ? p++ : p) = (c  0x0f) + '0';


Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-23 Thread Walter Bright

Beta 3:

http://ftp.digitalmars.com/dmd.2.064.beta.3.zip


Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-22 Thread Rory McGuire
Why not just copy what Linus does with the Linux kernel. Different people
in charge of different parts of the compiler. Pull requests should go to
the correct person, who then makes a pull request that goes to the main
line.



On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 12:31 PM, Leandro Lucarella l...@llucax.com.arwrote:

 Andrei Alexandrescu, el 18 de October a las 11:45 me escribiste:
  - We do not have any defined release timeline. When is it time to
  start prepping for a release? It's up to Walter's arbitrary decision
  for when this happens, he doesn't even talk to the community or
  contributors on whether it's a good time for a beta phase (maybe
  there's a huge or disruptive new pull request that's planning to be
  merged and a beta should be delayed).
 
  I understand how that can be a bother. Walter figures the time is
  ripe for a new release when we have enough compelling features and
  fixes. I'll try to make the appropriate announcements in the future
  prior to deciding on starting a beta.

 Just a brief comment about this: sometimes regularity could be better
 than tons of new features/bugfixes.

  Walter scrambled to implement UDAs in a rush and breaking protocol
  in order to win a corporate D user, Remedy Games. It was a major,
  exceptional event. Would you have preferred the protocol to have
  been followed at the cost of Remedy?

 That's not the entire story. Back then Walter still push changes to the
 repo himself. That was the main problem, and fortunately it finally
 changed. He did that all the time in the past, UDAs wasn't an exception,
 but it had a high impact back then because Walter was the only one not
 going through the review process, it so felt doubly unfair.

  So when I have a few free minutes, I try to take a look at the
  extant pull requests - really, any would do. I try to pull in those
  that are meaningful and uncontroversial. I agree I could probably
  spend more time on carefully analyzing interactions between pulls,
  but that's time I can't afford.

 I think the alternative is merging one, wait for the autotester, merge
 another and wait for the autotester, and so on. I would be more annoying
 having to wait for every test, but there is really no rush to make
 a bunch in one go. I think it would be extremely helpful to have some
 help from the autotester to auto-merge too. Like marking a pull request
 as approved so the auto-tester merges it automatically when it passes the
 test. Dreaming?

 --
 Leandro Lucarella (AKA luca) http://llucax.com.ar/
 --
 GPG Key: 5F5A8D05 (F8CD F9A7 BF00 5431 4145  104C 949E BFB6 5F5A 8D05)
 --
 o_O parakenotengobarraespaciadora
 o_O aver
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Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-22 Thread Iain Buclaw
On 22 October 2013 08:35, Rory McGuire rjmcgu...@gmail.com wrote:
 Why not just copy what Linus does with the Linux kernel. Different people in
 charge of different parts of the compiler. Pull requests should go to the
 correct person, who then makes a pull request that goes to the main line.




The thing is, there are too few components of D that make it work.

Take DMD for example, you've got: backend, glue, front-end, ctfe.  You
could probably stretch it out further into port, target, lexer/parse,
template, speller, cppmangle/mangle, hdrgen.   But these are small and
on their own don't get many changes to.


Regards
-- 
Iain Buclaw

*(p  e ? p++ : p) = (c  0x0f) + '0';


Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-21 Thread Leandro Lucarella
Andrei Alexandrescu, el 18 de October a las 11:45 me escribiste:
 - We do not have any defined release timeline. When is it time to
 start prepping for a release? It's up to Walter's arbitrary decision
 for when this happens, he doesn't even talk to the community or
 contributors on whether it's a good time for a beta phase (maybe
 there's a huge or disruptive new pull request that's planning to be
 merged and a beta should be delayed).
 
 I understand how that can be a bother. Walter figures the time is
 ripe for a new release when we have enough compelling features and
 fixes. I'll try to make the appropriate announcements in the future
 prior to deciding on starting a beta.

Just a brief comment about this: sometimes regularity could be better
than tons of new features/bugfixes.

 Walter scrambled to implement UDAs in a rush and breaking protocol
 in order to win a corporate D user, Remedy Games. It was a major,
 exceptional event. Would you have preferred the protocol to have
 been followed at the cost of Remedy?

That's not the entire story. Back then Walter still push changes to the
repo himself. That was the main problem, and fortunately it finally
changed. He did that all the time in the past, UDAs wasn't an exception,
but it had a high impact back then because Walter was the only one not
going through the review process, it so felt doubly unfair.

 So when I have a few free minutes, I try to take a look at the
 extant pull requests - really, any would do. I try to pull in those
 that are meaningful and uncontroversial. I agree I could probably
 spend more time on carefully analyzing interactions between pulls,
 but that's time I can't afford.

I think the alternative is merging one, wait for the autotester, merge
another and wait for the autotester, and so on. I would be more annoying
having to wait for every test, but there is really no rush to make
a bunch in one go. I think it would be extremely helpful to have some
help from the autotester to auto-merge too. Like marking a pull request
as approved so the auto-tester merges it automatically when it passes the
test. Dreaming?

-- 
Leandro Lucarella (AKA luca) http://llucax.com.ar/
--
GPG Key: 5F5A8D05 (F8CD F9A7 BF00 5431 4145  104C 949E BFB6 5F5A 8D05)
--
o_O parakenotengobarraespaciadora
o_O aver
o_O estoyarreglandolabarraporkeserompiounapatita


Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-20 Thread Manu
On 19 October 2013 21:29, Iain Buclaw ibuc...@ubuntu.com wrote:


 On Oct 18, 2013 7:45 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu 
 seewebsiteforem...@erdani.org wrote:
 
  Walter scrambled to implement UDAs in a rush and breaking protocol in
 order to win a corporate D user, Remedy Games. It was a major, exceptional
 event. Would you have preferred the protocol to have been followed at the
 cost of Remedy?
 

 I would have preferred Remedy working with the community, rather than
 talking behind closed doors to those who concern only them.  And I say this
 as someone who was part involved before UDAs and the public announcement
 came into the picture.

Surely you can appreciate that we weren't ready for it to be made public
information. We didn't really have much choice. There's always company
bureaucracy to deal with.

What I did find interesting, in reflection at dconf, was that Manu
 countered all arguments (that I could recall) Walter made to keeping the
 deprecation in place.

I had no idea about the deprecation of the original syntax. I don't recall
ever being a party to any discussion on that matter. The community clearly
voted for @attribute syntax, and as soon as it was done, I switched all our
code over.
I wasn't personally precious about which way the syntax went. We just
needed the feature, and it seems to have been successfully used by many
others since us too, so I really hope most people agree it was a valuable
addition, despite materialising fairly abruptly.
It's also not like I was the first to come up with it either, people had
been talking about attributes for years, I just gave it a nudge.
If we were the only people that *ever* used the initial (experimental)
C#-style [attribute] syntax, then it should be removed and put an end to
this criticism, since I changed our code over within minutes of the new
syntax being made available :)
There's probably no D code anywhere that uses the original C#-style syntax.


Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-20 Thread Iain Buclaw
On 20 October 2013 07:06, Manu turkey...@gmail.com wrote:
 On 19 October 2013 21:29, Iain Buclaw ibuc...@ubuntu.com wrote:


 On Oct 18, 2013 7:45 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu
 seewebsiteforem...@erdani.org wrote:
 
  Walter scrambled to implement UDAs in a rush and breaking protocol in
  order to win a corporate D user, Remedy Games. It was a major, exceptional
  event. Would you have preferred the protocol to have been followed at the
  cost of Remedy?
 

 I would have preferred Remedy working with the community, rather than
 talking behind closed doors to those who concern only them.  And I say this
 as someone who was part involved before UDAs and the public announcement
 came into the picture.

 Surely you can appreciate that we weren't ready for it to be made public
 information. We didn't really have much choice. There's always company
 bureaucracy to deal with.


I can partly understand, and I never felt inclined to push them
through the proper channels when I received in personal emails from
staff.  For me, if I use a product/project and like a product/project,
I want to get involved in with the product/project.  But I suppose not
everyone in a games dev company wants to chip in with aiding
development of a library/toolchain when they've got a deadline on a
game to finish first...


 What I did find interesting, in reflection at dconf, was that Manu
 countered all arguments (that I could recall) Walter made to keeping the
 deprecation in place.

 I had no idea about the deprecation of the original syntax. I don't recall
 ever being a party to any discussion on that matter. The community clearly
 voted for @attribute syntax, and as soon as it was done, I switched all our
 code over.
 I wasn't personally precious about which way the syntax went. We just needed
 the feature, and it seems to have been successfully used by many others
 since us too, so I really hope most people agree it was a valuable addition,
 despite materialising fairly abruptly.
 It's also not like I was the first to come up with it either, people had
 been talking about attributes for years, I just gave it a nudge.
 If we were the only people that *ever* used the initial (experimental)
 C#-style [attribute] syntax, then it should be removed and put an end to
 this criticism, since I changed our code over within minutes of the new
 syntax being made available :)
 There's probably no D code anywhere that uses the original C#-style syntax.

That was near enough exactly the answer to the question I recall from
dconf.  :o)

The question being on how true Walter was in saying that whoever was
using the C#-style syntax had a large codebase, and change-over was
not simple for them.  However it is entirely possible that he was
referring to another company other than Remedy.

-- 
Iain Buclaw

*(p  e ? p++ : p) = (c  0x0f) + '0';


Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-20 Thread Kagamin

On Saturday, 19 October 2013 at 11:39:08 UTC, Iain Buclaw wrote:

 It has been about 3 months since the last release of the D
 front-end implementation.  Three years experience and 
 carrying

 out over 100 merges into GDC tells me that each time the
 development cycle starts edging towards it's fourth month, it
 makes things an absolute nightmare, in both the time consumed
 merging in the changes, and with time spent tracking down bug
 reports for unittests/testsuite cases that test backend code
 generation - with 2.060, 2.061 and 2.063 being the worst 
 releases
 I have ever had to deal with - before 2.060 the release 
 schedule
 (if it even qualifies as a 'schedule') was anywhere between 
 1-2

 months.


And a big +1 to that as well.


Can't merges be done without release at your discretion in a 
separate branch or repo? If you keep track of it monthly, then 
you would have less to merge at the time of release.


Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-19 Thread ilya-stromberg

On Friday, 18 October 2013 at 20:29:29 UTC, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:
On 10/18/13, Andrei Alexandrescu 
seewebsiteforem...@erdani.org wrote:
As a simple start, did you consider announcing the beta 
yourself?


I didn't, because I disliked the current model and tied my 
hands when
I saw the new beta was out due to the sum of frustrations which 
I've

listed. This will change if the situation improves, of course.

Anyone can tweet #dlang @D_programming, and in all likelihood 
we and many

others would retweet.


Good. I'll certainly start to build a better online presence,
including tweeting, and I should start blogging too (there's 
plenty to
blog about w.r.t. D). I can't be the pot calling the kettle 
black.


Idea:
We can use Twittwer API to automaticly publish a news like new 
betta. I did it via PHP for Drupal, and it wasn't so difficult.
So, we can create a package build process. It creates new betta, 
publish announcement in the D forum, in the D homepage, in the D 
dowload page and in the D twitter.


Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-19 Thread Johannes Pfau
Am Fri, 18 Oct 2013 11:45:27 -0700
schrieb Andrei Alexandrescu seewebsiteforem...@erdani.org:
 
  - We do not have any defined release timeline. When is it time to
  start prepping for a release? It's up to Walter's arbitrary decision
  for when this happens, he doesn't even talk to the community or
  contributors on whether it's a good time for a beta phase (maybe
  there's a huge or disruptive new pull request that's planning to be
  merged and a beta should be delayed).
 
 I understand how that can be a bother. Walter figures the time is
 ripe for a new release when we have enough compelling features and
 fixes. I'll try to make the appropriate announcements in the future
 prior to deciding on starting a beta.
 

Why is everyone here so obsessed with feature based releases? Quoting
Iain's post from 30.8:
 It has been about 3 months since the last release of the D 
 front-end implementation.  Three years experience and carrying 
 out over 100 merges into GDC tells me that each time the 
 development cycle starts edging towards it's fourth month, it 
 makes things an absolute nightmare, in both the time consumed 
 merging in the changes, and with time spent tracking down bug 
 reports for unittests/testsuite cases that test backend code 
 generation - with 2.060, 2.061 and 2.063 being the worst releases 
 I have ever had to deal with - before 2.060 the release schedule 
 (if it even qualifies as a 'schedule') was anywhere between 1-2 
 months.

Even a rough schedule (We try to release a new frontend version every 2
months) would help. Would it have been the end of the world if we just
released 2.064 two months ago and 2.065 now?

But what's worse: If we keep making feature based releases then the
criteria for release should be documented by those making the decision.
It's as simple as writing two sentences on a wiki page.
Right now I don't have any clue why the 'time is ripe' now and not 2
months ago, or one month ago, or in two weeks... It seems like Walter
is just flipping a coin every month (I don't say it is like that -
but it looks like that because there's no information on the release
criteria)

And btw: 5 months between releases is just way too long for users as
well. Although the features Walter envisioned for 2.064 may not have
been ready 2 months ago we could have shipped many bug fixes two months
earlier.


Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-19 Thread Benjamin Thaut

Am 18.10.2013 20:45, schrieb Andrei Alexandrescu:

Walter and I frequently think of ways to gently steer people toward
working on specific items. Votes, categorization, discussions are of
limited impact. On occasion we've emailed major contributors directly
and asked politely but point blank if they could look into an issue
(sometimes something they had an expertise in, or even an issue they had
caused). The rate of success has been very low. People still love
working on things, just not on the things they're told to.


I think you should continue to do that. Even if it only has a small 
sucess rate. I for example wouldn't have noticed that the stack trace 
code I submitted into druntime did cause long startup times for 
D-Programms that are run directly from the root of a disk drive if 
Walter wouldn't have send me the e-mail with the bug in it. After the 
e-mail I even fixed the bug ;-)


Kind Regards
Benjamin Thaut


Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-19 Thread Iain Buclaw
On Oct 18, 2013 3:09 PM, Andrej Mitrovic andrej.mitrov...@gmail.com
wrote:

 On 10/18/13, eles e...@eles.com wrote:
  IIRC, Walter wanted that file to always be named dmd.zip or
  dmd2.zip or whatever, in order to allow a permanent download
  link, while guaranteeing the file to be the latest version of the
  tool.

 This is the wrong approach. There should be a latest_beta file which
 holds the name of the latest beta zip. Then automatic download tools
 can read this file before attempting to download the beta. And for
 everyone else who manually downloads, they should be able to see what
 the latest version is on the website.

 This isn't a novelty approach, many open-source libraries host their
 sources in a tarball on an FTP server with a LATEST file.


+1 to tarballs and a LATEST file. Infact, a folder structure in the same
manner would go away long way too.

Eg:
2.063/
   dmd2.tar.gz
   dmd2.zip
2.063.1/
   dmd2.tar.gz
   dmd2.zip
2.064-development/
   dmd2.tar.gz
   dmd2.zip
LATEST/   - symlink to development or last stable.

Regards
-- 
Iain Buclaw

*(p  e ? p++ : p) = (c  0x0f) + '0';


Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-19 Thread Iain Buclaw
On Oct 18, 2013 7:45 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu 
seewebsiteforem...@erdani.org wrote:

 Walter scrambled to implement UDAs in a rush and breaking protocol in
order to win a corporate D user, Remedy Games. It was a major, exceptional
event. Would you have preferred the protocol to have been followed at the
cost of Remedy?


I would have preferred Remedy working with the community, rather than
talking behind closed doors to those who concern only them.  And I say this
as someone who was part involved before UDAs and the public announcement
came into the picture.

What I did find interesting, in reflection at dconf, was that Manu
countered all arguments (that I could recall) Walter made to keeping the
deprecation in place.

Regards
-- 
Iain Buclaw

*(p  e ? p++ : p) = (c  0x0f) + '0';


Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-19 Thread Iain Buclaw
On Oct 19, 2013 10:11 AM, Johannes Pfau nos...@example.com wrote:

 Am Fri, 18 Oct 2013 11:45:27 -0700
 schrieb Andrei Alexandrescu seewebsiteforem...@erdani.org:

   - We do not have any defined release timeline. When is it time to
   start prepping for a release? It's up to Walter's arbitrary decision
   for when this happens, he doesn't even talk to the community or
   contributors on whether it's a good time for a beta phase (maybe
   there's a huge or disruptive new pull request that's planning to be
   merged and a beta should be delayed).
 
  I understand how that can be a bother. Walter figures the time is
  ripe for a new release when we have enough compelling features and
  fixes. I'll try to make the appropriate announcements in the future
  prior to deciding on starting a beta.
 

 Why is everyone here so obsessed with feature based releases? Quoting
 Iain's post from 30.8:
  It has been about 3 months since the last release of the D
  front-end implementation.  Three years experience and carrying
  out over 100 merges into GDC tells me that each time the
  development cycle starts edging towards it's fourth month, it
  makes things an absolute nightmare, in both the time consumed
  merging in the changes, and with time spent tracking down bug
  reports for unittests/testsuite cases that test backend code
  generation - with 2.060, 2.061 and 2.063 being the worst releases
  I have ever had to deal with - before 2.060 the release schedule
  (if it even qualifies as a 'schedule') was anywhere between 1-2
  months.

 Even a rough schedule (We try to release a new frontend version every 2
 months) would help. Would it have been the end of the world if we just
 released 2.064 two months ago and 2.065 now?

 But what's worse: If we keep making feature based releases then the
 criteria for release should be documented by those making the decision.
 It's as simple as writing two sentences on a wiki page.
 Right now I don't have any clue why the 'time is ripe' now and not 2
 months ago, or one month ago, or in two weeks... It seems like Walter
 is just flipping a coin every month (I don't say it is like that -
 but it looks like that because there's no information on the release
 criteria)

 And btw: 5 months between releases is just way too long for users as
 well. Although the features Walter envisioned for 2.064 may not have
 been ready 2 months ago we could have shipped many bug fixes two months
 earlier.

And a big +1 to that as well.

Regards
-- 
Iain Buclaw

*(p  e ? p++ : p) = (c  0x0f) + '0';


Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-18 Thread Jacob Carlborg

On 2013-10-17 22:35, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:


- Walter is still not tagging the beta releases by the file name (it's
always dmd2beta.zip). I've complained about this several times and
IIRC someone else did as well at dconf (maybe I'm remembering wrong
though). They should at least be named as dmd2_064_beta1.zip,
dmd2_064_beta2.zip. And all of them should always be available for
download (including visibility on the download page), so people who do
not use Git or build manually from master can quicky check whether a
regression was introduced in a specific beta version.


Please make it dmd.2_064_beta1.zip and dmd.2_064_beta2.zip instead. 
This will automatically make it compatible with DVM. The important thing 
here is dmd.whatever.



So that's what I'm protesting about.


Agree with everything you said.

--
/Jacob Carlborg


Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-18 Thread deadalnix

On Friday, 18 October 2013 at 04:14:59 UTC, deadalnix wrote:

On Wednesday, 16 October 2013 at 17:41:37 UTC, deadalnix wrote:
Hum I have several regression is SDC's test suite. I have to 
investigate more to fix the code or submit bug report. It 
looks related to AA. What are the changes that affect AA in 
this new release ?


It turns out that is is a closure bug.

Sadly, this involve compiling SDC completely and run it on some 
test data. I can repro consistently, but it seems really hard 
to get a small repro. I just moved to the US, and am quite busy 
especially since the gvt shutdown have complicated things quite 
a bit.


Anyway, It is unlikely that I'll have a redux in the next ~2 
weeks. I'm not how we should proceed here, but the bug seems 
serious to me (the worst kind : everything compile fine, bug 
the codegen is bogus).


More detail, and that is getting weird. The bug seem limited to 
the use of unittest. Anyway, let's do some dustmitting tomorow 
and hope it goes somewhere.


Also, when NOT using the unittest flag, a lot of my code do not 
compile, symbol _D6object15__T7reserveTyaZ7reserveFNaNbNeKAyamZm 
is missing.


It seems I have 2 bad bugs here.


Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-18 Thread eles

On Friday, 18 October 2013 at 06:36:43 UTC, Jacob Carlborg wrote:

On 2013-10-17 22:35, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:

- Walter is still not tagging the beta releases by the file 
name (it's
always dmd2beta.zip). I've complained about this several times 
and
IIRC someone else did as well at dconf (maybe I'm remembering 
wrong

though). They should at least be named as dmd2_064_beta1.zip,
dmd2_064_beta2.zip. And all of them should always be 
available for
download (including visibility on the download page), so 
people who do
not use Git or build manually from master can quicky check 
whether a

regression was introduced in a specific beta version.


Please make it dmd.2_064_beta1.zip and dmd.2_064_beta2.zip 
instead. This will automatically make it compatible with DVM. 
The important thing here is dmd.whatever.


IIRC, Walter wanted that file to always be named dmd.zip or 
dmd2.zip or whatever, in order to allow a permanent download 
link, while guaranteeing the file to be the latest version of the 
tool.


In this case, I think the best compromise is simply to have the 
latest version download-able either as dmd2.zip and as 
dmd2.version.zip.





Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-18 Thread Walter Bright

On 10/17/2013 11:45 PM, deadalnix wrote:

Also, when NOT using the unittest flag, a lot of my code do not compile, symbol
_D6object15__T7reserveTyaZ7reserveFNaNbNeKAyamZm is missing.


See:

http://d.puremagic.com/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=11284



Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-18 Thread deadalnix

On Friday, 18 October 2013 at 07:21:47 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

On 10/17/2013 11:45 PM, deadalnix wrote:
Also, when NOT using the unittest flag, a lot of my code do 
not compile, symbol

_D6object15__T7reserveTyaZ7reserveFNaNbNeKAyamZm is missing.


See:

http://d.puremagic.com/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=11284


I blasted everything from dmd/druntime/phobos and my own project 
and recompiled everything from master for D projects and then my 
project is compiled with the new dmd, everything with the same 
flag.


I highly doubt that this fit into cases 1 to 4 as you mention. 
I'll however double check with that in mind.


That also doesn't explain why I get a closure bug (frame pointer 
or frame content is corrupted) when compiling with unittest. The 
code that fail isn't even unittested !


Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-18 Thread Andrej Mitrovic
On 10/18/13, eles e...@eles.com wrote:
 IIRC, Walter wanted that file to always be named dmd.zip or
 dmd2.zip or whatever, in order to allow a permanent download
 link, while guaranteeing the file to be the latest version of the
 tool.

This is the wrong approach. There should be a latest_beta file which
holds the name of the latest beta zip. Then automatic download tools
can read this file before attempting to download the beta. And for
everyone else who manually downloads, they should be able to see what
the latest version is on the website.

This isn't a novelty approach, many open-source libraries host their
sources in a tarball on an FTP server with a LATEST file.

Speaking of which, insisting on using .zip files is another beef I
have with Walter. The whole everyone on Windows is stuck in the 90s
mentality is plain wrong, especially for programmers. 7zip (or Peazip
or whatever) should be part of every modern programmer's toolbox.

If you've tried to investigate some source code of an open-source
library in the last 15 years you must have ran into the issue of
having to open tarballs, or more specifically non-zip/non-rar
archives. I just can't believe there would still be programmers that
use Winzip or the lousy built-in Windows unzipper.


Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-18 Thread Andrei Alexandrescu

On 10/18/13 7:08 AM, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:

On 10/18/13, eles e...@eles.com wrote:

IIRC, Walter wanted that file to always be named dmd.zip or
dmd2.zip or whatever, in order to allow a permanent download
link, while guaranteeing the file to be the latest version of the
tool.


This is the wrong approach. There should be a latest_beta file which
holds the name of the latest beta zip.


Correct, the latest beta is a link to the actual numbered file.


Speaking of which, insisting on using .zip files is another beef I
have with Walter. The whole everyone on Windows is stuck in the 90s
mentality is plain wrong, especially for programmers. 7zip (or Peazip
or whatever) should be part of every modern programmer's toolbox.


I don't think that makes a large difference. Probably the better thing 
to do is trimming the contents of the archive.


I'll come back with a reply to the longer message.


Andrei




Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-18 Thread Benjamin Thaut

Am 18.10.2013 09:33, schrieb deadalnix:

On Friday, 18 October 2013 at 07:21:47 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

On 10/17/2013 11:45 PM, deadalnix wrote:

Also, when NOT using the unittest flag, a lot of my code do not
compile, symbol
_D6object15__T7reserveTyaZ7reserveFNaNbNeKAyamZm is missing.


See:

http://d.puremagic.com/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=11284


I blasted everything from dmd/druntime/phobos and my own project and
recompiled everything from master for D projects and then my project is
compiled with the new dmd, everything with the same flag.

I highly doubt that this fit into cases 1 to 4 as you mention. I'll
however double check with that in mind.

That also doesn't explain why I get a closure bug (frame pointer or
frame content is corrupted) when compiling with unittest. The code that
fail isn't even unittested !


I have a similar issue than yours. The symbol that is missing for me is 
not even contained within any version or debug block. See:

http://d.puremagic.com/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=11280

Kind Regards
Benjamin Thaut


Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-18 Thread Jonathan M Davis
On Friday, October 18, 2013 08:57:00 Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
  Speaking of which, insisting on using .zip files is another beef I
  have with Walter. The whole everyone on Windows is stuck in the 90s
  mentality is plain wrong, especially for programmers. 7zip (or Peazip
  or whatever) should be part of every modern programmer's toolbox.
 
 I don't think that makes a large difference. Probably the better thing
 to do is trimming the contents of the archive.

The #1 reason why zip has got to go is symlinks. The shared libraries for 
Linux in the zip are messed up, because you can't put symlinks in the zip file. 
We really need to have OS-specific archives with the Linux one being something 
like .tar.gz or .tar.bz2.

- Jonathan M Davis


Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-18 Thread Andrej Mitrovic
On 10/18/13, Andrei Alexandrescu seewebsiteforem...@erdani.org wrote:
 I don't think that makes a large difference. Probably the better thing
 to do is trimming the contents of the archive.

Right, but this is more general. He also dislikes non-zip archives in
bugzilla attachments.


Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-18 Thread Rory McGuire
On 18 Oct 2013 19:45, Jonathan M Davis jmdavisp...@gmx.com wrote:

 On Friday, October 18, 2013 08:57:00 Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
   Speaking of which, insisting on using .zip files is another beef I
   have with Walter. The whole everyone on Windows is stuck in the 90s
   mentality is plain wrong, especially for programmers. 7zip (or Peazip
   or whatever) should be part of every modern programmer's toolbox.
 
  I don't think that makes a large difference. Probably the better thing
  to do is trimming the contents of the archive.

 The #1 reason why zip has got to go is symlinks. The shared libraries for
 Linux in the zip are messed up, because you can't put symlinks in the zip
file.
 We really need to have OS-specific archives with the Linux one being
something
 like .tar.gz or .tar.bz2.

 - Jonathan M Davis

Quite simply zip is not the correct format. Zip is normally only used to
distribute windows specific versions of software. Does it even support
executable permissions?


Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-18 Thread Andrei Alexandrescu
This is a good list of things that we could and should improve. Getting 
all minded to perfection would be difficult, but definitely worth living 
into.


I appreciate your enthusiasm for and involvement in D. At the top level 
a few simple realities need to be understood.


First, there is no OSS community that doesn't have its annoyances. I've 
been a direct participant to one other and am lurking on the forums of 
three more. Some are led by juntas of mini-tyrants; some are 
unnecessarily snooty; some are consumed by intestine fighting, politics, 
and horse-trading; and so on.


Second, some of your points revolve around the fact that Walter and 
myself are not as good as we should at certain tasks and roles, such as 
build master, PR person, manager, and operational officer. The general 
argument pattern revolves around I/we told Walter/Andrei several times 
they need to do X, and they forget/ignore/do it badly. Clearly Walter 
is a self-confessed mediocre build czar at best. But he's doing it 
because, although there is no shortage of suggestions on how he should 
be doing it, nobody has the time and inclination to actually _be_ the 
build czar (which is entirely understandable).


Within a traditional organization where people are paid to work on a 
certain project, the solution would be simple and obvious - Walter would 
be relieved of the roles he doesn't excel in, and left to focus on those 
he's really good at. Other people would fill in duties and 
responsibilities such as preparing betas, sending them out for testing, 
announcing them, etc.


Within our current organizational landscape, where nobody is paid to 
work on D (not _with_ D) except for myself, addressing issues such as 
we should have a better build master is much more difficult to address.


Third, for what it's worth, here's what I believe are the top issues 
with D today:


1. Nobody is being paid to work on D (aside from me since recently, and 
on work that would benefit my employer).


2. D is not backed up solidly by a large engineering organization.

3. We are unable to review and accept contributions at the rate they are 
arriving.


I tend to ask myself how various proposals for improving our process 
address these three key points. I believe your list effects mostly (3), 
albeit not directly.


More answers inline.

 - We do not have any vision or major plans ahead for the language.

Currently we're stuck in a bug-driven development environment, where
bugs are arbitrarily picked off of bugzilla and fixed. But there's no
major plans ahead, e.g. let's plan to fix these X major bugs for some
upcoming release. We can't force people to work on X or Y, but if
they're in a visual place and marked important and scheduled to be
fixed, this will give an incentive for contributors to work on these
problems.


Walter and I frequently think of ways to gently steer people toward 
working on specific items. Votes, categorization, discussions are of 
limited impact. On occasion we've emailed major contributors directly 
and asked politely but point blank if they could look into an issue 
(sometimes something they had an expertise in, or even an issue they had 
caused). The rate of success has been very low. People still love 
working on things, just not on the things they're told to.


We've added the preapproved tag - take a look: 
http://d.puremagic.com/issues/buglist.cgi?quicksearch=preapproved. A 
couple have opened pull requests, which have not yet received reviews 
yet (which is not my or Walter's fault as much as a larger community 
issue that we need to fix, see (3) above). Most don't. You yourself 
didn't find the time to update a task you volunteered on.


That said, it's entirely possible a formula for success does exist. 
Looking forward to proposals, like improving the visuals of bugs to be 
fixed. What I think is obvious is that solution involving more work for 
Walter and myself are unlikely to work well, for the simple reason we 
are both impatiently waiting for the sun to rise every day to do more 
work on D.



- We do not have any defined release timeline. When is it time to
start prepping for a release? It's up to Walter's arbitrary decision
for when this happens, he doesn't even talk to the community or
contributors on whether it's a good time for a beta phase (maybe
there's a huge or disruptive new pull request that's planning to be
merged and a beta should be delayed).


I understand how that can be a bother. Walter figures the time is ripe 
for a new release when we have enough compelling features and fixes. 
I'll try to make the appropriate announcements in the future prior to 
deciding on starting a beta.



- We do not have a defined timeline for the beta testing period. How
long before we decide that the beta has been tested for long enough
before a release is made? Again, it's up to Walter's decision.


We are generally aiming for two weeks, but it sometimes gets longer 
because of the impending regressions. 

Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-18 Thread Walter Bright

On 10/18/2013 12:33 AM, deadalnix wrote:

I highly doubt that this fit into cases 1 to 4 as you mention. I'll however
double check with that in mind.


I want to know about any other cases, so please investigate.



That also doesn't explain why I get a closure bug (frame pointer or frame
content is corrupted) when compiling with unittest. The code that fail isn't
even unittested !


Right, that sounds like some thing else.


Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-18 Thread Walter Bright

On 10/18/2013 11:17 AM, Rory McGuire wrote:

Does it even support executable permissions?


Yes, it does.



Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-18 Thread Rory McGuire
On 18 Oct 2013 21:00, Walter Bright newshou...@digitalmars.com wrote:

 On 10/18/2013 11:17 AM, Rory McGuire wrote:

 Does it even support executable permissions?


 Yes, it does.

Nice. It's there any particular reason you prefer zip?
I guess it's irrelevant what the current format is if we start using Nick's
builder.


Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-18 Thread Jason King


I get bitten by it locally too: if there's a test with an 
inaccurate sql query with time formatted as string, the sql 
server doesn't always compute it, because the default 
human-readable time format is taken from the current locale, 
and to parse it one first has to guess the format itself, which 
is quite difficult in a heterogeneous system.


DATE '2013-10-12' is the date October 12th to most SQL parsers.  
Locales and NLS in SQL have bitten me many times until I learned 
this.


Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-18 Thread Walter Bright

On 10/18/2013 12:14 PM, Rory McGuire wrote:

Nice. It's there any particular reason you prefer zip?


It's easy and works on all platforms.

I also point out that, for all platforms supported, when we do a release we also 
build a custom download package for each platform in that platform's preferred 
format. If these are inadequate, then bug reports need to be filed and pull 
requests issued for the package building scripts.


I expect that managing all this should be the responsibility of the Build Czar, 
which is an open position.




I guess it's irrelevant what the current format is if we start using Nick's
builder.


What I prefer is that all the packages are built automatically and daily by 
Brad's autotester, and that this process is controlled by scripts checked into 
github and that anyone who wishes to improve it can issue pull requests against 
it, and the Build Czar makes sure the process is working.




Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-18 Thread Andrej Mitrovic
On 10/18/13, Andrei Alexandrescu seewebsiteforem...@erdani.org wrote:
 nobody has the time and inclination to actually _be_ the
 build czar (which is entirely understandable).

Building something should be a command on the command-line. The whole
issue is about currently having a person in place of a tool.

 You yourself didn't find the time to update a task you volunteered on.

You mean https://github.com/D-Programming-Language/dmd/pull/2235 ?
I'll get back to it soon.

 We'll look into it, but this harkens back to the simple dynamics
 mentioned above. That is essentially a request for Walter to change the
 way he does releases, and people tend to get set in their ways and have
 difficulty finding the time to stop and change things when there are so
 many other things vying for their attention. The best solution here is
 if Nick (or someone else) would _be_ the build manager using those great
 tools that Nick wrote.

Like I said before, it's a command, you don't need a manager to do it,
you need a reliable tool. $ make_build is all it takes. This
manager and czar nonsense is really a corporate way of solving
issues. I can see how you might have gotten used to that when you have
people on a payroll that you can easily asign to a task. Even if
ultimately it's beneficial for having a tool in place of a person, a
company might decide against it if it can hammer the nail right away
and make the problem go away (until the problem comes walking back).
We're programmers, we should rely on tools for automated tasks.

And I want this not because I'm an automation freak (I'm not), but
precisely because Walter has screwed up the zip package many times
before. Hence, if Walter is the one who is currently in control, why
doesn't he interact with Nick to ease into using a build tool rather
than use some X number of scripts that he keeps on his PC only?

 As a simple start, did you consider announcing the beta yourself?

I didn't, because I disliked the current model and tied my hands when
I saw the new beta was out due to the sum of frustrations which I've
listed. This will change if the situation improves, of course.

 Anyone can tweet #dlang @D_programming, and in all likelihood we and many
 others would retweet.

Good. I'll certainly start to build a better online presence,
including tweeting, and I should start blogging too (there's plenty to
blog about w.r.t. D). I can't be the pot calling the kettle black.

 Also, did you consider submitting a pull request
 for placing the beta announcement on the homepage?

Good idea, and it's something I can work on.

But I hope you understand this isn't really about you or Walter not
doing these things yourself, but rather the fact that you didn't seem
to recognize this as being a problem. I've mentioned the build/release
issue many times, and now we finally have a pull request that could
make this problem go away. Just as I thought the problem was being
resolved, Walter announced the new beta. So clearly he still doesn't
see the pull request as being important.

 Probably that's a good thing to do, and easy enough. I don't think it
 would push the needle significantly.

But that's just the thing. The things I've listed are what pushed the
needled too much to the left for me. Small improvements like this
are great, and they add up. Otherwise people (like me) will keep
complaining about small issues, which collect and add up to the
frustration.

 We can't have a phone conversation with the community.

Why do you even need these phone conversations related to D or
decision making? The community has an insane number of intelligent
people who can contribute to resolving issues.

 Then, your first three points complain
 about a lack of leadership, and in the same breath you complain about
 there being too much of it.

Lack of leading the community and the development process, not lack of
decision making.

 Walter scrambled to implement UDAs in a rush and breaking protocol in
 order to win a corporate D user, Remedy Games. It was a major,
 exceptional event. Would you have preferred the protocol to have been
 followed at the cost of Remedy?

This is what doesn't inspire me at all. So in the future when company
X decides it wants some feature in the language you're saying we
should not follow the protocol like we do for all the other
user-requested features? Because the news of company X using D will
create headlines?

 I agree that's a problem. Probably what would help would be more quality
 reviews and pulls by our members with commit rights, of whom you are one.

I don't see what this has to do with not understanding Git basics. If
I merge more pull requests it isn't going to improve Walter's
knowledge of Git. Also, I tend to review pull requests which I
actually understand (doing otherwise would be counter-productive).
Sometimes I fall behind track because I also want to work on some of
my own D projects. I know we're all very busy, but I didn't say Walter
didn't want to review 

Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-18 Thread Walter Bright

On 10/18/2013 1:29 PM, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:

But I hope you understand this isn't really about you or Walter not
doing these things yourself, but rather the fact that you didn't seem
to recognize this as being a problem. I've mentioned the build/release
issue many times, and now we finally have a pull request that could
make this problem go away. Just as I thought the problem was being
resolved, Walter announced the new beta. So clearly he still doesn't
see the pull request as being important.


As I've posted elsewhere, I want very much to have the package build process to 
be a single command. I want Brad's autotester to build those packages as part of 
its regular build/test runs.


I'd like Brad, Nick, Jordi, Jacob, and anyone else involved with the installers 
to get together to get this done.


As to why I didn't do this for the beta zip - because the install package 
builders break with every new release, and for the initial beta I just wanted to 
see where we were with the regressions - and there's a lot of work to do just to 
fix those, before getting to a release candidate.


We do need a Build Czar, because the install builds break every time, due to 
things like failure to update the manifests, new build targets, new features, 
etc. Somebody has to be responsible for getting all the scripts tested and 
working again - which is also why I want this to be part of the autotester, so 
problems will show up sooner. (And heck, just building the zip file exposed a 
lot of breakage.)


Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-18 Thread Jonathan M Davis
On Friday, October 18, 2013 15:31:05 Walter Bright wrote:
 We do need a Build Czar, because the install builds break every time, due to
 things like failure to update the manifests, new build targets, new
 features, etc. Somebody has to be responsible for getting all the scripts
 tested and working again - which is also why I want this to be part of the
 autotester, so problems will show up sooner. (And heck, just building the
 zip file exposed a lot of breakage.)

I would suggest making a very prominent post about this in the newsgroup - 
that you want a build czar. If you make it clear that the position needs to be 
filled, and that it's your intention to offload that work to the build czar, 
then 
someone may step up to do it - especially if they're unhappy with the current 
process. Most of the push on that thus far has been towards trying to get you 
to change what you're doing, and I'm not sure that it's clear enough to 
everyone that you're ready and willing to have someone else shoulder those 
responsibilities. And without that being clear, I think that it's a lot less 
likely for someone to step up and offer to do it. We _have_ had some folks step 
up to start working on some of it (e.g. Nick with the zip file generation), so 
maybe making it clear that the position is open and that we want it filled will 
make it so that someone like that will step up and do it. Sometimes the problem
isn't finding someone who's ready and willing but rather making it clear what's
needed so that someone who's already ready and willing knows what they can do
to help.

- Jonathan M Davis


Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-17 Thread Rory McGuire
On 17 Oct 2013 00:40, bearophile bearophileh...@lycos.com wrote:

 Walter Bright:


 I'll go have myself flogged, then.


 But please be gentle and use something soft, like a fake snow leopard
tail:

Surely having to deal with c++ whenever Walter works on dmd is punishment
enough :D.


Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-17 Thread Jacob Carlborg

On 2013-10-16 23:16, Jonathan M Davis wrote:


Yes, but after Andej did the great changelog for 2.063, Walter publicly
admitted that he had been wrong about the changelog. Andrej showed Walter that
it _is_ worth doing something more than just a list of bugzilla issues. So, I
would assume that whatever Andrej is unhappy with Walter for is something
else.


Andrej wrote:

 I'm wondering whether there will be the nifty changelog like it
 was for 2.063?
 Andrej? :D

We'll see if someone else volunteers to do it. I'm not doing it out of 
protest.


http://forum.dlang.org/thread/l3chnd$1mvs$1...@digitalmars.com?page=4#post-mailman.2221.1381889714.1719.digitalmars-d-announce:40puremagic.com

I interpreted that as he originally created the changelog out of protest 
to Walter's claim that it's not necessary.


--
/Jacob Carlborg


Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-17 Thread Andrej Mitrovic
On 10/16/13, Brad Roberts bra...@puremagic.com wrote:
 That's not a what, that's a who.

- We do not have any vision or major plans ahead for the language.
Currently we're stuck in a bug-driven development environment, where
bugs are arbitrarily picked off of bugzilla and fixed. But there's no
major plans ahead, e.g. let's plan to fix these X major bugs for some
upcoming release. We can't force people to work on X or Y, but if
they're in a visual place and marked important and scheduled to be
fixed, this will give an incentive for contributors to work on these
problems.

- We do not have any defined release timeline. When is it time to
start prepping for a release? It's up to Walter's arbitrary decision
for when this happens, he doesn't even talk to the community or
contributors on whether it's a good time for a beta phase (maybe
there's a huge or disruptive new pull request that's planning to be
merged and a beta should be delayed).

- We do not have a defined timeline for the beta testing period. How
long before we decide that the beta has been tested for long enough
before a release is made? Again, it's up to Walter's decision.

Having a defined release cycle and a beta testing period will
ultimately be beneficial for everyone. People who are busy can
rearrange their schedule to make free time and ensure they have enough
time to test a beta compiler on their projects, and contributors to D
can prepare for a cycle of days or weeks where they can rapidly work
on reducing regressions and polish everything up for the release (e.g.
writing an elaborate changelog).

- We do not have a proper release system. Nick Sabalausky has been
working hard on one[1], but Walter seems to have completely ignored
it. It would have been a terrific opportunity to try and make it work
for this release. What better way to test it than to test it on a
release?

- The betas are still not visible. The homepage makes no notes on a
new beta being available, the download page does not list the betas
either, and AFAICT there's no RSS feed either. The social media groups
are not notified either (neither Andrei's nor Walter's twitter feed
make a mention of a new beta being out, the same applies to
https://twitter.com/D_Programming or the #dlang hash tags). To top it
all off, you cannot post to the dmd-beta newsgroups from the D Forums,
you have to separately register to this mailing list.

If we want user feedback on betas we absolutely must make the betas
visible and give an opportunity for people to post feedback.

- Walter is still not tagging the beta releases by the file name (it's
always dmd2beta.zip). I've complained about this several times and
IIRC someone else did as well at dconf (maybe I'm remembering wrong
though). They should at least be named as dmd2_064_beta1.zip,
dmd2_064_beta2.zip. And all of them should always be available for
download (including visibility on the download page), so people who do
not use Git or build manually from master can quicky check whether a
regression was introduced in a specific beta version.

- I still sigh when I hear about Walter and Andrei having private
phone conversations, or any kind of decision is made behind-the-scenes
rather than publicly where the community has a say in it. Walter's
implementation of UDAs directly in master which lead to having a
deprecated syntax even though nobody used this syntax is what comes to
mind.

- Both Walter and Andrei not following the rules and making novice
mistakes w.r.t Git and Github. Walter still seems to struggle with
basic usage of git, where people continually have to re-explain what's
wrong and how to fix an issue. I'm sorry, but if someone bought the
Git book years ago and is still struggling with *concepts* then no
amount of hand-guiding is going to help. And Andrei doing things like
merging a dozen pull requests at once, with complete disregard to the
fact that merging to master means other pulls could easily break (and
so master can be broken). You cannot make so many merges unless you're
absolutely sure each pull request does not interfere with another.

- Back to Walter, a few weeks ago he merged a pull request over night,
without regard to the pull request not being fully tested by the test
machines. The result? Master was broken **for the entire next day**.
Nobody knew which commit broke master, so nothing was done until
Walter came back to Github the next day and started reverting his
pulls. In the meantime the entire day was wasted because nobody's pull
request could get green. Luckily it was a sunday, so there weren't too
many complaints. But I could have easily merged a few pulls that day
(as it happens I like to do things on a sunday), and as a result we
would have a smaller pull queue.

--

There's just many things that are going plain wrong here, and a lot of
promises are always made but ultimately never delivered (whether it's
about breaking changes or an improved development process -- again
think about scheduling bug fixes 

Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-17 Thread deadalnix

On Wednesday, 16 October 2013 at 17:41:37 UTC, deadalnix wrote:
Hum I have several regression is SDC's test suite. I have to 
investigate more to fix the code or submit bug report. It looks 
related to AA. What are the changes that affect AA in this new 
release ?


It turns out that is is a closure bug.

Sadly, this involve compiling SDC completely and run it on some 
test data. I can repro consistently, but it seems really hard to 
get a small repro. I just moved to the US, and am quite busy 
especially since the gvt shutdown have complicated things quite a 
bit.


Anyway, It is unlikely that I'll have a redux in the next ~2 
weeks. I'm not how we should proceed here, but the bug seems 
serious to me (the worst kind : everything compile fine, bug the 
codegen is bogus).


Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-16 Thread Andrej Mitrovic
On 10/16/13, Andrei Alexandrescu seewebsiteforem...@erdani.org wrote:
 What are you protesting against?

Walter.


Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-16 Thread deadalnix

On Saturday, 12 October 2013 at 22:16:13 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

http://ftp.digitalmars.com/dmd2beta.zip

Current list of regressions:

http://d.puremagic.com/issues/buglist.cgi?query_format=advancedbug_severity=regressionbug_status=NEWbug_status=ASSIGNEDbug_status=REOPENED

This isn't a release candidate, in particular the documentation 
needs work, but we need to shake the tree for any undetected 
regressions.


Further beta announcements go in the dmd-beta mailing list.

Note that this release contains:

29 enhancements
307 dmd bugs fixed
14 druntime bugs fixed
73 phobos bugs fixed


Hum I have several regression is SDC's test suite. I have to 
investigate more to fix the code or submit bug report. It looks 
related to AA. What are the changes that affect AA in this new 
release ?


Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-16 Thread Anthony Goins
On Wednesday, 16 October 2013 at 13:34:04 UTC, Andrej Mitrovic 
wrote:
On 10/16/13, Andrei Alexandrescu 
seewebsiteforem...@erdani.org wrote:

What are you protesting against?


Walter.


The last change log was awesome.
I vote to get rid of Walter. :)


Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-16 Thread Brad Roberts

On 10/16/13 6:33 AM, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:

On 10/16/13, Andrei Alexandrescu seewebsiteforem...@erdani.org wrote:

What are you protesting against?


Walter.


That's not a what, that's a who.  Would you please elaborate on the what and why?  I haven't seen 
any obstructionism coming from anyone in terms of repeating the previous style for this releases notes.




Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-16 Thread Jacob Carlborg

On Wednesday, 16 October 2013 at 20:19:17 UTC, Brad Roberts wrote:

That's not a what, that's a who.  Would you please elaborate on 
the what and why?  I haven't seen any obstructionism coming 
from anyone in terms of repeating the previous style for this 
releases notes.


Originally Walter  thought it was enough to just list the 
bugzilla issues.


--
/Jacob Carlborg


Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-16 Thread Jonathan M Davis
On Wednesday, October 16, 2013 22:28:41 Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 On Wednesday, 16 October 2013 at 20:19:17 UTC, Brad Roberts wrote:
  That's not a what, that's a who. Would you please elaborate on
  the what and why? I haven't seen any obstructionism coming
  from anyone in terms of repeating the previous style for this
  releases notes.
 
 Originally Walter thought it was enough to just list the
 bugzilla issues.

Yes, but after Andej did the great changelog for 2.063, Walter publicly 
admitted that he had been wrong about the changelog. Andrej showed Walter that 
it _is_ worth doing something more than just a list of bugzilla issues. So, I 
would assume that whatever Andrej is unhappy with Walter for is something 
else.

- Jonathan M Davis


Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-16 Thread John Colvin
On Wednesday, 16 October 2013 at 20:28:42 UTC, Jacob Carlborg 
wrote:
On Wednesday, 16 October 2013 at 20:19:17 UTC, Brad Roberts 
wrote:


That's not a what, that's a who.  Would you please elaborate 
on the what and why?  I haven't seen any obstructionism coming 
from anyone in terms of repeating the previous style for this 
releases notes.


Originally Walter  thought it was enough to just list the 
bugzilla issues.


--
/Jacob Carlborg


He was proved wrong and IIRC correctly quite graciously admitted 
defeat.


Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-16 Thread Andrei Alexandrescu

On 10/16/13 2:16 PM, Jonathan M Davis wrote:

On Wednesday, October 16, 2013 22:28:41 Jacob Carlborg wrote:

On Wednesday, 16 October 2013 at 20:19:17 UTC, Brad Roberts wrote:

That's not a what, that's a who. Would you please elaborate on
the what and why? I haven't seen any obstructionism coming
from anyone in terms of repeating the previous style for this
releases notes.


Originally Walter thought it was enough to just list the
bugzilla issues.


Yes, but after Andej did the great changelog for 2.063, Walter publicly
admitted that he had been wrong about the changelog. Andrej showed Walter that
it _is_ worth doing something more than just a list of bugzilla issues. So, I
would assume that whatever Andrej is unhappy with Walter for is something
else.


Oh that was it? I recall Walter and I discussing two unrelated issue 
(null pointers and VMs) where I sort of reversed my view and admitted I 
considered my previous opinions wrong. He mentioned the changelog, and 
said boy was I wrong about that!


So Andrej consider yourself vindicated, in public and in private.


Andrei



Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-16 Thread Tourist
On Wednesday, 16 October 2013 at 20:28:42 UTC, Jacob Carlborg 
wrote:
On Wednesday, 16 October 2013 at 20:19:17 UTC, Brad Roberts 
wrote:


That's not a what, that's a who.  Would you please elaborate 
on the what and why?  I haven't seen any obstructionism coming 
from anyone in terms of repeating the previous style for this 
releases notes.


Originally Walter  thought it was enough to just list the 
bugzilla issues.


--
/Jacob Carlborg


http://forum.dlang.org/thread/ko84eb$1kfo$1...@digitalmars.com


Re: Start of dmd 2.064 beta program

2013-10-16 Thread Walter Bright

On 10/16/2013 6:33 AM, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:

On 10/16/13, Andrei Alexandrescu seewebsiteforem...@erdani.org wrote:

What are you protesting against?


Walter.



I'll go have myself flogged, then.


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