Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!

2016-12-10 Thread Igor Shirkalin via Digitalmars-d-learn
On Monday, 5 December 2016 at 20:25:00 UTC, Ilya Yaroshenko wrote: Hi e-y-e, The main problem with D for production is its runtime. GC, DRuntime, Phobos is big constraint for real world software production. The almost only thing I do is real world software production (basically math and

Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!

2016-12-08 Thread Ilya Yaroshenko via Digitalmars-d-learn
On Thursday, 8 December 2016 at 09:57:21 UTC, Guillaume Piolat wrote: On Wednesday, 7 December 2016 at 12:12:56 UTC, Ilya Yaroshenko wrote: R, Matlab, Python, Mathematica, Gauss, and Julia use C libs. --Ilya As a C lib, you have the possibility of not initializing the runtime, which leaves

Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!

2016-12-08 Thread Radu via Digitalmars-d-learn
On Thursday, 8 December 2016 at 11:09:12 UTC, ketmar wrote: what can be done, tho, is article (or series of articles) describing what exactly druntime is, how it is compared to libc and libc++, why it doesn't hurt at all, how to do "bare metal" with custom runtime, why GC is handy (and how to

Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!

2016-12-08 Thread Patric Dexheimer via Digitalmars-d-learn
On Thursday, 8 December 2016 at 12:10:55 UTC, Andrey wrote: On Thursday, 8 December 2016 at 11:09:12 UTC, ketmar wrote: what can be done, tho, is article (or series of articles) describing what exactly druntime is, how it is compared to libc and libc++, why it doesn't hurt at all, how to do

Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!

2016-12-08 Thread Andrey via Digitalmars-d-learn
On Thursday, 8 December 2016 at 11:09:12 UTC, ketmar wrote: what can be done, tho, is article (or series of articles) describing what exactly druntime is, how it is compared to libc and libc++, why it doesn't hurt at all, how to do "bare metal" with custom runtime, why GC is handy (and how

Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!

2016-12-08 Thread Chris via Digitalmars-d-learn
On Thursday, 8 December 2016 at 11:09:12 UTC, ketmar wrote: [...] what can be done, tho, is article (or series of articles) describing what exactly druntime is, how it is compared to libc and libc++, why it doesn't hurt at all, how to do "bare metal" with custom runtime, why GC is handy (and

Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!

2016-12-08 Thread Guillaume Piolat via Digitalmars-d-learn
On Thursday, 8 December 2016 at 11:32:56 UTC, Paolo Invernizzi wrote: On Thursday, 8 December 2016 at 11:09:12 UTC, ketmar wrote: what can be done, tho, is article (or series of articles) describing what exactly druntime is, how it is compared to libc and libc++, why it doesn't hurt at all,

Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!

2016-12-08 Thread Paolo Invernizzi via Digitalmars-d-learn
On Thursday, 8 December 2016 at 11:09:12 UTC, ketmar wrote: what can be done, tho, is article (or series of articles) describing what exactly druntime is, how it is compared to libc and libc++, why it doesn't hurt at all, how to do "bare metal" with custom runtime, why GC is handy (and how to

Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!

2016-12-08 Thread ketmar via Digitalmars-d-learn
On Thursday, 8 December 2016 at 10:49:40 UTC, Chris wrote: The "hard way" (no runtime/Phobos/GC) should not be the default and I hope that nobody is seriously suggesting this. It should be available in case anyone needs it. I dare doubt, however, that C/C++ programmers will take to D like

Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!

2016-12-08 Thread Chris via Digitalmars-d-learn
On Wednesday, 7 December 2016 at 16:43:54 UTC, bachmeier wrote: On Wednesday, 7 December 2016 at 16:15:32 UTC, Chris wrote: I don't understand this discussion at all. Why not have both? I don't need bare metal stuff at the moment but I might one day, and I perfectly understand that people may

Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!

2016-12-08 Thread Guillaume Piolat via Digitalmars-d-learn
On Wednesday, 7 December 2016 at 12:12:56 UTC, Ilya Yaroshenko wrote: R, Matlab, Python, Mathematica, Gauss, and Julia use C libs. --Ilya As a C lib, you have the possibility of not initializing the runtime, which leaves usable a part of phobos+druntime and it's only a matter of avoiding

Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!

2016-12-07 Thread Sebastien Alaiwan via Digitalmars-d-learn
On Wednesday, 7 December 2016 at 21:52:22 UTC, Jonathan M Davis wrote: On Wednesday, December 07, 2016 15:17:21 Picaud Vincent via Digitalmars-d- learn wrote: That being said, if someone wants to make their life harder by insisting on using D without even druntime, then that's their choice. I

Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!

2016-12-07 Thread bachmeier via Digitalmars-d-learn
On Thursday, 8 December 2016 at 02:10:35 UTC, Jon Degenhardt wrote: A cycle I think is common is for a researcher (industry or academic) to write functionality in native R code, then when trying to scale it, finds native R code is too slow, and switches to C/C++ to create a library used in R.

Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!

2016-12-07 Thread Jon Degenhardt via Digitalmars-d-learn
On Wednesday, 7 December 2016 at 16:33:03 UTC, bachmeier wrote: On Wednesday, 7 December 2016 at 12:12:56 UTC, Ilya Yaroshenko wrote: R, Matlab, Python, Mathematica, Gauss, and Julia use C libs. --Ilya You can call into those same C libs using D. Only if you want a pure D solution do you

Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!

2016-12-07 Thread Jonathan M Davis via Digitalmars-d-learn
On Wednesday, December 07, 2016 15:17:21 Picaud Vincent via Digitalmars-d- learn wrote: > However I think that to popularize/attract people to use D, it is > very important, to have a mechanism/feature that allows you to be > close to the "zero overhead" situation. You can do that without

Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!

2016-12-07 Thread bachmeier via Digitalmars-d-learn
On Wednesday, 7 December 2016 at 16:15:32 UTC, Chris wrote: I don't understand this discussion at all. Why not have both? I don't need bare metal stuff at the moment but I might one day, and I perfectly understand that people may need it. At the same time, there are people who are happy with

Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!

2016-12-07 Thread Picaud Vincent via Digitalmars-d-learn
On Wednesday, 7 December 2016 at 16:15:32 UTC, Chris wrote: I don't understand this discussion at all. Why not have both? I don't need bare metal stuff at the moment but I might one day, and I perfectly understand that people may need it. At the same time, there are people who are happy

Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!

2016-12-07 Thread bachmeier via Digitalmars-d-learn
On Wednesday, 7 December 2016 at 12:12:56 UTC, Ilya Yaroshenko wrote: R, Matlab, Python, Mathematica, Gauss, and Julia use C libs. --Ilya You can call into those same C libs using D. Only if you want a pure D solution do you need to be able to rewrite those libraries and get the same

Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!

2016-12-07 Thread Chris via Digitalmars-d-learn
On Wednesday, 7 December 2016 at 15:17:21 UTC, Picaud Vincent wrote: On Wednesday, 7 December 2016 at 11:48:32 UTC, bachmeier wrote: [...] I understand and I do agree with these points, honestly. These points are also the reason why I will maybe try to use D for my own codes (D is really

Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!

2016-12-07 Thread Picaud Vincent via Digitalmars-d-learn
On Wednesday, 7 December 2016 at 11:48:32 UTC, bachmeier wrote: I write D code all the time for my research. I want to write correct code quickly. My time is too valuable to spend weeks writing code to cut the running time by a few minutes. That might be fun for some people, but it doesn't

Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!

2016-12-07 Thread aberba via Digitalmars-d-learn
On Monday, 5 December 2016 at 17:18:25 UTC, e-y-e wrote: Currently I have been learning D for about a year and a half. This may seem like a short time, but this is the longest I have stuck with any language. I have only been learning for 4 years and I am currently in university studying first

Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!

2016-12-07 Thread Ilya Yaroshenko via Digitalmars-d-learn
On Wednesday, 7 December 2016 at 13:14:52 UTC, Kagamin wrote: On Monday, 5 December 2016 at 20:25:00 UTC, Ilya Yaroshenko wrote: Good D code should be nothrow, @nogc, and betterC. BetterC means that it must not require DRuntime to link and to start. Without runtime you won't have asserts (C

Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!

2016-12-07 Thread Kagamin via Digitalmars-d-learn
On Monday, 5 December 2016 at 20:25:00 UTC, Ilya Yaroshenko wrote: Good D code should be nothrow, @nogc, and betterC. BetterC means that it must not require DRuntime to link and to start. Without runtime you won't have asserts (C has them), bounds checking, array casts, string switch. Doesn't

Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!

2016-12-07 Thread Ilya Yaroshenko via Digitalmars-d-learn
On Wednesday, 7 December 2016 at 12:36:49 UTC, Dejan Lekic wrote: On Monday, 5 December 2016 at 20:25:00 UTC, Ilya Yaroshenko wrote: Good D code should be nothrow, @nogc, and betterC. BetterC means that it must not require DRuntime to link and to start. I started Mir as scientific/numeric

Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!

2016-12-07 Thread Dejan Lekic via Digitalmars-d-learn
On Monday, 5 December 2016 at 20:25:00 UTC, Ilya Yaroshenko wrote: Good D code should be nothrow, @nogc, and betterC. BetterC means that it must not require DRuntime to link and to start. I started Mir as scientific/numeric project, but it is going to be a replacement for Phobos to use D

Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!

2016-12-07 Thread Andrey via Digitalmars-d-learn
On Wednesday, 7 December 2016 at 09:56:20 UTC, ketmar wrote: On Wednesday, 7 December 2016 at 09:45:39 UTC, Andrey wrote: I think, a good way to step up for Dlang is to be C++ like Ada variant, with possibility to work without GC. you do know that you *can* use D without GC even now, do you?

Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!

2016-12-07 Thread Ilya Yaroshenko via Digitalmars-d-learn
On Wednesday, 7 December 2016 at 11:48:32 UTC, bachmeier wrote: On Wednesday, 7 December 2016 at 06:17:17 UTC, Picaud Vincent wrote: Considering scientific/numerical applications, I do agree with Ilya: it is mandatory to have zero overhead and a straightforward/direct interoperability with C.

Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!

2016-12-07 Thread bachmeier via Digitalmars-d-learn
On Wednesday, 7 December 2016 at 06:17:17 UTC, Picaud Vincent wrote: Considering scientific/numerical applications, I do agree with Ilya: it is mandatory to have zero overhead and a straightforward/direct interoperability with C. I am impressed by the Mir lib results and I think "BetterC" is

Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!

2016-12-07 Thread ketmar via Digitalmars-d-learn
On Wednesday, 7 December 2016 at 09:45:39 UTC, Andrey wrote: I think, a good way to step up for Dlang is to be C++ like Ada variant, with possibility to work without GC. you do know that you *can* use D without GC even now, do you?

Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!

2016-12-07 Thread Andrey via Digitalmars-d-learn
On Wednesday, 7 December 2016 at 07:27:53 UTC, ketmar wrote: On Wednesday, 7 December 2016 at 02:38:50 UTC, bpr wrote: It's a counterfactual at this point, but I would guess that if D had left out the GC in 2010 when D2 came out it would have been ahead of C++ in many ways and perhaps would

Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!

2016-12-06 Thread ketmar via Digitalmars-d-learn
On Wednesday, 7 December 2016 at 02:38:50 UTC, bpr wrote: It's a counterfactual at this point, but I would guess that if D had left out the GC in 2010 when D2 came out it would have been ahead of C++ in many ways and perhaps would have been able to peel off more C++ programmers c++

Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!

2016-12-06 Thread Picaud Vincent via Digitalmars-d-learn
On Tuesday, 6 December 2016 at 17:00:35 UTC, Jonathan M Davis wrote: So, while there are certainly folks who would prefer using D as a better C without druntime or Phobos, I think that you're seriously overestimating how many folks would be interested in that. Certainly, all of the C++

Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!

2016-12-06 Thread Jonathan M Davis via Digitalmars-d-learn
On Wednesday, December 07, 2016 02:38:50 bpr via Digitalmars-d-learn wrote: > On Tuesday, 6 December 2016 at 22:47:34 UTC, Jonathan M Davis > > We get plenty of folks who aren't big C/C++ programmers who are > > interested in D. Yes, the majority seem to have a C++ > > background, but we also get

Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!

2016-12-06 Thread bachmeier via Digitalmars-d-learn
On Wednesday, 7 December 2016 at 02:24:56 UTC, bpr wrote: If I really *want* to use a GC, say I'm writing a server and I believe that a well tuned GC will allow my server to stay alive much longer with less fragmentation, I'll probably skip D and pick Go or maybe (hmmm...) even Java because

Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!

2016-12-06 Thread bpr via Digitalmars-d-learn
On Tuesday, 6 December 2016 at 22:47:34 UTC, Jonathan M Davis wrote: On Tuesday, December 06, 2016 22:13:54 bpr via Digitalmars-d-learn wrote: On Tuesday, 6 December 2016 at 17:00:35 UTC, Jonathan M Davis wrote: Sure, there are folks who would prefer not to have to deal with the GC but throw

Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!

2016-12-06 Thread bpr via Digitalmars-d-learn
On Tuesday, 6 December 2016 at 22:23:25 UTC, bachmeier wrote: On Tuesday, 6 December 2016 at 22:13:54 UTC, bpr wrote: Those programmers who are comfortable working in a GC-ed language will likely eschew D because D's GC is really not that great. So someone working with Ruby is not going to

Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!

2016-12-06 Thread Timothee Cour via Digitalmars-d-learn
My 2 cents: for most applications, hotspots tend to be in a tiny percentage of the code (ie 90/10 rule where 10% of code accounts for 90% execution time, although my experience in large projects is even more unbalanced) ; throwing away druntime or GC for the whole codebase based on performance

Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!

2016-12-06 Thread aberba via Digitalmars-d-learn
On Tuesday, 6 December 2016 at 22:13:54 UTC, bpr wrote: On Tuesday, 6 December 2016 at 17:00:35 UTC, Jonathan M Davis I would guess that the vast majority of interest shown in Rust is from people who essentially want a better C or C++, with no runtime/GC. So, I think Ilya's point is very

Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!

2016-12-06 Thread Jonathan M Davis via Digitalmars-d-learn
On Tuesday, December 06, 2016 22:13:54 bpr via Digitalmars-d-learn wrote: > On Tuesday, 6 December 2016 at 17:00:35 UTC, Jonathan M Davis > > wrote: > > So, while there are certainly folks who would prefer using D as > > a better C without druntime or Phobos, I think that you're > > seriously

Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!

2016-12-06 Thread bachmeier via Digitalmars-d-learn
On Tuesday, 6 December 2016 at 22:13:54 UTC, bpr wrote: Those programmers who are comfortable working in a GC-ed language will likely eschew D because D's GC is really not that great. So someone working with Ruby is not going to want to work with D because of GC performance? I wonder what

Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!

2016-12-06 Thread bpr via Digitalmars-d-learn
On Tuesday, 6 December 2016 at 17:00:35 UTC, Jonathan M Davis wrote: So, while there are certainly folks who would prefer using D as a better C without druntime or Phobos, I think that you're seriously overestimating how many folks would be interested in that. Certainly, all of the C++

Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!

2016-12-06 Thread bachmeier via Digitalmars-d-learn
On Tuesday, 6 December 2016 at 20:01:38 UTC, Ilya Yaroshenko wrote: On Tuesday, 6 December 2016 at 17:00:35 UTC, Jonathan M Davis wrote: So, while there are certainly folks who would prefer using D as a better C without druntime or Phobos, I think that you're seriously overestimating how many

Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!

2016-12-06 Thread Ilya Yaroshenko via Digitalmars-d-learn
On Tuesday, 6 December 2016 at 17:00:35 UTC, Jonathan M Davis wrote: So, while there are certainly folks who would prefer using D as a better C without druntime or Phobos, I think that you're seriously overestimating how many folks would be interested in that. Certainly, all of the C++

Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!

2016-12-06 Thread Jonathan M Davis via Digitalmars-d-learn
On Tuesday, December 06, 2016 13:36:20 Ilya Yaroshenko via Digitalmars-d- learn wrote: > On Tuesday, 6 December 2016 at 13:02:16 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu > > wrote: > > On 12/6/16 3:28 AM, Ilya Yaroshenko wrote: > >> On Tuesday, 6 December 2016 at 08:14:17 UTC, Andrea Fontana > >> > >> wrote: >

Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!

2016-12-06 Thread Ilya Yaroshenko via Digitalmars-d-learn
On Tuesday, 6 December 2016 at 13:02:16 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: On 12/6/16 3:28 AM, Ilya Yaroshenko wrote: On Tuesday, 6 December 2016 at 08:14:17 UTC, Andrea Fontana wrote: On Monday, 5 December 2016 at 20:25:00 UTC, Ilya Yaroshenko Phobos/Druntime are pretty good for a lot of

Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!

2016-12-06 Thread Andrei Alexandrescu via Digitalmars-d-learn
On 12/5/16 3:49 PM, e-y-e wrote: If you don't mind me saying, I think Mir could be one of the best things for the future of D (along with LDC) and I'd be glad to help it on its way. Yes, Mir is awesome! I keep on thinking of ways to make it better supported by the language and infra. --

Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!

2016-12-06 Thread Andrei Alexandrescu via Digitalmars-d-learn
On 12/6/16 3:28 AM, Ilya Yaroshenko wrote: On Tuesday, 6 December 2016 at 08:14:17 UTC, Andrea Fontana wrote: On Monday, 5 December 2016 at 20:25:00 UTC, Ilya Yaroshenko Phobos/Druntime are pretty good for a lot of projects. In theory And what seem to be the issues in practice with code

Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!

2016-12-06 Thread Ilya Yaroshenko via Digitalmars-d-learn
On Monday, 5 December 2016 at 20:49:50 UTC, e-y-e wrote: On Monday, 5 December 2016 at 20:25:00 UTC, Ilya Yaroshenko wrote: [...] You know from the 15th December I will have a month of free time, and I would love to get myself up to speed with Mir to contribute to it. If you don't mind me

Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!

2016-12-06 Thread Ilya Yaroshenko via Digitalmars-d-learn
On Tuesday, 6 December 2016 at 08:14:17 UTC, Andrea Fontana wrote: On Monday, 5 December 2016 at 20:25:00 UTC, Ilya Yaroshenko Phobos/Druntime are pretty good for a lot of projects. In theory

Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!

2016-12-06 Thread Andrea Fontana via Digitalmars-d-learn
On Monday, 5 December 2016 at 20:25:00 UTC, Ilya Yaroshenko wrote: Good D code should be nothrow, @nogc, and betterC. BetterC means that it must not require DRuntime to link and to start. I started Mir as scientific/numeric project, but it is going to be a replacement for Phobos to use D

Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!

2016-12-05 Thread Nicholas Wilson via Digitalmars-d-learn
On Monday, 5 December 2016 at 20:49:50 UTC, e-y-e wrote: On Monday, 5 December 2016 at 20:25:00 UTC, Ilya Yaroshenko wrote: [...] You know from the 15th December I will have a month of free time, and I would love to get myself up to speed with Mir to contribute to it. If you don't mind me

Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!

2016-12-05 Thread sarn via Digitalmars-d-learn
On Monday, 5 December 2016 at 17:18:25 UTC, e-y-e wrote: Currently I have been learning D for about a year and a half. This may seem like a short time, but this is the longest I have stuck with any language. I have only been learning for 4 years and I am currently in university studying first

Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!

2016-12-05 Thread e-y-e via Digitalmars-d-learn
On Monday, 5 December 2016 at 20:25:00 UTC, Ilya Yaroshenko wrote: Hi e-y-e, The main problem with D for production is its runtime. GC, DRuntime, Phobos is big constraint for real world software production. Good D code should be nothrow, @nogc, and betterC. BetterC means that it must not

Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!

2016-12-05 Thread Ilya Yaroshenko via Digitalmars-d-learn
Hi e-y-e, The main problem with D for production is its runtime. GC, DRuntime, Phobos is big constraint for real world software production. Good D code should be nothrow, @nogc, and betterC. BetterC means that it must not require DRuntime to link and to start. I started Mir as

Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!

2016-12-05 Thread bachmeier via Digitalmars-d-learn
On Monday, 5 December 2016 at 17:18:25 UTC, e-y-e wrote: Currently I have been learning D for about a year and a half. This may seem like a short time, but this is the longest I have stuck with any language. I have only been learning for 4 years and I am currently in university studying first

[Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!

2016-12-05 Thread e-y-e via Digitalmars-d-learn
Currently I have been learning D for about a year and a half. This may seem like a short time, but this is the longest I have stuck with any language. I have only been learning for 4 years and I am currently in university studying first year of computer systems engineering. My main problem