Re: What kind of Editor, IDE you are using and which one do you like for D language?

2019-12-30 Thread Steven Schveighoffer via Digitalmars-d-learn

On 12/30/19 1:43 AM, H. S. Teoh wrote:

On Mon, Dec 30, 2019 at 01:26:11AM +, bachmeier via Digitalmars-d-learn 
wrote:
[...]

I have trouble seeing how an IDE is going to make anyone a better
programmer.

[...]

Yeah, I call BS on that statement.

OTOH, it's certainly a valid point that IDE support needs to be good in
order to appeal to that subset of programmers who prefer to work in an
IDE.


I don't use an IDE for D programming, just vim + cmdline.

However, I DO use one for php (Netbeans) and Swift (xcode).

In both cases, I'm not as familiar with the standard library. In the 
case of PHP, my IDE tells me types, so it can auto-complete member names 
(I need this for that project). And especially in the case of Swift, the 
long verbose names of everything are hard to guess and hard to remember. 
Not to mention the visual editing of the UI for iOS apps.


If I wrote more code in those languages, I might get to the point where 
I could remember all the proper names. But I still probably would use 
the code completion for it to avoid spelling errors -- something like 
iota is not readily descriptive of what it does, but it's a lot easier 
to spell correctly than didFinishSettingUpViewController or whatever the 
hell the real name is.


IMO, the two killer IDE features are code completion and syntax 
highlighting. Almost every editor (not IDE) already does syntax 
highlighting and many support code completion. Most of the other stuff 
is not critical for success. I can read the compiler outputs and figure 
out the locations of stuff. Yeah, it's nice to have the editor show me 
there is an error. But I can deal with it otherwise.


-Steve


Re: What kind of Editor, IDE you are using and which one do you like for D language?

2019-12-30 Thread H. S. Teoh via Digitalmars-d-learn
On Mon, Dec 30, 2019 at 04:13:03PM +, Patrick Schluter via 
Digitalmars-d-learn wrote:
[...]
> Good point. It also trains people to not be able to work without IDE.
> I see it at work with some of the Java devs who aren't even able to
> invoke javac in a command line and setting javapath correctly. Why?
> Because IDE shielded them from these easy things. It has also a
> corrolary that they're not capable to implement sometimes simple
> protocols or file processings without resorting to external libraries.
> A little bit like people needing even and odd library in Javascript.

This is the natural consequence of pursuing popularity by making things
accessible to the lowest common denominator.  You can't say it's wrong
-- because without it, the programming industry wouldn't be anywhere
near where it is today.

But OTOH, some aspects of programming are inherently hard, and no matter
what you do, you simply cannot remove the necessity of thought about
your programming problem.


T

-- 
I've been around long enough to have seen an endless parade of magic new
techniques du jour, most of which purport to remove the necessity of
thought about your programming problem.  In the end they wind up
contributing one or two pieces to the collective wisdom, and fade away
in the rearview mirror. -- Walter Bright


Re: What kind of Editor, IDE you are using and which one do you like for D language?

2019-12-30 Thread H. S. Teoh via Digitalmars-d-learn
On Mon, Dec 30, 2019 at 02:59:22PM +, bachmeier via Digitalmars-d-learn 
wrote:
[...]
> An IDE adds a crapload to the learning curve. It's terrible, because
> they need to memorize a bunch of steps when they use a GUI (click here
> -> type this thing in this box -> click here -> ...)
[...]

To me, that's not necessarily the failure of the principle of using an
IDE, but of the way in which existing IDEs are designed. Modern IDEs
suffer from the same wrong design principles as modern browsers: too
much accumulated technical debt and cruft accumulated from decades of
legacy code, old habits that die hard, inertia in the name of backwards
compatibility, and stagnation.  Somebody should seriously rethink the
whole design of the IDE experience.

I, for one, in spite of currently preferring to work with vim + CLI
tools, would love to see an IDE which does its job in a minimalistic,
on-demand way, in which you only pay for what you use, and it does not
take 5 minutes grinding your harddisk to next week and back again just
to start up.  What about an IDE that starts at lightning speed where you
can immediately start typing code?  Where you can just run the code
immediately -- with the compilation steps *shown* and saved in a
clear-text script that you can edit, as opposed to some mysterious black
magic welded shut under the hood? Where advanced features are loaded on
demand and unloaded when no longer used, as opposed to requiring GBs of
RAM just to start up?  The technology to do all this is already there,
it just takes someone to think outside of the box and design something
that doesn't look, run, and feel like an overweight elephant with an
obesity problem.

(OTOH, I may have just described Vim and the modern Linux shell. Oops.
:-D)


T

-- 
BREAKFAST.COM halted...Cereal Port Not Responding. -- YHL


Re: What kind of Editor, IDE you are using and which one do you like for D language?

2019-12-30 Thread Patrick Schluter via Digitalmars-d-learn

On Monday, 30 December 2019 at 14:59:22 UTC, bachmeier wrote:

On Monday, 30 December 2019 at 06:43:03 UTC, H. S. Teoh wrote:


[...]


Another way in which the IDE is "heavy" is the amount of 
overhead for beginning/occasional users. I like that I can get 
someone started using D like this:


1. Open text editor
2. Type simple program
3. Compile by typing a few characters into a terminal/command 
prompt.


An IDE adds a crapload to the learning curve. It's terrible, 
because they need to memorize a bunch of steps when they use a 
GUI (click here -> type this thing in this box -> click here -> 
...)


Back when I was teaching intro econ courses, which are taken by 
nearly all students here, I'd sometimes be talking with 
students taking Java or C++ courses. One of the things that 
really sucked (beyond using Java for an intro programming 
class) was that they'd have to learn the IDE first. Not only 
were they hit with this as the simplest possible program:


public class HelloWorld {
public static void main(String[] args) {
System.out.println("Hello, World");
}
}

but before they even got there, the instructor went through an 
entire lecture teaching them about the IDE. That's an effective 
way to make students think programming is a mind-numbingly 
stupid task on par with reading the phone book.


Contrast that with students opening a text editor, typing 
`print "Hello World"` and then running the program.


IDE support should obviously be made available. I think it 
would be a mistake, however, to move away from the simplicity 
of being able to open a text editor, type in a few lines, and 
then compile and run in a terminal. It's not just beginners. 
This is quite handy for those who will occasionally work with D 
code. For someone in my position (academic research), beginners 
and occasional programmers represents most of the user base.


Good point. It also trains people to not be able to work without 
IDE. I see it at work with some of the Java devs who aren't even 
able to invoke javac in a command line and setting javapath 
correctly. Why? Because IDE shielded them from these easy things. 
It has also a corrolary that they're not capable to implement 
sometimes simple protocols or file processings without resorting 
to external libraries. A little bit like people needing even and 
odd library in Javascript.


Re: What kind of Editor, IDE you are using and which one do you like for D language?

2019-12-30 Thread bachmeier via Digitalmars-d-learn

On Monday, 30 December 2019 at 06:43:03 UTC, H. S. Teoh wrote:

Generally, I find myself *much* more productive with CLI-based 
tools; IDEs are generally much heavier in terms of memory and 
CPU usage, and worst of all, require a GUI, which for me is a 
deal-breaker because I do a lot of work over SSH connections on 
not necessarily reliable networks. The amount of network 
traffic needed to operate a GUI over a remote desktop is just 
so much more than the much lighter weight of a few keystrokes 
that for me it's a very unproductive choice.  That, plus the 
amount of RAM + CPU + disk investment needed just to get an IDE 
to even start, to me cannot even begin to compare to how few 
resources are needed to be highly productive with a bare-bones 
Vim installation. I just have a hard time justifying such an 
investment when what I get in return is so undesirable within 
my operational parameters.


Another way in which the IDE is "heavy" is the amount of overhead 
for beginning/occasional users. I like that I can get someone 
started using D like this:


1. Open text editor
2. Type simple program
3. Compile by typing a few characters into a terminal/command 
prompt.


An IDE adds a crapload to the learning curve. It's terrible, 
because they need to memorize a bunch of steps when they use a 
GUI (click here -> type this thing in this box -> click here -> 
...)


Back when I was teaching intro econ courses, which are taken by 
nearly all students here, I'd sometimes be talking with students 
taking Java or C++ courses. One of the things that really sucked 
(beyond using Java for an intro programming class) was that 
they'd have to learn the IDE first. Not only were they hit with 
this as the simplest possible program:


public class HelloWorld {
public static void main(String[] args) {
System.out.println("Hello, World");
}
}

but before they even got there, the instructor went through an 
entire lecture teaching them about the IDE. That's an effective 
way to make students think programming is a mind-numbingly stupid 
task on par with reading the phone book.


Contrast that with students opening a text editor, typing `print 
"Hello World"` and then running the program.


IDE support should obviously be made available. I think it would 
be a mistake, however, to move away from the simplicity of being 
able to open a text editor, type in a few lines, and then compile 
and run in a terminal. It's not just beginners. This is quite 
handy for those who will occasionally work with D code. For 
someone in my position (academic research), beginners and 
occasional programmers represents most of the user base.


Re: What kind of Editor, IDE you are using and which one do you like for D language?

2019-12-30 Thread Ron Tarrant via Digitalmars-d-learn

On Sunday, 29 December 2019 at 21:25:44 UTC, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:
My experience is IDEs are just different, not necessarily 
better or worse. Just different enough that people used to one 
find the others difficult to learn.


Amen, hear-hear, and all that. I thought it was just me.


Re: What kind of Editor, IDE you are using and which one do you like for D language?

2019-12-30 Thread Patrick Schluter via Digitalmars-d-learn

On Sunday, 29 December 2019 at 14:41:46 UTC, Russel Winder wrote:
On Sat, 2019-12-28 at 22:01 +, p.shkadzko via 
Digitalmars-d-learn

wrote:
[…]
p.s. I found it quite satisfying that D does not really need 
an IDE, you will be fine even with nano.




The fundamental issue with these all battery included fancy IDE's 
(especially in Java) is that they tend to become dependencies of 
the projects themselves.


How many times have I seen in my professionnal world, projects 
that required specific versions of Eclipse with specific versions 
of extensions and libraries?
At my work we have exactly currently the problem. One developer 
wrote one of the desktop apps and now left the company. My 
colleagues of that department are now struggling to maintain the 
app as it used some specific GUI libs linked to some Eclipse 
version and they are nowhere to be found. You may object that 
it's a problem of the project management and I would agree. It 
was the management error to let the developer choose the IDE 
solution in the first place. A more classical/portable approach 
would have been preferable.


Furthermore, it is extremely annoying that these IDE change over 
time and all the fancy stuff gets stale and changed with other 
stuff that gets stale after time.
Visual Studio is one of the worst offenders in that category. 
Every 5 years it changes so much that everything learnt before 
can be thrown away.
IDE's work well for scenarios that the developers of the IDE 
thought of. Anything a little bit different requires changes that 
are either impossible to model or require intimate knowledge of 
the functionning of the IDE. Visual Studio comes to mind again of 
an example where that is horribly painful (I do not even mention 
the difficulty to even install such behemoth programs on our 
corporate laptops which are behind stupid proxies and follow 
annoying corporate policy rules).






Re: What kind of Editor, IDE you are using and which one do you like for D language?

2019-12-30 Thread rikki cattermole via Digitalmars-d-learn

On 30/12/2019 9:19 PM, Piotr Mitana wrote:

On Sunday, 22 December 2019 at 17:20:51 UTC, BoQsc wrote:
There are lots of editors/IDE's that support D language: 
https://wiki.dlang.org/Editors


What kind of editor/IDE are you using and which one do you like the most?


IntelliJ IDEA CE with this extension: https://intellij-dlanguage.github.io/

Wow, nobody else uses this?


I do.


Re: What kind of Editor, IDE you are using and which one do you like for D language?

2019-12-30 Thread Piotr Mitana via Digitalmars-d-learn

On Sunday, 22 December 2019 at 17:20:51 UTC, BoQsc wrote:
There are lots of editors/IDE's that support D language: 
https://wiki.dlang.org/Editors


What kind of editor/IDE are you using and which one do you like 
the most?


IntelliJ IDEA CE with this extension: 
https://intellij-dlanguage.github.io/


Wow, nobody else uses this?


Re: What kind of Editor, IDE you are using and which one do you like for D language?

2019-12-29 Thread H. S. Teoh via Digitalmars-d-learn
On Sun, Dec 29, 2019 at 09:25:44PM +, Adam D. Ruppe via Digitalmars-d-learn 
wrote:
> On Sunday, 29 December 2019 at 14:41:46 UTC, Russel Winder wrote:
> > Whilst many programmers are happy using 1970s approaches
> 
> Please. Have you actually spent the time to learn these systems in the
> last 40 years?
> 
> My experience is IDEs are just different, not necessarily better or
> worse.  Just different enough that people used to one find the others
> difficult to learn.
[...]

Yeah, vim (and probably emacs -- I don't use it so can't speak for it)
has come a *long* ways from its original vi roots. So has CLI
development tools in general. I think it's very unfair to equate vim to
the 1970's version of vi when comparing it to a GUI-based IDE.

Generally, I find myself *much* more productive with CLI-based tools;
IDEs are generally much heavier in terms of memory and CPU usage, and
worst of all, require a GUI, which for me is a deal-breaker because I do
a lot of work over SSH connections on not necessarily reliable networks.
The amount of network traffic needed to operate a GUI over a remote
desktop is just so much more than the much lighter weight of a few
keystrokes that for me it's a very unproductive choice.  That, plus the
amount of RAM + CPU + disk investment needed just to get an IDE to even
start, to me cannot even begin to compare to how few resources are
needed to be highly productive with a bare-bones Vim installation. I
just have a hard time justifying such an investment when what I get in
return is so undesirable within my operational parameters.  If I were
forced to use an IDE, I would be tempted to just stop programming at
all. It would certainly *not* make me a better programmer.


On Mon, Dec 30, 2019 at 01:26:11AM +, bachmeier via Digitalmars-d-learn 
wrote:
[...]
> I have trouble seeing how an IDE is going to make anyone a better
> programmer.
[...]

Yeah, I call BS on that statement.

OTOH, it's certainly a valid point that IDE support needs to be good in
order to appeal to that subset of programmers who prefer to work in an
IDE.


T

-- 
Today's society is one of specialization: as you grow, you learn more and more 
about less and less. Eventually, you know everything about nothing.


Re: What kind of Editor, IDE you are using and which one do you like for D language?

2019-12-29 Thread bachmeier via Digitalmars-d-learn

On Sunday, 29 December 2019 at 14:41:46 UTC, Russel Winder wrote:

Whilst many programmers are happy using 1970s approaches to 
programming using ed, ex, vi, vim, emacs, sublime text, atom, 
etc. Many programmers prefer using IDEs, and are better 
programmers for it.


I don't think it's black and white as you make it out to be. When 
I was programming with JVM languages (Clojure, Scala, a bit of 
Java) I used Eclipse. I found that to be the right approach for 
those languages because everything is done in terms of projects. 
You can offload the management of your projects to the IDE. When 
I use D, I think in terms of individual files, and the 
cost-benefit analysis comes out in favor of opening the files in 
a text editor.


This is not to say that there is anything wrong with using an 
IDE, it's simply a matter of preference. I have trouble seeing 
how an IDE is going to make anyone a better programmer. Perhaps a 
bit more productive, but carrying along the cost of using the 
IDE, as opposed to simply opening a file and typing. ed and vi 
have little in common with Emacs or Atom. Many C++ programmers 
have moved from using an IDE to using Vim, Emacs, and Atom the 
last few years. You might wish to check out this 10-minute 
presentation from the recent Emacs conf:

https://media.emacsconf.org/2019/19.html

It's definitely not 1970's technology.


Re: What kind of Editor, IDE you are using and which one do you like for D language?

2019-12-29 Thread Adam D. Ruppe via Digitalmars-d-learn

On Sunday, 29 December 2019 at 14:41:46 UTC, Russel Winder wrote:

Whilst many programmers are happy using 1970s approaches


Please. Have you actually spent the time to learn these systems 
in the last 40 years?


My experience is IDEs are just different, not necessarily better 
or worse. Just different enough that people used to one find the 
others difficult to learn.


why getting the D language plugin to CLion (and IntelliJ IDEA) 
is important for D traction.


When I tried loading a D file in android studio, the IDE offered 
to auto install a D language plugin.


I'm incompetent with IDEs so I can't speak to the quality of it, 
but it is there.


Re: What kind of Editor, IDE you are using and which one do you like for D language?

2019-12-29 Thread p.shkadzko via Digitalmars-d-learn

On Sunday, 29 December 2019 at 14:41:46 UTC, Russel Winder wrote:


The more the D community advertise that IDEs are for wimps, the 
less likelihood that people will come to D usage.


It is so. And yet, I can't use Java or Scala without IDE and I 
tried. I believe the same is true for C++.




Re: What kind of Editor, IDE you are using and which one do you like for D language?

2019-12-29 Thread Russel Winder via Digitalmars-d-learn
On Sat, 2019-12-28 at 22:01 +, p.shkadzko via Digitalmars-d-learn
wrote:
[…]
> p.s. I found it quite satisfying that D does not really need an 
> IDE, you will be fine even with nano.

Java people said this and we got Eclipse, Netbeans, and IntelliJ IDEA,
and many people were better Java (and Kotlin, Groovy, Clojure, Scala,
etc.) programmers because they used them.

C and C++ people said this and we got CLion, and many programmers were
better C or C++ programmers because they used it.

Go people said this and we got Goland, and many people were better
programmers because they used it.

Whilst many programmers are happy using 1970s approaches to programming
using ed, ex, vi, vim, emacs, sublime text, atom, etc. Many programmers
prefer using IDEs, and are better programmers for it.

D programmers can use text editors if they want, but many D programmers
would be much better D programmers for having a full IDE – which is,
for me, why getting the D language plugin to CLion (and IntelliJ IDEA)
is important for D traction.

The more the D community advertise that IDEs are for wimps, the less
likelihood that people will come to D usage.

-- 
Russel.
===
Dr Russel Winder  t: +44 20 7585 2200
41 Buckmaster Roadm: +44 7770 465 077
London SW11 1EN, UK   w: www.russel.org.uk



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Re: [OT] What kind of Editor, IDE you are using and which one do you like for D language?

2019-12-28 Thread Dennis Cote via Digitalmars-d-learn

On Tuesday, 24 December 2019 at 17:52:20 UTC, H. S. Teoh wrote:
 I just can't wait to see some poor sod attempt to reimplement 
a modern IDE in Javascript and succeed at reproducing 1980's 
IDE speeds and (lack of) quality.


Texas Instruments has already done this with its Code Composer 
Studio IDE https://dev.ti.com/ide. I have used the desktop 
version (an Eclipse based IDE) but not the cloud based version, 
so I can't comment on its speed. More info at 
http://www.ti.com/design-resources/embedded-development/ccs-development-tools.html#ccs-cloud


Dennis Cote




Re: What kind of Editor, IDE you are using and which one do you like for D language?

2019-12-28 Thread p.shkadzko via Digitalmars-d-learn

On Sunday, 22 December 2019 at 17:20:51 UTC, BoQsc wrote:
There are lots of editors/IDE's that support D language: 
https://wiki.dlang.org/Editors


What kind of editor/IDE are you using and which one do you like 
the most?


Tried almost all of them that support D including Dlang IDE, 
Dexed, Poseidon, Zeus but VS Code is currently the best among fat 
IDEs. Used VS Code for a while but eventually found it cumbersome 
and taking too much space. Just look at those lovely GBs 
scattered around your system! I then switched entirely to Vim and 
never ever been that happy.


p.s. I found it quite satisfying that D does not really need an 
IDE, you will be fine even with nano.


Re: [OT] What kind of Editor, IDE you are using and which one do you like for D language?

2019-12-28 Thread Ron Tarrant via Digitalmars-d-learn

On Tue, Dec 24, 2019 at 10:18:49AM +, Russel Winder via

Surely a hardcore retro guy would be using vi not vim?


On Tuesday, 24 December 2019 at 17:52:20 UTC, H. S. Teoh wrote:
Haha, well, a *real* hardcore retro guy would be using a 
magnet, a pin, and a *really* steady hand, to flip individual 
bits on an exposed harddisk platter to create the executable in 
the filesystem directly, one bit at a time.


Of course, one could also just use emacs:


You guys crack me up. :)


Re: [OT] What kind of Editor, IDE you are using and which one do you like for D language?

2019-12-26 Thread Steven Schveighoffer via Digitalmars-d-learn

On 12/24/19 5:18 AM, Russel Winder wrote:

On Mon, 2019-12-23 at 08:09 -0800, H. S. Teoh via Digitalmars-d-learn
wrote:
[…]


No idea, I use vanilla vim (not even with syntax highlighting -- I'm
a
hardcore retro guy).


Surely a hardcore retro guy would be using vi not vim? Indeed wouldn't
a real hardcore retro guy be using ed?



Pt. Real hardcore users use ed.

 When I log into my Xenix system with my 110 baud teletype, both vi
 *and* Emacs are just too damn slow. They print useless messages like,
 'C-h for help' and '"foo" File is read only'. So I use the editor
 that doesn't waste my VALUABLE time.

 Ed, man! !man ed

 ED(1) UNIX Programmer's Manual ED(1)

 NAME
 ed - text editor

 SYNOPSIS
 ed [ - ] [ -x ] [ name ]
 DESCRIPTION
 Ed is the standard text editor.
 -

 Computer Scientists love ed, not just because it comes first
 alphabetically, but because it's the standard. Everyone else loves ed
 because it's ED!

 "Ed is the standard text editor."

 And ed doesn't waste space on my Timex Sinclair. Just look:

 -rwxr-xr-x 1 root 24 Oct 29 1929 /bin/ed
 -rwxr-xr-t 4 root 1310720 Jan 1 1970 /usr/ucb/vi
 -rwxr-xr-x 1 root 5.89824e37 Oct 22 1990 /usr/bin/emacs

 Of course, on the system *I* administrate, vi is symlinked to ed.
 Emacs has been replaced by a shell script which 1) Generates a syslog
 message at level LOG_EMERG; 2) reduces the user's disk quota by 100K;
 and 3) RUNS ED!!

 "Ed is the standard text editor."

 Let's look at a typical novice's session with the mighty ed:

 golem> ed

 ?
 help
 ?
 ?
 ?
 quit
 ?
 exit
 ?
 bye
 ?
 hello?
 ?
 eat flaming death
 ?
 ^C
 ?
 ^C
 ?
 ^D
 ?

 ---
 Note the consistent user interface and error reportage. Ed is
 generous enough to flag errors, yet prudent enough not to overwhelm
 the novice with verbosity.

 "Ed is the standard text editor."

 Ed, the greatest WYGIWYG editor of all.

 ED IS THE TRUE PATH TO NIRVANA! ED HAS BEEN THE CHOICE OF
 EDUCATED AND IGNORANT ALIKE FOR CENTURIES! ED WILL NOT CORRUPT YOUR
 PRECIOUS BODILY FLUIDS!! ED IS THE STANDARD TEXT EDITOR! ED MAKES THE SUN
 SHINE AND THE BIRDS SING AND THE GRASS GREEN!!

 When I use an editor, I don't want eight extra KILOBYTES of worthless
 help screens and cursor positioning code! I just want an EDitor!!
 Not a "viitor". Not a "emacsitor". Those aren't even WORDS ED!
 ED! ED IS THE STANDARD!!!

 TEXT EDITOR.

 When IBM, in its ever-present omnipotence, needed to base their
 "edlin" on a UNIX standard, did they mimic vi? No. Emacs? Surely
 you jest. They chose the most karmic editor of all. The standard.

 Ed is for those who can *remember* what they are working on. If you
 are an idiot, you should use Emacs. If you are an Emacs, you should
 not be vi. If you use ED, you are on THE PATH TO REDEMPTION. THE
 SO-CALLED "VISUAL" EDITORS HAVE BEEN PLACED HERE BY ED TO
 TEMPT THE FAITHLESS. DO NOT GIVE IN!!! THE MIGHTY ED HAS SPOKEN!!!

 --
 Miquel van Smoorenburg | Our vision is to speed up time,
 miqu...@cistron.nl | eventually eliminating it.



I left in the byline above, because I don't want to take credit ;)

-Steve


Re: [OT] What kind of Editor, IDE you are using and which one do you like for D language?

2019-12-26 Thread Russel Winder via Digitalmars-d-learn
On Tue, 2019-12-24 at 09:52 -0800, H. S. Teoh via Digitalmars-d-learn
wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 24, 2019 at 10:18:49AM +, Russel Winder via
> Digitalmars-d-learn wrote:

[…]
> Haha, well, a *real* hardcore retro guy would be using a magnet, a
> pin,
> and a *really* steady hand, to flip individual bits on an exposed
> harddisk platter to create the executable in the filesystem directly,
> one bit at a time.
> 
> Of course, one could also just use emacs:
> 
>   https://xkcd.com/378/
> 
> :-D

One always returns to using Emacs for text editing – it is the One True
Editor™ (and kitchen sink).

[…]
> It wasn't so much wrong highlighting for me, it was the fact that it
> was
> highlighted at all.  I find the kaleidoscopic colors extremely
> distracting and disruptive to my focusing on the textual content of
> the
> code.  Not to mention that the colors usually clash horribly with my
> chosen foreground/background color scheme in my terminal, which only
> adds unreadable bits of text to the problem.

Emacs and JetBrains CLion seem to work fine for me in both light-on-
dark and dark-on-light mode, so syntax highlighting works for me for
the editors I use.

I keep trying VIM, Atom, VSCode, SublimeText, Geany, etc. from time to
time, but I get bored trying to get them set up to be even remotely
sensible and just go back to Emacs.

[…]
> 
> Actually, I wouldn't mind a syntax-oriented editor, if one could be
> made
> that wasn't artificially restrictive in terms of editing various
> different languages and various different flavors of different
> languages, such that it could be used as a general tool.

There is a movement to try and bring back what could be described as
SOEs, but I am not seeing that much traction as yet. The incumbent
editors that use vast quantities of CPU to reconstruct ASTs on the fly
seem to dominate mindset.

[…]
> 
> This madness is nothing compared to the utter, gibbering insanity of
> modern web design, in which modern 8-core CPUs with GHz speeds and
> GBs
> of memory run dead-simple applications like word processors at the
> *same* speeds (if not worse!) as WordStar would run back in 1980 on
> an 8
> *Hz* CPU with 64KB of RAM.  With exactly the same lag between
> keystrokes, and the same (lack of) reliability requiring frequent
> backups and incessant restarting.
> 
> Now *that* I call a mad, mad world.  The madness of IDEs parsing and
> reparsing the same AST over and over again umpteen times per second
> doesn't even begin to scratch the surface of *this* madness. I just
> can't wait to see some poor sod attempt to reimplement a modern IDE
> in
> Javascript and succeed at reproducing 1980's IDE speeds and (lack of)
> quality.  And of course the masses would slobber all over it and hail
> it
> as "progress".  The browser king has no clothes, and everybody sees
> invisible.

I can only agree with this rant. The modern world of software has
increasingly become about doing less and less useful to the end user
with more and more hardware resources.
 
-- 
Russel.
===
Dr Russel Winder  t: +44 20 7585 2200
41 Buckmaster Roadm: +44 7770 465 077
London SW11 1EN, UK   w: www.russel.org.uk



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Re: What kind of Editor, IDE you are using and which one do you like for D language?

2019-12-26 Thread Ron Tarrant via Digitalmars-d-learn

On Thursday, 26 December 2019 at 10:32:10 UTC, Andre Pany wrote:

I am not sure wheter you talk about the same issue but the 
explorer view was also the only reason VSC was totally unusable 
for me. The lack of file/folder icons really questionable.

Recently I found out that it is possible to configure them.


Interesting. I'll have to look into that. Thanks, Andre.


Re: What kind of Editor, IDE you are using and which one do you like for D language?

2019-12-26 Thread Andre Pany via Digitalmars-d-learn

On Thursday, 26 December 2019 at 10:15:17 UTC, Ron Tarrant wrote:
On Wednesday, 25 December 2019 at 13:32:45 UTC, Mike Parker 
wrote:


For a while, typing in VS Code was clunky compared to Sublime. 
I gave it a spin every couple of months to see how it was 
shaping up and eventually I stopped noticing the difference.


Ah! Good to know. Thanks, Mike. Once they add a proper file 
explorer sidebar, I may switch.


I am not sure wheter you talk about the same issue but the 
explorer view was also the only reason VSC was totally unusable 
for me. The lack of file/folder icons really questionable.

Recently I found out that it is possible to configure them.

Kind regards
Andre


Re: What kind of Editor, IDE you are using and which one do you like for D language?

2019-12-26 Thread Ron Tarrant via Digitalmars-d-learn

On Wednesday, 25 December 2019 at 13:32:45 UTC, Mike Parker wrote:

For a while, typing in VS Code was clunky compared to Sublime. 
I gave it a spin every couple of months to see how it was 
shaping up and eventually I stopped noticing the difference.


Ah! Good to know. Thanks, Mike. Once they add a proper file 
explorer sidebar, I may switch.


Re: What kind of Editor, IDE you are using and which one do you like for D language?

2019-12-25 Thread Mike Parker via Digitalmars-d-learn

On Wednesday, 25 December 2019 at 10:57:45 UTC, Ron Tarrant wrote:

On Tuesday, 24 December 2019 at 16:43:06 UTC, Mike Parker wrote:
But now that VS Code's

performance is within my tolerance range


Just curious what you mean by this, Mike.


For a while, typing in VS Code was clunky compared to Sublime. I 
gave it a spin every couple of months to see how it was shaping 
up and eventually I stopped noticing the difference.


Re: What kind of Editor, IDE you are using and which one do you like for D language?

2019-12-25 Thread Ron Tarrant via Digitalmars-d-learn

On Sunday, 22 December 2019 at 17:20:51 UTC, BoQsc wrote:
What kind of editor/IDE are you using and which one do you like 
the most?


I was using PSPad up until a few months ago when I realized 
Notepad++ (finally) has a 64-bit version of the Explorer plugin. 
With custom GtkD syntax highlighting for both, it was Notepad++'s 
ability to show me my working system directory in a sidebar on 
start-up that got me to switch. PSPad will show it, but only 
after I manually switch from project view.




Re: What kind of Editor, IDE you are using and which one do you like for D language?

2019-12-25 Thread Ron Tarrant via Digitalmars-d-learn

On Tuesday, 24 December 2019 at 16:43:06 UTC, Mike Parker wrote:
But now that VS Code's

performance is within my tolerance range


Just curious what you mean by this, Mike.


Re: What kind of Editor, IDE you are using and which one do you like for D language?

2019-12-24 Thread Murilo via Digitalmars-d-learn

On Sunday, 22 December 2019 at 17:20:51 UTC, BoQsc wrote:
There are lots of editors/IDE's that support D language: 
https://wiki.dlang.org/Editors


What kind of editor/IDE are you using and which one do you like 
the most?


I use Notepad++ on Windows and Bluefish on Linux. I'm a 
minimalist guy, I prefer a light text editor than a heavy IDE.


Re: What kind of Editor, IDE you are using and which one do you like for D language?

2019-12-24 Thread IGotD- via Digitalmars-d-learn

On Sunday, 22 December 2019 at 17:20:51 UTC, BoQsc wrote:
There are lots of editors/IDE's that support D language: 
https://wiki.dlang.org/Editors


What kind of editor/IDE are you using and which one do you like 
the most?


I use VisualStudio with VisualD. The IDE is ok and debugging 
capabilities are good. Unfortunately you don't get full debugging 
with LDC, only with DMD.


Re: [OT] What kind of Editor, IDE you are using and which one do you like for D language?

2019-12-24 Thread H. S. Teoh via Digitalmars-d-learn
On Tue, Dec 24, 2019 at 07:46:27PM +, Adam D. Ruppe via Digitalmars-d-learn 
wrote:
[...]
> I just got sick of ls printing green on white and hurting my eyes. Or
> blue on black.

Haha, one of the first things I do upon installing a new Linux system is
to turn off ls colors. :-D  Hurts the eyes and grates the nerves.


> > With exactly the same lag between keystrokes, and the same (lack of)
> > reliability requiring frequent backups and incessant restarting.
> 
> lol lag between keystrokes is so much worse now than it was in the day

Lol it's true... and yet people still slobber all over "browser apps"
like they are some kind of revolutionary thing. More like devolutionary,
I say.


T

-- 
Без труда не выловишь и рыбку из пруда. 


Re: [OT] What kind of Editor, IDE you are using and which one do you like for D language?

2019-12-24 Thread Adam D. Ruppe via Digitalmars-d-learn

On Tuesday, 24 December 2019 at 17:52:20 UTC, H. S. Teoh wrote:
Not to mention that the colors usually clash horribly with my 
chosen foreground/background color scheme in my terminal, which 
only adds unreadable bits of text to the problem.


This is one of the reasons why I made a custom terminal emulator. 
Mine sees the colors as just suggestions, and adjusts them based 
on what is under it to maintain readability.


I just got sick of ls printing green on white and hurting my 
eyes. Or blue on black.



With exactly the same lag between keystrokes, and the same 
(lack of) reliability requiring frequent backups and incessant 
restarting.


lol lag between keystrokes is so much worse now than it was in 
the day


Re: [OT] What kind of Editor, IDE you are using and which one do you like for D language?

2019-12-24 Thread H. S. Teoh via Digitalmars-d-learn
On Tue, Dec 24, 2019 at 10:18:49AM +, Russel Winder via Digitalmars-d-learn 
wrote:
> On Mon, 2019-12-23 at 08:09 -0800, H. S. Teoh via Digitalmars-d-learn
> wrote:
> […]
> > No idea, I use vanilla vim (not even with syntax highlighting -- I'm
> > a hardcore retro guy).
> 
> Surely a hardcore retro guy would be using vi not vim? Indeed wouldn't
> a real hardcore retro guy be using ed?
> 
> :-)

Haha, well, a *real* hardcore retro guy would be using a magnet, a pin,
and a *really* steady hand, to flip individual bits on an exposed
harddisk platter to create the executable in the filesystem directly,
one bit at a time.

Of course, one could also just use emacs:

https://xkcd.com/378/

:-D


> I used to be anti syntax highlighting in editors, but it was because
> the highlighting was usually crap or worse wrong. Once I started using
> syntax highlighting where the highlighting was correct with respect to
> the language definition, I found it indispensable.

It wasn't so much wrong highlighting for me, it was the fact that it was
highlighted at all.  I find the kaleidoscopic colors extremely
distracting and disruptive to my focusing on the textual content of the
code.  Not to mention that the colors usually clash horribly with my
chosen foreground/background color scheme in my terminal, which only
adds unreadable bits of text to the problem.


> Of course the real problem is that we store text of code rather than
> AST of the code,  but that war got lost in the 1980s when syntax
> oriented editors were rejected in favour of text editors.

Actually, I wouldn't mind a syntax-oriented editor, if one could be made
that wasn't artificially restrictive in terms of editing various
different languages and various different flavors of different
languages, such that it could be used as a general tool.


> Now editors and IDE spend all their CPU cycles reconstructing and
> maintaining the AST of the code from the text representation.

Yet another reason to avoid syntax highlighting altogether. ;-)


> It's a mad, mad, mad world.

This madness is nothing compared to the utter, gibbering insanity of
modern web design, in which modern 8-core CPUs with GHz speeds and GBs
of memory run dead-simple applications like word processors at the
*same* speeds (if not worse!) as WordStar would run back in 1980 on an 8
*Hz* CPU with 64KB of RAM.  With exactly the same lag between
keystrokes, and the same (lack of) reliability requiring frequent
backups and incessant restarting.

Now *that* I call a mad, mad world.  The madness of IDEs parsing and
reparsing the same AST over and over again umpteen times per second
doesn't even begin to scratch the surface of *this* madness. I just
can't wait to see some poor sod attempt to reimplement a modern IDE in
Javascript and succeed at reproducing 1980's IDE speeds and (lack of)
quality.  And of course the masses would slobber all over it and hail it
as "progress".  The browser king has no clothes, and everybody sees
invisible.


T

-- 
If you want to solve a problem, you need to address its root cause, not
just its symptoms. Otherwise it's like treating cancer with Tylenol...


Re: What kind of Editor, IDE you are using and which one do you like for D language?

2019-12-24 Thread Marcone via Digitalmars-d-learn

On Sunday, 22 December 2019 at 17:20:51 UTC, BoQsc wrote:
There are lots of editors/IDE's that support D language: 
https://wiki.dlang.org/Editors


What kind of editor/IDE are you using and which one do you like 
the most?


I am using "Sublime Text" for code Dlang.


Re: What kind of Editor, IDE you are using and which one do you like for D language?

2019-12-24 Thread Mike Parker via Digitalmars-d-learn

On Monday, 23 December 2019 at 20:45:53 UTC, TheGag96 wrote:


I've loved Sublime for years. I use it for everything, really. 
So pretty, so fast.


I really like Sublime, too. Paid for it. But now that VS Code's 
performance is within my tolerance range, the built-in console 
makes the difference. I've got the Terminal plugin for Sublime 
that allows you to press ctrl-shift-alt-t to open the terminal in 
the project folder, but it just isn't the same experience.


I still use Sublime when I just need a quick edit or single file. 
Otherwise, VS Code has become my goto editor for any multi-file 
D, Markdown, HTML, etc., project.


Re: What kind of Editor, IDE you are using and which one do you like for D language?

2019-12-24 Thread berni44 via Digitalmars-d-learn

On Sunday, 22 December 2019 at 17:20:51 UTC, BoQsc wrote:
What kind of editor/IDE are you using and which one do you like 
the most?


I'm using sed... - no, just joking. Actually I use jed (because I 
did for 20 years now) with emacs keybindings in C mode, but I 
cannot recommend it for D. There are several limitations, for 
example jed can only handle two different types of comments, let 
alone nested comments. I always think, I should change to 
something better, but as I'm so used to it, it would be a rather 
big deal. I also thought about porting jed to d (than it's 
de(a)d?), but this sounds like one of those life long projects, 
I'm not sure I want to start that.


Re: [OT] What kind of Editor, IDE you are using and which one do you like for D language?

2019-12-24 Thread Russel Winder via Digitalmars-d-learn
On Mon, 2019-12-23 at 08:09 -0800, H. S. Teoh via Digitalmars-d-learn
wrote:
[…]
> 
> No idea, I use vanilla vim (not even with syntax highlighting -- I'm
> a
> hardcore retro guy).

Surely a hardcore retro guy would be using vi not vim? Indeed wouldn't
a real hardcore retro guy be using ed?

:-)

I used to be anti syntax highlighting in editors, but it was because
the highlighting was usually crap or worse wrong. Once I started using
syntax highlighting where the highlighting was correct with respect to
the language definition, I found it indispensable.

Of course the real problem is that we store text of code rather than
AST of the code,  but that war got lost in the 1980s when syntax
oriented editors were rejected in favour of text editors. Now editors
and IDE spend all their CPU cycles reconstructing and maintaining the
AST of the code from the text representation.

It's a mad, mad, mad world.
 
 
-- 
Russel.
===
Dr Russel Winder  t: +44 20 7585 2200
41 Buckmaster Roadm: +44 7770 465 077
London SW11 1EN, UK   w: www.russel.org.uk



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Re: What kind of Editor, IDE you are using and which one do you like for D language?

2019-12-23 Thread Eugene Wissner via Digitalmars-d-learn

On Monday, 23 December 2019 at 15:51:17 UTC, bachmeier wrote:

On Monday, 23 December 2019 at 15:07:32 UTC, H. S. Teoh wrote:
On Sun, Dec 22, 2019 at 05:20:51PM +, BoQsc via 
Digitalmars-d-learn wrote:
There are lots of editors/IDE's that support D language: 
https://wiki.dlang.org/Editors


What kind of editor/IDE are you using and which one do you 
like the most?


Linux is my IDE. ;-)  And I use vim for editing code.


T


Not a Vim user, but wondering if there's Neovim support for D. 
If so, it needs to be added to that wiki table.


Yes, most plugins that support vim 8, support neovim as well and 
vice versa. I'm just using ale, it has built-in D support and 
just uses the compiler/dub. Still haven't time to test 
dcd/language server with something like coc.


Re: What kind of Editor, IDE you are using and which one do you like for D language?

2019-12-23 Thread TheGag96 via Digitalmars-d-learn

On Sunday, 22 December 2019 at 17:20:51 UTC, BoQsc wrote:
There are lots of editors/IDE's that support D language: 
https://wiki.dlang.org/Editors


What kind of editor/IDE are you using and which one do you like 
the most?


I've loved Sublime for years. I use it for everything, really. So 
pretty, so fast.


Re: What kind of Editor, IDE you are using and which one do you like for D language?

2019-12-23 Thread H. S. Teoh via Digitalmars-d-learn
On Mon, Dec 23, 2019 at 03:51:17PM +, bachmeier via Digitalmars-d-learn 
wrote:
> On Monday, 23 December 2019 at 15:07:32 UTC, H. S. Teoh wrote:
[...]
> > Linux is my IDE. ;-)  And I use vim for editing code.
[...]
> Not a Vim user, but wondering if there's Neovim support for D. If so,
> it needs to be added to that wiki table.

No idea, I use vanilla vim (not even with syntax highlighting -- I'm a
hardcore retro guy).


T

-- 
If the comments and the code disagree, it's likely that *both* are wrong. -- 
Christopher


Re: What kind of Editor, IDE you are using and which one do you like for D language?

2019-12-23 Thread bachmeier via Digitalmars-d-learn

On Monday, 23 December 2019 at 15:07:32 UTC, H. S. Teoh wrote:
On Sun, Dec 22, 2019 at 05:20:51PM +, BoQsc via 
Digitalmars-d-learn wrote:
There are lots of editors/IDE's that support D language: 
https://wiki.dlang.org/Editors


What kind of editor/IDE are you using and which one do you 
like the most?


Linux is my IDE. ;-)  And I use vim for editing code.


T


Not a Vim user, but wondering if there's Neovim support for D. If 
so, it needs to be added to that wiki table.


Re: What kind of Editor, IDE you are using and which one do you like for D language?

2019-12-23 Thread H. S. Teoh via Digitalmars-d-learn
On Sun, Dec 22, 2019 at 05:20:51PM +, BoQsc via Digitalmars-d-learn wrote:
> There are lots of editors/IDE's that support D language:
> https://wiki.dlang.org/Editors
> 
> What kind of editor/IDE are you using and which one do you like the most?

Linux is my IDE. ;-)  And I use vim for editing code.


T

-- 
If creativity is stifled by rigid discipline, then it is not true creativity.


Re: What kind of Editor, IDE you are using and which one do you like for D language?

2019-12-23 Thread Russel Winder via Digitalmars-d-learn
On Sun, 2019-12-22 at 17:20 +, BoQsc via Digitalmars-d-learn wrote:
> There are lots of editors/IDE's that support D language: 
> https://wiki.dlang.org/Editors
> 
> What kind of editor/IDE are you using and which one do you like 
> the most?

CLion with the DLanguage plugin. Very much a work in progress, very much a
nice IDE despite the lack of many features one might expect.

For editor, Emacs with the d-mode plugin.

-- 
Russel.
===
Dr Russel Winder  t: +44 20 7585 2200
41 Buckmaster Roadm: +44 7770 465 077
London SW11 1EN, UK   w: www.russel.org.uk



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Re: What kind of Editor, IDE you are using and which one do you like for D language?

2019-12-23 Thread JN via Digitalmars-d-learn

On Sunday, 22 December 2019 at 17:20:51 UTC, BoQsc wrote:
There are lots of editors/IDE's that support D language: 
https://wiki.dlang.org/Editors


What kind of editor/IDE are you using and which one do you like 
the most?


This list could use some cleaning up. Some of the IDEs haven't 
been maintained in a while, and most of them are some obscure 
editors with basic D syntax highlighting. There should be a link 
o n the main webpage to a list of recommended IDEs, and the 
common ones, the ones people are looking for - IntelliJ D Plugin, 
VisualD, VSCode.


Personally I use code-d. Haven't had much luck with the other D 
VSCode extension.


Re: What kind of Editor, IDE you are using and which one do you like for D language?

2019-12-22 Thread drug via Digitalmars-d-learn

On 12/23/19 10:16 AM, Soulsbane wrote:

On Sunday, 22 December 2019 at 17:20:51 UTC, BoQsc wrote:
There are lots of editors/IDE's that support D language: 
https://wiki.dlang.org/Editors


What kind of editor/IDE are you using and which one do you like the most?


VSCode with this extension:
https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=LaurentTreguier.vscode-dls 



I use this extension too


Re: What kind of Editor, IDE you are using and which one do you like for D language?

2019-12-22 Thread Aldo via Digitalmars-d-learn

On Sunday, 22 December 2019 at 17:20:51 UTC, BoQsc wrote:
There are lots of editors/IDE's that support D language: 
https://wiki.dlang.org/Editors


What kind of editor/IDE are you using and which one do you like 
the most?


VSCode with D extension


Re: What kind of Editor, IDE you are using and which one do you like for D language?

2019-12-22 Thread Soulsbane via Digitalmars-d-learn

On Sunday, 22 December 2019 at 17:20:51 UTC, BoQsc wrote:
There are lots of editors/IDE's that support D language: 
https://wiki.dlang.org/Editors


What kind of editor/IDE are you using and which one do you like 
the most?


VSCode with this extension:
https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=LaurentTreguier.vscode-dls


Re: What kind of Editor, IDE you are using and which one do you like for D language?

2019-12-22 Thread bachmeier via Digitalmars-d-learn

On Sunday, 22 December 2019 at 17:20:51 UTC, BoQsc wrote:
There are lots of editors/IDE's that support D language: 
https://wiki.dlang.org/Editors


What kind of editor/IDE are you using and which one do you like 
the most?


I use Geany, but I don't know that there's any good argument for 
that beyond it being my personal preference. A plain text editor 
has always been sufficient for me. That's actually one of the 
things I find attractive about D.


What kind of Editor, IDE you are using and which one do you like for D language?

2019-12-22 Thread BoQsc via Digitalmars-d-learn
There are lots of editors/IDE's that support D language: 
https://wiki.dlang.org/Editors


What kind of editor/IDE are you using and which one do you like 
the most?