Re: Old but interesting link as to the low adoption reason for D
When god (walter) create eden (dlang) the man (bo the biz developer) is very happy. Man thinks he is in heaven. Until man eat the forbidden apple(the ecosystem library, editor, tools). Now man understand he is in hell. Walter has created great language. But this language is not first class( first choice) on those platform. 1. Windows : .net , java etc 2. Ios : swift etc 3. Android : java kotlin, no d 4. Linux : c java, may be d , etc From what i understand( i am very sorry if i am wrong). D almost get customer, well almost. Bo was happy with the language but not ecosystem. For biz developer they expect very few bumps. This is normal. So what can d-community do : create subforum so that they know the bumps so they can avoid them. Ask what they are building (the general only), on what platform, what db, their background. Tell them what library you use, workaround, platform compiler odds tell them how you succeed. Provide them short cut : general build files, code management, idioms, etc. In short words : may be subforum for mentorship(can be free or paid). Separate from learn forum. It lowers heart attack , hipertension, anger, and disappointment. Today big companies like microsoft, apple create great languages for their platform AND partial supported language on other platform. Eg : swift for ios is official, swift on win is community. These language serve as honey because they give away for free to attracts us (the bee) so their product ecosystem (software or hardware) survive. D will never be rival for these language on that platform. For D to survive it must be the only champion on a platform or at least one of champion. My best guess is resource limited platform or /and linux. On those resource limited hardware platform, now, only 6 or 8 language but no clear champion ( for me, c and cpp not a champion, but i will use them if no alternative. ). I think betterc and nogc feature will make that happen. Lets hope so. But for now all d-community can do is serve that specific company need for success, for their thirst of money. And hope their feedback to the community when they want to leverage their requirement such as library used, running platform etc. Again i am sorry if i offend someone. Or i give you wrong info.
Re: Old but interesting link as to the low adoption reason for D
On Tuesday, 13 February 2018 at 11:45:00 UTC, Bo wrote: * Your guaranteed that this will have maintainers. Unlike alternative unofficial solutions. This is where you're wrong. Considering that D is an open-source language, nothing is guaranteed. Neither is there any guarantee who works on what and the same people who works on the "unofficial libraries" might as well be the __same__ people who works on the "official libraries"... That is actually the case in many of the __popular__ "unofficial" libraries, that they also contribute to D itself. * Guaranteed for a official stable API that will be similar across libraries. Cutting down on time for new developers to get familiar with the language. I partially agree with this, but again history shows that D's official API sometimes isn't as reliable as other unofficial equivalents. There's just a lot of restrictions in how the API is designed in ex. Phobos, which is why new modules sometimes just gets frozen for an unknown time and/or gets completely abandoned. That same issue can be said about some unofficial libraries, but in those cases it's usually just because they don't gather the attention they deserve and that is where I agree with your point. Perhaps just adding unofficial libraries as official libraries would be the best solution. * Having a load of different Independent libraries that "do the same but not exactly the same" is simply bad practice. Case and point: https://code.dlang.org/search?q=mysql No official library, some are not supported, some are duplicates with minor changes, no official API or standard... can go on a long time. My point above stands here too.
Re: Old but interesting link as to the low adoption reason for D
On Tuesday, 13 February 2018 at 01:46:02 UTC, Token wrote: D should recognize and embrace its nature as research platform/compiler enthusiasts playground favorite. I think this is a really good point, and one that D should be proud of. That is pretty much how I see D, and I really enjoy seeing how people 'play' with it. You get some really interesting outcomes, including this one I saw today: "abc".repeat(1000).joiner.writeln; https://forum.dlang.org/thread/nmewpndfcyvidcvxc...@forum.dlang.org Stuff like that comes from playing around. But.. I would add.. that D already can (and already does) solve a great number of real world programming problems, while falling short of solving many others. But modern day demands of programming languages are really complex, and getting more and more so by the day...as the world seeks to become more and more connected - and 'safer'. Personally, I think C++ has more challenges to contend with than D, in terms of becoming a modern day programming language.
Re: Old but interesting link as to the low adoption reason for D
On 13/02/2018 11:45 AM, Bo wrote: Community attitude is just as important as the language. As a language D may been gaining exposure but if you dislike new people coming here and pointing out major and minor issues, then that exposure is useless and will only reinforce a negative image for the language. No point in putting time feeding trolls, time is money after all. We like constructive reports. Most of the time however outsiders don't provide or willing to help with that. Some of us do attempt at the very least to just ignore the non-productive ones, since it isn't going to help anyone here.
Re: Old but interesting link as to the low adoption reason for D
On Tuesday, 13 February 2018 at 09:11:44 UTC, ketmar wrote: because Business Developers wants it that way. they are... well... Doing Business, and they wants someone to maintain all the libraries they are using. for free, of course. and what can be better than to offload this burden to language developers? ... really? This is the attitude here. almost each time we hear about "D should have XXX in standard library", it comes either from Business Developer, The reason why people prefer official supported library functionality is because: * Your guaranteed that this will have maintainers. Unlike alternative unofficial solutions. * Guaranteed for a official stable API that will be similar across libraries. Cutting down on time for new developers to get familiar with the language. * Having a load of different Independent libraries that "do the same but not exactly the same" is simply bad practice. Case and point: https://code.dlang.org/search?q=mysql No official library, some are not supported, some are duplicates with minor changes, no official API or standard... can go on a long time. If your idea is that people need to sift past the junk each time and hope that the library they pick is still supported in 5 years, your dead wrong. It does not work like that in any business environment. If you want a language to be adopted beyond hobbyist, you need to offer more then simply a language. Languages are a dime a dozen, well supported languages with a thriving eco-system that is a different market. People seem to have it in their head that its a good thing to not have a lot of officially supported libraries. Well, from a business perspective it is simply not feasible to adopt a language, when it only offers, quote: "10% improvement", and the rest of the eco-system relies on those same (unpaid) people. People who one day can simply drop all support on packages. or from Business Developer in Disguise. 'cause they always want someone to work for 'em for free. I have no problem paying as do a lot of people but do you hand over your money to projects where to attitude does not align with yours? I put money in several projects only to see no good come from it. I learn from my business mistakes. Do i need a language that keeps pushing more advanced features while introducing regressions all the time. Or do i prefer a stable language with official supported libraries that is easy to learn for new employees and has no baggage holding it back. Pick one ... and guess what gets a language adopted by us. I noticed after reading topics how there is a very clear group of people, with a real motivation to maintain the status quo. They have found their language and use any excuse to not gain a mass market audience. Community attitude is just as important as the language. As a language D may been gaining exposure but if you dislike new people coming here and pointing out major and minor issues, then that exposure is useless and will only reinforce a negative image for the language. No point in putting time feeding trolls, time is money after all. Zhù nǐ hǎo yùn! Wish you luck!
Re: Old but interesting link as to the low adoption reason for D
welkam wrote: On Monday, 12 February 2018 at 22:10:49 UTC, Bo wrote: * Lack of default OFFICIAL libraries like HTTP(s), database access, ... Why there should be one default OFFICIAL library for anything? because Business Developers wants it that way. they are... well... Doing Business, and they wants someone to maintain all the libraries they are using. for free, of course. and what can be better than to offload this burden to language developers? almost each time we hear about "D should have XXX in standard library", it comes either from Business Developer, or from Business Developer in Disguise. 'cause they always want someone to work for 'em for free.
Re: Old but interesting link as to the low adoption reason for D
On Monday, 12 February 2018 at 22:10:49 UTC, Bo wrote: * Lack of default OFFICIAL libraries like HTTP(s), database access, ... Why there should be one default OFFICIAL library for anything? Writing libraries is about choosing between different tradeoffs so no library satisfy all use cases. Also its ecosystem problem not language
Re: Old but interesting link as to the low adoption reason for D
On Tuesday, 13 February 2018 at 01:20:53 UTC, ketmar wrote: Bo wrote: This is part of the issues that D faces. Especially that last sentence... "bring a significant benefit". tbh, the only *real* problem with D that i see is people who thinks that D (and D devs) should do everything to please "business developers". 'cause, you know, there is no sense in language if it is not used by Holy Business. of course, i've +1 D should recognize and embrace its nature as research platform/compiler enthusiasts playground favorite.
Re: Old but interesting link as to the low adoption reason for D
Bo wrote: This is part of the issues that D faces. Especially that last sentence... "bring a significant benefit". tbh, the only *real* problem with D that i see is people who thinks that D (and D devs) should do everything to please "business developers". 'cause, you know, there is no sense in language if it is not used by Holy Business. of course, i've never seen the same attitude from the business side (there are some opposite examples, of course, but i'm talking about a big picture). i absolutely cannot see how pleasing yet another business dev will suddenly do alot of good for D. but i surely see how pleasing business devs will do bad. even trying to please reddit crowd already did alot of damage (@nogc).
Re: Old but interesting link as to the low adoption reason for D
On Monday, 12 February 2018 at 22:35:58 UTC, Ali wrote: why not try, for a change to show a positive attitude you must of have heard of something good about D that brought you here [...] I believe the untold D one true calling, is to be a full stack language, used for both high level and low level programming, offering all the programming facilities in one coherent package .. it will take time to get this right betterC fit well into this, in my opinion, by improving support for the low level parts of a program There is no train that D, is trying to catch, so take your time with D, continue using the other languages you find more productive or commercial, and give D 10% of your time [...] Again consider my suggestion, just give D 10% of your time .. and use it for something positive All good points! It seems to me the more D picks up speed, the more newcomers post here complaining about lack of motion. If only they knew...
Re: Old but interesting link as to the low adoption reason for D
On Monday, 12 February 2018 at 22:10:49 UTC, Bo wrote: On Monday, 12 February 2018 at 21:49:00 UTC, Craig Dillabaugh wrote: How to fix? It only gets fixed when the people above put forward a clear goal for the language. When that is lacking and people move at random like headless chickens with the end result? Bo why not try, for a change to show a positive attitude you must of have heard of something good about D that brought you here D, had a small community, so any contribution you make will be very visible and appreciated betterC is not a bad initiative, and i dont think we have the right to tell others where to put their effort, its too bossy, and you wouldnt accept it for yourself I believe the untold D one true calling, is to be a full stack language, used for both high level and low level programming, offering all the programming facilities in one coherent package .. it will take time to get this right betterC fit well into this, in my opinion, by improving support for the low level parts of a program There is no train that D, is trying to catch, so take your time with D, continue using the other languages you find more productive or commercial, and give D 10% of your time In that time, you can catch a bug, and issue a bug report Write a missing library Extend a library Those are simple suggestions that should be feasible to anyone Compiler hacking is not for everyone, and I know this can be the source of frustration for many developers, you cant change D, but dont let this consume you Again consider my suggestion, just give D 10% of your time .. and use it for something positive
Re: Old but interesting link as to the low adoption reason for D
On Monday, 12 February 2018 at 22:10:49 UTC, Bo wrote: On Monday, 12 February 2018 at 21:49:00 UTC, Craig Dillabaugh wrote: So what is your suggested course of action to correct this PR problem? I have provided several: * As stated the D its focusing the wrong group of developers * Too much old baggage and regressions because of it * Too much complexity from trying to focus on that specific group, who seem to see D as only 10% better and not worth the switch. * Clear issues in the library that people keep stumbling upon * Library issues * Lack of default OFFICIAL libraries like HTTP(s), database access, ... * Just a long list that is known for years. Very few with the resources are interested in actually fixing them and they prefer to focus upon BetterC. And discussions about DUB. What else can be said... And most of the points mentioned above require such a big change, its never going to happen. How to fix? It only gets fixed when the people above put forward a clear goal for the language. When that is lacking and people move at random like headless chickens with the end result? Well the issues with Dub are not unrelated to libraries. I'm not sure the answer is to have more official libraries, which just adds more stuff to the list of things that Walter and Andrei don't have time or interest in handling.
Re: Old but interesting link as to the low adoption reason for D
On Monday, 12 February 2018 at 21:49:00 UTC, Craig Dillabaugh wrote: So what is your suggested course of action to correct this PR problem? I have provided several: * As stated the D its focusing the wrong group of developers * Too much old baggage and regressions because of it * Too much complexity from trying to focus on that specific group, who seem to see D as only 10% better and not worth the switch. * Clear issues in the library that people keep stumbling upon * Library issues * Lack of default OFFICIAL libraries like HTTP(s), database access, ... * Just a long list that is known for years. Very few with the resources are interested in actually fixing them and they prefer to focus upon BetterC. And discussions about DUB. What else can be said... And most of the points mentioned above require such a big change, its never going to happen. How to fix? It only gets fixed when the people above put forward a clear goal for the language. When that is lacking and people move at random like headless chickens with the end result?
Re: Old but interesting link as to the low adoption reason for D
On Monday, 12 February 2018 at 21:42:25 UTC, Bo wrote: https://www.reddit.com/r/ProgrammingLanguages/comments/4etdnc/free_pascal_is_very_super_mega_ultra_underrated/ Ignore the part about Pascal and read the Post by matthieum: [...] Here are some of the comments: [...] This is part of the issues that D faces. Especially that last sentence... "bring a significant benefit". And some other user his responds: [...] Public image is very important ... Its not the first time stumbling on comments like this. So what is your suggested course of action to correct this PR problem?
Old but interesting link as to the low adoption reason for D
https://www.reddit.com/r/ProgrammingLanguages/comments/4etdnc/free_pascal_is_very_super_mega_ultra_underrated/ Ignore the part about Pascal and read the Post by matthieum: I have, for my company, been part of a group in charge of exploring the criteria for the inclusion of new languages in the company's set of supported languages. Here are some of the comments: Note that we already rejected D because we did not find it compelling enough. We are not looking for a 10% better language; given the cost of adding a language (as alluded above), which are much more linked to talent management than technological issues, a new language has to: either cover an area that is ill-covered today (we added Python in the last couple years for this, and Scala is being prototyped for BigData analysis) or bring a significant benefit it aims at displacing an existing language This is part of the issues that D faces. Especially that last sentence... "bring a significant benefit". And some other user his responds: D is now more of a research platform for Walter than anything else. Public image is very important ... Its not the first time stumbling on comments like this.
