Re: [Discuss] RMS in the news
On 9/19/2019 9:55 PM, Bill Horne wrote: > On 9/19/2019 5:03 PM, Jerry Feldman wrote: >> I was an emacs guy. Learned vi in about 1980, but when I worked for cadmus >> I learned gosling emacs. Used it for all my development until I switched >> to atom > No less an authority than Neal Stephenson wrote "I use emacs, which > might be thought of as a thermonuclear word processor."^1 > > Bill > > 1. https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/NealStephenson I have just been told that Neal Stephenson switched from emacs to a different word processor, and then to writing with a fountain pen. Since I find fountain pens very hard to use, does anyone know which software Mr. Stephenson used in between emacs and his pen? TIA. Bill -- Bill Horne 828-678-1548 ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@blu.org http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [Discuss] RMS in the news
On 9/19/19 4:54 PM, John Abreau wrote: I absolutely*hate* vim. Hear hear! I'm an old VI fan, like others have mentioned, because of the finger memory. I made the mistake of getting hooked on 'vile' which is very VI like without a lot of the fluffy interference that VIM provides. I've resigned myself to just living with vile or vim 'cause it's easier than refitting the systems I'm on. -- << MCT >> Michael C Tiernan. http://www.linkedin.com/in/mtiernan Non Impediti Ratione Cogatationis Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea. -Robert A. Heinlein ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@blu.org http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [Discuss] RMS in the news
On 9/19/2019 5:03 PM, Jerry Feldman wrote: > I was an emacs guy. Learned vi in about 1980, but when I worked for cadmus > I learned gosling emacs. Used it for all my development until I switched > to atom No less an authority than Neal Stephenson wrote "I use emacs, which might be thought of as a thermonuclear /word processor/."^1 Bill 1. https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/NealStephenson ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@blu.org http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [Discuss] RMS in the news
On Thu, Sep 19, 2019, at 17:03, Jerry Feldman wrote: > I was an emacs guy. Learned vi in about 1980, but when I worked for cadmus > I learned gosling emacs. Used it for all my development until I switched > to atom Remember the epithet "eight megabytes and constantly swapping"? I grew up with CUA applications (Alt+[letter] or F10 to activate menus, shift+[cursor movement] to select, ctrl+[cursor movement] to move more). Now my editor of choice is Visual Studio Code. I don't want to tell you how many megabytes it is. But it works great for me. :^) ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@blu.org http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [Discuss] RMS in the news
I was an emacs guy. Learned vi in about 1980, but when I worked for cadmus I learned gosling emacs. Used it for all my development until I switched to atom -- Jerry Feldman Boston Linux and Unix PGP key id: 537C5846 PGP Key fingerprint: 3D1B 8377 A3C0 A5F2 ECBB CA3B 4607 4319 537C 5846 On Thu, Sep 19, 2019, 4:55 PM John Abreau wrote: > Similarly for me with vi. I've been using vi since my first UNIX system in > 1983, a PDP-11/34a running BSD Unix 2.8. > > I absolutely *hate* vim. When I install a new Linux system, one of the > first add-ons I install is nvi, which is not a reimplementation like vim, > but rather is derived from the BSD code base that I grew up with. > > When I use vim for anything non-trivial, I almost always run into cases > where some functionality that my fingers know turns out to be missing, and > cases where some bizarre mode that my fingers don't know about gets invoked > inadvertently and I have no clue what it is or how to exit from it. > > When I use nvi, neither of those frustrating annoyances occur. > > > > > On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 4:23 PM Kent Borg wrote: > > > On 9/19/19 11:13 AM, Bill Horne wrote: > > > RMS has left us the FSF, the GNU organization, and Emacs (which I use > > > every day): we owe him a lot, both as a society and as a group, and I > > > hope we can keep in mind the immense weight of his achievements on the > > > balance of his life. > > > > I use emacs whenever I use my computer. In a sense I hate emacs, but it > > is what my fingers know. > > > > -kb > > > > ___ > > Discuss mailing list > > Discuss@blu.org > > http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss > > > > > -- > John Abreau / Executive Director, Boston Linux & Unix > Email: abre...@gmail.com / WWW http://www.abreau.net / PGP-Key-ID > 0x920063C6 > PGP-Key-Fingerprint A5AD 6BE1 FEFE 8E4F 5C23 C2D0 E885 E17C 9200 63C6 > ___ > Discuss mailing list > Discuss@blu.org > http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss > ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@blu.org http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [Discuss] RMS in the news
Similarly for me with vi. I've been using vi since my first UNIX system in 1983, a PDP-11/34a running BSD Unix 2.8. I absolutely *hate* vim. When I install a new Linux system, one of the first add-ons I install is nvi, which is not a reimplementation like vim, but rather is derived from the BSD code base that I grew up with. When I use vim for anything non-trivial, I almost always run into cases where some functionality that my fingers know turns out to be missing, and cases where some bizarre mode that my fingers don't know about gets invoked inadvertently and I have no clue what it is or how to exit from it. When I use nvi, neither of those frustrating annoyances occur. On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 4:23 PM Kent Borg wrote: > On 9/19/19 11:13 AM, Bill Horne wrote: > > RMS has left us the FSF, the GNU organization, and Emacs (which I use > > every day): we owe him a lot, both as a society and as a group, and I > > hope we can keep in mind the immense weight of his achievements on the > > balance of his life. > > I use emacs whenever I use my computer. In a sense I hate emacs, but it > is what my fingers know. > > -kb > > ___ > Discuss mailing list > Discuss@blu.org > http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss > -- John Abreau / Executive Director, Boston Linux & Unix Email: abre...@gmail.com / WWW http://www.abreau.net / PGP-Key-ID 0x920063C6 PGP-Key-Fingerprint A5AD 6BE1 FEFE 8E4F 5C23 C2D0 E885 E17C 9200 63C6 ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@blu.org http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [Discuss] RMS in the news
On 9/19/19 11:13 AM, Bill Horne wrote: RMS has left us the FSF, the GNU organization, and Emacs (which I use every day): we owe him a lot, both as a society and as a group, and I hope we can keep in mind the immense weight of his achievements on the balance of his life. I use emacs whenever I use my computer. In a sense I hate emacs, but it is what my fingers know. -kb ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@blu.org http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [Discuss] RMS in the news
On 9/18/2019 7:10 PM, John Abreau wrote: I first heard of RMS at the Boston Computer Society in 1985. I first met RMS in a room adjoining the workstations aisles in the AI lab at M.I.T. I was a High-school student who liked computers, and I had the good fortune to know another Amateur Radio operator who worked there. RMS was sitting at a small table with a terminal on it, dictating code into a tape recorder. The only other item in the room was a cot at the other end, and when we shook hands, he said "Happy hacking!" My friend later told me that RMS lived there, but I didn't quite believe it until years later, when I learned that RMS' apartment had been burned out and that he hadn't known about it for about a week. The next time I saw him, RMS was standing in the center strip of Memorial drive, holding a sign that read "Software should be free." I stopped and asked him why, but I didn't understand his explanation. The last time we met, I was swiping groceries at a supermarket in Cambridge. RMS came by and told me that I shouldn't use the self-service section, because I was putting people out of work. RMS has left us the FSF, the GNU organization, and Emacs (which I use every day): we owe him a lot, both as a society and as a group, and I hope we can keep in mind the immense weight of his achievements on the balance of his life. The problem with genius, it has been said, is that there's no way to go but down. Bill Horne ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@blu.org http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [Discuss] RMS in the news
On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 17:28:13 -0400 Kent Borg wrote: > I was once introduced to Stallman, but I had met him before, so I > reminded him of the party, and of the conversation we had had. > > He remembered me: "Oh, your *that* asshole." You win the Internet this week. :) -- Rich Pieri ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@blu.org http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [Discuss] RMS in the news
I first heard of RMS at the Boston Computer Society in 1985. My friend Glenn Hoffman gave me a BCS membership for Christmas in 1984, and we both attended the BCS/Mac meeting in January 1985, where Bernard Aboba handed out printed copies of the GNU Manifesto. I was duly impressed by his ideas. Many years later, after I founded the BCS Linux/UNIX SIG, we had a meeting where the speaker cancelled a few days before the meeting, and the alternate speaker we found at the last minute gave a talk on booting diskless Sun workstations from a Linux server, but his entire talk lasted about 10 minutes. RMS was in the audience, and during the Q after the talk, someone asked about running WordPerfect on Linux. RMS immediately responded to this by loudly asking, "Why bind yourselves in the chains of commercial software when you can be *FREE* !!!". Since we had another 90 minutes to fill, I turned the meeting over to him. His impromptu talk was lively and entertaining. A few months later I invited him to give a talk on software patents, to which he responded that he won't speak at any of our meetings until we rename our group to the BCS GNU/Linux SIG. Needless to say, I found this demand unreasonable and unacceptable, so the meeting never happened. On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 5:29 PM Kent Borg wrote: > On 9/18/19 1:53 AM, Rich Braun wrote: > > I’d love to hear more RMS stories. -rich > > Many, many years ago... > > I was once introduced to Stallman, but I had met him before, so I > reminded him of the party, and of the conversation we had had. > > He remembered me: "Oh, your *that* asshole." > > One of my proudest moments, I retell it every chance I get. Kinda feel > like now people will think I'm just heaping on because it is cool to dis > Stallman. No, he's been worth it a long time. > > I'm glad his vision of open source software is out there, he had a lot > of influence over where we are...and I am also very glad he didn't get > his way as to all his utopian details--because utopia is a perfect > place, and one man's perfection and absolute utopia is another man's hell. > > -kb > > ___ > Discuss mailing list > Discuss@blu.org > http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss > -- John Abreau / Executive Director, Boston Linux & Unix Email: abre...@gmail.com / WWW http://www.abreau.net / PGP-Key-ID 0x920063C6 PGP-Key-Fingerprint A5AD 6BE1 FEFE 8E4F 5C23 C2D0 E885 E17C 9200 63C6 ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@blu.org http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [Discuss] RMS in the news
It's interesting that the media yesterday was talking about the SNL comedian first, then eventually RMS. * * * When my brother was in high school he got a guest account at the AI lab. Something happened & that person couldn't sponsor guests anymore, so he got one sponsored by RMS, which led to a summer job working there. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@blu.org http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [Discuss] RMS in the news
On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 11:34:44 -0400 Dan Ritter wrote: > And then we do. > > RMS hasn't stopped in at least 30 years. > > Don't use Asperger's as an excuse for RMS acting like an asshole. > It's rude to all of the rest of us. This. I would like to add that I'm sick and tired of RMS' friends telling me I need to be tolerant of whatever his damage might be. I'm a difficult person to deal with. I know it. I'm not always good at handling it but I try and when someone tells me to knock it off I knock it off. RMS has somehow leveraged *not* knocking it off into a career. Now it's over. Instead of telling us that we should be tolerant of RMS who "thinks differently" from most of us, maybe those of you who call him friend should have been telling him to knock it off. If you had done this 30 years ago instead of making excuses for him and encouraging his assholery then maybe this whole situation could have been avoided. -- Rich Pieri ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@blu.org http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [Discuss] RMS in the news
On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 06:40:31AM -0400, Jack Bennett wrote: > I thought it was a mildly funny exchange at the time, but I hadn't > known of his reputation for singling out women in the audience and > making them uncomfortable. I wonder if he would have done the same > call out with a male professor in the same situation. I've interacted with RMS on a few occasions, and my impression has always been he would not hesitate to confront anyone, regardness of any of their identifying characteristics, for any reason he deemed suitable. I tend to think this is as it should be, except that his threshold for when it's OK to confront people needs some rather heavy-handed tuning. Despite that I mostly agree with his message, I would characterize 100% of those interactions as negative. He is coarse sand paper, and a taste I would prefer not to acquire, much like every other SJW type I'm aware of having encountered (since such awareness has generally been imparted via similar behavior). -- Derek D. Martinhttp://www.pizzashack.org/ GPG Key ID: 0xDFBEAD02 -=-=-=-=- This message is posted from an invalid address. Replying to it will result in undeliverable mail due to spam prevention. Sorry for the inconvenience. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@blu.org http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [Discuss] RMS in the news
MBR wrote: > I've known RMS since the 1970s when we were both regular attendees at the > MIT Folk Dance Club. His Aspergers has always made him a difficult person > to deal with. My dad has Asperger's. I have Asperger's. My son has Asperger's. Aspies find it difficult to interpret non-literal social cues. As a coping mechanism, all of us who are fundamentally reasonable people say things like "If I make you uncomfortable, please know that it's not my intention. Just tell me if I have, and I will stop it immediately." And then we do. RMS hasn't stopped in at least 30 years. Don't use Asperger's as an excuse for RMS acting like an asshole. It's rude to all of the rest of us. -dsr- ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@blu.org http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [Discuss] RMS in the news
I've known RMS since the 1970s when we were both regular attendees at the MIT Folk Dance Club. His Aspergers has always made him a difficult person to deal with. You say you "wonder if he would have done the same call out with a male professor in the same situation". I'm pretty sure that the answer is, "Yes." On 9/18/19 6:40 AM, Jack Bennett wrote: He came to give a public talk at Brown which was very well attended because he was quite well known among the CS, science, and engineering world. He gave a pretty typical rms talk - software freedom is important, open source is not good enough, closed systems are bad since you don't know what they are doing to your personal information. All the usual messages that he's been an uncompromising pitbull about for 35+ years. Almost offhandedly, he mentioned that people shouldn't procreate because having kids takes away from the time that you could otherwise be spending on REALLY important things, like working on free software and/or activism for software freedom. That was a new one that I hadn't heard. It kind of underscored his single-minded obsession to me. Here he is talking to a pretty diverse audience and he's saying that his "thing" is more important than literally any other important thing in any other person's life. Later on, one professor in the department, a member of my dissertation committee, was quietly leaving the talk a little bit early. rms noticed and called her out directly for leaving early so she retorted, "well, you know, I gotta pick up the KIDS". I thought it was a mildly funny exchange at the time, but I hadn't known of his reputation for singling out women in the audience and making them uncomfortable. I wonder if he would have done the same call out with a male professor in the same situation. On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 1:55 AM Rich Braun wrote: I have a fond memory of RMS crashing one of our BLU meetings to hammer at the point that our organization’s name included the word Linux and that we should amend it to include the word Gnu. With rumors of his death not quite entirely exaggerated—departure from FSF is tantamount to interment, it’s been his whole life—I’d love to hear more RMS stories. -rich ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@blu.org http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@blu.org http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [Discuss] RMS in the news
When I was an undergrad, roughly thirty years ago, I worked as one of RMS’s typists. I’m not comfortable describing the experience in detail on a public forum. On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 10:30 AM Brendan Kidwell wrote: > On Wed, Sep 18, 2019, at 06:40, Jack Bennett wrote: > > Later on, one professor in the department, a member of my dissertation > > committee, was quietly leaving the talk a little bit early. rms noticed > and > > called her out directly for leaving early so she retorted, "well, you > know, > > I gotta pick up the KIDS". > > It's funny to hear a story of that kind of disrespect now. > > Just last week before the current drama erupted, I was talking to a friend > who is a radio host in New York City. My friend said that he'd invited RMS > to give a keynote at some event, and RMS not only ignore the parameters of > the time slot -- he COVERED the clock. > > So, apparently RMS's talk is the most important thing in the world. He'll > end when he feels like it, and you may not leave when you're satisfied. > > I've given talks, myself, where I end with 80% of the audience I started > with and I literally didn't notice anyone left. > ___ > Discuss mailing list > Discuss@blu.org > http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss > ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@blu.org http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [Discuss] RMS in the news
On Wed, Sep 18, 2019, at 06:40, Jack Bennett wrote: > Later on, one professor in the department, a member of my dissertation > committee, was quietly leaving the talk a little bit early. rms noticed and > called her out directly for leaving early so she retorted, "well, you know, > I gotta pick up the KIDS". It's funny to hear a story of that kind of disrespect now. Just last week before the current drama erupted, I was talking to a friend who is a radio host in New York City. My friend said that he'd invited RMS to give a keynote at some event, and RMS not only ignore the parameters of the time slot -- he COVERED the clock. So, apparently RMS's talk is the most important thing in the world. He'll end when he feels like it, and you may not leave when you're satisfied. I've given talks, myself, where I end with 80% of the audience I started with and I literally didn't notice anyone left. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@blu.org http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [Discuss] RMS in the news
I'd like to see his original email that sparked the whole mess. From what little I've seen, it sounds like RMS condemned Epstein but defended Minsky, as Minsky is dead and thus cannot defend himself. The impression I got was that RMS had claimed Epstein forced the 17-year-old girl to come on to Minsky, but that Minsky was unaware that she was being coerced. Also, Gregory Benford, author and professor, claims to have witnessed the incident where she came on to Minsky. He says that Minsky turned her down, and that neither he nor Minsky had any reason to suspect that she was being coerced. If this is the case, then all the blame belongs with Epstein. On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 6:34 AM Jack Bennett wrote: > He came to give a public talk at Brown which was very well attended because > he was quite well known among the CS, science, and engineering world. > > He gave a pretty typical rms talk - software freedom is important, open > source is not good enough, closed systems are bad since you don't know what > they are doing to your personal information. All the usual messages that > he's been an uncompromising pitbull about for 35+ years. > Almost offhandedly, he mentioned that people shouldn't procreate because > having kids takes away from the time that you could otherwise be spending > on REALLY important things, like working on free software and/or activism > for software freedom. That was a new one that I hadn't heard. It kind of > underscored his single-minded obsession to me. Here he is talking to a > pretty diverse audience and he's saying that his "thing" is more important > than literally any other important thing in any other person's life. > > Later on, one professor in the department, a member of my dissertation > committee, was quietly leaving the talk a little bit early. rms noticed and > called her out directly for leaving early so she retorted, "well, you know, > I gotta pick up the KIDS". > > I thought it was a mildly funny exchange at the time, but I hadn't known of > his reputation for singling out women in the audience and making them > uncomfortable. I wonder if he would have done the same call out with a male > professor in the same situation. > > > On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 1:55 AM Rich Braun wrote: > > > I have a fond memory of RMS crashing one of our BLU meetings to hammer at > > the point that our organization’s name included the word Linux and that > we > > should amend it to include the word Gnu. With rumors of his death not > quite > > entirely exaggerated—departure from FSF is tantamount to interment, it’s > > been his whole life—I’d love to hear more RMS stories. -rich > > ___ > > Discuss mailing list > > Discuss@blu.org > > http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss > > > > > -- > Jack Bennett > ajbenn...@gmail.com > ___ > Discuss mailing list > Discuss@blu.org > http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss > -- John Abreau / Executive Director, Boston Linux & Unix Email: abre...@gmail.com / WWW http://www.abreau.net / PGP-Key-ID 0x920063C6 PGP-Key-Fingerprint A5AD 6BE1 FEFE 8E4F 5C23 C2D0 E885 E17C 9200 63C6 ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@blu.org http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [Discuss] RMS in the news
He came to give a public talk at Brown which was very well attended because he was quite well known among the CS, science, and engineering world. He gave a pretty typical rms talk - software freedom is important, open source is not good enough, closed systems are bad since you don't know what they are doing to your personal information. All the usual messages that he's been an uncompromising pitbull about for 35+ years. Almost offhandedly, he mentioned that people shouldn't procreate because having kids takes away from the time that you could otherwise be spending on REALLY important things, like working on free software and/or activism for software freedom. That was a new one that I hadn't heard. It kind of underscored his single-minded obsession to me. Here he is talking to a pretty diverse audience and he's saying that his "thing" is more important than literally any other important thing in any other person's life. Later on, one professor in the department, a member of my dissertation committee, was quietly leaving the talk a little bit early. rms noticed and called her out directly for leaving early so she retorted, "well, you know, I gotta pick up the KIDS". I thought it was a mildly funny exchange at the time, but I hadn't known of his reputation for singling out women in the audience and making them uncomfortable. I wonder if he would have done the same call out with a male professor in the same situation. On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 1:55 AM Rich Braun wrote: > I have a fond memory of RMS crashing one of our BLU meetings to hammer at > the point that our organization’s name included the word Linux and that we > should amend it to include the word Gnu. With rumors of his death not quite > entirely exaggerated—departure from FSF is tantamount to interment, it’s > been his whole life—I’d love to hear more RMS stories. -rich > ___ > Discuss mailing list > Discuss@blu.org > http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss > -- Jack Bennett ajbenn...@gmail.com ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@blu.org http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [Discuss] RMS in the news
Rich Braun wrote: > I have a fond memory of RMS crashing one of our BLU meetings to hammer at the > point that our organization’s name included the word Linux and that we should > amend it to include the word Gnu. With rumors of his death not quite entirely > exaggerated—departure from FSF is tantamount to interment, it’s been his > whole life—I’d love to hear more RMS stories. -rich Years before I met her, my wife-to-be went out on a date with RMS. She says he was rude to the waitstaff, was obnoxiously overbearing on every subject, and she feels that every allegation against him is believable. -dsr- ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@blu.org http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
[Discuss] RMS in the news
I have a fond memory of RMS crashing one of our BLU meetings to hammer at the point that our organization’s name included the word Linux and that we should amend it to include the word Gnu. With rumors of his death not quite entirely exaggerated—departure from FSF is tantamount to interment, it’s been his whole life—I’d love to hear more RMS stories. -rich ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@blu.org http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
