Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: x86_64 Windows build

2010-11-06 Thread Ian
On Sat, 2010-11-06 at 00:09 +, jonathon wrote:
 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1
 
 On 11/04/2010 10:32 PM, Ian wrote:
 
  Ask how many 15 year olds have drafted an essay on their cell phone.
 
 The primary demographic that writes 携帯小説 (keitai shousetsu) is
 believed to be females between the age of sixteen and twenty six.
 
 OTOH, the first work to be described as 携帯小説 was written by a thirty
 year old male.
 
 On the gripping hand, 携帯小説 isn't really relevant to migrating an
 office suite to a mobile device, except as pointer to what people have
 already done.

Exactly, and what is likely to happen is production of different form
factors as more clone manufacturers realise there are new markets
opening up for these technologies. I know at least one development
company producing a device that will plug into Wifi, large screen and
keyboard based on these technologies with a sub $50 target retail price.

With any new way of working, by definition, it is innovators and early
adopters that make it safe for the early and late majority to venture
into the water.

 Perhaps its only usefulness is in showing why LibO requires a Japanese
 UI on any mobile platform it is ported to.

Probably that too but first you have to decide the basic project is
worth doing and then find the resources to do it.

 jonathon


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Copyright Assignments the Document Foundation

2010-11-06 Thread Ian
On Fri, 2010-11-05 at 21:03 +, Caolán McNamara wrote:

 As far as I know, GNOME, KDE, Linux kernel and the GIMP along with
 masses of the little projects that makes everything work, typically get
 along fine without copyright assignment, though some have quirks like
 optional copyright assignment.

A basic principle is don't put in any barriers to take up unless they
are really, really, really essential.

That principle applies to software to end-users AND to developers AND to
other volunteers. Even getting access to contribute to the OOo web site
was a complicated pain and I gave up on it about 5 or 6 years ago. 

If we want community volunteers make it as easy as possible to
participate, if we want a lot of users of the software make it easy for
them to take it up - eg get it on as many future devices as the default
as possible.

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[tdf-discuss] Where is the right place for discussing new features?

2010-11-06 Thread Chynte


Hi guys,

as a user of OpenOffice since years, the change to LibreOffice looks 
like the chance to go forward with the project as a majority (and not 
one company) would like to go.
Since this also includes the danger that to many (not or only in rare 
cases useful) things are requested and done I would like to ask, where I 
should place and discuss my feature requests.


Thanks so far to go in that direction and good luck for LibreOffice

Chynte

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Copyright Assignments the Document Foundation

2010-11-06 Thread Roberto Resoli
2010/11/5, Caolán McNamara caol...@redhat.com:
 Wasn't subscribed to this list earlier, so I'll just hijack the first
 mail from the copyright thread to reply to to state my own opinion on
 copyright assignments.

 So, I'm not a huge fan of them

No one (no authors or developer, at least) can be.

 and believe they put contributors off.
 None of the various projects I've contributed to outside of
 OpenOffice.org had one, and had I been an individual developer, as
 opposed to an employee whose company approved a block assignment thing
 on our behalf, I almost certainly wouldn't have bothered to go through
 the process personally on OOos behalf either. They definitely put me
 off.

Ok, you had (eventually) to assign to a private Company in the past,
now the potential entity is a Foundation, representing all
contributors. It's not the same thing.

The crucial point is not JCA/CLA ecc. but what we expect from the Foundation
and what we want the governance of the Foundation should be in the future.
It's not a black box, we can form it in the way we want, but it should have a
motivation for existing,other than being a mere repository of code. I
don't feel the need
for a foundation that does nothing really useful.

 IMO, they take a lot of the fun out of it, and erect a barrier on two
 fronts, the first is the practical hassle of signing it, faxing it,
 sometimes even buying stamps and posting it, clicking through whatever.
 Ugh, its so often not worth the pain. The other barrier is the
 difference it makes to the perception of the body that wants it. Logging
 a patch, implementing features, etc to help out fellow developers and
 users just like me is one thing, but when presented with a copyright
 assignment then you're pushed out into a different world where there's
 some legal entity wants to own or co-own your work, and that's not a
 warm and cosy place.

It's not warm, it's not cosy, but in my opinion could be more useful.
It could represent me in a much more effective way. A legal entity can receive
money, can hire lawyers, can conduct  marketing campaigns, 

 Who exactly are they, what do they want to do with it, why do they need
 it. What are their motivations and can I trust them ?. If enough people
 of one company or another get onto the board will they sell out and
 relicense everything to some third party.

The governance and the rules of a strong foundation are up to us,
we can build as we want, because WE will build the Foundation.

  Do I have to read all their
 bylaws to see if that's not going to happen. Do I trust them.

 As far as I know, GNOME, KDE, Linux kernel and the GIMP along with
 masses of the little projects that makes everything work, typically get
 along fine without copyright assignment, though some have quirks like
 optional copyright assignment.

Apache, FSF on the other side. The kernel is simply too big because one single
entity could hope to dominate it, and for historical reasons is not
even thinkable
to govern it in a different manner.

I think LibO is too important to let things going in a random way.
Random meaning that
possibly some big contributors will dominate the project, being the only
having the adequate contribution power

 There is the advantage of being able to move up to a newer version of
 the LGPL of course, but large chunks of the code is locked in as LGPLv3
 anyway, so using a newer version of the LGPL is only possible if Oracle
 relicenses their existing contribution under that, the current policy of
 placing new work under a GPLv3+/LGPLv3+/MPLv1.1 should cover situations
 like that if they arise.

As I told other times, giving power to FSF or Mozilla instead of let
TDF taking it, is not the best thing to do.

bye,
rob

 C.


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Copyright Assignments the Document Foundation

2010-11-06 Thread Gianluca Turconi

Il 06/11/2010 14.27, Roberto Resoli ha scritto:

As I told other times, giving power to FSF or Mozilla instead of let
TDF taking it, is not the best thing to do.


Amen! :)

Here:

http://www.letturefantastiche.com/external/vertical_and_horizontal_foundations.odg

I've expressed in graphical form the difference between a vertical 
foundation and a horizontal foundation as alternatives.


The fundamental differences are self-evident, IMO.

And I'm, for the life of me, now and forever, more in favor of a 
vertical foundation: more powers, in good hands.


Regards,
--
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[tdf-discuss] where do i submit bugs?

2010-11-06 Thread Frank Esposito
Although I have been a OO user for many years, I never really cared about
the development of the project because I thought Sun would never listen to
just one person. Then when Oracle bought Sun, I gave up on the product
entirely. Now however, with the document foundation, I actually see a real
chance that input from someone like me can actually help the project.

So I would like to help. Where can I submit bugs for Libre Office??

Thanks
-Frank

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Re: [tdf-discuss] where do i submit bugs?

2010-11-06 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi Frank!

Am Samstag, den 06.11.2010, 09:37 -0500 schrieb Frank Esposito:
 Although I have been a OO user for many years, I never really cared about
 the development of the project because I thought Sun would never listen to
 just one person. Then when Oracle bought Sun, I gave up on the product
 entirely. Now however, with the document foundation, I actually see a real
 chance that input from someone like me can actually help the project.

Great!

 So I would like to help. Where can I submit bugs for Libre Office??

fun Well, I hope you talk about submitting bug reports - from my
personal point-of-view, we don't need more bugs at the moment. /fun

The information is documented in the wiki - maybe you should skip all
the content that seems weird to you:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/BugReport

Bye,
Christoph


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[tdf-discuss] Re: Where is the right place for discussing new features?

2010-11-06 Thread Marc Paré

Le 2010-11-06 09:23, Chynte a écrit :


Hi guys,

as a user of OpenOffice since years, the change to LibreOffice looks
like the chance to go forward with the project as a majority (and not
one company) would like to go.
Since this also includes the danger that to many (not or only in rare
cases useful) things are requested and done I would like to ask, where I
should place and discuss my feature requests.

Thanks so far to go in that direction and good luck for LibreOffice

Chynte



Hi Chynte

Depending on the feature, you may decide to post on the mailist that 
best suits your feature request for discussion. Here is the link for the 
different LibO mailist:


http://www.documentfoundation.org/contribution/

This list is also great if you would like to offer your feature request 
for general discussion. If you do, expect to have a lively discussion if 
the feature request if interesting.


Marc




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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: LibO Idea Handling

2010-11-06 Thread todd rme
On Fri, Nov 5, 2010 at 11:07 PM, Marc Paré m...@marcpare.com wrote:
 Le 2010-11-05 19:10, todd rme a écrit :

 From what I can see, the Ubuntu system is pretty similar in its

 capabilities to the KDE Forum system, although the KDE system seems to
 focus on idea while the Ubuntu (or ideatorrent, which it is based on)
 seems to be focused on problems and solutions.  However, ideatorrent
 does not appear to support user-specified tags.

 openSUSE also has openFATE, which is an idea management system:
 https://features.opensuse.org/  It has user-specified tags like the
 KDE system, but also has a tag cloud.  One big difference is that all
 ideas show their status for particular releases (unconfirmed,
 accepted, rejected, implemented, etc), so you can tell whether the
 idea is going to be make it into a particular release or not.

 -Todd


 I tried the openSUSE but for some reason it wouldn't load. Of the two Ubuntu
 and KDE, I prefer the KDE treatment of ideas as the focus is the idea,
 voting is on the idea only, member discussions are not voted on. I
 personally feel that if the idea is adopted by devs then they would want to
 read through the particular member discussions to get a better feel for the
 idea and convincing arguments for or not the impementation as well as
 suggested fixes left by members.

 I am not sure if there is a follow through with the idea. Let's say if
 adopted, does the KDE idea then report back on the status of completion of
 the idea?

 Marc

It is integrated into the forums, so the normal thread watch features
apply.  I will see if there is any way to get more robust
notifications, it is a good idea.

-Todd

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Copyright Assignments the Document Foundation

2010-11-06 Thread Robert Holtzman
On Sat, Nov 06, 2010 at 03:32:32PM +0100, Gianluca Turconi wrote:
 
 And I'm, for the life of me, now and forever, more in favor of a
 vertical foundation: more powers, in good hands.

That's fine as long as those hands remain benevolent. Not always a good
assumption. 

-- 
Bob Holtzman
Key ID: 8D549279
If you think you're getting free lunch,
 check the price of the beer

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: where do i submit bugs?

2010-11-06 Thread Frank Esposito
thanks chris and Gérard, and no i am not going to make new bugs :)

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Copyright Assignments the Document Foundation

2010-11-06 Thread Gianluca Turconi

Il 06/11/2010 17.50, Robert Holtzman ha scritto:

That's fine as long as those hands remain benevolent. Not always a good
assumption.


If you think so, no foundation is needed at all.
--
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Copyright Assignments the Document Foundation

2010-11-06 Thread Ian
On Sat, 2010-11-06 at 18:55 +0100, Gianluca Turconi wrote:
 Il 06/11/2010 17.50, Robert Holtzman ha scritto:
  That's fine as long as those hands remain benevolent. Not always a good
  assumption.
 
 If you think so, no foundation is needed at all.
 -- 
 Gianluca Turconi

To me, the main reason to have a Foundation is to have a central place
to gather and administer resources. Democratic or benevolent
dictatorship? That is an entirely different debate.

-- 
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Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications
A new approach to assessment for learning
www.theINGOTs.org - 01827 305940

You have received this email from the following company: The Learning
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Clear separation between frontend and backend?

2010-11-06 Thread Robert Derman

Lee Hyde wrote:

Greetings All,

I'm just a humble end user, and frankly I have little-to-no knowledge of
software development but I was wondering whether there is a clear
separation between frontend and backend with LibreOffice. Such that it
would make it easy to essentially 'slot-in' a replacement GUI.

As I say, I'm not familiar with software development in general much
less the specifics of OOo/LibO but it seems to the that one of the
better ways to encourage innovation is to make it easy for people to
'hack' on individual modules and in particular the GUI (which is in dire
need of modernisation and optimisation in my humble opinion). If
'hacking' a new GUI onto OOo/Lib (a'la IBM Lotus Symphony) at the moment
is non-trivial it will hinder innovation in the form of specialist forks
(which could be very useful for the mother project) and/or experimental
UI (which are clearly intended to showcase innovative ideas to see if
they could or should be merged into the mother project).
By specialist forks, does that mean like a special version for lawyers 
that does pleading forms, or a special version for screenwriters that 
has special enhancement for doing scripts, that sort of thing? 


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[tdf-discuss]

2010-11-06 Thread bastik . public . mailinglist
Hello to all,


 
This is my first message on this mailing list. It's my first on any mailing 
list.


 
Let me introduce myself (Skip this if you like). My name is Sebastian G., 
but you can call me bastik. I'm German if anyone cares. You can find me on 
the libreoffice IRC channel from time to time. I was a (long-term) user of 
OpenOffice before and may become one again if Oracle donates the name to 
LibreOffice. At work I got MS Office 2003 to use. Before I had to use MSO 
2007. I used Abiword for testing purpose too. So I think I have an 
overlook.


 
The decision to switch to LibreOffice is more or less political; based on 
ideals. Before the sunset I hadn't realized how many things were carried by 
it. Unfortunately those things seem to be left in the dark now.* No 
communication is a bad thing, the good thing is one can do a fork.


 
As end user the only thing I can to is giving feedback, reporting bugs and 
spreading LO.


 
Thank you for serving downloads through torrents. I will seed LOs' final 
releases. (I seeded OO before)


 
Recommendations for LibreOffice:


 
I'd like to ask for some changes. Most of them should be cosmetic.


 
Installer for Windows:

- Don't install the ldquo;Starterrdquo; by 
default. One thing I dislike from the time Iinstalled OpenOffice the very 
first time. It might be useful to   some, but most won't really need it. 
It's just something thatclutters the system and may slowdown the system 
start-up. On a  typical (windows) computer you'll find much stuff that 
starts with the system. IMO LibreOffice shouldn't do that by default. Who 
wants   (and needs) it can still enable it. You may can add a check-box to  
the installer to enable it quickly for those who mind to use the
advanced 
install option.
- 
Reduce the amount ofplug-ins that get installed by default. On some 
systems space israre. For those who knew what they don't need it's easy 
to deselect them, but for the average user it's too complicated. You may 
can create presets like ldquo;install all plug-insrdquo; and 
ldquo;install  essential plug-ins onlyrdquo; or something like that.  
  
- 
Don't add any browser   tool-bars or similar to the installer. Thank you.



 
Updates on Windows:

- Try to achieve an incrementally update process. 
Maybe directly like Firefox or as   small manual download. Windows has a 
bad 
management for third-party  software. There's no packet-manager. Even if 
just a few things   changed the whole installer needs to be downloaded. Not 
everywhere  high-speed internet is available; also some need to pay for the 
actual traffic. From 3.2 to 3.2.1 of OO for example.  This would
make 
LibreOffice better than OpenOffice. It might have a positiveeffect on 
your traffic too.


 
Versions:

- Create a lightversion. Writer, Calc and maybe 
Impress. OpenOffice is only an  office suite, but the average user may only 
need something to write a letter and the ability to create sheets; 
eventually something to create a presentation.
- 
Release a portable  version. This can be accomplished by a third-party. For 
example PortableApps.com. They release a portable version of OpenOffice 
too,but you have to use the full suite. If it's impossible to select the
components, the light version would be good for such a release.


 
GUI:

- Use small toolbar icons by default. I disliked 
the big toolbar icons and changed them.
- 
Think about disabling   the find toolbar by default. CTRL+F is much quicker. 
   
- 
Never use Ribbons. Iheard rumors about plans to use them in OpenOffice 
and hoped that it   would be possible to switch to the normal toolbar. Now 
I 
hope that   LibreOffice won't use ribbons at all.
- 
The right-click menushould open faster. (might be the font entry that 
slows it down)
- 
The languageselection for the spellchecker could be extended by a 
check-box   ldquo;show installed languages onlyrdquo; to speed up 
language 
selection.


 
Other:

- The extension manager should be able to 
disable 
extensions. Removing them through the   manager would be cool too.   
 
- 
Cache the results ofthe font preview. The 

Re: [tdf-discuss] Clear separation between frontend and backend?

2010-11-06 Thread Alexandro Colorado

On Sat, 06 Nov 2010 15:58:37 -0600, RGB ES rgb.m...@gmail.com wrote:


I was thinking on something similar. If it were possible to completely
separate core from UI it would be great. For example, someone who
knows Qt but nothing about GTK will be able to create a gui for MeeGo
without messing with core elements. Or someone else will be able to
build a gui for small monitors. Or another person will be able to
build something for power users in which you can only see style
stuff while just another person will contribute a kids  format
painter lovers interface.


To go on with this idea, I think it will be interesting to make the
core toolkit independent (i.e., pure C or C++, without GTK or any
stuff like that), so it will be possible to integrate LibO on any
platform just (yes, I know it is not easy, that's why I used
quotes... ;) ) by writing a proper UI.


A couple of years ago during an event in Spain (Desktop Summit) people  
from Nokia approach me as the only OOo representative in the event. They  
expressed their proposal on having OOo adopt Qt as their UI. The proposal  
represent some advantages. Certainly the development cost will be  
disipated since the toolkit would be mantained by a broader community.


I still got the guy's card and probably try to get them to come close to  
the LO dev team with more information about this.




2010/11/6 Lee Hyde anub...@gmail.com:

Greetings All,

I'm just a humble end user, and frankly I have little-to-no knowledge of
software development but I was wondering whether there is a clear
separation between frontend and backend with LibreOffice. Such that it
would make it easy to essentially 'slot-in' a replacement GUI.

As I say, I'm not familiar with software development in general much
less the specifics of OOo/LibO but it seems to the that one of the
better ways to encourage innovation is to make it easy for people to
'hack' on individual modules and in particular the GUI (which is in dire
need of modernisation and optimisation in my humble opinion). If
'hacking' a new GUI onto OOo/Lib (a'la IBM Lotus Symphony) at the moment
is non-trivial it will hinder innovation in the form of specialist forks
(which could be very useful for the mother project) and/or experimental
UI (which are clearly intended to showcase innovative ideas to see if
they could or should be merged into the mother project).

I just thought I'd bring this up in light of all the discussion
regarding UI reform. Of course I could be way off base here, and if I am
please do set me straight; if I need some edumacating regarding the
state of OOo/LibO do edumacatify me!

Regards,

Lee Hyde.

P.S. The quote in my signature was chosen at random, rather appropriate
though don't you think?

--
There is no patent. Could you patent the sun?

   -- Dr. Jonas Stalk, on being asked who owned the patent for his  
polio vaccine





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Alexandro Colorado
OOoES A.C - http://oooes.org
GPG: 68D072E6

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[tdf-discuss] Alternate find/replace

2010-11-06 Thread Craig A. Eddy
Potential problem:
When searching for a word, if the various choices are not correct to
find that particular word (for instance, if you have a word highlighted
and it just searches that word), then changing the choices does not
result in changing the behavior of the plug-in (for instance, changing
from search selection to search backwards).

Work Around:
Close the find/replace window and re-open it.

Craig
Tyche

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Clear separation between frontend and backend?

2010-11-06 Thread Jesús Corrius
On Sat, Nov 6, 2010 at 10:58 PM, RGB ES rgb.m...@gmail.com wrote:
 I was thinking on something similar. If it were possible to completely
 separate core from UI it would be great. For example, someone who
 knows Qt but nothing about GTK will be able to create a gui for MeeGo
 without messing with core elements. Or someone else will be able to
 build a gui for small monitors. Or another person will be able to
 build something for power users in which you can only see style
 stuff while just another person will contribute a kids  format
 painter lovers interface.
 To go on with this idea, I think it will be interesting to make the
 core toolkit independent (i.e., pure C or C++, without GTK or any
 stuff like that), so it will be possible to integrate LibO on any
 platform just (yes, I know it is not easy, that's why I used
 quotes... ;) ) by writing a proper UI.

LibO already has different frontends for GTK+, QT, native Win32 and
native Mac in the vcl module and they are independent as any change in
the code of one of those toolkits doesn't affect the others. It could
be done better for sure, but what you are mentioning is already
possible.

-- 
Jesús Corrius je...@softcatala.org
Document Foundation founding member
Skype: jcorrius | Twitter: @jcorrius

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Clear separation between frontend and backend?

2010-11-06 Thread Alexandro Colorado
- Original message -
 Hi Alexandro,

 On Sat, 2010-11-06 at 17:28 -0600, Alexandro Colorado wrote:
  represent some advantages. Certainly the development cost will be 
  disipated since the toolkit would be mantained by a broader community.

     Having finally rid ourselves of one corporate controlled, mandatory
 corporate copyright ownership aggregation problem area, I don't want to
 import another one, just lower down the stack.

     Hmm,

         Michael.

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  michael.me...@novell.com  , Pseudo Engineer, itinerant idiot

hi Michael 
I agree with that point however this toolkit is GPL and also has a dynamic of 
being adopted by other mobile platforms like meego. Just to weight the pros and 
con on the topic of separating the engine from the toolkit and adopting into 
other toolkits. Not sure how the other toolkits in android or iphone can 
provide. 
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Clear separation between frontend and backend?

2010-11-06 Thread Michael Meeks
Hi Alexandro,

On Sat, 2010-11-06 at 21:12 -0600, Alexandro Colorado wrote:
 I agree with that point however this toolkit is GPL

LGPL.

  and also has a dynamic of being adopted by other mobile
 platforms like meego.

Wait - I think I worked on that ;-)

 Just to weight the pros and con on the topic of separating
 the engine from the toolkit and adopting into other toolkits.

Really - I would leave the technical issues here to the dev team, we
are well aware of the options and stumbling blocks here.

The plan to keep, and improve the existing VCL abstraction for the next
year or so makes a lot of sense I believe.

ATB,

Michael.

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[tdf-discuss] Re: Where is the right place for discussing new features?

2010-11-06 Thread Wheatbix

The LibreOffice Drupal website development team is currently working on the
issue of feature requests, brainstorming and idea/proposal management.

If you are not aware, Drupal is a very powerful content management system
which will replace the basic pages of libreoffice.org in 3-6 months.  So far
we have developed the scope of work to include an idea generation and
popularity system, much like Ubuntu Brainstorm, which will manage the
smaller suggestions such as small feature requests.

I am in the process of putting together a scope for handling larger
proposals or 'blue sky' ideas.  Can I suggest that you have any ideas on the
ways we can manage this, or maybe some examples of projects which do this
very well could you please post the information back here or on the Drupal
Website Development wiki:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Website/Drupal/brainstorm

I don't agree with the view that these larger ideas are irrelevant at the
moment. Every open source project requires an inspirational goal to keep
people interested, whether achievable or not, such as Ubuntu's bug #1. I
hope we will have this system online soon so that people can start
suggesting these awe inspiring targets.
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