Re: [steering-discuss] contacting LibO and TDF domain holders
Hi Tom, Tom Davies wrote on 2010-12-27 17.37: I think it does need doing at some point if you are happy doing it then that is fantastic:) thanks a lot. :-) Since nobody objected, I will start writing to the domain owners after January 10th. If someone wants to vetoe, now's the time. :-) Florian -- Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
I will not support or use LibreOffice until it stops helping spread OOXML by enabling writing in this file format. There is absolutely no need to write in this proprietary format. To do so is contrary to the principle of using ODF and open source formats. See the following: http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=49t=2493p=169740#p169507 http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20101219121621828 Unless this changes I will strongly advocate in the support groups I participate the people stay with OpenOffice.org and not switch to LibreOffice. -- _ Larry I. Gusaas *Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada Website: http://larry-gusaas.com An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs. - Edgard Varese * -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
I support Larry's position. Carl Symons On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 9:27 AM, Larry Gusaas larry.gus...@gmail.com wrote: I will not support or use LibreOffice until it stops helping spread OOXML by enabling writing in this file format. There is absolutely no need to write in this proprietary format. To do so is contrary to the principle of using ODF and open source formats. See the following: http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=49t=2493p=169740#p169507 http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20101219121621828 Unless this changes I will strongly advocate in the support groups I participate the people stay with OpenOffice.org and not switch to LibreOffice. -- _ Larry I. Gusaas -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
On 30/12/10 17:27, Larry Gusaas wrote: I will not support or use LibreOffice until it stops helping spread OOXML by enabling writing in this file format. There is absolutely no need to write in this proprietary format. To do so is contrary to the principle of using ODF and open source formats. See the following: http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=49t=2493p=169740#p169507 http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20101219121621828 Unless this changes I will strongly advocate in the support groups I participate the people stay with OpenOffice.org and not switch to LibreOffice. OOXML will spread anyway because MS Office 2007 and 2010 use this format by default. Nothing you can do about it I'm afraid -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
openxml is a really bad thing for the community. It was a shame its approval by iso, specially if we consider there was no working implementation of it (not even msoffice support that standard!!) By implementing this format on LibO we are not helping to improve the (absurd myth of) interoperativity: we are only helping M$ to have an excuse (the only possible one: an independent implementation!) for the existence of those formats. To load those formats is OK if the file will be converted to ODF. To load those files in order save again on that absurd standard is a really wrong move. There is one thing that it is now more important than an opensource office suite, and that thing is a really open standard about file formats. We must protect ODF! Giving life support to ooxml is exactly on the opposite direction of that goal. Just my 2¢ 2010/12/30 Carl Symons carlsym...@gmail.com: I support Larry's position. Carl Symons On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 9:27 AM, Larry Gusaas larry.gus...@gmail.com wrote: I will not support or use LibreOffice until it stops helping spread OOXML by enabling writing in this file format. There is absolutely no need to write in this proprietary format. To do so is contrary to the principle of using ODF and open source formats. See the following: http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=49t=2493p=169740#p169507 http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20101219121621828 Unless this changes I will strongly advocate in the support groups I participate the people stay with OpenOffice.org and not switch to LibreOffice. -- _ Larry I. Gusaas -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity *** -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
2010/12/30 Gordon Burgess-Parker gbpli...@gmail.com: OOXML will spread anyway because MS Office 2007 and 2010 use this format by default. Nothing you can do about it I'm afraid That means nothing. MSOffice will be able to read the previous formats for a while, I think... -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 12/30/2010 12:27 PM, Larry Gusaas wrote: I will not support or use LibreOffice until it stops helping spread OOXML by enabling writing in this file format. There is absolutely no need to write in this proprietary format. To do so is contrary to the principle of using ODF and open source formats. On the other hand . . . isn't that doing exactly what MS does? Do two wrongs make a right? I thought the idea behind this particular office suite was to make any file accessible to the extent possible. That's why I use it. Regardless of what LibO does, MS is going to continue to use OOXML, and if the open source suites don't support it, then they are shooting themselves in the foot and essentially doing MS's bidding by ensuring that people who want to exchange files in that format have to buy MS products. - -- Steven Shelton Deputy Undersecretary for Made-up Titles -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk0c6CIACgkQO+AD2HqgRoAFmACeJfN63kpY0scYYf4nh9HI6M3d m18AoMuiy7TqhzLg8pxuMEch0eDp2nKD =Lj+L -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 12:19 PM, Gordon Burgess-Parker gbpli...@gmail.com wrote: On 30/12/10 17:27, Larry Gusaas wrote: I will not support or use LibreOffice until it stops helping spread OOXML by enabling writing in this file format. There is absolutely no need to write in this proprietary format. To do so is contrary to the principle of using ODF and open source formats. See the following: http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=49t=2493p=169740#p169507 http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20101219121621828 Unless this changes I will strongly advocate in the support groups I participate the people stay with OpenOffice.org and not switch to LibreOffice. OOXML will spread anyway because MS Office 2007 and 2010 use this format by default. Nothing you can do about it I'm afraid MS may create documents in OOXML by default. LibO can read them too. Larry Gusaas' original point was to avoid helping MS with this anti-open scheme. LibO should not help MS ...spread OOXML by enabling writing in this file format... In other words, make it so that LibO can _read_ OOXML documents, but not _write/save as_ this format. Enable LibO to _write_ in MS' proprietary .doc format, but not their fake open format. It is not open. The intent of this fake file format is to damage open software applications. It is similar to what they did with web standards, their own special Java, their own special C++. MS bribed their way into getting OOXML accepted as an ISO open standard. Truly open applications shouldn't go along with this scam. MS has suffered very little for their bad behavior. Even MS Office users (prior to 2007) have had trouble with this docx fraud. Read the links in Larry Gusaas' original message in this thread. This is what the open community is up against. We don't have to go along with it. By the way, there is nothing inherently wrong with what MS is doing here. The U.S. system rewards corporations that flirt with the boundaries of legality. The Standards Committee went along with this, and the U.S. hapless regulatory system can't/won't come to the rescue. It is up to the open community to deal with it. Don't make it possible for an open application to write in a file format that seeks to damage it. Carl Symons -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 12:14 PM, Steven Shelton ste...@sheltonlegal.net wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 12/30/2010 12:27 PM, Larry Gusaas wrote: I will not support or use LibreOffice until it stops helping spread OOXML by enabling writing in this file format. There is absolutely no need to write in this proprietary format. To do so is contrary to the principle of using ODF and open source formats. On the other hand . . . isn't that doing exactly what MS does? Do two wrongs make a right? No that is not what MS does. MS reads writes in proprietary formats. They do not support open source formats. LibO should read any format and have the ability to write in proprietary formats. It should not write in proprietary formats masquerading as open formats. LibO should not go along with MS' chicanery. LibO is not engaging in deceptive practices. I thought the idea behind this particular office suite was to make any file accessible to the extent possible. That's why I use it. Regardless of what LibO does, MS is going to continue to use OOXML, and if the open source suites don't support it, then they are shooting themselves in the foot and essentially doing MS's bidding by ensuring that people who want to exchange files in that format have to buy MS products. - -- Steven Shelton Any file format would still be accessible to read. If someone sends you a docx file, you will be able to open it. You can send a .doc (no x; no OOXML) file back to to them; they will be able to read it with their MS application. By sending a .docx file, the only thing accomplished is that MS has weakened open source. People can still exchange files in MS formats. The other user will still be able to use their MS applications. Not allowing docx _write_ ensures that MS nefarious scheme has been weakened. Other than that, no effect. If the LibO community doesn't take a stand on this issue, who else will? Simply put, MS is doing false advertising. Do you think that the FTC is gonna do anything about it? Not a prayer. MS has their cover with the Standards Committee decision. And how likely is it that some U.S. CongressCritter would allow the FTC to take action anyway? Carl Symons -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[tdf-discuss] Re: Do not support writing to OOXML format
On 2010/12/30 2:14 PM Steven Shelton wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 12/30/2010 12:27 PM, Larry Gusaas wrote: I will not support or use LibreOffice until it stops helping spread OOXML by enabling writing in this file format. There is absolutely no need to write in this proprietary format. To do so is contrary to the principle of using ODF and open source formats. On the other hand . . . isn't that doing exactly what MS does? Do two wrongs make a right? I thought the idea behind this particular office suite was to make any file accessible to the extent possible. That's why I use it. Regardless of what LibO does, MS is going to continue to use OOXML, and if the open source suites don't support it, then they are shooting themselves in the foot and essentially doing MS's bidding by ensuring that people who want to exchange files in that format have to buy MS products. You have it backward. If LibO writes in OOXML they are doing Microsofts bidiing. The world is slowly demanding open document formats. By supporting MS proprietary formats LibO is helping to perpetuate their hegemony. -- - Larry I. Gusaas Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada Website: http://larry-gusaas.com An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs. - Edgard Varese -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[tdf-discuss] starwars, random smileys etc
The functions mentioned in [1] no more work in OOo 3.3.0/LibO 3.3.0 ? [1] http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Easter_Eggs -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
- Original Message From: Carl Symons carlsym...@gmail.com To: discuss@documentfoundation.org Sent: Thu, December 30, 2010 3:47:30 PM Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 12:19 PM, Gordon Burgess-Parker gbpli...@gmail.com wrote: On 30/12/10 17:27, Larry Gusaas wrote: I will not support or use LibreOffice until it stops helping spread OOXML by enabling writing in this file format. There is absolutely no need to write in this proprietary format. To do so is contrary to the principle of using ODF and open source formats. See the following: http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=49t=2493p=169740#p169507 http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20101219121621828 ; Unless this changes I will strongly advocate in the support groups I participate the people stay with OpenOffice.org and not switch to LibreOffice. OOXML will spread anyway because MS Office 2007 and 2010 use this format by default. Nothing you can do about it I'm afraid MS may create documents in OOXML by default. LibO can read them too. Larry Gusaas' original point was to avoid helping MS with this anti-open scheme. LibO should not help MS ...spread OOXML by enabling writing in this file format... In other words, make it so that LibO can _read_ OOXML documents, but not _write/save as_ this format. Enable LibO to _write_ in MS' proprietary .doc format, but not their fake open format. It is not open. The intent of this fake file format is to damage open software applications. Agree. LibO should only read OOXML if anything at all. It is similar to what they did with web standards, their own special Java, their own special C++. MS bribed their way into getting OOXML accepted as an ISO open standard. Truly open applications shouldn't go along with this scam. MS has suffered very little for their bad behavior. Even MS Office users (prior to 2007) have had trouble with this docx fraud. Perhaps LibO and all other Open Source projects - and perhaps anyone supporting ODF for that matter - should treat OOXML like Microsoft treats ODF and other formats - as third party as possible. In other words, read support should be something that users must enable; Save support should not be possible - it must be converted to either an older MS format (e.g. doc, xls) or ODF. We need to force MS to support ODF - as others have pointed out ODF is quickly becoming the world standard at least at the government level - which means in a few years most organizations that support governments will need to support ODF too, and a few years after that organizations that support those organizations, and so forth. MS has lost the file format battle to ODF - it's just time before OOXML (especially) and their legacy formats are gone. The idea of LibO/etc reading OOXML pushes the issue - just like MS did to so many other formats to get people to convert to their formats. After all, what's good for the goose is good for the gander, no? Of course, all functionality should be dually advertised - with explanations as to why. Ben P.S. I am not advocating vengeance - just equal and fair play. P.P.S BTW, Office 2007 and later often get set to use the legacy formats by default as many organizations don't use OOXML if they have an organizational standard. It's only those that don't that continue using the defaults. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
- Original Message From: BRM bm_witn...@yahoo.com Even MS Office users (prior to 2007) have had trouble with this docx fraud. Perhaps LibO and all other Open Source projects - and perhaps anyone supporting ODF for that matter - should treat OOXML like Microsoft treats ODF and other formats - as third party as possible. In other words, read support should be something that users must enable; Save support should not be possible - it must be converted to either an older MS format (e.g. doc, xls) or ODF. We need to force MS to support ODF - as others have pointed out ODF is quickly becoming the world standard at least at the government level - which means in a few years most organizations that support governments will need to support ODF too, and a few years after that organizations that support those organizations, and so forth. MS has lost the file format battle to ODF - it's just time before OOXML (especially) and their legacy formats are gone. The idea of LibO/etc reading OOXML pushes the issue - just like MS did to so many other formats to get people to convert to their formats. After all, what's good for the goose is good for the gander, no? Of course, all functionality should be dually advertised - with explanations as to why. Oh, and one other point - why risk the legal liability? Even ISO OOXML is burdened by licensing issues; but then again - MS continues to not support ISO OOXML and instead use their own 'enhanced' version which probably has far more legal liabilities than ISO OOXML. And while MS Office has moved on to newer versions of OOXML, ISO OOXML has not been updated - I'm not even sure Alex Brown pays attention to it any more as he seems to just be nit-picking ODF at the moment (see his posts on the ODF Office Comments list). $0.02 USD Ben -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
On 12/30/2010 4:14 PM, BRM wrote: - Original Message snip We need to force MS to support ODF - as others have pointed out ODF is quickly becoming the world standard at least at the government level - which means in a few years most organizations that support governments will need to support ODF too, and a few years after that organizations that support those organizations, and so forth. MS has lost the file format battle to ODF - it's just time before OOXML (especially) and their legacy formats are gone. Unfortunately, MS now claims that it *does* support ODF, reading and writing files with the ODF extensions. But users attempting interoperability will soon discover that the MS implementation is not really compatible with other ODF implementations (most notably in spreadsheet formulas, but not just that). I think the MS plan here is to say that *they've* got the true standard implementation and everybody else is wrong. Since that (basically proprietary) version of ODF is now distributed as part of MS Office, it's just about everywhere, so they have the numbers on their side. That seems to leave everybody else once again playing catch-up with MS, which can then simply do as it pleases with the standard, being the 600-pound gorilla in the room. Interoperability issues will than be charged against the non-MS implementation, making it safer for organizations to stay with MS. Am I being unduly pessimistic here? The idea of LibO/etc reading OOXML pushes the issue - just like MS did to so many other formats to get people to convert to their formats. After all, what's good for the goose is good for the gander, no? Of course, all functionality should be dually advertised - with explanations as to why. Ben P.S. I am not advocating vengeance - just equal and fair play. P.P.S BTW, Office 2007 and later often get set to use the legacy formats by default as many organizations don't use OOXML if they have an organizational standard. It's only those that don't that continue using the defaults. It looks as if the general opinion here is that reading OOXML is a good idea, and writing it is not. I agree. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] starwars, random smileys etc
Hi Clio, Clio schrieb: The functions mentioned in [1] no more work in OOo 3.3.0/LibO 3.3.0 ? [1] http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Easter_Eggs Yes, in Calc the EEs STARCALCTEAM, ANTWORT, and GAME have been removed. TTT does not work any more as EE, but its opcode is retained, because it is useful in development of new functions. http://www.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=111231 In addition look at http://www.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=61685 Kind regards Regina -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
- Original Message From: Barbara Duprey b...@onr.com snip We need to force MS to support ODF - as others have pointed out ODF is quickly becoming the world standard at least at the government level - which means in a few years most organizations that support governments will need to support ODF too, and a few years after that organizations that support those organizations, and so forth. MS has lost the file format battle to ODF - it's just time before OOXML (especially) and their legacy formats are gone. Unfortunately, MS now claims that it *does* support ODF, reading and writing files with the ODF extensions. But users attempting interoperability will soon discover that the MS implementation is not really compatible with other ODF implementations (most notably in spreadsheet formulas, but not just that). I think the MS plan here is to say that *they've* got the true standard implementation and everybody else is wrong. Since that (basically proprietary) version of ODF is now distributed as part of MS Office, it's just about everywhere, so they have the numbers on their side. That seems to leave everybody else once again playing catch-up with MS, which can then simply do as it pleases with the standard, being the 600-pound gorilla in the room. Interoperability issues will than be charged against the non-MS implementation, making it safer for organizations to stay with MS. Am I being unduly pessimistic here? True, they do have a plug-in available to support ODF, but (last I checked) it is not part of the default install - you must install it separately, and it only supports Office 2007 and later, while they pushed OOXML support out to Office 2003 and possibly earlier versions too. However, they do not (again at least last I checked) let you save it via the normal means, e.g. Save/Save As dialog, and you cannot make it the default. They also follow only the 1.0 or may be the 1.1 version that made it through ISO refusing to do anything that is not in the ISO version, and then doing it in a rather broken manner. However, they are not the 600-pound gorilla in the ODF market given the dozens of implementations that more or less agree on how most things should be done. For instance, unlike all other implementations (again last I checked) MS wrote the value of the cell to the normal location for an ODS spreadsheet while writing the formula to a MS Office specific namespace - whereas everyone else write the formula to the cell location and not application specific namespaces. Effectively making MS Office ODF files non-interoperable with everyone else. I think they may also drop all other application specific data too; or may be they were kind enough to leave that intact, don't remember on that front. Conversely, I think there is likely enough interoperable software out there that it can be easily pointed out that MS has the broken implementation in such cases. Ben -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
On Thu Dec 30 2010 12:19:55 GMT-0800 (PST) Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote: OOXML will spread anyway because MS Office 2007 and 2010 use this format by default. Nothing you can do about it I'm afraid If M$ were to use the proper standard then I would have no problem with the OOXML usage. The problem comes in when M$ uses their version instead of the standard, (see http://www.adjb.net/post/Microsoft-Fails-the-Standards-Test.aspx ). Reading the OPs links and following links from the different post leads to far more interesting reading. It is funny that the Sun plugin for MSO had better support for ODF than the built-in support from M$. M$ has no interest in any open format standard so they do everything, including sabotage to do away with them. My 2cents. Andy -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 2:14 PM, BRM bm_witn...@yahoo.com wrote: several thread entries truncated I will not support or use LibreOffice until it stops helping spread OOXML by enabling writing in this file format. There is absolutely no need to write in this proprietary format. To do so is contrary to the principle of using ODF and open source formats. See the following: http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=49t=2493p=169740#p169507 http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20101219121621828 ; Unless this changes I will strongly advocate in the support groups I participate the people stay with OpenOffice.org and not switch to LibreOffice. One minor point here...OOo also supports writing to docx format. Perhaps LibO and all other Open Source projects - and perhaps anyone supporting ODF for that matter - should treat OOXML like Microsoft treats ODF and other formats - as third party as possible. In other words, read support should be something that users must enable; Save support should not be possible - it must be converted to either an older MS format (e.g. doc, xls) or ODF. We need to force MS to support ODF - as others have pointed out ODF is quickly becoming the world standard at least at the government level - which means in a few years most organizations that support governments will need to support ODF too, and a few years after that organizations that support those organizations, and so forth. MS has lost the file format battle to ODF - it's just time before OOXML (especially) and their legacy formats are gone. As another writer has pointed out, forcing MS in these ways is self-defeating. MS is not going to be forced in any direction. MS managers are going to fulfill their legal obligation...make money, enrich investors. LibO TDF do not have this requirement. Attempts to make things difficult for MS will really only make things difficult for those people who are required to use MS products. Many of those users don't have a choice. It is not appropriate to bruise users in order to teach MS a lesson...a lesson that they probably won't learn anyway. A key point here needs amplification. As a USA citizen (even in Washington State, up the road from Redmond) and an open source community participant, my view is probably warped...I think that MS has gone over the line of propriety many times with almost no adverse consequence. They operate as a de facto monopoly. The US regulatory agencies have done little to curb this anti-social behavior. To people who live in another countries, I can only imagine how this behavior appears. Surveys and anecdotes indicate that computer users in other countries than the USA report software to be a sovereignty issue. LibO has an international scope. Governments (Russia recently for example) are moving to LibO and other open source applications to remove themselves from the MS hegemony. Reading a range of formats and offering the ability to save in a range of formats is generous and supportive of the little person user. Going along with MS' efforts to destroy the open document format does not, in the end, support the little person user. MS has a near monopoly; they use it to the greatest extent possible. The ultimate result of unethical monopoly behavior is that the monopolist's products drive other products out. There is no valid reason for aiding MS' efforts to damage open source. The idea of LibO/etc reading OOXML pushes the issue - just like MS did to so many other formats to get people to convert to their formats. After all, what's good for the goose is good for the gander, no? No, just because MS does it doesn't make it right. They are using their market power unfairly. If LibreOffice focuses on serving users generously, then _reading_ OOXML documents fits. Writing or saving as OOXML only damages open source applications; there is no benefit to users (as long as documents can be saved in a legitimate way). OOXML is a wolf in sheep's clothing. Of course, all functionality should be dually advertised - with explanations as to why. Ben P.S. I am not advocating vengeance - just equal and fair play. P.P.S BTW, Office 2007 and later often get set to use the legacy formats by default as many organizations don't use OOXML if they have an organizational standard. It's only those that don't that continue using the defaults. When somebody buys a new version of Office, their default save format is docx. I've worked with less sophisticated users who get a new computer and new Office to work from home. They can't understand why their teachers (running earlier Office versions) can't open their file. This is a bad deal that MS has foisted on people. It is not necessary to make them pay for this bad behavior...it wouldn't make much difference. But we shouldn't be accomplices to their crime. Carl -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
I have to use office2007 at work and I watch hundreds of core users (college students) struggle with my formatting requirements for homework assignments. Most of these are using the company-supplied computers, with office 2007, most of the time. Word allows reading and writing odf format. It tends to mess up fancy document formatting, but the most complicated document formatting these users do is adding a page number. The IT department set it up, so I don't know if the Plugin took manual set-up. If we could set up docx to save automatically to doc, that might be cool for us but don't you think that would just annoy core users of ms office? Most core users of any program just want to use it to perform some task. They don't care about these format battles. If we could make a couple of award-winning big-budget movies where format license was the pivotal plot device, we might have hope of including the core user in the controversy. I am not sure that deliberate exclusion coming from the let's get them before they get us vibe in this thread is going to work how we want. Once all European governments and half of Aisia go to open formats, maybe we just stop accepting ms formats at all. This is how ms office got their crushing grip on general business formatting, isn't it. Before Windows, the average university or (US) government core user was using WordPerfect on DOS. Over the next 5-10 years we will probably see a sea-change to *nix, cloud and open formats, but the focus of LO may have to shift to a SaaS delivery model to meet the challenges of that change. If the documents are shared primarily over the network through a browser, it will be very simple for those service providers to specify odf if we make the reasons clear enough, or if we are the providers of those services. Wolf Halton -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
On 12/30/10 08:09 PM, Carl Symons wrote: http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=49t=2493p=169740#p169507 http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20101219121621828 ; Unless this changes I will strongly advocate in the support groups I participate the people stay with OpenOffice.org and not switch to LibreOffice. One minor point here...OOo also supports writing to docx format. I checked my OOo, dev m95 (3.4), it doesn't support save as docx and 3.3 rc8 (3.3 m18) also doesn't support docx in save as. What version are you using that supports docx? Also, for what it's worth, saving as a docx to me is a bad idea. I've imported doc files extensively in the past, straightened them out to view properly, saved as an odt, then saved as a doc again only to find some different formatting doesn't come out correctly with the doc. I suspect docx will be worse. I have got many people in the past to convert to OOo. I will now promote them to Libreoffice. I cannot move over myself as I use Solaris 11 Express (similar to Opensolaris) which there is no port. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Do not support writing to OOXML format
HI Em 30-12-2010 18:41, Larry Gusaas escreveu: On 2010/12/30 2:19 PM Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote: OOXML will spread anyway because MS Office 2007 and 2010 use this format by default. Nothing you can do about it I'm afraid Yes you can do something about it. Don't enable writing in that format. Use PDF's for communicating. If a MS user needs to be able to modify a document, use .doc format. There is no need to use .docx format. MS Office 2008 and 2011 can still read .doc files. The thing is, *you can* prevent LibreOffice/OOo from writing in proprietary format. This requires a configuration in one of the xcu/xcs config files. Happy new year -- Olivier Hallot Founder, Steering Commitee Member - The Document Foundation Voicing the enterprise Translation Leader for Brazilian Portuguese -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Do not support writing to OOXML format
Thank you Olivier for jumping in on this as one of the TDF founders. And thank you for helping to make LibreOffice happen. More below... On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 6:16 PM, Olivier Hallot olivier.hal...@documentfoundation.org wrote: HI Em 30-12-2010 18:41, Larry Gusaas escreveu: On 2010/12/30 2:19 PM Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote: OOXML will spread anyway because MS Office 2007 and 2010 use this format by default. Nothing you can do about it I'm afraid Yes you can do something about it. Don't enable writing in that format. Use PDF's for communicating. If a MS user needs to be able to modify a document, use .doc format. There is no need to use .docx format. MS Office 2008 and 2011 can still read .doc files. The thing is, *you can* prevent LibreOffice/OOo from writing in proprietary format. This requires a configuration in one of the xcu/xcs config files. Happy new year -- Olivier Hallot If it is this easy to disable selected formats, I ask that the TDF Steering Committee take the suggestions in this conversation thread into consideration. Larry Gusaas has cited some sources (in the thread starter) that suggest that Microsoft is again (ab)using their near-monopoly market position to subvert openness. While there's no need for the TDF to police or punish Microsoft's behavior, there are strong reasons for the LibreOffice community to stand for and protect the open nature of LibO applications and their file formats. There is no reason to support writing/saving as docx/OOXML except to go along with Microsoft's anti-open fraud and deception. Carl Symons -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[tdf-discuss] Re: Do not support writing to OOXML format
On 2010/12/30 7:09 PM Carl Symons wrote: One minor point here...OOo also supports writing to docx format. Official OpenOffice.org builds do not support writing to the .docx format. The Go-OO derivative does write to the .docx format (probably because of the agreement between Microsoft and Novell). Go-OO is the version used on many Linux distros. There are many reports on OOo forums of problems caused by the poorly tested additions included in Go-OO. LibreOffice is based on Go-OO. -- _ Larry I. Gusaas *Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada Website: http://larry-gusaas.com An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs. - Edgard Varese * -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Do not support writing to OOXML format
I have come into this thread a little late but i may just have a slightly clearer view of things. In the world of office suites, MS almost has a monopoly. They have the power to to make their formats the standard. IF LibreOffice pulls .docx support then people WONT congratulate us on the strength of our morals. They will instead see an 'office suite' that doesn't support the formats they have and will go Well thats USELESS and delete it from their system and install an office suite which DOES have support, which in this case is MSO thus strengthening MS position in the market. This is the opposite of what we want to happen with LibreOffice. The validity of the standard and the fact that its a proprietary format aside, if LibreOffice doesn't play ball, the we get shoved of the court. As a side note, I find it slightly hypocritical that the original poster advocates going back to OO.o, which is now controlled by Oracle who are in a bigger campaign of open-source destruction than MS is at the moment, because we happen to support a format that is used by 80+% of all 'Office Suite' users. Its kinda like going to the gStreamer forums and saying I'm going to iTunes because you support WMA. On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 5:26 PM, Larry Gusaas larry.gus...@gmail.comwrote: On 2010/12/30 7:09 PM Carl Symons wrote: One minor point here...OOo also supports writing to docx format. Official OpenOffice.org builds do not support writing to the .docx format. The Go-OO derivative does write to the .docx format (probably because of the agreement between Microsoft and Novell). Go-OO is the version used on many Linux distros. There are many reports on OOo forums of problems caused by the poorly tested additions included in Go-OO. LibreOffice is based on Go-OO. -- _ Larry I. Gusaas *Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada Website: http://larry-gusaas.com An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs. - Edgard Varese * -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.orgdiscuss%2bh...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity *** -- Sean White, I've Seen the Cow Level -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Do not support writing to OOXML format
Maybe saving in ...x formats should be disabled by default so that the user must make a conscious decision to allow them. But to some extent this discussion misses two key points: 1) Application quality The default de-facto format will inevitably follow the dominant application. It's probably impossible to be a frequent OOO/LibO user without meeting serious bugs and having ones own list of things that need to be fixed. I certainly have mine. My professional experience with MSO was quite different, ie almost no troubling bugs. Apart from any other consideration, for pretty well any commercial organisation, the resulting support/user hassle cost of adopting OOO/LibO far exceeds the cost of adopting MSO, even from scratch for a new organisation. To illustrate the problem, you just need to inspect the OOO P2 issues which are regularly postponed release after release. Regretfully, for this reason it is very difficult to claim that OOO/LibO is a professional level application. When it is, many more users will flock to it and the format battle is much more likely to resolve itself in favour of ODF. 2) Chrome OS In 2011 people will be buying notebooks without hard disks running Chrome OS, certainly cheaper including much lower support costs, probably faster too, and these users will be able to work cooperatively with their data entirely in the cloud. Perhaps 90% of users will potentially no longer need MSO, OOO, LibO or any of the associated formats. It's hard to say whether this will be game changing or just very important, it will depend on how well it works in practice, but given the self-evident quality and astonishing rate of development of Google's applications, my money is on game changing. Mike Hall On 31/12/2010 05:21, Carl Symons wrote: Thank you Olivier for jumping in on this as one of the TDF founders. And thank you for helping to make LibreOffice happen. More below... On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 6:16 PM, Olivier Hallot olivier.hal...@documentfoundation.org wrote: HI Em 30-12-2010 18:41, Larry Gusaas escreveu: On 2010/12/30 2:19 PM Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote: OOXML will spread anyway because MS Office 2007 and 2010 use this format by default. Nothing you can do about it I'm afraid Yes you can do something about it. Don't enable writing in that format. Use PDF's for communicating. If a MS user needs to be able to modify a document, use .doc format. There is no need to use .docx format. MS Office 2008 and 2011 can still read .doc files. The thing is, *you can* prevent LibreOffice/OOo from writing in proprietary format. This requires a configuration in one of the xcu/xcs config files. Happy new year -- Olivier Hallot If it is this easy to disable selected formats, I ask that the TDF Steering Committee take the suggestions in this conversation thread into consideration. Larry Gusaas has cited some sources (in the thread starter) that suggest that Microsoft is again (ab)using their near-monopoly market position to subvert openness. While there's no need for the TDF to police or punish Microsoft's behavior, there are strong reasons for the LibreOffice community to stand for and protect the open nature of LibO applications and their file formats. There is no reason to support writing/saving as docx/OOXML except to go along with Microsoft's anti-open fraud and deception. Carl Symons -- Mike Hall www.onepoyle.net -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[tdf-discuss] Re: Do not support writing to OOXML format
On 2010/12/31 1:02 AM Sean White wrote: IF LibreOffice pulls .docx support then people WONT congratulate us on the strength of our morals. Nobody suggest not being able to read .docx files, only that LibO should no be able to write to that format. They will instead see an 'office suite' that doesn't support the formats they have and will go Well thats USELESS and delete it from their system and install an office suite which DOES have support, MS Office still can read and write to .doc format. LibO ability to write to .doc format if necessary is sufficient for interchange with MS office users we happen to support a format that is used by 80+% of all 'Office Suite' users. Older versions of MS office do not use the new formats. Many users of MS Office 2007 and newer still save in the older formats. Nowhere near 80+% of MS Office users the new file formats. Its kinda like going to the gStreamer forums and saying I'm going to iTunes because you support WMA. Totally irrelevant comment. What is gStreamer? Oh, wait a minute, it is probably a Linuts program. Larry -- _ Larry I. Gusaas Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada Website: http://larry-gusaas.com An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs. - Edgard Varese -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
