[tdf-discuss] Re: New "LibreOffice Reader" Eliminates Need for "PDF Reader"

2011-07-03 Thread Russell Butler 

On 04/07/11 07:06, Ian Lynch wrote:

On 3 July 2011 21:38, Robert Derman  wrote:


Ian Lynch wrote:


On 2 July 2011 23:22, Robert Derman  wrote



Keith Curtis wrote:



The problem with building a reader is that it would be about the same
size
as LibreOffice. OpenDocument is very different from PDF. For those who
can't
install LO, they probably can't install the reader either



Perhaps separating the modules of LO so that users could download and
install only the parts that they actually want, for instance I NEVER use
spreadsheets and probably never would use any part of the LO package
other
than Writer.  There is a small chance that I might use the database, but
the
rest of it never.



The snag as I understand it is that there is a lot of code shared between
components so separating them is not easy and would not result in as big a
saving in "size" as one would think. I use Writer but I tend to use Google
spreadsheets as I need to share them collaboratively. I use Inkscape
rather
than Draw simply because I like it better. I doubt I would ever use Base.
Perhaps Impress on occasions. But I think Impress and Draw share a lot of
code so its probably not going to save much having one without the other.

I believe there is quite a bit of redundant code in OOo so would a better
starting point not be to get rid of as much of this as possible?



As I understand this is being done by the LO developers and much more
effectively than OOo ever did.  As I understand doing a general clean-up of
the code was never a priority with Sun management, although it probably
should have been.



Good to know.

What I am wondering is if there aren't a lot of users like me who only ever

use Writer and are not likely to ever use any of the other modules.



Probably.



  In any case, I think that it might be a good idea to do a survey of LO
users and find out how many only use one of the modules, and if so which
one.  If such a survey shows that a substantial number say 40% of users only
use Writer, then it might be a good idea to work to be able to offer a
Writer only package.  I know that if a Writer only package were available
from LibreOffice, that is what I would download and use.



what if a Writer only package only save 30% of the code size, was quite a
lot of work to achieve and then you were left with two sets of code to
maintain? Would it be worth it? Don't get me wrong, I'd like to see
independent components. I'd also like to see at least Writer on Smartphones
and Tablets and I'd like to see a good web implementation of Writer. All
about the resources and priorities in the end.

To produce such a package I expect,  would mean stripping out ALL code not

used specifically by Writer.




Sorry to come in late on this thread, but there is an android ODF 
reader: 
http://www.androidzoom.com/android_applications/productivity/odf-viewer_mnhl.html


It seems to have rather come to a halt, but there may be code there 
which could be massaged into a reader (?)


I'm in no way a developer, and have little experience with the reader, 
other than finding it can't open encrypted files. I suggested this to 
the developer, but he indicated he wasn't actually working on the 
project currently.


---

Russell




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Re: [tdf-discuss] New "LibreOffice Reader" Eliminates Need for "PDF Reader"

2011-07-03 Thread Ian Lynch 
On 3 July 2011 21:38, Robert Derman  wrote:

> Ian Lynch wrote:
>
>> On 2 July 2011 23:22, Robert Derman  wrote
>>
>>
>>> Keith Curtis wrote:
>>>
>>>
 The problem with building a reader is that it would be about the same
 size
 as LibreOffice. OpenDocument is very different from PDF. For those who
 can't
 install LO, they probably can't install the reader either


>>> Perhaps separating the modules of LO so that users could download and
>>> install only the parts that they actually want, for instance I NEVER use
>>> spreadsheets and probably never would use any part of the LO package
>>> other
>>> than Writer.  There is a small chance that I might use the database, but
>>> the
>>> rest of it never.
>>>
>>
>> The snag as I understand it is that there is a lot of code shared between
>> components so separating them is not easy and would not result in as big a
>> saving in "size" as one would think. I use Writer but I tend to use Google
>> spreadsheets as I need to share them collaboratively. I use Inkscape
>> rather
>> than Draw simply because I like it better. I doubt I would ever use Base.
>> Perhaps Impress on occasions. But I think Impress and Draw share a lot of
>> code so its probably not going to save much having one without the other.
>>
>> I believe there is quite a bit of redundant code in OOo so would a better
>> starting point not be to get rid of as much of this as possible?
>>
>>
> As I understand this is being done by the LO developers and much more
> effectively than OOo ever did.  As I understand doing a general clean-up of
> the code was never a priority with Sun management, although it probably
> should have been.
>

Good to know.

What I am wondering is if there aren't a lot of users like me who only ever
> use Writer and are not likely to ever use any of the other modules.


Probably.


>  In any case, I think that it might be a good idea to do a survey of LO
> users and find out how many only use one of the modules, and if so which
> one.  If such a survey shows that a substantial number say 40% of users only
> use Writer, then it might be a good idea to work to be able to offer a
> Writer only package.  I know that if a Writer only package were available
> from LibreOffice, that is what I would download and use.


what if a Writer only package only save 30% of the code size, was quite a
lot of work to achieve and then you were left with two sets of code to
maintain? Would it be worth it? Don't get me wrong, I'd like to see
independent components. I'd also like to see at least Writer on Smartphones
and Tablets and I'd like to see a good web implementation of Writer. All
about the resources and priorities in the end.

To produce such a package I expect,  would mean stripping out ALL code not
> used specifically by Writer.


Depends how modular things are. That I don't know. My impression is that OOo
was designed in a megalithic way to make integration of the apps more
seamless.


>  As an example, back when I was using Microsoft, I never used office, I
> only purchased Word, I never had or wanted Excel, PowerPoint, or any of the
> other programs that make up the Office package.  What I bought and
> recommended to others was a package called Home Essentials.  As I remember
> it had the Encarta encyclopedia, MS Money, MS Works and other stuff, but the
> important thing was that  it included a full copy of Word at a lower price
> than you would otherwise pay for Word alone.  Whatever, anyway the point I
> am making is that I was only interested in Word, (this was all before OOo
> was available) and I suspect that I am not all that unusual as far as end
> users are concerned.
>

I think their are fundamental design differences between MS Office and OOo
that make this less than straightforward to do.

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Navigation Toolbar Help

2011-07-03 Thread André Schnabel 
Hi Rainer,

Am 28.06.2011 06:46, schrieb Rainer Bielefeld:
> Hi,
>
> die anyone ever see a Help for the new Navigation Bar?
> 


there is some help for it:
http://help.libreoffice.org/Writer/Navigation

But it seems not to cover the behaviour described in the bug report.
(btw. I can not reproduce the bug report here, using LibO 3.3 or my own
build from current master.)

regards,

André

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Re: [tdf-discuss] New "LibreOffice Reader" Eliminates Need for "PDF Reader"

2011-07-03 Thread Robert Derman 

Ian Lynch wrote:

On 2 July 2011 23:22, Robert Derman  wrote:

  

Keith Curtis wrote:



The problem with building a reader is that it would be about the same size
as LibreOffice. OpenDocument is very different from PDF. For those who
can't
install LO, they probably can't install the reader either.


  

Perhaps separating the modules of LO so that users could download and
install only the parts that they actually want, for instance I NEVER use
spreadsheets and probably never would use any part of the LO package other
than Writer.  There is a small chance that I might use the database, but the
rest of it never.




The snag as I understand it is that there is a lot of code shared between
components so separating them is not easy and would not result in as big a
saving in "size" as one would think. I use Writer but I tend to use Google
spreadsheets as I need to share them collaboratively. I use Inkscape rather
than Draw simply because I like it better. I doubt I would ever use Base.
Perhaps Impress on occasions. But I think Impress and Draw share a lot of
code so its probably not going to save much having one without the other.

I believe there is quite a bit of redundant code in OOo so would a better
starting point not be to get rid of as much of this as possible?
  
As I understand this is being done by the LO developers and much more 
effectively than OOo ever did.  As I understand doing a general clean-up 
of the code was never a priority with Sun management, although it 
probably should have been. 




What I am wondering is if there aren't a lot of users like me who only 
ever use Writer and are not likely to ever use any of the other 
modules.  In any case, I think that it might be a good idea to do a 
survey of LO users and find out how many only use one of the modules, 
and if so which one.  If such a survey shows that a substantial number 
say 40% of users only use Writer, then it might be a good idea to work 
to be able to offer a Writer only package.  I know that if a Writer only 
package were available from LibreOffice, that is what I would download 
and use. 




To produce such a package I expect,  would mean stripping out ALL code 
not used specifically by Writer.  As an example, back when I was using 
Microsoft, I never used office, I only purchased Word, I never had or 
wanted Excel, PowerPoint, or any of the other programs that make up the 
Office package.  What I bought and recommended to others was a package 
called Home Essentials.  As I remember it had the Encarta encyclopedia, 
MS Money, MS Works and other stuff, but the important thing was that  it 
included a full copy of Word at a lower price than you would otherwise 
pay for Word alone.  Whatever, anyway the point I am making is that I 
was only interested in Word, (this was all before OOo was available) and 
I suspect that I am not all that unusual as far as end users are 
concerned. 


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Re: [tdf-discuss] New "LibreOffice Reader" Eliminates Need for "PDF Reader"

2011-07-03 Thread Ian Lynch 
On 2 July 2011 23:22, Robert Derman  wrote:

> Keith Curtis wrote:
>
>> The problem with building a reader is that it would be about the same size
>> as LibreOffice. OpenDocument is very different from PDF. For those who
>> can't
>> install LO, they probably can't install the reader either.
>>
>>
> Perhaps separating the modules of LO so that users could download and
> install only the parts that they actually want, for instance I NEVER use
> spreadsheets and probably never would use any part of the LO package other
> than Writer.  There is a small chance that I might use the database, but the
> rest of it never.
>

The snag as I understand it is that there is a lot of code shared between
components so separating them is not easy and would not result in as big a
saving in "size" as one would think. I use Writer but I tend to use Google
spreadsheets as I need to share them collaboratively. I use Inkscape rather
than Draw simply because I like it better. I doubt I would ever use Base.
Perhaps Impress on occasions. But I think Impress and Draw share a lot of
code so its probably not going to save much having one without the other.

I believe there is quite a bit of redundant code in OOo so would a better
starting point not be to get rid of as much of this as possible?

-- 
Ian

Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications (The Schools ITQ)

www.theINGOTs.org +44 (0)1827 305940

The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth,
Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and
Wales.

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