Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: x86_64 Windows build
Quoting Simos Xenitellis: Per mailing list etiquette, it's better to start a new thread to discuss mobile LibO. This thread is about what needs to be done to get native Win64 LibO, and how to find developers to join the effort. It has beceom a thread on mobile LibO by default. We've been told that it's more important to cram it into a mobile device than to do a 64-bit Windows version. Developers can therefore concentrate on how to get people to do spreadsheets on a cell phone and forget about Win64. P. -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: x86_64 Windows build
Quoting Simos Xenitellis: Per mailing list etiquette, it's better to start a new thread to discuss mobile LibO. This thread is about what needs to be done to get native Win64 LibO, and how to find developers to join the effort. It has evolved into a thread on mobile LO by default. We've been told that it's more important to cram it into a mobile device than to do a 64-bit Windows version. Developers can therefore concentrate on how to get people to do spreadsheets on a cell phone and forget about Win64. P. -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Old Bugs
Quoting TomW: To use Ctrl F as the shortcut for 'Alternate dialog Find Replace for Writer', do the following: Open 'Alternate dialog Find Replace for Writer' Click on 'Batch ', the Batch Manager Click on 'Key Shortcuts' In the top dropdown box, select 'Altsearch - dialog'. At the bottom of the dialog, assign the new shortcut: Ctrl F. Hope this helps. It does work for me Tom It certainly did work for me too. Thank you! P. -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Old Bugs
Quoting Marc Paré: So, for everyone, do you think that we could submit this as a feature request and if it were adopted, would it have a negative impact on the new or casual user's use of the search function? I think it certainly should be a permanent feature. I don't think new or casual users would find it offputting even though many of the features might be overkill for them. One possibility would be to hide all but the simplest features and provide an Advanced (or similar) button that would reveal them (and make it sticky so that once you've chosen Advanced it always appears whenever you hit Ctrl-F). P. -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Old Bugs
Quoting Steven Shelton: This is also a pretty much standard extension for all of my installs, but, to be honest, I don't know if average users would like it or hate it. For one, it seems to take forever to come up with you call for it with a hot key. I've noticed a slight delay ( 1 second) the first time it's called; after that it pops up instantly. This with Win 7 Ultimate on my 4-core Dell workhorse. For another, the search dialog may be intimidating for entry-level users. And it's not very pretty. The latter I don't care about terribly much in my daily use, but I think that if you want the application to be seen as a professional level app, pretty is an important part of that. As I mentioned in my reply to Marc's posting, the advanced features could be hidden, to be opened with an Advanced button. Pretty certainly is an important aspect that's lacking in it right now. P. -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Old Bugs
Quoting Steven Shelton: I'm reluctant to download the beta since the Web site says it will overwrite my existing Oo and I don't have an available spare machine at the moment. I'll see if I can free up one and try it. I am not sure if this is still the case. Maybe someone else can comment on this? I thought it was fixed in Beta2. This is fixed in Beta 2. Then the Web site needs updating. It still says: Be advised that the current beta might replace your OpenOffice.org installation. However, LibO crashes constantly on my Windows XP box. I tried to use it for a bit to test it, and the crashes were so frequent it was entirely unusable. I finally downloaded it to my standby machine (I *never* install beta versions of anything on my main box), with Win 7 Home Premium. Seems to run OK but I haven't had time to do anything meaningful with it yet. P. -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] LibreOffice UI should be tweaked, not reinvented
Quoting Michel Gagnon: Finally, if we need to train people to the proper use of word-processing software, I would suggest that emphasis be given, in order to the following nasty habits: – proper use of spaces and punctuation (hyphen vs n-dash vs m-dash); – proper use of indents and tabulations (many people still use spaces or default tabs in succession); – proper use of space before paragraph and paragraph-chaining options such as keep with next paragraph, rather than paragraph returns in series. The problem is to define proper use. This is an elusive attribute with wide national and cultural differences that would be hard -- if not impossible -- to enforce. Rigidly forcing people to adhere to a proper usage when they have other customs would be *most* offputting. This also starts to move into the minefield of personal taste: I might prefer one style while you might prefer something quite different. P. -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] LibreOffice UI should be tweaked, not reinvented
Quoting Jim White: I think you missed Michel's point. The examples he gave of proper use are those formatting features that will make re-formatting easier. If we encourage such proper use through the design of the UI, as well as through education, many will be happier with the product. -JimW I was trying to say that one person's idea of proper use is another's idea of mis-use. Consider the following: 1.- Introduction: This chapter, is the introduction- the initial explanation -, of the subject blah blah blah etc etc... This is considered perfectly proper here in Spain. I think it's awful, but that's what local custom requires. It breaks any number of the punctuation rules I was taught as a youngster in the UK but is absolutely valid here. I'm not sure how these wide cultural differences can -- or even should -- be catered for in a UI. P. -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: x86_64 Windows build
Quoting e-letter: In terms of priorities, making LO the default for mobile (e.g. android) is more important than windoze. That's certainly a novel approach: giving 90% of computer users lower priority so that 1% of users can prepare presentations on their cell phones. Bound to be a wild success. P. -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: x86_64 Windows build
Quoting T. J. Brumfield: In all fairness, Android tablets could become a large emerging market, but Windows is still by far the predominant market. But how many people will use them for heavy-duty word processing, spreadsheeting and presenting? LO/OO is a heavy-duty package for heavy-duty work, after all. I've tried typing on my stepson's iPad (on the couple of occasions when I've been able to prise it from his grip) and it's hopeless. OK for Web surfing, short e-mails, etc, but tablet ergonomics are completely unsuited for serious work. Even laptops are dubious (nasty keyboards, small screens, etc). P. -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Old Bugs
Quoting Graham Lauder: There is an extension which is pretty much a compulsory install on any OOo instance l use and it does what you ask here. http://extensions.services.openoffice.org/en/search/node/altsearch Thanks! It does indeed do what I want (and a lot more). Now if I can just figure out how to open that when I hit Ctrl-F instead of opening the standard Find Replace... P. -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Old Bugs
I have only today joined this discussion so I don't know whether this has already been discussed or not. There are two reasons why I have just paid money to upgrade to Office 2010 instead of switching to OO/LO: 1. Complete file compatibility. I frequently handle documents with very complex formatting. These come from my clients, all of whom use MS Office. I translate and edit the documents and return them. They *must* retain 100% of the original formatting. So far this has not been the case with Oo. 2. Search and replace. I work with large documents, often 400+ pages. As I'm translating, I usually come across a word or phrase that I know will be repeated throughout the document so I search and replace it to avoid having to type it continuously. I do this *dozens* of times a day. MS Word leaves me where I was when I did the S/R so that I can continue working. Oo leaves me at the point of the last replace so I have to manually go back to where I was. I know of many people for whom this is a dealbreaker -- they won't move to Oo/LO until this is fixed. Just my €0.02 worth. Peter. -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Old Bugs
Hi Cor: 2. Search and replace. I work with large documents, often 400+ pages. [snip] OK, that is easy to handle with a trick as user, but possibly also an relative easy fix (1)? As I said, when you have to do this constantly, dozens of times a day, it does become a real issue. I would have thought it quite simple to save the current position, do the search and replace then return to the previously-saved position. After all, if MS can do it then it can't be very difficult. :) P. -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Old Bugs
Hi Marc: As in all public mailists, just ignore the negative comments. Robert does not speak for people who are interested in fixing problems or concerns of users. Thanks! I've been around mail lists long enough to recognise the type. Just ignore him. Which is exactly what I plan to do. Peter. -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Old Bugs
Hi Marc: We would need an example of an incompatible file for us to see and examine. Could you provide us with an example? I can't supply any of the files since they are the property of my clients and I'm bound by some very strict non-disclosure agreements (they have the right to tear my balls off and sell my wife into slavery, or wording to that effect). If I can find time I'll try and duplicate it, but I'm really busy right now. It was nothing major, something involving graphics within tables, if I remember rightly. Maybe someone could chime in on this one? If not, could you, Pete, please check to see if the latest LibO Beta2 still has this problem. If so, maybe we could have a dev look into it for a fix or at least move it up a bit on their list of bugs for repairs. I'm reluctant to download the beta since the Web site says it will overwrite my existing Oo and I don't have an available spare machine at the moment. I'll see if I can free up one and try it. Peter. -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Old Bugs
Quoting Robert Derman: On a separate subject, to Peter above, I can see where your profession certainly justifies the expenditure for MS Office, I would hope however that you at least downloaded and installed OOo/LO in addition, since it costs little or nothing and might at times prove useful, for instance opening some MS Office files where Office itself fails to be able to open them. (This does happen). I've been downloading version after version of Oo for years (current one is 3.2.1) and it has been getting progressively more MS file compatible. Yes, Office does sometimes fail at opening Office files, although in my experience this seems to happen when one of my clients does something strange at saving time or includes graphics prepared with some weirdo technical drawing program that nobody's ever heard of. Certainly there have been occasions when I've used Oo to open such a file and save it, after which Office has had no problem with it. P. -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] LibreOffice UI should be tweaked, not reinvented
Quoting T. J. Brumfield: One of the advantages of LibreOffice/OOo over MS Office is that the interface is familiar and easy to grasp. And while the Ribbon interface has improved from 2007 to 2010, it is still unpopular for a reason. The core ideal of a dynamic interface that shows the most common features sounds good on paper, but occassionally you need the lesser used features and you can't find them. Menus still provide a familiar and easy to use method of organizing a large number of features. Very true. I changed from Office 2003 straight to 2010 and I sometimes find myself on the verge of violence when looking for some features, even fairly common ones (at least common in my work). Given the large number of features and complexity of office suites, one needs to consider both use cases. Most of the time we only need a small number of features and we want these conveniently located. Thankfully Lo/OOo handles this nicely today with keyboard shortcuts and toolbar icons. And the laundry list of other features can be found in the drop-down menus. It's said that most users of complex software use only 20% of its features. Unfortunately, not everybody uses the *same* 20%. (This is one reason why light versions usually fail.) One of my clients has over 10,000 PCs, almost all of which have MS Office installed. They had major problems with people adapting to Office 2007 from 2003. The Office 2007/2010 interface looks nice largely due to nice use of color, gradients, etc. The Lo/OOo interface looks antiquated largedly due to a flat pallete. But the ribbon itself is an odd mish-mash of different sized icons that look like they were assembled at random. Personally I'm not interested in eye candy and in fact I've turned off the Aero stuff on my Win 7 boxes to make them look like XP (and I did the same with my Linux systems -- the ultimate heresy!). Honestly, if we kept the existing system of toolbars and drop-down menus, wouldn't most of our users be happy? [snip] Since we know most users coming to Lo/OOo are coming from Microsoft Office, shouldn't we do our best to ease that transition? On the other hand, more and more users are moving to 2007/2010 and are getting used to it. People are expecting more eye candy and the old fashioned interface could well put them off, now that they've seen what wonders have come out of Redmond. [/sarcasm] I've had similar arguments with Linux fans who argue for a return to a command line on the grounds that it's easier and quicker. Well, no it isn't. Put one in front of the average office worker (to whom a computer is nothing but a tool for getting work done) and watch him/her freeze in horror. It was bad enough back in the DOS days... It would also be considerably less work than completely redesigning the UI from scratch. That is more time that could be dedicated to improving the project in other ways. If by improving the project you mean bug fixing, then of course. If you mean adding yet more features, well, just how good does a word processor or spreadsheet have to be? Is there a limit to the number of new features that can be added without causing feature overload? In 30+ years in the computer business I've seen any number of cases where something has been done purely because it can be done, regardless of whether it's of any use to anyone. Just a thought. P. -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Old Bugs
Quoting Marc Paré: And yes, MSO format conversions are not 100% and where there are power users like Peter, it may be difficult to rationalize using LibO when his customers are unwilling to adopt an ODF format which would simply work. There is always the option for Peter to propose a change in office suite to his clients and suggest that a free migration to LibO would save them quite a bit in expenditures and would still provide them with the same functionality as MSO but using the ODF formats instead. My clients are mostly major corporations who don't tend to welcome IT strategy suggestions from their suppliers! Sure, they're aware of OO and open source in general but they're not planning to change anytime soon. This is not because they've been brainwashed by MS; it's mostly because they can't afford (financially and timewise) the risk of having to re-train thousands of users with the productivity drop that this would involve. P. -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Old Bugs
Quoting Frank Esposito: mostly because they can't afford (financially and timewise) the risk of having to re-train thousands of users with the productivity drop that this would involve I have to say, if that was the case, then no one would have upped to 2007/2010. The last company I worked for who upgraded spent millions on training and roll-out costs. From talking to them, it's precisely because they were bitten when they moved from Office 2003 to 2007 that they're reluctant to make any further moves, for the time being at least. I just don't think corporations, especially the bigger ones trust free software yet. This is also true, although I've found a surprising number of IT professionals who are aware of, trust and are enthusiastic about open source software at a personal level. It's higher up where the problems lie, especially after the 2003 to 2007 conversion costs. P. -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Old Bugs
Quoting Ernst W. Winter: Yes sounds good. How did the city of Munich change 14,000 PC to OOo? Since I'm in Spain and not in Munich, I have no idea. I do think where there is a willing there will be a way. If Govermnet Authorities can change, why can't a corporation change. Public authorities don't have to make a profit. Corporations do. The changes we are discussing here cost money. Is it what people decide or the company? The company, of course. besides I don't believe that all employees are stupid or lazy when it comes to learningt something new. Nobody is saying they are. But re-training still takes time. P. -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Old Bugs
Quoting Marc Paré: I understand that perfectly well. I am a teacher and school boards are comparable to major corporations, I sit on an IT committee (software acquisition) and we talk often about migration. But, the question of IT support for OS and software is a large issue. They are more and more interested in the financial savings though. I think that this will eventually lead them to migration, the $$$ is just too attractive. The difference is of course that public authorities don't have to make a profit while corporations do. Corporations also tend to think short term, so an immediate retraining cost is more important than possible long term savings. On the other hand, financial savings are likely to be a major impetus for public authorities as their belts are increasingly tightened. P. -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Old Bugs
Quoting Charles Marcus: There will *never* be 100% compatibility... like I said earlier, even Microsoft doesn't achieve that between different versions of its own programs. Oddly, I can't offhand remember having any backwards compatibility problems. I have had very occasional problems loading files saved with the *same* version. P. -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Old Bugs
I answered a posting from Ernst W. Winter: Yes sounds good. How did the city of Munich change 14,000 PC to OOo? with a somewhat cursory I don't know but the question piqued my interest. A few minutes' Googling came up with the answer: It didn't. Reports (e.g., at http://blog.worldlabel.com/2009/limux-where-the-munich-linux-revolution-is-today.html) show that only 80% of the city's 14,000 PCs will have been changed to open source by 2012 - that's EIGHT YEARS after the project was given the green light. To be fair, Oo was only a small part of the changeover, which involved an upfront cost of €13 million for LiMux, a special version of Linux. The council says that's €2 million MORE than it would have cost to upgrade from Windows NT4 to XP, but their point wasn't short-term financial saving -- they were more concerned about being tied to a single supplier. While a city council can apparently afford to spend this time and taxpayer's money changing to open source, no corporate CFO would even consider it. P. -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] LibreOffice UI should be tweaked, not reinvented
Quoting T. J. Brumfield: As someone who uses both MS Office and OOo on a daily basis, I find the OOo FAR MORE USABLE for an advanced user. Every day there are tasks I want to accomplish in MS Office, but I can't find the appropriate option in the Ribbon interface. It drives me nuts. It drives me nuts, too. I've been adding stuff to the Quick Access Toolbar but that's getting rather crowded. Also, I moved from a Spanish language version of 2003 to an English version of 2010 and I still keep on hitting CTRL-G for Guardar instead of CTRL-S for Save. I have a language mix here -- Spanish and English versions of Win 7, with both types of machines running Spanish and English language software. I'm therefore particularly sensitive to programmers relying on operating system texts: an English language program will ask me to click on OK while the button on the screen says Aceptar. Sloppy work, IMHO. I'm now downloading the LO beta and I'll be looking out for this! :) P. -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
