Re: [tdf-discuss] IBM donates code for Lotus Symphony to Apache

2013-01-21 Thread Ian Lynch
On 21 January 2013 18:20, Immanuel Giulea giulea.imman...@gmail.com wrote:
 I know talking about Apache is not one of our main priorities.
 But I still wanted to share the news about Lotus Symphony and OpenOffice
 merging back after their fork.

 https://blogs.apache.org/OOo/entry/merging_lotus_symphony_allegro_moderato


 What real impact, if any, will this have on LibreOffice?
 Apache OpenOffice 4.0 has no planned release date.

 What can LibreOffice gain from this news?

As far as I know, LO could take up the symphony code either directly
or through Apache.

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Re: [tdf-discuss] LO vs AOO : GPL/LGPL vs ASL licences

2013-01-02 Thread Ian Lynch
On 2 January 2013 16:00, Tanstaafl tansta...@libertytrek.org wrote:

 I think the most important distinction to an end user, aside from knowing
 that both allow them to *use* the software in any way they see fit -
 personal, commercial, etc, is that the LO project is able to benefit from
 AOO code, but AOO is not allowed to benefit from the LO code.


Not strictly speaking accurate in that GPL software could not be *used*, as
in integrated into a closed source application, even if the user saw fit to
do it. But in general the essence is correct. Better or worse is a matter
of opinion.


On 2013-01-01 1:17 PM, Andrew Douglas Pitonyak and...@pitonyak.org wrote:

 On 12/31/2012 02:40 PM, Immanuel Giulea wrote:

 In the marketing materials that I am writing covering LO vs AOO, I was
 wondering if it would be relevant to go into an explanation about why the
 GPL/LGPL licence used by LO was superior to the ASL as a true open
 source.


 An average user does not care and will likely only be confused by any
 claim that LO is better than AOO based on LO using a more restrictive
 license or some sort of moral high ground that people should only use
 software using this license.  I expect that the more a person cares
 about the distinction, the more likely they will not need marketing
 material to explain it to them.

  I found this great document that explains the three most common
 licences:
 ASL, GPL and LGPL (MPL is not included) (1, 2)

 Any thoughts on how relevant it would be to extract some of the
 information
 and apply it on the materials?


 Almost none. If you do desire to add something, I would probably say
 something like this (but with cleaned up wording and more thought).
 Project contributors will note blah blah blah. Or have a section
 that calls out advantages specifically for people that changes stuff and
 contribute it back. The license is a choice, and some will prefer it and
 some will not.





 Cheers and Happy New Year

 Immanuel

 (1)
 http://www.openlogic.com/**Portals/172122/docs/**
 understanding-the-three-most-**common-open-source-licenses.**pdfhttp://www.openlogic.com/Portals/172122/docs/understanding-the-three-most-common-open-source-licenses.pdf

 (2) 
 http://www.slideshare.net/**slideshow/embed_code/10518967http://www.slideshare.net/slideshow/embed_code/10518967




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Re: [board-discuss] Market Share

2012-02-23 Thread Ian Lynch
On 23 February 2012 10:35, Michael Meeks michael.me...@suse.com wrote:

 Hi Jaime,

 On Wed, 2012-02-22 at 20:13 +0100, Jaime R. Garza wrote:
  does anyone have a reliable source for the actual Office Suite Maket
 Share?

 Not really a question for the board list :-)

  Basically I need to know how is LibreOffice/OpenOffice, GoogleDocs and
  MSOffice.

 Back in 2010 this study was done:


 http://www.webmasterpro.de/portal/news/2010/02/05/international-openoffice-market-shares.html

Presumably the market has changed a fair bit since then, and I'd
 expect
 the results to work only for Windows.

Of course, you need to read the stats at the bottom, caveats about
 expired MS Office test versions etc.

Last I saw numbers for Google Docs it was in the 40m user range, by
 contrast in 2000 Wordperfect's user-base was estimated at 35m users or
 so.


What is generally more interesting is trends. I should think Google Docs
and OOo/LO usage is increasing.  But question is at what rate?


HTH,

Michael.

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Re: IBM is alive ;)

2012-02-11 Thread Ian Lynch
On 9 February 2012 05:29, Michelle Konzack
linux4miche...@tamay-dogan.netwrote:

 Hello Jonathan Aquilina,

 Am 2012-02-04 15:37:19, hacktest Du folgendes herunter:
  The migration to the Cloud seems quite interesting and fit for a general
  discussion list ;)
  Its actually quite funny I was thinking of offering something in the
  cloud with a web based version of LO to my clients where they would
  rent a virtual private server for the office and login or use the
  web version to do their work respectivley.

 Currently I develop a Cloud-Service and I have already asked for a  Web-
 Version of OOo or LO...  ;-)


Without it AOO/LO has no long term future. Most of us in my company use
Google Docs and our own web pages in Drupal far more than we use Writer and
Calc. Ok, we are a bit ahead of the general curve but the scope to
collaborate with our business partners is just so much more efficient it's
a no-brainer. We rarely need complex features but we do need to share
ideas and document development.

For us Writer and Calc are more to do with handling legacy documents from
customers and government agencies than the sharp end of the business.

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Re: IBM is alive ;)

2012-02-11 Thread Ian Lynch
On 11 February 2012 12:09, Pedro pedl...@gmail.com wrote:


 Ian Lynch wrote
 
  Without it AOO/LO has no long term future. Most of us in my company use
  Google Docs and our own web pages in Drupal far more than we use Writer
  and
  Calc. Ok, we are a bit ahead of the general curve but the scope to
  collaborate with our business partners is just so much more efficient
 it's
  a no-brainer. We rarely need complex features but we do need to share
  ideas and document development.
 
  For us Writer and Calc are more to do with handling legacy documents from
  customers and government agencies than the sharp end of the business.
 

 Which means that it makes even more sense to have a LibO Docs installed in
 your own server, instead of having them in Google Docs (unless you happen
 to
 trust Google :) ) or IBM Docs (which IMO has more credibility than Google,
 but still the documents are on THEIR servers)


Depends on the documents. Few of ours are that critical and those that are
on on our own servers and backed up to several different places.  It would
be a nice to have but probably can't be too rigid because we share
documents with people outside our company too.


 This would also mean you should be able to handle all the legacy documents
 from a single Office suite instead of having to learn/teach two different
 Office suites.


Sure if there was a web based OOo/LO we'd probably use it, but Google Docs
has a good head start and every day the gap to make the transition will get
bigger.


 Makes perfect sense to me. The more I think about, the more I hope it will
 become a reality!

 Regards,
 Pedro

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Is Microsoft getting worried about free Office suites?

2011-12-02 Thread Ian Lynch
On 1 December 2011 14:27, toki toki.kant...@gmail.com wrote:

 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1

 On 28/11/11 11:14, Pedro wrote:
  I'm wondering if the recent offer for download of the add supported
 limited
  edition of Microsoft Office Starter is a reaction to the improving quality

 Microsoft has been experimenting with various low-cost/no-cost to the
 user pricing schemes for the last five or so years.

 Nothing to do with office suite quality, and everything to do with
 trying to convert Joe Sixpack into thinking that software for a service
 is the way things have always been done.


Snag is they are not going to get the margins that way and they will
effectively destroy their own cash cow. Its a classic problem.


 jonathon
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Is Microsoft getting worried about free Office suites?

2011-11-29 Thread Ian Lynch
On 28 November 2011 20:16, Robert Derman robert.der...@pressenter.comwrote:

 Olav Dahlum wrote:

 On 28/11/11 13:13, Pedro wrote:


 Ian Lynch wrote


 Google should do a version of Office based on the
 OOo/LibO code base and embed ads and search links, make it available
 freely
 and brand it Google Office.  Given their brand strength and marketing,
 that
 would probably do more to frighten MS than anything we can do. Slightly
 surprised they haven't already done it.



 Interesting concept. But I think they are investing a lot on the Cloud
 with the Chrome Book laptops that investing time on an offline suite
 doesn't
 make much sense...

 In the same line of thought: Google Docs is fine in the Developed
 countries where working in the Cloud is a reality. This is not so for
 more
 than 2/3 of the world's population
 (http://www.**internetworldstats.com/stats.**htmhttp://www.internetworldstats.com/stats.htm
 )

 I do believe that currently LibreOffice is the leading alternative to MS
 Office (but would love to see some numbers :) )


 Just a couple of observations here.  First, most businesses do not and
 probably will not in the near future,  go to cloud computing.


I sort of hope not, gives us competitive advantage but realistically, most
businesses are SMEs employing less than 10 people so I should think most
will migrate at least to partial use of cloud services. Like us, it doesn't
have to be all one thing or another.

 there are several reasons for this, foremost, security.


If cloud security was an insurmountable problem, I doubt we would have
on-line banking.


  Companies do not want important documents with proprietary information
 flying back and forth on the internet where they could be intercepted.


That misunderstands Cloud. We have content types that are secure to the
people that need to see them. Some pages on the web site can only be viewed
by people with certain permissions - eg the qualifications regulators and
us. If there is something that is really, really top secret we can make a
special arrangement for it but sending as an e-mail attachment is probably
worse security. In fact, Cloud enables us to authenticate certificates
directly on-line without a charge so it increases security in our most
important business activity. If we change our policies and procedures, the
regulators get them immediately, we don't have to remember to send them an
updated file and they don't have to have a management system for different
file versions.


 Second, reliability.  Remote servers and the infrastructure between local
 computers and them have been known to go down.  Most companies don't want
 to have to rely on vulnerable remote connections.


We all have 3G mobile phones here. In the rare occasion of an outage, we
can still access all our files via wireless. Ok, its a bit slower but its
certainly good enough. It also means I can access everything when abroad.
Its a bit like saying relying on electricity is relying on vulnerable
remote connections. If its critical you have back up batteries or a
generator, if it isn't you live with the odd power cut because overall the
benefits outweigh that.


 Another thing, most companies would like to own the resources that they
 depend on for day to day operation.


We own all our resources. Cloud does not mean you have to give up ownership
of your resources, it means you are buying a hosting service.

I hear a lot of people talking about how tablets are taking over, but
 somehow I just don't see a corporate steno pool using tablets or
 smartphones to produce their important documents.


I don't see corporate steno pools at all. We all do our own admin because
its quicker and more efficient than hiring typists. Personally I don't use
a tablet but then maybe I'm just a bit set in my keyboard ways. I/o devices
is a whole different issue, but cloud enables you to choose any that suits
you irrespective of the OS, hardware or local apps.


  Desktop (tower case) computers will continue to dominate all serious
 corporate computing applications.  That means MS Office or suitable
 substitutes will continue to be the most important applications in the
 business world.


Actually laptops are already taking over. Once Android starts saturating
mobile devices that massively out number conventional computers now, I can
see it moving up and displacing most of the existing Windows desktops. So
for Linux domination, its most likely to come via Android. But that will
take time - after all some people still use typewriters. I'd be surprised
though that if in 5 years we don't see some radical changes in dominant
apps. Look at web browsers who would have guessed IE would be down around
50% of the market 5 years ago?

The biggest reason, as far as I can see it that MS Office will continue to
 dominate is not because of file format tie up, at least not from 2014 on,
 but because of quality shortcomings in all competing products.


More simply habit and brand strength. Coca Cola

Re: [tdf-discuss] Is Microsoft getting worried about free Office suites?

2011-11-28 Thread Ian Lynch
On 28 November 2011 11:14, Pedro pedl...@gmail.com wrote:

 I'm wondering if the recent offer for download of the add supported
 limited
 edition of Microsoft Office Starter is a reaction to the improving quality
 and dynamics of several free Office suites (with LibreOffice leading the
 pack)


Possibly Google Docs leading the pack ;-).

I use both LibO and Google Docs, but probably slightly more Google these
days.

or if this is simply a strategy of giving something for free to get
 people to buy new hardware in the Spending Season?

 I know it may sound absurd but since Office Starter is for Windows Vista
 and
 7 only, some people might consider buying the new machine (the marketing
 people convinced they need) just to take advantage of this freebee :)


Thoughts?


I'd say it is probably an experiment to see what revenue could be generated
from ads, given that increasingly people expect to get software gratis and
without the hassle of license fees. That seems to me more likely to be
related to the influence of the internet than desktop apps. They need to
consider alternative revenue models to compete with Google's search and
advertising model. Google should do a version of Office based on the
OOo/LibO code base and embed ads and search links, make it available freely
and brand it Google Office.  Given their brand strength and marketing, that
would probably do more to frighten MS than anything we can do. Slightly
surprised they haven't already done it.

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Is Microsoft getting worried about free Office suites?

2011-11-28 Thread Ian Lynch
On 28 November 2011 12:13, Pedro pedl...@gmail.com wrote:


 Ian Lynch wrote
 
  Google should do a version of Office based on the
  OOo/LibO code base and embed ads and search links, make it available
  freely
  and brand it Google Office.  Given their brand strength and marketing,
  that
  would probably do more to frighten MS than anything we can do. Slightly
  surprised they haven't already done it.
 

 Interesting concept. But I think they are investing a lot on the Cloud
 with the Chrome Book laptops that investing time on an offline suite
 doesn't
 make much sense...


It might if it makes money for them :-)


 In the same line of thought: Google Docs is fine in the Developed
 countries where working in the Cloud is a reality. This is not so for
 more
 than 2/3 of the world's population
 (http://www.internetworldstats.com/stats.htm)


Except that access to broad band is increasing with Africa having the
highest rate of increase in access to mobile telephones. Cloud has the
potential to radically reduce costs of education in the developing world.
We recently did a trial of the INGOTs in Kenya with satellite links and
bussing computers to schools often with no electricity. Basically it worked
and the potential savings in paper and books alone could pay for a
broadband connection. When mobile computing devices get below $100 the
entire economics of the developing world will change. Of course a lot of
second hand hardware will find its way out there and I doubt any of these
will pay 10s of dollars, never mind 100s for MS Office on them.


 I do believe that currently LibreOffice is the leading alternative to MS
 Office (but would love to see some numbers :) )


It certainly is on Linux. On Windows I'm not sure. On the Cloud, its
Google. That is why MS is looking at new ways of gaining income.



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Re: [tdf-discuss] Associations around TDF

2011-11-03 Thread Ian Lynch
On 2 November 2011 21:25, Jean-Baptiste Faure jbf.fa...@orange.fr wrote:
 Le 02/11/2011 09:50, Andre Schnabel a écrit :
 Hi,

 Datum: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 14:36:01 -0200
 Von: Olivier Hallot olivier.hal...@documentfoundation.org
 An: discuss@documentfoundation.org
 Betreff: Re: [tdf-discuss] Associations around TDF

 Hello André

 Yes, please open a page.
 consider ALTA from Brazil as interested NGO.

 Ok, wiki page started at

 https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Partnering_with_NGOs


 For now I put some information about FroDev on the list of NGOs. Can
 you please add information about ALTA (and Sophie about La Mouette)?

 If anyone here knows about other entities, you are welcome to enhance the 
 list.

 Data for La Mouette have been added.

 Best regards.
 JBF

I added The Learning Machine

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Re: [tdf-discuss] ODF and HTML 5

2011-10-05 Thread Ian Lynch
 But if you want to see how you can view a file in the open document format
 (please! not libreoffice or openoffice format) then you can check out
 http://www.webodf.org/. WebODF is a package of JavaScript routines that
 unpacks the zip store and transforms the odf styles to css and then shows the
 document using the browser renderer. It's very efficient.

 So far it's mostly for viewing, but editing featues are being added.

Can you say what - if any - implications there are for WebODF and HTML 5?

Will HTML5 make it easier or harder to develop ODF web editing? Or
will it make no difference? Do you see any implications for the
development of ODF and HTML5 which would make a more powerful
combination?

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Re: [tdf-discuss] OASIS Standard ODF 1.2 Approved

2011-10-03 Thread Ian Lynch
On 2 October 2011 23:41, Jaime R. Garza gar...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hello All,

 Why isn't ODF added as an extension of HTML5?

That is a very good idea.

 This would define ODF as the defacto Web Standard for Files!

 An ideas who could try to pursue such an agreement?

Presumably get OASIS, TDF and AOO representatives to talk to W3C. Get
a strategy agreed with say Mozilla and Google for good browser support
for rendering and editing ODF documents. (assuming MS will not play
ball but you never know). Editing could be a subset to start with eg
limited to editing text.

 Cheers!

 Jaime


 On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 03:17, Dennis E. Hamilton 
 dennis.hamil...@acm.orgwrote:

 The OASIS ODF 1.2 Committee Specification 01 has been successfully advanced
 to an OASIS Standard, 
 http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/tc-announce/201109/msg00010.html.

 The final ballot results for approval of OASIS Standard ODF 1.2 is at 
 http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/ballot.php?id=2115.

 Rob Weir has a nice summary on his blog, 
 http://www.robweir.com/blog/2011/09/odf12-approved.html.  He lists the
 names of the contributors of 1.2 from the specification.  Some of those
 names will be familiar here.

  - Dennis


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[tdf-discuss] ODF and HTML 5

2011-10-03 Thread Ian Lynch
There has been a proposal to try and get ODF recognised as an official
extension of HTML5. On the face of it it sounds a good idea but I
don't know enough about the details or whether this is already in
progress. I guess it would require discussion with W3C, OASIS, and
probably TDF and ASF as a minimum. A logical technical need could be
to develop ODF rendering and editing in web browsers. To start with
this might simply be a limited subset of what can be achieved in
OO/LibO.
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Re: [tdf-discuss] ODF and HTML 5

2011-10-03 Thread Ian Lynch
On 3 October 2011 18:02, Dennis E. Hamilton dennis.hamil...@acm.org wrote:
 My apologies for the heavy-duty cross-posting.  It might be good to pick a 
 single public list and a subject header and converge there.

 Q: WHERE IS THE PROPOSAL?

 This started as a simple e-mail list question by Jaime R. Garza on the 
 [tdf-discuss] list:
 http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/msg07698.html.

 There is no proposal in the sense of some technical submission to adapt ODF 
 for this purpose.  You are pretty  much seeing the extent of the discussion 
 so far.  The proposal is a paragraph and concept being echoed
 around these lists now.

Sorry, when I said proposal I meant it in a simple idea for discussion
sense rather than a formal proposal as in a project proposal requiring
lazy consensus or a vote. At this stage more a is this worth
discussing? (So that it might get refined to a specific proposal of
the type that gets voted on). Sorry for the confusion.
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Re: [steering-discuss] Base - a new mailing list?

2011-09-13 Thread Ian Lynch
I think part of the problem is the rise of client server databases with the
internet. It's a bit of an irony because to start with OOo used the
principle of connecting to a database rather than including the old Addabas
that was with StarOffice. Snag now is that even if the use of Base is
minority it's difficult to withdraw it without upsetting them.

Ian
Sent from my Android Smartphone.
www.theingots.org

On 13 Sep 2011 00:16, Tom Davies tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

Hi :)
Done that.  Been there.  It didn't work.  Base is dying. Can we just admit
that and remove it from LO?
Regards from
Tom :)


--- On Mon, 12/9/11, Thorsten Behrens t...@documentfoundation.org wrote:

From: Thorsten Behrens t...@documentfoundation.org

Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] Base - a new mailing list?
To: Tom Davies tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk
Cc: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org
Date: Monday, 12 September, 2011, 15:34


Tom Davies wrote:
 Do you mean how many expressed an interest and tried to give it a
 go during t...

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Re: [steering-discuss] Off-topic - please move to discuss@

2011-09-13 Thread Ian Lynch

  The general notion here was that
  having a separate Base list would not serve the purpose - so what
  other, concrete proposals are there to discuss within the SC?

 The general notion you're saying, IMHO, comes from people who are not
 directly involved in Base's issue itself. How many of those people who are
 saying no to the creation of the new list will be directly working on
 Base?

  If there are none yet, I'd indeed appreciate it if general
  brainstorming would *not* happen on this list.

 Maybe you should invite people who are willing to contribute on Base to
 jump
 in this discussion, wherever it should happen.


Why would a Base list not help? It would at least provide a potential focus?
So providing a Base list seems like a concrete proposal :-)

My 2 cents.

  Cheers,
 
  -- Thorsten
 
 Cheers.
 --
 Paulo de Souza Lima
 Técnico em Eletrônica e Administrador
 http://www.pasl.net.br
 http://almalivre.wordpress.com
 Curitiba - PR
 Linux User #432358
 Ubuntu User #28729

 For people to achieve peace in their relationships, spiritual peace and
 the
 peace among people, it's necessary, earlier, to win the internal battle
 between virtues and defects - Talal Husseini - Acropolitan Philosopher

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Re: [steering-discuss] Off-topic - please move to discuss@

2011-09-13 Thread Ian Lynch
On 13 September 2011 13:32, Charles-H. Schulz 
charles.sch...@documentfoundation.org wrote:

 Hello Ian, Tom, Paulo,

 2011/9/13 Ian Lynch ianrly...@gmail.com

The general notion here was that
having a separate Base list would not serve the purpose - so what
other, concrete proposals are there to discuss within the SC?
  
   The general notion you're saying, IMHO, comes from people who are not
   directly involved in Base's issue itself. How many of those people who
  are
   saying no to the creation of the new list will be directly working on
   Base?
  
If there are none yet, I'd indeed appreciate it if general
brainstorming would *not* happen on this list.
  
   Maybe you should invite people who are willing to contribute on Base to
   jump
   in this discussion, wherever it should happen.
  
 
  Why would a Base list not help? It would at least provide a potential
  focus?
  So providing a Base list seems like a concrete proposal :-)
 
 
 Concrete proposals are:

 - a bugfix
 - a patch for a new feature (might be matching one or more easy hacks)
 - bug reports
 - UX testing
 - marketing collaterals
 - Design Requests For Enhancements studies
 - documentation writing
 - localization work

 The rest is not a concrete proposal. A concrete proposal of a new mailing
 list is nothing. It's an invitation to talk, and talk is *very cheap*.


Charles I have now had 2 responses from you in the last few minutes which
have a tone that seems at best pretty negative. I'm not sure why you are
upset with me. I certainly know talk is cheap, but then courtesy doesn't
cost anything either.

Don't worry, I will go to places where things are a little more cordial.
-- 
Ian

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Re: [steering-discuss] Certification of end-user skills

2011-09-08 Thread Ian Lynch
On 7 September 2011 15:56, Tom Davies tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

 Hi :)
 Bad was not really the right word.  Negative would have been more apt.
 Anyway the point is that i mis-read the email and failed to see the
 positives.
 Written communication is sometimes limited because it it lacks 90% of what
 you
 get from face-to-face.  On the other hand it neatly gets around a lot of
 prejudices so on balance it usually works quite well.


 I think we all want LibreOffice to get out there as much as possible and to
 have
 good support structures, if that's reasonably easily possible.  This and
 other
 training programmes seem an excellent way to achieve that.
 Regards from
 Tom :)


Hi all, I'm back from sunny Granada to cool and Cloudy Birmingham :-)

Here is a link to a page with a scan of a certificate with an OOo logo. This
would be replaced by a LibO logo for candidates who are LibO users. The
certificate is in Word Processing - our emphasis is on WP skills rather than
specific button pressing in particular products - however, the logo
denotes the context in which those skills were developed and assessed.

The draft handbook for assessors can be downloaded from the Link below the
certificate image.

If there is anything anyone is unhappy about with wording etc please let me
know asap as the handbook is currently being translated into Spanish and we
will need to use it next week. We can always release an updated version
later though. We will be using Lulu for paper publishing and ebooks, pdf,
odt and web pages for digital versions. All Creative Commons licensed so
anyone can customise to their own particular needs. Probably we will produce
multiple language versions using EU grant funding.


 From: Charles-H. Schulz charles.sch...@documentfoundation.org
 To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org
 Sent: Wed, 7 September, 2011 15:24:37
 Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] Certification of end-user skills

 The bad parts? :-)

 Best,
 Charles.
 Le 7 sept. 2011 15:11, Tom Davies tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk a écrit :
  Hi :)
  Fantastic :) I think i only read the bad parts of Charles' post 
 completely
  missed the good. Great to hear it's beginning to click into place :)
  Regards from
  Tom :)
 
 
 
 
  
  From: Ian Lynch ianrly...@gmail.com
  To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org
  Sent: Wed, 7 September, 2011 12:21:07
  Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] Certification of end-user skills
 
  Ok, no problem, that is what we intended.
 
  snip /
 
  Ian
  Sent from my Android Smartphone.
  www.theingots.org
 
  On 7 Sep 2011 12:24, Andre Schnabel andre.schna...@gmx.net wrote:
 
  Hi,
 
  snip /
 
  Just to add: the LibreOffice-Logo without TDF tag line should be used.
 
  regards,
 
  André
 
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Re: [steering-discuss] Certification of end-user skills

2011-09-08 Thread Ian Lynch
Oops forgot the link!
Its here

https://theingots.org/community/OOoCert

On 8 September 2011 11:50, Ian Lynch ianrly...@gmail.com wrote:

 On 7 September 2011 15:56, Tom Davies tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

 Hi :)
 Bad was not really the right word.  Negative would have been more apt.
 Anyway the point is that i mis-read the email and failed to see the
 positives.
 Written communication is sometimes limited because it it lacks 90% of what
 you
 get from face-to-face.  On the other hand it neatly gets around a lot of
 prejudices so on balance it usually works quite well.


 I think we all want LibreOffice to get out there as much as possible and
 to have
 good support structures, if that's reasonably easily possible.  This and
 other
 training programmes seem an excellent way to achieve that.
 Regards from
 Tom :)


 Hi all, I'm back from sunny Granada to cool and Cloudy Birmingham :-)

 Here is a link to a page with a scan of a certificate with an OOo logo.
 This would be replaced by a LibO logo for candidates who are LibO users. The
 certificate is in Word Processing - our emphasis is on WP skills rather than
 specific button pressing in particular products - however, the logo
 denotes the context in which those skills were developed and assessed.

 The draft handbook for assessors can be downloaded from the Link below the
 certificate image.

 If there is anything anyone is unhappy about with wording etc please let me
 know asap as the handbook is currently being translated into Spanish and we
 will need to use it next week. We can always release an updated version
 later though. We will be using Lulu for paper publishing and ebooks, pdf,
 odt and web pages for digital versions. All Creative Commons licensed so
 anyone can customise to their own particular needs. Probably we will produce
 multiple language versions using EU grant funding.

 
 From: Charles-H. Schulz charles.sch...@documentfoundation.org
 To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org
 Sent: Wed, 7 September, 2011 15:24:37
 Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] Certification of end-user skills

 The bad parts? :-)

 Best,
 Charles.
 Le 7 sept. 2011 15:11, Tom Davies tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk a écrit :
  Hi :)
  Fantastic :) I think i only read the bad parts of Charles' post 
 completely
  missed the good. Great to hear it's beginning to click into place :)
  Regards from
  Tom :)
 
 
 
 
  
  From: Ian Lynch ianrly...@gmail.com
  To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org
  Sent: Wed, 7 September, 2011 12:21:07
  Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] Certification of end-user skills
 
  Ok, no problem, that is what we intended.
 
  snip /
 
  Ian
  Sent from my Android Smartphone.
  www.theingots.org
 
  On 7 Sep 2011 12:24, Andre Schnabel andre.schna...@gmx.net wrote:
 
  Hi,
 
  snip /
 
  Just to add: the LibreOffice-Logo without TDF tag line should be used.
 
  regards,
 
  André
 
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[tdf-discuss] Barcamp at Oxford University UK

2011-08-04 Thread Ian Lynch
Hi all,

On behalf of Ross Gardler at Apache and OSSwatch, I'm inviting everyone who
can make it to a BarCamp.

http://barcamp.org/w/page/400249/BarCampApacheOxford

What happens there is defined by the people who attend. The schedule is not
defined until the day itself, so this is a great opportunity for a neutral
space to explore whatever comes to mind. There are specific people attending
interested in promoting cooperation between LibO and Apache OOo (I'm one of
them but not yet on the attendee list last time I checked). Having said that
you can see from the interests listed there that there is scope for a lot of
FOSS cross-pollination so to speak.

The only reason Apache is in the title is because the ASF underwrite the
fixed costs so no need to feel it will be dominated by Apache issues. If
anyone can make it I look forward to meeting you!

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Barcamp at Oxford University UK

2011-08-04 Thread Ian Lynch
On 4 August 2011 16:30, The Contrarian the.contrar...@gmail.com wrote:

 Do we have to sign an Apache contributor agreement in order to attend? It
 seems to be necessary for everything else...


No, Apache contributor agreements are needed for contributing code and
stuff. As I said, this is more a social event to get people together. Apache
will be paying for food and the venue though so maybe there is a free lunch
if not free beer ;-).  As I said, the only reason Apache is in the title is
because they are underwriting the cost.


 On 4 Aug 2011, at 16:19, Ian Lynch wrote:

  Hi all,
 
  On behalf of Ross Gardler at Apache and OSSwatch, I'm inviting everyone
 who
  can make it to a BarCamp.
 
  http://barcamp.org/w/page/400249/BarCampApacheOxford
 
  What happens there is defined by the people who attend. The schedule is
 not
  defined until the day itself, so this is a great opportunity for a
 neutral
  space to explore whatever comes to mind. There are specific people
 attending
  interested in promoting cooperation between LibO and Apache OOo (I'm one
 of
  them but not yet on the attendee list last time I checked). Having said
 that
  you can see from the interests listed there that there is scope for a lot
 of
  FOSS cross-pollination so to speak.
 
  The only reason Apache is in the title is because the ASF underwrite
 the
  fixed costs so no need to feel it will be dominated by Apache issues. If
  anyone can make it I look forward to meeting you!
 
  --
  Ian
 
  Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications (The Schools ITQ)
 
  www.theINGOTs.org +44 (0)1827 305940
 
  The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth,
  Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and
  Wales.
 
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Re: [tdf-discuss] ignore m$ legacy?

2011-08-01 Thread Ian Lynch
2011/8/1 Marc-André Laverdière marc-an...@atc.tcs.com


 Why can't LO be a killer office that can handle _every document_ under
 the sun? That's VLC reputation in the multimedia field, and that works
 very very fine for them I think :)

 As for the spreading of ODF, I suggest to pick a different battle: the
 one where the governments make it the default format for all their
 forms. Now _that_ would change things.


+1. Difficult, but a good strategy.

When I started certification, there was insufficient  demand for a viable
business if we had only provided for OOo at the time. We certificated MS
users in *generic* skills of WP, SS, Drawing, Presenting and DB but made the
certification friendly to FOSS and used only FOSS examples in the guidance
on the grounds there were plenty of egs out there for MS. This has enabled
us to get into MS camps and some of them have switched. We know from student
Blogs that many of the students are now much more familiar with FOSS than
before. That wouldn't have happened if we had boycotted MS.
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Re: [tdf-discuss] ignore m$ legacy?

2011-07-22 Thread Ian Lynch
On 22 July 2011 02:06, Andrew Douglas Pitonyak and...@pitonyak.org wrote:

 On 07/21/2011 09:43 AM, Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote:

 On 21/07/2011 14:23, Andrew Douglas Pitonyak wrote:

 I am of the opinion that good inter-operability with MSO products makes
 it easier to attract new users and that poor inter-operability with MSO
 products makes it more difficult.

  I quite agree.  As (I would say) between 90 and 95% of the business
 world uses MSO, there's no incentive to change from MSO if the alternatives
 aren't 100% compatible in terms of formatting, other than cost of upgrading
 and the activities of the BSA and its' companions.
 My wife sends me documents written in Office 2003 which sometimes are so
 badly mangled when I open them in OO or LO that I have to open them in MSO
 to see what they should look like. And these are in general not complicated
 documentsHaving said that, then there have also been instances of
 formatting incompatibilities between different versions of MSO



  Much depends on the formatting that is used. Simple documents usually have
 no difficulties. Realize that in OOo I can represent things that I cannot
 represent in MSO and the opposite holds as well. Images anchored to
 paragraphs are particular troublesome.


Open Source Consortium is currently trying to get a UK government policy to
use simple document layouts for interoperability where ever possible.
Discourage unnecessary decoration, complex tables etc. IMHO it would improve
their documents in any case an lower the production costs so better for the
tax payer.

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Re: [tdf-discuss] New LibreOffice Reader Eliminates Need for PDF Reader

2011-07-06 Thread Ian Lynch
On 6 July 2011 08:45, Robert Derman robert.der...@pressenter.com wrote:

Someone explained here in a more detailed and understandable way just what
 the nature of the design of Staroffice actually is.  That in fact it is just
 one big program and the different modules are just different about 300 K
 each user interfaces which present different controls and screens to the
 user.

 If that is indeed the case, then it follows that the only way to get
 significantly smaller separate modules would be to toss out the entire
 program/codebase and start over from scratch writing smaller programs that
 don't include any of the functions not required for the purpose of that
 program/function/module.


Maybe. However there are probably objects that do general things like saving
a file or handling printing that could largely be lifted out an modified
without starting from absolute scratch. Of course the downside is that you
will have to replicate quite a lot of code with each application so the sum
total of code for the whole suite will get bigger while each individual app
will get smaller. Inkscape is a 25 meg download on its own so if you take
this as broadly comparable for Draw and that you need most of that in
Impress and Writer and Calc will be bigger. It might overall double the size
of the download for the whole suite with probably a minimum download of 25
meg for any individual component and perhaps as big as 50 meg for something
like Writer. So the question is whether the time and effort is worth it if
the only gain is a reduction in download size and then not that big a gain
and some making it worse.


 In other words the new Writer would not be able to function as a
 spreadsheet, or database, or drawing program, or presentation program,
 because the code, instructions to do those functions would not be present.
  The new Calc would not be able to function as a drawing program, and so on.
  This must be why it was said that to provide a mobile version of LO would
 require starting over from scratch and writing a new program.


Pretty well. It seems to me that a web version would be a better bet because
as bandwidth becomes more reliable you then don't need to download anything
and it will work on any mobile (or non-mobile) device. Snag again is that
this probably needs a rewrite although there is less need to break things
up. If we could get sponsorship for servers you could do it right now by
giving thin client logins. That would need either sponsorship or a revenue
stream for support costs. Advertising is one way of funding that sort of
service, certification, or charging end users. The latter I doubt because
competing products don't charge and it would probably back fire in terms of
pr.

I would guess that some of the speed/performance issues of OOo, LO are
 because of this monolithic design.  That for instance a spreadsheet that is
 ONLY a spreadsheet would run much faster.  As I understand it, this is the
 way that Microsoft Office is designed, with separate programs that are not
 integrated with each other.

 It seems to me that with such a monolithic design that we are missing the
 opportunity to provide one very unique capability, a combined function where
 you could use the word processor to create business forms, and within them,
 embed cells with spreadsheet or database functions, turn parts of the
 document read only, have automatic invoice # incrementing etc.  Many times
 when I had a small electronics company I wished for such a piece of software
 and never found one.


There used to be one on the old Acorn and Sinclair Z88s called Pipedream.


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Re: [tdf-discuss] New LibreOffice Reader Eliminates Need for PDF Reader

2011-07-05 Thread Ian Lynch
On 5 July 2011 21:58, Robert Derman robert.der...@pressenter.com wrote:

 e-letter wrote:

 As far as the request for the ability to download individual
 components of LO, this should not be enabled. The whole concept of the
 predecessor staroffice product was to provide various functionalities
 in terms of word-processing, spreadsheets, drawing, etc. and this
 should be continued.




 Perhaps this was a bad idea way back when Staroffice was first designed.


StarO was designed at a time when MSO had set the model for megalithic
design.  You can see why a proprietary software company would do this. It
focuses lock-in to the core productivity that could then extend further and
further. Cooperation between applications through interoperability based on
open standards was part of the original unix design concept but got lost
until the rise of the web. So at the time it was probably not seen to be
such a bad idea but in hindsight it clearly looks that way.

Saying that because a design decision was made 15 or more years ago it
should not be changed is a recipe for disaster. Things change and without
change you will at best get stagnation ad at worst rapid death.

 Those seeking smaller individual components should consider other
 programs such as abiword or gnumeric.


More likely Google Docs or similar web based productivity tools where groups
can share and edit data in real time.


 Since the ODF is now
 established, as long as such programs are odf-compliant, users can
 choose more confidently where to use the whole office paradigm or
 the unix way  (i.e. select specific programs to do only specific
 tasks).


ODF is not yet that well established. I wish it was.

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: New LibreOffice Reader Eliminates Need for PDF Reader

2011-07-04 Thread Ian Lynch

 Sorry to come in late on this thread, but there is an android ODF reader:
 http://www.androidzoom.com/**android_applications/**
 productivity/odf-viewer_mnhl.**htmlhttp://www.androidzoom.com/android_applications/productivity/odf-viewer_mnhl.html


 It seems to have rather come to a halt, but there may be code there which
 could be massaged into a reader (?)

 I'm in no way a developer, and have little experience with the reader,
 other than finding it can't open encrypted files. I suggested this to the
 developer, but he indicated he wasn't actually working on the project
 currently.


Just looked in the Android market on my Samsung Galaxy S. Found OpenOffice
Document Reader by Tom Tasche 250,000 downloads.

ODF viewer by olidroide 5-1 downloads

So looks like there are several odf viewers out there.

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Re: [tdf-discuss] New LibreOffice Reader Eliminates Need for PDF Reader

2011-07-03 Thread Ian Lynch
On 2 July 2011 23:22, Robert Derman robert.der...@pressenter.com wrote:

 Keith Curtis wrote:

 The problem with building a reader is that it would be about the same size
 as LibreOffice. OpenDocument is very different from PDF. For those who
 can't
 install LO, they probably can't install the reader either.


 Perhaps separating the modules of LO so that users could download and
 install only the parts that they actually want, for instance I NEVER use
 spreadsheets and probably never would use any part of the LO package other
 than Writer.  There is a small chance that I might use the database, but the
 rest of it never.


The snag as I understand it is that there is a lot of code shared between
components so separating them is not easy and would not result in as big a
saving in size as one would think. I use Writer but I tend to use Google
spreadsheets as I need to share them collaboratively. I use Inkscape rather
than Draw simply because I like it better. I doubt I would ever use Base.
Perhaps Impress on occasions. But I think Impress and Draw share a lot of
code so its probably not going to save much having one without the other.

I believe there is quite a bit of redundant code in OOo so would a better
starting point not be to get rid of as much of this as possible?

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Re: [tdf-discuss] New LibreOffice Reader Eliminates Need for PDF Reader

2011-07-03 Thread Ian Lynch
On 3 July 2011 21:38, Robert Derman robert.der...@pressenter.com wrote:

 Ian Lynch wrote:

 On 2 July 2011 23:22, Robert Derman robert.der...@pressenter.com wrote


 Keith Curtis wrote:


 The problem with building a reader is that it would be about the same
 size
 as LibreOffice. OpenDocument is very different from PDF. For those who
 can't
 install LO, they probably can't install the reader either


 Perhaps separating the modules of LO so that users could download and
 install only the parts that they actually want, for instance I NEVER use
 spreadsheets and probably never would use any part of the LO package
 other
 than Writer.  There is a small chance that I might use the database, but
 the
 rest of it never.


 The snag as I understand it is that there is a lot of code shared between
 components so separating them is not easy and would not result in as big a
 saving in size as one would think. I use Writer but I tend to use Google
 spreadsheets as I need to share them collaboratively. I use Inkscape
 rather
 than Draw simply because I like it better. I doubt I would ever use Base.
 Perhaps Impress on occasions. But I think Impress and Draw share a lot of
 code so its probably not going to save much having one without the other.

 I believe there is quite a bit of redundant code in OOo so would a better
 starting point not be to get rid of as much of this as possible?


 As I understand this is being done by the LO developers and much more
 effectively than OOo ever did.  As I understand doing a general clean-up of
 the code was never a priority with Sun management, although it probably
 should have been.


Good to know.

What I am wondering is if there aren't a lot of users like me who only ever
 use Writer and are not likely to ever use any of the other modules.


Probably.


  In any case, I think that it might be a good idea to do a survey of LO
 users and find out how many only use one of the modules, and if so which
 one.  If such a survey shows that a substantial number say 40% of users only
 use Writer, then it might be a good idea to work to be able to offer a
 Writer only package.  I know that if a Writer only package were available
 from LibreOffice, that is what I would download and use.


what if a Writer only package only save 30% of the code size, was quite a
lot of work to achieve and then you were left with two sets of code to
maintain? Would it be worth it? Don't get me wrong, I'd like to see
independent components. I'd also like to see at least Writer on Smartphones
and Tablets and I'd like to see a good web implementation of Writer. All
about the resources and priorities in the end.

To produce such a package I expect,  would mean stripping out ALL code not
 used specifically by Writer.


Depends how modular things are. That I don't know. My impression is that OOo
was designed in a megalithic way to make integration of the apps more
seamless.


  As an example, back when I was using Microsoft, I never used office, I
 only purchased Word, I never had or wanted Excel, PowerPoint, or any of the
 other programs that make up the Office package.  What I bought and
 recommended to others was a package called Home Essentials.  As I remember
 it had the Encarta encyclopedia, MS Money, MS Works and other stuff, but the
 important thing was that  it included a full copy of Word at a lower price
 than you would otherwise pay for Word alone.  Whatever, anyway the point I
 am making is that I was only interested in Word, (this was all before OOo
 was available) and I suspect that I am not all that unusual as far as end
 users are concerned.


I think their are fundamental design differences between MS Office and OOo
that make this less than straightforward to do.

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Re: [tdf-discuss] New LibreOffice Reader Eliminates Need for PDF Reader

2011-06-26 Thread Ian Lynch
On 26 June 2011 01:15, Sean White runicpala...@gmail.com wrote:

 I dont thinks thats normal somehow, i have been using Adobe Reader for
 years
 and have NEVER had it come past 200MB.


ISTR a whole load of adverising crap in one large Acrobat download.

Back to discussion, what's with all the PDF hate.


Not hate, irritation by misuse.  Hundreds of files to download that could
simply be in HTML pages (as Alexandro indicated). We get stuff originated in
whatever app and distributed in pdf format when it will never ever get
printed. In fact mostly you can produce a pdf from a web page if you really
need to anyway. I have 100 page application forms from the EU in Acrobat
that need huge hardware resources just to be usable. This stuff should be in
client server databases operated through web browsers not desktop pdf files.
I accept all this as transition noise as we move to mobile technologies and
the web. pdf was not originally designed for these purposes, it was designed
for systems putting the information on to paper and has been extended and
bloated accordingly. Arguably, rather like Office applications ;-).

 It serves a very good
 purpose a standard, editable document that shows up exactly how you want it
 WHEREVER you are and whatever OS you are using.


Not disputing that. If you want distribute a document accurately for
printing on paper, use pdf.


 this has always been its
 use and so it falls in a different document category to ODF.  ODF is an
 office format created to compete with MSO's doc, xls an ppt formats.  to
 essentially modify the underlying purpose to make it behave more like a PDF
 would waste most of what we have put into it.


I agree, so let's look at the future and that is the web and mobile
tecnologies. How do we get LibO to the web? That would be a far better
priority for the use of resources.

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Re: [tdf-discuss] New LibreOffice Reader Eliminates Need for PDF Reader

2011-06-25 Thread Ian Lynch
Manfred wrote:

I still believe that PDF is the best solution to distribute final versions
of text (and maybe other office) documents.

I'd say yes if they are likely to be printed on paper, no if it is only
likely to be read from a screen. Snag is desktop office software originates
from a time when all documents were printed to paper, this is no longer the
case. Why waste time replicating stuff that is already well-supported and
not going anywhere? Better to at least make some steps towards the future
which is HTML 5 and browsers rather than systems driven operating systems.
Short term popularity raising is not going to protect against longer term
obsolescence.

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Re: [tdf-discuss] New LibreOffice Reader Eliminates Need for PDF Reader

2011-06-25 Thread Ian Lynch
On 25 June 2011 10:02, timofonic timofonic timofo...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 3:42 AM, Nuno J. Silva nunojsi...@ist.utl.pt
 wrote:
  On 2011-06-24, Andrea Pescetti wrote:
 
  Marc Paré wrote:
  if we were to promote a quick and dirty
  LibreOffice Reader, very much like the Adobe Acrobat Reader, whose
  sole purpose is to provide the ability to read .odt files, there
  would be no need to carry .pdf formatted files.
 
  Heh. :-) Don't use Adobe Reader as an example of a reader, use
  instead some other PDF reader with a reasonable memory and disk space
  footprint. (Unless that's what you meant by quick and dirty.)
 
  This, however, won't work. Document fidelity is not the aim of ODT
  files, while it is the aim of PDF files (example: font embedding, but
  one could find many more). Replacing PDF by ODT is just not feasible due
  to the formats themselves, not to the lack of an ODF Reader.
 
  Font embedding is an issue, it could render the viewer useless.
 
  It's possible, at least, to make some room for compatible documents,
  by shipping a set of fonts with the viewer and announcing that as the
  standard fonts for ODF viewer.
 
  Unless there's some required feature of ODT that's not possible to
  reproduce in PDF, I suggest keeping with PDF for now: it is designed for
  portability and it's vectorial, so there's no loss.
 
 
  Someone suggested djvu (DeJaVU). I like djvu, I use it and I and spread
  the word about it, but IMHO it's main use is for scanned documents
  (making it so entire books can fit in a floppy!).
 
  Even if a pdf is larger than a djvu for the same document, if it was
  directly exported to pdf, it's vectorial. Converting to djvu makes it
  raster. IMHO that's a bad idea. YMMV.

 Are you sure about that? If yes, maybe there should be a Version 28
 with those improvements and more. Maybe DjVu format could get more
 succesful if TDF adopts it and promotes it as OASIS OpenDocument
 format (ODR?).

 It's the missing leg for the OpenDocument file format collection, I think.

  --
  Nuno J. Silva (aka njsg)
  gopher://sdf-eu.org/1/users/njsg
 
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What is the purpose of pdf? It's for putting documents on paper. If you
simply want to read a document on screen use a browser. There was a project
to develop a Firefox plugin through the OpenDocument Fellowship but I think
it has stalled.  I would rather encourage people to read screen based stuff
with a browser instead of having to download pdfs when the information is
rarely ever printed. If it needs to be LibO will produce a pdf to do it.
Seems to me that a browser plugin is a lot simpler task and a lot more
useful. Get Google to sponsor it for Chrome.
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Re: [tdf-discuss] New LibreOffice Reader Eliminates Need for PDF Reader

2011-06-25 Thread Ian Lynch
On 25 June 2011 13:37, Simon Phipps si...@webmink.com wrote:


 On 25 Jun 2011, at 08:33, Ian Lynch wrote:

  Manfred wrote:
 
  I still believe that PDF is the best solution to distribute final
 versions
  of text (and maybe other office) documents.
 
  I'd say yes if they are likely to be printed on paper, no if it is only
  likely to be read from a screen.

 I disagree. Once a document no longer needs editing (and this is a frequent
 need in daily life - think purchase receipt, invoice, insurance schedule and
 so on) it needs to be provided in an electronic format that cannot be easily
 altered. PDF plays this role, ODF doesn't.


In most cases those documents that you give as examples would be covered by
likely to be printed on paper.  That was my point, we already have pdfs
for this. pdf is less than optimal for storing documents that are only
viewed on screens.

ODF files can be encrypted and passworded in cases where security is
required so it is easy to make it difficult to alter, it's just relatively
rare to need to.

The world is moving to the web and desktop applications are going to have to
as well. All I'm saying is why waste time on readers when getting LibO to
the web is far more important. If you are going to do some sort of reader
make it something relevant to where things are going not to where they have
been or where need is already satisfied.

It's a different issue, but I think the reliance on pdfs as not easily
editable is dubious. There are plenty of pdf editors so if anyone really
wants to edit a receipt or invoice stored in that way they can. If they are
prepared to do unlawful things it's very unlikely that having to buy a pdf
editor is going to be much of a deterrent. That is a whole area of
difficulty that the paper reliant world has not come to terms with. We have
it with certificates. Paper based or pdf certificates are a major cause of
certification fraud because they are very easy to forge. The best way to
record such evidence is in a secure database that is quick and easy to
authenticate against. I can see a time when paper based documents are in a
small minority and important information will be in encrypted databases
where making it secure is much easier. Question is where does LibO fit into
that world?

S.

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Re: [tdf-discuss] TDF Certification

2011-06-24 Thread Ian Lynch
On 23 June 2011 12:09, Goran Rakic gra...@devbase.net wrote:

 У чет, 23. 06 2011. у 10:41 +0100, Ian Lynch пише:
  All it needs to do is have a set of criteria or even a simple
  contractual statement that the partner company providing services on
  behalf of the community will uphold community principles and not bring
  it into disrepute.

 Why the such contract is required? If trademark policy allows you to do
 the certification business, what is the point of the having a contract?


Because

1. It provides a formal relationship so that the partner company contributes
back to the project
2.  In the government and corporate worlds they don't understand the
informality of FOSS communities and might not commit without it.
3. Without it you run the risk of companies using the Trade Mark and
associating it with things the community would not want to be associated
with and no means of practical redress.

Of course you don't have to have a contract, we didn't plan on having one it
simply has advantages to both parties. Usually contracts do.

Are you suggesting there should be some exclusivity where only those who
 are signing a contract with TDF can do the certification? I see this as
 a real danger for the community.


No, it's just the same as here in the UK with the qualifications regulators.
If we meet the regulatory criteria then people have confidence in us if we
don't they won't. Any company willing to meet the criteria can be
accredited, it's not a matter of exclusion its about inclusion of those that
meet the criteria. Here are three simple examples of criteria a FOSS
community might want to apply.

1. The partner will give at least equal weight to supporting the
certification related to  free and open source products as they do to any
proprietary products.

2. The partner will make a reasonable contribution to the community
development effort in keeping with the benefit gained from association with
the community.

3. The partner will have sufficient quality assurance procedures and systems
in place so as to uphold the integrity of the community.

Of course you might disagree or want other criteria, these are just examples
to illustrate that the community can use these things to help further its
aims.


 Your contribution in terms of learning materials and LibreOffice
 promotion is valuable as such, I do not see why would you need further
 endorsements.


Because the corporate world and some governments will expect it. This is as
much if not more for community benefit than it is for us. We don't have a
shortage of potential lines of business development. In fact the reverse is
true, we have too many possibilities and insufficient resources to commit to
all of them. We currently operate without any community endorsement and we
have only come back to the possibility because of the changes with
Sun/Oracle/LibO/OOo we really don't need it specifically. However, I know of
at least one large potential customer that would at least like it if not
require it. Its probably not worth our while entering complex negotiations
with such an organisation if it will fail because they require official
contracts that are impossible to get.

Kind regards,
 Goran Rakic
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Re: [tdf-discuss] TDF Certification

2011-06-24 Thread Ian Lynch
On 24 June 2011 14:39, Uwe Altmann o...@altsys.de wrote:

 Hi Ian

 Am 22.06.11 17:01, schrieb Ian Lynch:
  On 6/22/11 1:40 PM, Ian Lynch wrote:

  ...The OpenOffice project application was submitted through OpenSaar in
  Germany. I wrote it but we thought it better to go through a different
  partner.

 Could you provide some more Information on this for me - that sounds
 quite interesting.
 I'm living in Saarbrücken and have been for years active member of the
 gemanophone OOo-Project but don't know anything about this.


Best to talk to Manfred Reiter and/or Bernhard  Mommenthal. I copied them
into the reply so you can get their contact e-mails from there.

I made an application last year through the UK NA but we had a project
already running and another was approved. I suspect they didn't like us to
have too many. So we reapplied with Germany as the lead. We could, in fact,
apply for several of these with different countries leading and different
sets of partners. It just needs some strategic organisation. The EQF
(European Qualifications Framework) and ECVET (New assessment methods for
vocational training) are high priorities for funding which is another reason
why LibO/OOo and any other FOSS project should consider developing
certification projects. There are some changes that should make it less
bureaucratic in future years. These grants are available year after year and
could bring millions of Euros into FOSS communities. However, the
application form is not for the faint hearted :-)

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Re: [tdf-discuss] New LibreOffice Reader Eliminates Need for PDF Reader

2011-06-23 Thread Ian Lynch
On 23 June 2011 22:40, Marc Paré m...@marcpare.com wrote:

 OK, this is just a teaser to entice people into a discussion of the
 following proposal.

 There is talk on the documentation list of the formats made available to
 users of our documents (manuals, reference books, etc). These for now are in
 .odt (ODF) and .pdf (Adobe) and possibly .html (being discussed on the
 documentation list).

 The purpose of this particular thread is NOT to continue the documentation
 thread on the merits of providing particular formats. If you are interested
 in taking this up, it is already being discussed on the documentation list.

 This thread is really about proposing, to the devs, the possibility of
 creating a LibreOffice Reader similar to the Adobe .pdf Reader. The idea
 is that, we are in a particularly advantageous position of providing an
 excellent popular office suite with a solid and well documented format (ODF)
 and, if we were to promote a quick and dirty LibreOffice Reader, very
 much like the Adobe Acrobat Reader, whose sole purpose is to provide the
 ability to read .odt files, there would be no need to carry .pdf
 formatted files.

 I would like to propose the following for discussion:

 The LibreOffice Reader would have the following characteristics:

 * small footprint
 * capable of reading ODF formatted files ONLY and .odt in particular
 * only capable of reading and form filling, NO editing capabilities (these
 are left to the expertise of the LibreOffice suite)
 * be able to interpret any of the LibreOffice highlighting effects and
 weblinking abilities
 * as much as possible code should not stray too far from the LibreOffice
 code in order to avoid a new divergent branch of software
 * TDF adopt LibreOffice Reader as its first secondary software project

 If, such a project were adopted, LibreOffice could then be adapted in such
 a way as to complement the LibreOffice Reader, very much like the
 relationship of the Adobe Acrobat list of software (Acrobat X Pro etc.)
 and their relationship with Acrobat Reader. The LibreOffice suite could
 have added functionality that would be compatible with the LibreOffice
 Reader and offer interested users, an opensource alternative to the .pdf
 format.

 Cheers

 Marc


Main problem is you are effectively competing with MS Office readers that do
a similar job wit .doc but have never displaced pdf. So I think the chances
of a LibO reader displacing pdf are not very high.
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Re: [tdf-discuss] OpenOffice.org Product Roadmap: made by whom ? was: Re: [discuss] remove of binfilter module

2011-06-17 Thread Ian Lynch
On 17 June 2011 12:08, sophie gautier.sop...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hi Drew,
 On 17/06/2011 13:34, drew wrote:
 [...]

  People in other countries are capable of directing their own affairs, I
 would think.

 Yes, and as we have seen with OOo, it works really well.

   Unless you are thinking of creating franchises, is that
 your goal?

 The idea, I think, come from me a quite long time ago. It's no creating
 franchise, but signing a partnership with those who makes money with our
 name, marks, whatever. I found it fair to reverse a small part of the
 benefices based on our work to the project. It would also prevent some abuse
 we have seen by the past, at least in France.
 I didn't work yet on it by lack of feedback any time I spoke about it. I
 don't want to be alone to push that, but still I have it in mind and my
 notes somewhere in the pile. Is it more clear (even if it's not detailed at
 all for the moment)?


I have proposed something similar on and off for perhaps 8 years :-)

As a specific example. We earn money from certification but not yet for any
specific products. If a certificate has an OOo logo on it we pay something
to Apache OOo project or a financial legal entity acting on its behalf. If a
certificate has a LibO logo same thing can be arranged. Not only does this
contribute funds, it gets the brand more highly visible and trains users.

Moodle works like this successfully in the education space using more
general support companies. The companies authorised to use the Moodle brand
and trademark for services pay back some of their earnings to Moodle HQ.
Moodle HQ can stay lean and focused on developing the product, others have
scope for business models that are sustainable and so the whole ecosystem
benefits.

Key things are to choose partners that understand the products, are
professionally qualified and experienced and have the infrastructure to
deliver without any bad effects. For that you need some sort of quality
assurance statement spelling out basic terms and conditions.
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Triple licensing?

2011-06-14 Thread Ian Lynch
On 14 June 2011 06:55, Keith Curtis keit...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hi all;

 I had an idea that you could offer to let people triple-license their
 changes.


How does that work? Surely if they licensed their work Apache it means there
is no need for the other licenses because the Apache license would
effectively over-ride the conditions of the other license. Maybe I'm missing
something here?

LibreOffice can become an upstream of Apache with this change. That
 way people not interested in setting up build servers, etc. can work here
 while Apache setup the infrastructure. Given the state of the code dump,
 many people will not be able to contribute today, and this lets them.

 I think this would be a nice invitation to the Apache community.

 What do you think?

 -Keith

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Triple licensing?

2011-06-14 Thread Ian Lynch
On 14 June 2011 11:38, Keith Curtis keit...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Tue, Jun 14, 2011 at 2:43 AM, Christoph Jopp j...@gmx.de wrote:

  Not automatically. Someone might want the more restrictive license
  because he wants to mix it with other code with a license incompatible
  to the least restrictive license you offer.
 
  Okay, good point.

 Anyway, I'm just thinking of a way for Apache people to contribute to now.
 It seems there is excitement over there, but they don't have something that
 builds, etc. It seems like perhaps half will be blocked for some time.

 You could let some people work here and create a tree with a queue of
 changes made by Apache contributors that Apache could adopt when they are
 ready. That could be a useful gift and a way for everyone to work now.


I'd like to see the desktop effort here at LibO and the developers at Apache
start on a new web based OOo even if that meant starting from scratch and
writing it in Javascript. Seems to me that without a web based version both
LibreO and OOo could become irrelevant anyway. Since LibO is already solidly
in the desktop groove it makes much more efficient use of resources for
Apache OOo to go to the web and also fits the Apache culture better. Files
would be interchangeable between desktop and web, 100% through odf. OK, it's
a big ask but this is probably the only opportunity that will arise for such
a big shift in strategy.  This strategy would mean anyone needing OOo now
has LibO for continuity while the web version is being created so if it
takes a couple of years it is not a disaster. Better to spend time on long
term sustainability than patching up and sorting out code that really
duplicates what is already available at LibO. Ok IBM symphony might be an
issue in that scenario but the project is not there simply to support that
product and I see wider and higher priorities.
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Enhancement Request: Comment Ranges

2011-06-12 Thread Ian Lynch
On 12 June 2011 14:57, adept techlists - kazar techli...@ade.pt wrote:

 I'll just add the point from a philosophical standpoint that almost more
 than enabling all humans to create documents (presos etc.), is enabling
 humans to work together.


Even better if it was on the web so that documents could be created
collaboratively ;-)

Pity we couldn't get LO and OOo to cooperate to establish one project to
carry on with the desktop project and another to develop a web based project
to rival and improve on Google Docs.

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

2011-06-06 Thread Ian Lynch
On 6 June 2011 05:16, Norbert Thiebaud nthieb...@gmail.com wrote:


 Ian Lynch wrote:
 
  On 5 June 2011 14:10, todd rme lt;toddrme2...@gmail.comgt; wrote:
 
  If that means using some licenses that are
  less than ideal from a philosophy point of view then so be it.
 

 That argument cut both way... except that apparently in your model,
 'philosophies' or more exactly 'principles'


It's not a model, its about how different individuals will look at things in
a complex situation.


 should be dropped for the 'greater good' as long as these are not _your_
 principles.


I'm not asking anyone to change their principles or drop anything. Maybe it
is a language thing, I'm saying that this inevitably happens.  It is a
complex situation and some people (not necessarily you) might not be aware
of all the possible consequences of particular actions. I'm not, I like
everyone is making best guesses. Discussion and trying out ideas can help.
It is entirely up to you to decide your own course of action.

and as a side note...

 * I find it extremely arrogant and insulting for a project that hasn't even
 built anything yet to self-proclaim itself as 'upstream'.


I'm not a member of ASF. I can see that a consequence of their license
compared to the LGPL means they would have to be upstream in a shared code
relationship. Its just a simple practical consequence of the licenses. If
TDF contributors decide they don't want that there will likely end up 2
divergent code bases. That is why I say there is a dilemma. Ok, ASF might
vote no to the code going into the incubator but then there is a risk that
Oracle gives the code to someone else, possibly TDF but I wouldn't bet my
house on that. It may well end up somewhere a lot more damaging to LO.

* I find the argument: 'it's not our fault, Oracle made us do it by
 releasing they code under AL2 very unconvincing.

I feel it is like saying.. well Joe offered me that present wrapped in my
 favorite color... it was a loaded gun without safety... what else could I
 do
 but start shooting ? You're entitled to do as you want... but this attempt
 to wash your hand of any responsibility for the consequences of your
 actions...


I have to reiterate, I'm an OOo community member not an Apache member. I'm
not personally washing my hands of anything, I'm trying to work out the
least bad option in a complicated situation. I might be wrong but it seems
to me that whatever happens there is likely to be an OOo Apache project and
if there isn't, there is high risk of something much more damaging. You and
others might see it differently. That's politics.


 and even better to preemptively point a finger to the group that
 has been working very hard to get that stick out of the proverbial mud it
 was in, is - how to I put that nicely - objectionable...

 Norbert

 PS: when I use 'you' above, I don't mean necessarily _you_ personally, but
 _you_ as in the group that promote this move.


I'm not particularly promoting the move, I think that it is probably
inevitable and given that this is beyond my control what is the best that
can be done to keep a strong FOSS office product. To me that and such a
products support of odf is the most important consideration. Others might
have different priorities.

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[steering-discuss] Re: TDF/LO, what is the art of the possible?

2011-06-05 Thread Ian Lynch
On 5 June 2011 17:31, Sam Ruby ru...@intertwingly.net wrote:

 2011/6/5 André Schnabel andre.schna...@gmx.net:
 
  In your questionary, the questions to me seem to be of two kinds:
 
  1) questions that are targeted to individuals actions (sign Apache CLA,
  contribute code to Apache as well as to TDF ...)
 
  2) fundamental questions on TDF (join Apache and consolidate there,
 choose a
  name for the product ...)

 The ASF is not a consortium.  There is no mechanism for a foundation
 to participate as an entity, only individuals.


I think this is a very important point. It means TDF has to keep its clear
and separate identity if there is to be a project supporting a copyleft
licensed version of the code. The ASF OOo code is simply a resource to be
taken  and given a purpose that TDF members believe in. TDF members have the
option of contributing to that code but they don't have to.

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Re: RE : Re: [tdf-discuss] RE: Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

2011-06-05 Thread Ian Lynch
, just more straight forwardly, with a much more polish PR spin
 on
 it.

 So if you had objection to contribute to Oracle under these terms you
 should
 be just as reluctant to contribute anything under the Apache License.


I'll let the Apache people reply to that as they are much better qualified
to do so than I am.

Norbert

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Re: [tdf-discuss] RE: Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

2011-06-05 Thread Ian Lynch
On 5 June 2011 10:04, e-letter inp...@gmail.com wrote:

 DF programmers should join the Apache OO committee merely to be aware
 of activities in this product. LO should remain separate as a full GPL
 product. Presumably, if DF members become aware of feature X becoming
 imminent in apache OO, they can make a proposal for a similar feature
 to be copied/improved in LO. The analogy is opera introducing tabbed
 web pages in a browser and firefox later introducing the same
 function.

 More separately developed ODF compliant products in the market is a
 good result, just like there are numerous gnu/linux distributions for
 users to choose. The proliferation of many ODF products gives powerful
 confidence to users that if apache OO (any other ODF compliant
 product( disappears, the user can switch to using LO. It should be
 remembered that this cannot occur with m$o and this is the single most
 dominant benefit of numerous ODF programs to the user. It is the
 killer reason to use LO.

 In summary, please do not merge apache OO (or any non-(L)GPL) code with LO.


I can see the logic in this argument but also think of the cost. It means
that there is going to be masses of duplication of effort in a scenario
where development resources are at a premium. For me a better practical
outcome would be for the main development effort for core code to be done on
OOo at ASF. It might be that there is never a product released, simply
develop components useful and save all the release and distribution
resource, putting it into development. LO and other projects build their
products on those components with as many extensions, improvements etc as
they want under their chosen license.

So whether or not this is achievable with eg LO will depend on whether the
LO steering committee do or do not agree to re-use OOo code. If they don't
there will be at least two diverging forks. Both might flourish, one or both
might die. Only time will tell. My perception is that there is less risk to
the goal of having a free and open document format through cooperation and
sharing and to me that goal is more important than any of the particular
license flavours of OOo. If it was a perfect world I would favour the GPL
for all but it isn't a perfect world.

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

2011-06-05 Thread Ian Lynch
On 5 June 2011 12:33, Cor Nouws oo...@nouenoff.nl wrote:

 Marc Paré wrote (05-06-11 12:37)

  Ahem .., or we could just ignore our ASF lurkers, keep working on our
 great product
 [...]


 ;-)  True there's a lot to do. But I appreciate the interest of the ASF
 people. They are interested in our views and processes and do answer
 questions we have.


Sure, let's listen and learn and make informed decisions here not just react
to immediate emotion.  In the end if it ends up that there is no way to
resolve differences we end up with separate diverging code bases which might
be better than no fully odf compliant reference products at all, but let's
at least consider the alternatives. You never know, it might actually help
accelerate the great product's development and reach.

-- 
  - Cor
  - http://nl.libreoffice.org



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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

2011-06-05 Thread Ian Lynch
On 5 June 2011 14:10, todd rme toddrme2...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Sun, Jun 5, 2011 at 12:48 PM, Sam Ruby ru...@apache.org wrote:
  I will be totally transparent as to what my preference however is.  It
  is my fond hope that all of the participants will identify subsections
  of the code that they are willing to share the burden of maintenance
  with the larger community.  Direct participation in the development of
  that pool ensures that you can harvest that code back quickly and
  easily as there is no need to merge it with other changes that you
  held back.  Furthermore the extension points you need for your value
  add will be in the base.

 The problem is that IBM hasn't done this, even with a copyleft license
 that is supposed to encourage this sort of thing.  They have
 contributed the absolute minimum necessary to comply with the license
 terms.  Now the license terms are even looser, people seem to think
 that IBM will continue to contributed the absolute minimum necessary
 to comply with the license terms.  But now the license doesn't require
 that they contribute contribute anything, so people here seem to
 expect that they won't contribute anything.

  Part of this vision is also that participants don't block one another.
   If IBM, for example, has a proprietary value add they should not be
  able to block somebody else from contributing substantially similar
  functionality to the ASF under a more liberal license.  Similarly, if
  LO has some CopyLeft value add, they should not be able to block
  others from contributing substantially similar functionality to the
  ASF under a more liberal license.
 
  Again, fully symmetrical.

 I don't think you mean the same thing when you say symmetric as the
 people here mean.  As far as I can see, you are talking about the
 ability to use the code being symmetrical, while the LibreOffice
 people are talking about the contribution to the software being
 symmetrical.  You seem to be saying that Apache is symmetric because
 if you use the software, you have to let others use it too.  But what
 the LibreOffice people here are expecting is that if you make
 improvements to the project, you have to let others make use of those
 improvements as well.

 Your talk about the use being symmetric is not going to convince
 people because that isn't what their complaint is about.

 They are fundamentally different and contradictory philosophies.  Just
 telling people that it fits well with your philosophy, which is
 essentially what you are doing, doesn't help when they disagree with
 your philosophy.  You need to either convince them that your
 philosophy is better than theirs, or you need to convince them it fits
 with their philosophy.


Hi Todd,

There is a third option. That is that something you believe in needs
something else you don't believe in in order to be achieved.  It leaves a
dilemma. Some people switched a stance of anti-nuclear power because now
they believe it's better than CO2 emissions. It's not that they are suddenly
pro-nuclear. My position is that an open ODF file format ubiquitously
proliferated is the top prize. If that means using some licenses that are
less than ideal from a philosophy point of view then so be it. The ultimate
prize is too valuable to risk. I don't expect all copylefters to agree
with me but I think it is a legitimate position that needs consideration.



 -Todd

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

2011-06-05 Thread Ian Lynch
On 5 June 2011 17:15, Sam Ruby ru...@apache.org wrote:

 On Sun, Jun 5, 2011 at 12:03 PM, Simon Phipps si...@webmink.com wrote:
 
  So back to the constructive point: what are the best, most uniting
 proposals we can come up with for ASF and LibreOffice to co-operate?

 I've outlined two here:

 http://www.mail-archive.com/discuss@documentfoundation.org/msg06542.html

 I will also note that these options are not mutually exclusive.  There
 could be a small core of close cooperation and a large amount of code
 which could be the basis for the relicensing aspirations that I have
 heard expressed numereous times on this list.


What would be interesting to know is how many of the core individual
developers working on LO that provide say 80% of the development resource
would be willing to work on code that would be under the AL?  If they are
doing it on their employer's time would the employer agree?  This would give
a better idea of how much scope there was for common code development. It
might be too early to expect to know this - some might want more time to
make up their minds and of course developers can come and go.  It just seems
to me that without this information we are speculating on things that are
indeterminate.

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Re: [tdf-discuss] RE: Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

2011-06-04 Thread Ian Lynch
On 4 June 2011 16:47, Zaphod Feeblejocks zapho...@gmail.com wrote:

 Is it possible to allow Oracle to donate to Apache and then for TDF to go
 to
 Apache and say Please let us have that?


It's a good question. I suspect not now - OOo is not yet even accepted into
the incubator at Apache. Depends on what Oracle lawyers built into any
conditions. It could be possible later down the line but I doubt it would be
very sensible for someone at Apache to broadcast that intention in earshot
of oracle ;-)

Oracle are code-dumping because the community left them standing alone.
 Oracle are acting as generous benefactors but may end up splitting the OS
 community over this one.  We do not need two near-identical office suites.
 The duplication in effort is not worth it.


That is why we need to see if it is possible to cooperate such that those
with a philosphical aversion to contributing to the Apache licensed code
don't have to yet still achieve some coherence in the code base itself. It
seems inevitable that there will be a copyleft product overseen by TDF and
an ASF licensed product. Question is whether we can cooperate effectively
enough to keep the code mostly common. Honest answer is I'm not sure but I
don't see any alternative.

The option of LibO becoming a customised build of Apache OO, where we take
 from them and add our own things becomes a maintenance nightmare.  LibO 3.4
 already has enough clear differences from OOo 3.4 that make the idea of
 moving code modules back and forth difficult.  There will be a lot of
 re-engineering simply to keep things working and much potential to
 introduce
 bugs.


So life is complicated ;-)


 From a marketing point of view, the appearance of yet another OpenOffice
 is
 not helpful.  We now have OpenOffice.org, Star Office, Oracle Open Office,
 BrOffice, Go-oo, Apache OpenOffice, IBM Symphony, NeoOffice, Euro Office
 and, of course, LibreOffice.


Some would say that was a benefit of open source - at least they all are
100% odf compliant.


  At least when everything else was a build of
 OOo with some addons, it could be understood.  When TDF was set up, it was
 a
 case of everything else being a build of LibO with addons, plus
 OpenOffice.org - and we hoped either Oracle would code-dump in our
 direction, or just go away.

 When TDF was set up, there was an invitation to Oracle to take part.  They
 declined.  This invitation should be passed on to Apache.  They don't need
 the hassle of maintaining a parallel project - especially one that the
 wider
 community has dropped.


I suppose that it might be possible to persuade Apache to just allow the
code to die and carry on from the LO code base - probably that loses IBM
(some will say that is a good thing) - but I can't really see that happening
in the short term because IBM and others will support that code and Apache
has no remit to deny one project over another.


 ZF

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Re: [tdf-discuss] RE: Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

2011-06-04 Thread Ian Lynch
On 4 June 2011 17:29, Gianluca Turconi pub...@letturefantastiche.comwrote:

 In data 04 giugno 2011 alle ore 17:59:04, Ian Lynch ianrly...@gmail.com
 ha scritto:


  That is why we need to see if it is possible to cooperate such that those
 with a philosphical aversion to contributing to the Apache licensed code
 don't have to yet still achieve some coherence in the code base itself. It
 seems inevitable that there will be a copyleft product overseen by TDF and
 an ASF licensed product.


 Is it sure there will be a *product*?


I think IBM need it for symphony so on those grounds alone I'd say there
will be code licensed so that it can be used in that product as a minimum.


 That's rather important, because who uses the Apache license is usually
 interested in having a *project* that is a rather different beast. ;-)


Agreed, the IBM proprietary product would be a different beast from LO. But
let's face it there are already many OOo variants out there. I don't think
that changes that much. I think Michael's point about which code
contributions are effectively blocked to which developers is the more
difficult one. Personally I know this is a mess  but making it less of a
mess through cooperation seems a better route than trying to achieve
something unachievable.
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Re: RE : Re: [tdf-discuss] RE: Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

2011-06-04 Thread Ian Lynch
On 4 June 2011 17:33, Charles-H. Schulz 
charles.sch...@documentfoundation.org wrote:

 Gianluca, Allen,

 My doubt comes from the article in the Register and the Groklaw analysis.
 Allen confirmed my suspicions. I understand, then, that contributing
 anything now to openoffice means to contribute it to Oracle.


Don't you think that is a bit over-paranoid? I mean Oracle is on a get out
strategy. If OOo was so valuable how come they didn't actually sell it off
to someone like IBM for real dollars? To a corporate something has value if
they see potential to make money out of it and neither Sun nor Oracle really
did. Ok, Oracle will still own the copyright but in effect the Apache
license means its pretty much a token.  I should think there is probably
broader commercial or legal reason for Oracle to hold on to the copyright
such as tax relief or just in case it *might* somehow become valuable.

Best,

 charles.

 Le 4 juin 2011, 6:26 PM, Gianluca Turconi pub...@letturefantastiche.com
 a
 écrit :

 In data 04 giugno 2011 alle ore 18:14:16, Allen Pulsifer 
 pulsi...@openoffice.org ha scritto:

  1. Oracle has granted the Apache Software Foundation a license to
 distribute  the OpenOffice co...
 Is it sure is a license? In Apache list were talking about tax deductions
 for a *donation*.

 Are we talking about a *future* and only *possible* donation? Well, if so,
 this seems strange. :)

 I would have called it vaporware, but I respect Apache too much to think
 so.

 Regards, Gianluca -- Lettura gratuita o acquisto di libri e racconti di
 fantascienza, fantasy, h...

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Re: RE : Re: [tdf-discuss] RE: Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

2011-06-04 Thread Ian Lynch
On 4 June 2011 18:54, Eduardo Alexandre eduardog...@gmail.com wrote:

 2011/6/4 Ian Lynch ianrly...@gmail.com

  On 4 June 2011 17:33, Charles-H. Schulz 
  charles.sch...@documentfoundation.org wrote:
 
   Gianluca, Allen,
  
   My doubt comes from the article in the Register and the Groklaw
 analysis.
   Allen confirmed my suspicions. I understand, then, that contributing
   anything now to openoffice means to contribute it to Oracle.
  
 
  Don't you think that is a bit over-paranoid? I mean Oracle is on a get
 out
  strategy. If OOo was so valuable how come they didn't actually sell it
 off
  to someone like IBM for real dollars?
 

 they did best:
 Are trying to recruit workers volunteers at no cost.


That doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Well it would if Oracle had some
business model based on some control over a proprietary strain of OOo but I
just don't see that. IBM yes with Symphony but I don't believe Oracle knows
how to market office productivity tools.  In any case they could just use
LibreO if that was all they wanted.

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Oracle contributes OOo Code to Apache Software Foundation'sIncubator

2011-06-03 Thread Ian Lynch
I just signed up as a committer on the Apache incubator this morning. Why?

Am I against LO and TDF - no, at heart I'm a copyleft person, however, there
are also practical realities to consider too sometimes. What is the worst
case? OOo code and trademark go with Apache and then little is done. LO and
TDF can carry on business as usual. Best case scenario (depending on what
you view as good or bad :-) ) IBM and others put in engineering effort and
the OOo code base improves. TDF take and improve that code and release it
with a copyleft license. TDF engineers cooperate with OOo engineers to
ensure that as far as possible both sets of code remain manageable. Ok,
there is a threat that developers from the TDF camp migrate to the OOo camp.
But really there is not much choice than to take that risk. It will depend
on how many really want only to work on copyleft code.

The not possible scenario which we might have liked better is Oracle donate
everything to TDF - but they didn't and they won't so it's a case of if my
aunt had balls she would be my uncle. She hasn't so she isn't.  :-)

One thing that is very clear is that if TDF had not been formed Oracle would
not transferred things to Apache, at least not this soon. So brilliant you
guys, you took a risk and it has at least mostly worked if not perfectly.
 Better now to look for the opportunities rather than the threats when
really there is not much that can be done about them. Pack out the
committers list on Apache and make sure you have a say in the governance of
OOo as well as TDF and LO.

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Paid developers

2011-05-15 Thread Ian Lynch
On 15 May 2011 06:35, Jonathan Aquilina eagles051...@gmail.com wrote:

 On 15/05/2011 03:58, Marc Paré wrote:

 Hi Ian

 Le 2011-05-14 18:14, Ian Lynch a écrit :

  Totally agree with this. OOo had some severe problems in the early days
 simply because it was not easy to install across hundreds of machines on
 a
 network. All schools tend to be organised on networks so installations
 will
 be hundreds of a machines at a time which is good and a real incentive to
 make it easy to maintain. Not sure of the situation now. Could it be
 improved?


 I am on the dev list and I don't think that any devs have shown interest
 in this. Plus the fact that there are few devs who would have access to a
 network. We need to provided committed devs to network labs to test fully
 test out network installations and updates.

 I have 4 linux boxes and 2 windows boxes at home. I may turn my house into
 a server-run house this summer and test out network installation.

 Cheers

 Marc


  I can help as well I have one windows desktop another drive on same
 desktop with linux a linux server, another windows laptop linux netbook and
 to macbooks


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Not sure about in USA/Canada but here in the UK nearly all schools will be
on Active Directory Windows networks so that would be the thing to ensure
was easy to manage.  some will use Ghost or similar imaging tools for local
discs so its important to ensure LO works well in these different scenarios.
I haven't been involved with that side of things for some time so it might
be every thing is fully worked out in that respect now.


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Paid developers

2011-05-15 Thread Ian Lynch
On 15 May 2011 17:47, Marc Paré m...@marcpare.com wrote:

 Hi Johnathan and Ian

 Thanks Johnathan for your offer of help. I believe this is the kind of help
 we would need. We could have a network of testers who could test the server
 implementation of LibreOffice and report back to the devs. I still think
 that we should also have a corporate LibreOffice lab where dedicated devs
 would pre-test suites. What better place to have it than official
 TDF/LibreOffice head office facilities?

 Le 2011-05-15 09:28, Ian Lynch a écrit :




 Not sure about in USA/Canada but here in the UK nearly all schools will be
 on Active Directory Windows networks so that would be the thing to ensure
 was easy to manage.  some will use Ghost or similar imaging tools for
 local
 discs so its important to ensure LO works well in these different
 scenarios.
 I haven't been involved with that side of things for some time so it might
 be every thing is fully worked out in that respect now.



 Then I guess it would be a question of listing the possible networks and
 hoping to have enough individuals testing different network setups.
 Logically, the largest 2 would be of most importance, one of them being the
 Active Directory Windows network.

 Strategically speaking, we would want to include the network where we would
 hope to get the largest adoption of the suite in education, if this is the
 area we are most concerned with.

 Just for my information, is the Active Directory expensive to install? I
 would imagine that it is not free.


Active Directory is part of the Windows Server management software. It
determines a whole range of settings such as permissions for accounts, who
can access what software etc. It is complex and differently configured in
different schools.


 In my region of Canada, Novell still dominates our educational server
 marketshare, although, Linux has become more and more a viable option. I
 have been off on sick leave for a year, but at my last meetings, moving to
 the Linux platform was taken seriously. Novell was/is pushing more its Linux
 solutions to school districts, which by default, would include LibreOffice
 the official office suite of choice.


In the UK Novel and Linux servers for files are a tiny minority. Linux
servers are used for proxies, web, firewalls etc but not much for file
serving because of the complexity of Windows software used across schools
and the technician knowledge base in Active Directory.



 Cheers

 Marc



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Re: [tdf-discuss] German Foreign Office is dropping only open source software policy

2011-05-14 Thread Ian Lynch

  Also the guidance was poor and the apps did not get updated for years. So
 the endusers in the diplomatic services
 got displeased more and more, but the responsible persons in
 the administration choose the wrong way out.
 This is the short version, you can read a bit more at the H :

 http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/German-Foreign-Office-explains-open-source-elimination-1241804.html


All this really highlights is the danger of government lock-in to single
commercial interests.

The snag with an all-encompassing monopoly is that if it goes wrong and it's
the established way, people will say oh that is just the way it is with
technology. If it goes wrong after a change from the established system
they say We need the established system. National education systems should
be teaching the underlying principles of technology and it's commercial
ramifications, particularly at government level. Changing technology is
easy, changing people and their attitudes is not.
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Paid developers

2011-05-14 Thread Ian Lynch
On 14 May 2011 17:56, Marc Paré m...@marcpare.com wrote:

 Hi Ian et al

 Le 2011-05-14 07:29, Ian Lynch a écrit :

 Whilst certification seems a good strategy, what about parental power
 being exerted upon schools? One would imagine that if parents
 (espcialy of low income families) were aware of free software, they
 would implore schools to follow suit.


 How do you get to those parents? Through the schools? ..Wait, isn't it the
 schools that are not ready to change?

 See the problem?


 If we want to get LibreOffice accepted at school level we need to make
 sure that our product has a solid reputation for network install and
 support. Incremental update capability would also have to be part of the
 package.


Totally agree with this. OOo had some severe problems in the early days
simply because it was not easy to install across hundreds of machines on a
network. All schools tend to be organised on networks so installations will
be hundreds of a machines at a time which is good and a real incentive to
make it easy to maintain. Not sure of the situation now. Could it be
improved?


Cheers

 Marc


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Paid Developers

2011-05-13 Thread Ian Lynch
 priority aspect. Then
look for schools/districts/countries that might do a collective donation and
substitute LO for MSO. Then look at  which ones might go for certification
etc. All of that needs people on the ground with time to do it though. We
all have to earn a living ;-)


 Cheers

 Marc



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Re: [tdf-discuss] Two simple writer annoyances

2011-05-02 Thread Ian Lynch
On 1 May 2011 11:22, Sigrid Carrera sigrid.carr...@googlemail.com wrote:

 Hi Alexander,

 On Sun, 01 May 2011 07:16:37 +0200
 Alexander Ostuni folkfr...@gmx.de wrote:

  Yes, it is build to produce Dokuments and because of that I need to
  rotate a picture. I work in a bank. We have restrictions on the
  installed programms. I am not allowed to install any application that
  can rotate pictures.
  I have to create our formulars/documents. Each of them has a barcode. I
  get the barcodes horizontally but need them vertically in the
  formulars/dokuments.
  In MS word I can rotate them, in LO (wich is allowed in our bank and
  also the software we shall use over Word) not, so I can't use LO but
  have to use Word.



 If you have LibO on your computer, why don't you use then Draw to rotate
 the barcode? Sure, it is more convenient to have that feature in Writer, but
 Draw is the specialised component for drawings and it has a lot more
 functions and capabilities, that you could ever built into a text processing
 component.


Good point. I'm probably just out of the habit of using Draw because I find
Inkscape better for me in many ways.  On the other hand, being able to right
click on an image and rotate it situ is a bit more elegant than having to
OLE to Draw just for a simple change in position, size or orientation.
Personally I think you should be able to adjust size and position in situ
and just go to Draw if you need to edit. Just seems better ergonomics. The
case of the barcode shows that going to Draw is probably not intutitive for
most users and that is also quite an important consideration.


 Sigrid

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Two simple writer annoyances

2011-05-01 Thread Ian Lynch
On 1 May 2011 00:05, plino pedl...@gmail.com wrote:

 @Ian

  Over 20 years ago I used Impression Publisher and it could rotate
 graphics

 You are confusing programs: a Word Processor (such as LibreOffice Writer)
 is
 not a Desktop Publishing software.


Impression Publisher was a document processor. It was perfectly possible to
write a simple letter or publish a magazine with it. Mostly the reasons for
the separation of WP and DTP were limitations of the technologies that made
DTP much more expensive because it was graphically based whereas WP was
character based. That was 30 years ago, everything is graphically based now
so no need for a distinction. There really should be no need to make what is
an artificial distinction these days. Is this book I published WP or DTP?
http://www.lulu.com/browse/search.php?fListingClass=0fSearch=Tales+from+the+Microcosm.
or
http://www.lulu.com/browse/search.php?fListingClass=0fSearch=International+gradesfSubmitSearch=GoshowingSubPanels=fSort=relevance_desc

I suggest that you use the FLOSS (Free/Libre Open Source Software) Desktop
 Publisher named Scribus


No practical need. In fact Scribus, as far as I know, is at least partly
inspired by Impression. We do use it for a newsletter production but the
fact is it would be simpler to just use Inkscape for that. Really the ideal
application design would be a modular system a bit like Drupal or Firefox
plugins where you installed modules in a framework for basic text
processing,  graphics handling etc as needed. The equivalent of Impression
Publisher these days would be just a Publisher that could be configured in
a modular way to do text editing, web publishing, WP, DTP etc by adding open
standards compliant modules that communicated in a standard way between each
other but could be implemented independently of each other. Then contributed
modules would be easier to write and easier to maintain or configure in a
devolved way.  If someone modified an element of the modular structure it
could be simply plugged in as a replacement.

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Two simple writer annoyances

2011-05-01 Thread Ian Lynch
On 1 May 2011 11:30, Krabina Bernhard krab...@kdz.or.at wrote:

  You are confusing programs: a Word Processor (such as LibreOffice
  Writer) is
  not a Desktop Publishing software.

 I don't think anybody is confusing something. Not so long ago with you
 mobile phone you could make phonecalls, nothing else. Things change and I
 think that from a modern word processor you can expect to rotate an image
 (at least 90 and 180 degrees) and to add image captions below and above an
 image.

 just look at what other word processors can do. libo should not fall behind
 that.

  I suggest that you use the FLOSS (Free/Libre Open Source Software)
  Desktop
  Publisher named Scribus

 you are right, for real dtp applications scribus is the correct choice. but
 again, normal users of a word processor expect some simple dtp-functions
 like the ones mentioned. If someone wants to do a simple birthday invitation
 card, he/she should not have to go dtp (or even gimp etc) to do so...


Personally, I'd say GIMP is the wrong tool to design a birthday card. Use
Draw of Inkscape for design graphics and GIMP for editing photographs and
scans.  :-)


 regards,
 Bernhard

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Two simple writer annoyances

2011-04-30 Thread Ian Lynch
On 30 April 2011 14:03, Fernand Vanrie s...@pmgroup.be wrote:

 Ian ,
 No , we can not rotate a picture in LO , but LO is not our favorite
 application to handle our pictures and graphics. LO is build to produce
 documents, pictures are taken by camera and for correcting and rotating this
 pictures we can uses hundreds off different and specialised free and open)
 Applications.


But you could say you could prepare text in a text editor and just import it
so no need for text tools. All I was pointing out was that I used a document
processor over 20 years ago that could rotate, pan, scale, crop graphics etc
in situation. All of those things are useful to be able to do without having
to go back to a different application. Granted, it's not a big issue for me,
just an observation.

BTW: use the wrap and contours to let  flow text around irregular shaped
 objects in LO


But not in 2 meg of RAM and a 30 MHz processor :-)



 Greetz

 Fernand


  On 29 April 2011 07:28, Krabina Bernhardkrab...@kdz.or.at  wrote:

  Hi,

 I think there are two annoyances in writer that should not be that hard
 to
 fix. I hope someone can fix these:

 1. Why can't writer have image descriptions ABOVE the image as well? It
 can
 do it with tables, but with images, image captions have to be below the
 image...

 2. Why can't writer have the possibility to rotate an image...

  Over 20 years ago I used Impression Publisher and it could rotate
 graphics
 and IIRC flow text around irregular shaped objects. And that was on a
 computer with 2 meg of RAM, no hard drive and basically the same ARM
 processor as a modern day Smartphone but running at 30 MHz. It could be
 argued that few people need these or they are more appropriate to a DTP
 program? I use Inkscape and GIMP now for most image preparation, then
 import
 the final product into Writer if it needs to go into a WP. More often than
 not though it goes straight onto a web page.


  thanx and keep up the good work!

 regards,
 Berhard


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Two simple writer annoyances

2011-04-29 Thread Ian Lynch
On 29 April 2011 07:28, Krabina Bernhard krab...@kdz.or.at wrote:

 Hi,

 I think there are two annoyances in writer that should not be that hard to
 fix. I hope someone can fix these:

 1. Why can't writer have image descriptions ABOVE the image as well? It can
 do it with tables, but with images, image captions have to be below the
 image...

 2. Why can't writer have the possibility to rotate an image...


Over 20 years ago I used Impression Publisher and it could rotate graphics
and IIRC flow text around irregular shaped objects. And that was on a
computer with 2 meg of RAM, no hard drive and basically the same ARM
processor as a modern day Smartphone but running at 30 MHz. It could be
argued that few people need these or they are more appropriate to a DTP
program? I use Inkscape and GIMP now for most image preparation, then import
the final product into Writer if it needs to go into a WP. More often than
not though it goes straight onto a web page.


 thanx and keep up the good work!

 regards,
 Berhard


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

2011-04-29 Thread Ian Lynch
On 29 April 2011 16:33, e-letter inp...@gmail.com wrote:

 As I said, I'm sure Bill Gates said leave those toy phones to Nokia, RIM
 and
 Apple. Google seem to have been smarter. As mobile and web technologies
 take
 over I can see much harder times ahead for anyone dependent on local
 dependencies.
 

 Those reliant of distant web servers without no knowledge of data
 security employed by service providers are being naive.


So do you worry about your electricity generation and have a backup
generator at home just in case? Most people are not going to worry about it
if it works for them and is more convenient and competition between
suppliers will ensure it is.

At least
 retrieved data onto a local hard disk drive allows data to be in more
 tangible control.


And IBM said there would only be a need for maybe 4 computers in the world.
Look at the trends. Apple just overtook MS in sales and profitability last
quarter. That tells us something about the way things are moving.

Hard drives are looking decidedly dated technologies for individual users -
even my netbook is now all solid state. Mechanical devices will be too
expensive to manufacture, too delicate and consume too much power. The
future is mobile and cloud and will include local storage but probably not
for running office suites like MSO, OOo, LO etc.

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Question about proposing the creation of a new format

2011-04-28 Thread Ian Lynch
On 27 April 2011 21:42, Mark Preston m...@mpreston.demon.co.uk wrote:

 Dear good gods alive no! :eave the HTML to proper HTML IDE tools like
 Eclipse and don't try to be everything in one package.


Hm, you mean like don't bother with OOo/LO because there are plenty of text
editors, separate graphics editors and spreadsheets around. (Certainly
Inkscape makes Draw largely unnecessary) Don't bother with TinyMCE/CKEditor
because there is Dreamweaver and FrontPage (or vice versa).

I wasn't actually suggesting any specific action so no need to jump to
conclusions. All I'm saying is that looking at the way things are going, LO
will either change or become irrelevant. How it would change is something
that needs wider strategic thought but I don't see much evidence of this.
OTOH it could all be happening behind the scenes.

As I said, I'm sure Bill Gates said leave those toy phones to Nokia, RIM and
Apple. Google seem to have been smarter. As mobile and web technologies take
over I can see much harder times ahead for anyone dependent on local
dependencies.

On 26/04/2011 22:48, e-letter wrote:
 I think this is a very interesting issue. We are moving from the dominant
 technologies that were designed to put information on paper to the
dominant
 need of presenting information on screens. With the revolution in digital
 readers this is only going to increase and then what relevance has
document
 formats that are primarily designed to target hard copy output? If odf
does
 not adapt it will become obsolete.


 Seems to suggest that LO should become some sort of html (or any other
 electronic format) editor?

 I am constantly irritated by having to download pdfs, .docs and so on
when
 all I want to do is view the information without cluttering up my
download

 May I suggest to use the 'load url' bar to read documents directly on
 the web? As for pdf documents, evince can open directly from the url
 when activated via the command terminal


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Question about proposing the creation of a new format

2011-04-27 Thread Ian Lynch
On 26 April 2011 22:48, e-letter inp...@gmail.com wrote:

 I think this is a very interesting issue. We are moving from the dominant
 technologies that were designed to put information on paper to the
 dominant
 need of presenting information on screens. With the revolution in digital
 readers this is only going to increase and then what relevance has
 document
 formats that are primarily designed to target hard copy output? If odf
 does
 not adapt it will become obsolete.
 

 Seems to suggest that LO should become some sort of html (or any other
 electronic format) editor?


Its already a sort of XML editor :-)



I am constantly irritated by having to download pdfs, .docs and so on when
all I want to do is view the information without cluttering up my download

 May I suggest to use the 'load url' bar to read documents directly on
 the web? As for pdf documents, evince can open directly from the url
 when activated via the command terminal


There are a number of reasons why this is clumsy. Ok, its a work around but
its not an elegant solution. Most people produce most of these documents
simply because they are locked into a desktop applications mentality and
don't think about what the purpose of the document really is. This isn't
going to change over night but we are clearly in a transition from desktop
being king to at least desktop a lot less important. IMHO, LO needs to be
looking several years ahead because we know how long development can take.
.


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Question about proposing the creation of a new format

2011-04-27 Thread Ian Lynch
 My take on this suggestion is that LibO does what it does well.  Production
 of epub documents is a marginal requirement


I'm sure that is what MSFT thought about Windows in relation to cell phones
and tablets ;-)

, which does not need to be addressed with a built-in function.
  Professionals won't use it, and non-professionals are adequately served by
 the extension I mentioned - I believe there are now several btw.


So the bottom line is that I vote against incorporating epub production into
LibO Writer.Just my 2c

I don't think that was a specific proposal at this point, just that the
entire LO proposition could become marginalised by mobile technologies and
e-publishing in a relatively short space of time.


 //James
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Question about proposing the creation of a new format

2011-04-25 Thread Ian Lynch
On 25 April 2011 10:40, drew d...@baseanswers.com wrote:

 On Mon, 2011-04-25 at 11:17 +0200, CaStarCo wrote:
  2011/4/25 Italo Vignoli italo.vign...@gmail.com
 
   On 04/25/2011 08:59 AM, todd rme wrote:
  
Sounds like latex
  
  
   Apart from discussions on the characteristics of the file format,
 ebooks
   are definitely outside the scope of The Document Foundation. There are
   already several organizations working around ebooks, and taking care of
 the
   related problems.
  

 snip

 
  Wich organizations? I think that if we have to trust that these
  organizations will innovate we are going to wait a very long time. I know
  that I am not a guru and not and expert, but I think that this work is
 not
  impossible.. then, why the actual ebooks are that set of static crap? why
  it's so difficult to make technic books for ebook readers? the usage of
  semantic data is restricted in a very poor set of cases... and the
  standard format EPUB is very Spartan.
 

 snip

  I was writting to the OpenDocument Foundation

 Close - but not quite - this is a list for The Document Foundation.

 The OpenDocument standard is overseen by a different organization, OASIS
 - http://www.oasis-open.org/

   because i thought it was a
  little more than LibreOffice... It's only LibreOffice?

 I hope that it will be eventually.

 Thanks

 Drew Jensen


I think this is a very interesting issue. We are moving from the dominant
technologies that were designed to put information on paper to the dominant
need of presenting information on screens. With the revolution in digital
readers this is only going to increase and then what relevance has document
formats that are primarily designed to target hard copy output? If odf does
not adapt it will become obsolete.

I am constantly irritated by having to download pdfs, .docs and so on when
all I want to do is view the information without cluttering up my download
area with hundreds of files that only ever get glanced at. In most of these
cases simply putting the info in a web page would do and if it really needs
printing, print that page or create a pdf from it. Even if we are not there
yet, most information in the future will never get printed to hard copy and
that is going to be more the case as time goes on. LO and odf have to be
adapt.


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Re: [tdf-discuss] LO OO are not the only competitors of MSOffice... LO could also make a simple office suite that runs in Android iOS

2011-04-08 Thread Ian Lynch
On 8 April 2011 19:06, Jaime R. Garza gar...@gmail.com wrote:

 For Android and iPhone it doesn't make sense to have the whole LO, only
 Clac, Writer  Impress are needed urgently!


Probably only Writer and Calc and an Impress viewer in the first instance.
Snag is Uno. Replacing Uno with a web common platform would be one way to do
it but it would mean you had to have web access to use the apps.

If LO manages to place those three apps for Android, ODF will gain momentum.

 Cheers!


 On Thu, Apr 7, 2011 at 21:01, todd rme toddrme2...@gmail.com wrote:

  On Thu, Apr 7, 2011 at 2:12 AM, Jonathan Aquilina
  eagles051...@gmail.com wrote:
   On Thu, Apr 7, 2011 at 7:36 AM, toki toki.kant...@gmail.com wrote:
  
   On 06/04/2011 14:43, Jonathan Aquilina wrote:
How much of LO would need to be ported since android is linux based
 as
   is?
  
   Basically, it needs to be rewritten in a language that can be compiled
   into Dalvik Bytecode.
  
   The usual language is Java, but at least one C++ compiler that
   accomplishes the same effect exists.
  
   If one c++ compiler already exists then wouldnt it be easy as just
  telling
   the compiler to compile?
 
  Almost certainly not, it most likely needs to be able to support the
  proper Android APIs to work properly.  And that is only to get it
  working as-is, without any reworking of the UI to be better on a
  touch-based device.
 
  -Todd
 
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: European Commitee enter talks with MS licences, Please make your action today against it.

2011-04-07 Thread Ian Lynch
On 6 April 2011 12:54, aqualung xfekdcugj...@mailinator.com wrote:


 Ian Lynch wrote:
 
  On 6 April 2011 04:41, aqualung lt;xfekdcugj...@mailinator.comgt;
 wrote:
 
  Well, how many full-time developers, working 40-hour workweeks, does
  Microsoft Office have... and how many OOo and LibO?
 
  If the answer for MO is, say, 300... and the full-time equivalent for
 OOo
  /
  LibO is 50... then it's pretty much a given that MO will always have a
  bigger feature set and be more bug-free than OOo / LibO.  This is a
  no-brainer!
 
 
  Probably broadly true but not quite so cut and dried.  it will depend on
  competitive pressure, culture urgency, ownership and a range of other
  factors. If it was only about quantity of resource input there would
 never
  be any change.
 
  Ian
 
 
 Well of course, Ian, other things being equal. Competitive pressure?
 Microsoft should be fat and lazy by now, but if Steve Ballmer catches you
 loafing he will kick your @$$ sky-high. Culture urgency, what is that?


Culture, urgency - missed a comma. We used to deal with MS a few years ago.
Their attitude was awful because they thought they were the only option.
Take it or leave it. That did change and probably has changed more as
competitive pressure continues to build. Most large corporates, will have a
lot of applicants for jobs especially in the current climate but that
doesn't stop them being role dominated cultures with all the downsides of
that. Take ARM, rather smaller than Intel but their processor designs are
outselling x86. What made them successful was famously quoted as having no
money and no people ;-)

To be honest I'm not too bothered whether the world and his dog wants to use
LO or MS Office. I now have a choice and my next Linux download will have LO
with it not MSO. We don't use MS products at all here except to test the web
site development and we don't use desktop office products that much and I'd
say ability to migrate to the web and/or mobile technologies is more a
serious consideration at this point in time than obscure features and bugs.

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: European Commitee enter talks with MS licences, Please make your action today against it.

2011-04-06 Thread Ian Lynch
On 6 April 2011 04:41, aqualung xfekdcugj...@mailinator.com wrote:

 Well, how many full-time developers, working 40-hour workweeks, does
 Microsoft Office have... and how many OOo and LibO?

 If the answer for MO is, say, 300... and the full-time equivalent for OOo /
 LibO is 50... then it's pretty much a given that MO will always have a
 bigger feature set and be more bug-free than OOo / LibO.  This is a
 no-brainer!


Probably broadly true but not quite so cut and dried.  it will depend on
competitive pressure, culture urgency, ownership and a range of other
factors. If it was only about quantity of resource input there would never
be any change.




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Re: [tdf-discuss] European Commitee enter talks with MS licences, Please make your action today against it.

2011-04-05 Thread Ian Lynch
The commission is committed to getting value for money and negotiates on
behalf of all the E.U. institutions, agencies and other bodies - 42 in all.
Representing such a large number allows us to drive costs down and we will
drive a hard bargain.

How hard a bargain can they drive when the vendor knows they are not serious
about using anything else and that they are already massively locked-in?

To be fair, they are locked-in and they have to continue business and they
are on stuff that will soon not be supported. I doubt there is much
practical alternative but given the situation they should have a strategy so
that in 3 years time when they agreements come up for renewal they are in a
much stronger position. I think we should be a little more intelligent about
lobbying MEPs. Say we understand the problem but they really need a strategy
to get out of it and we are willing to help. eg Set up an EU funded project
to identify where easy transition is possible and where it is difficult. Set
the budget for this project at 10% of the fees they will pay MS on the
rationale that the possibility of transition will at least lower the costs
at the next negotiation by 10%. If some administrations are easy to migrate
do these even if they have had the licenses paid to demonstrate that you are
serious.  We can provide low cost training and certification to support the
strategy.


2011/4/5 pierre choffardet pierre.choffar...@free.fr

 Le 05/04/2011 09:42, Kürti László a écrit :

  Hi All,

 Sorry for this off topic but this is serious

 http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/print/9215419/EC_enters_talks_with_Microsoft_for_new_licenses?taxonomyName=IT+in+GovernmenttaxonomyId=13

 If this come true than we (LibreOffice an other FLOSS products) will be
 down and out, buried by dust for ever, governments do not need better excuse
 than this.

 Please make your action today:
 blog about, send a mail to your member of EP, tell the local media

 Thx
 Laszlo

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  *April 1, 2011



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Re: [tdf-discuss] European Commitee enter talks with MS licences, Please make your action today against it.

2011-04-05 Thread Ian Lynch
On 5 April 2011 15:56, Mike Hall mike.h...@onepoyle.net wrote:

 Laszlo,
 I worked for perhaps 15 years with various versions of MSO as both a power
 user and as a senior manager with responsibility, inter alia, for MSO
 support. I met all the senior international people at the time, from MS and
 many other suppliers. During that time, whether with short or long
 documents, I personally came across only 2 instances of genuine MSO bugs.

 Since retirement 16 years or so ago, I have been almost exclusively using
 and promoting OOo/LibO. I know what some of the technical advantages are,
 and I appreciate them. However, each time I start a major new activity or
 project, I run into a major deficiency or bug which has typically taken me a
 day or more's work to understand, write bug reports and work out how to get
 round. Most of those bugs are still unfixed. This kind of 'wasted' effort
 simply does not occur with MSO, or at least it didn't to me, nor did I hear
 complaints of that kind from the thousands of end users I was to some degree
 responsible for internationally.

 In my professional opinion and with the maximum regret, I do not believe
 that OOo/LibO has a product offering of adequate quality to be
 cost-effective in a high-cost labour economy. The support costs are just far
 too high. Thus, it is my considered though painful conclusion that the
 majority of IT managers in those economies would correctly judge MSO to be
 the better option. As I said, I wish it were different, but it is not. We
 can lobby and protest as much as we like, but in my opinion there is
 absolutely no chance of extensive corporate or governmental adoption in
 Western economies until the product is of comparable quality to MSO, by
 which I primarily mean an absence of bugs.


I rather think that depends on what the nature of the use is. Here, we use
FOSS exclusively. We are a small business but heavily ICT dependent. I can't
recall any circumstances where a bug in OOo has wasted a lot of time. In
fact mostly we use Google's spreadsheet for sharing and put WP type stuff
directly into web pages but I just published a book and previously a
professional manual using OOo and Inkscape without any significant problems.
I can see that some specialist power users will have more problems
particularly if they are locked into VB and other MSO dependencies and I
would have though that was a much more serious consideration than bugs.


 Mike


 On 05/04/2011 12:37, Kürti László wrote:

 Mike,
 Have you ever tried to work with MS office? Have you ever made a doc
 longer than 10 pages? How many times you had to reedit those MS docs? Just
 about every time you opened it in a different PC.

 Pls don't get me wrong, but MS office works just as OO.o or LibO.
 And this is not the case, but please let yourself off the hook of MS FUDs.
 :)

 Laszlo


 - Original Message -
 From: Mike Hallmike.h...@onepoyle.net
 To: discuss@documentfoundation.org
 Sent: Tuesday, April 5, 2011 1:21:03 PM
 Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] European Commitee enter talks with MS licences,
  Please make your action today against it.

 On 05/04/2011 12:11, Kürti László wrote:

 Even with docx, xlsx format could be read and written by OO.o or LibO (or
 at least a workaround can be find).

 Laslo,
 Don't get me wrong, I entirely agree with all your sentiments.
 Unfortunately, in practice the description of the situation I gave will
 dominate. The quote from your email above seems to confirm that even
 your company has experienced significant end user support issues. I just
 wish it were different.



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Re: [tdf-discuss] OpenOffice.org articles in Linux Format March 2011

2011-02-13 Thread Ian Lynch
On 13 February 2011 18:22, adept techlists - kazar techli...@ade.pt wrote:

 On 2/12/11 2:04 PM, Robert Derman wrote:

 Just so you all know, 4 GB of DDR3 RAM can now be purchased for $36. on
 the internet.  In historical terms, that is indeed dirt cheap.


 and how much would it cost to have that RAM shipped to Ethiopia? and how
 many computers around the globe are still in use that have a max of far less
 ram than 4GB, even less than 1024MB?

  Also a 500 GB hard drive can now be purchased for less than $40., and a
 DVD burner for less than $20.

 Your ISP is in River Falls, Wisconson, U.S.A. The per capita GDP in the
 U.S.A. according to 2010 CIA World Factbook charts was $47,400 USD. (
 https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2004rank.html
 )

 The per capita GDP in that chart for Ethiopia, for example (there are 15
 countries with lower GDPs) is $1,000. Once you take into account the
 rich/poor divide that is rapidly growing wider in all non-socialized
 countries, the vast majority of Ethiopians live on far less than $1,000 per
 year. Visualize what kind of computer they might have, or might have access
 to in an internet cafe even in Addis Ababa. And if you put yourself in the
 skin of someone living in Ethiopia, Zimbabwe ($400 per-cap GDP), Cambodia
 ($2,000), Kenya ($1,600), India ($3,400)  etc ... you'll see that spending
 $36 on RAM and $40 on a HD and $20 on a burner is truly out of reach for
 most of the world population. (and one must have a fairly recent model of
 computer to take advantage of cheap RAM and peripherals, as well)


If you are living on $1 a day, MS Windows is about 2 months pay with no
discretion at the margins. No wonder that software gets copied illegally.
This also demonstrates the myth that this causes the equivalent lost revenue
of $50-$60 for each illegal copy. The fact is that if it was impossible to
copy many of those doing the copying would not afford to buy it so there
would be no additional sales. (I'm not condoning illegal copying of
software, just pointing out some facts about it :-) ) Open Source is
important to inclusion and so is reducing hardware costs as far as possible
and making education and training as low cost and as freely available as
possible.


 kazar


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Re: [tdf-discuss] OpenOffice.org articles in Linux Format March 2011

2011-02-12 Thread Ian Lynch
On 12 February 2011 19:04, Robert Derman robert.der...@pressenter.comwrote:

 Kevin Hunter wrote:

 At 4:09pm -0500 Fri, 11 Feb 2011, Charles Marcus wrote:

 On 2011-02-11 3:35 PM, Kevin Hunter wrote:

 How the quickstarter works is have use gobs of memory effectively
 sitting idle. That doesn't work. Many of us in the computing,
 engineering, physics, and chemical fields *use* our computational
 resources.


 75MB is not 'gobs' - that or we live in very different realities.


 Yes, it is gobs.  If you have 4GB+, perhaps it's not, but not everyone has
 4GB+.  Particularly in non-Western countries.  I have just returned from
 Ethiopia, for example, where owning a computer is rare; for those who do,
 256 MB is common.  I suspect that we *do* live in different realities.

  RAM is extremely cheap these days.


 If $100 bucks is cheap to you, then so be it.  It's not to me, a graduate
 student.

 Just so you all know, 4 GB of DDR3 RAM can now be purchased for $36. on the
 internet.


Yes, but for people in some places you would have to use older more
expensive RAM or the machine can't be upgraded so they would have to buy
another, etc etc.


 In historical terms, that is indeed dirt cheap.


But in historical terms the majority of people in the world haven't been
able to access computer technology. That changes as prices fall and probably
for every $10 fall another million can enter the market. So even small
changes can have a significant effect on large numbers of people.


 Also a 500 GB hard drive can now be purchased for less than $40., and a DVD
 burner for less than $20.  The fact is, a copy of MS Office can well cost
 more than the entire computer system it is used on.


Not if it gets illegally copied. ;-) PS, hard drive space is likely to be
less of an issue than RAM.

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Foundation Fundraising

2011-02-10 Thread Ian Lynch
On 9 February 2011 18:44, toki toki.kant...@gmail.com wrote:

 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1

 On 02/08/2011 04:36 PM, BRM wrote:

  Why resort to deception and Microsoft-esque tactics to promote LO?

 FWIW, it isn't uncommon for 501(c)3 organizations to have a for-profit
 organization operating at an arm's length. Microsoft-esque only if you
 think that a 501(c)(3) organization should pay corporate income tax on
 all the revenue it generates.


And this is very different in the UK. The only companies that are able to
allow donations against tax are registered charities so a foundation set up
as a company limited by guarantee or a CIC will not get tax relief on
donations. They will be able to allow operating expenses against tax which
is why there is no tax to pay if they don't make a profit. It's not
different from any other commercial venture, usually they just don't pay
dividends to shareholders they put that money back into the service the
company was set up to support. If a lot of income is likely to come from
donations, in the longer term an organisation that can claim back the tax
paid is essential but it might be necessary to do something less optimal as
a stepping stone to get there.

Depending upon how much revenue is generated from sources other than
 grants and donations, for the US at least, serious consideration needs
 to be given to establishing a for-profit that operates at an arm's length.


The thing is that company law is different in different countries so in a
multinational project some account has to be taken of that. It seems, for
example, much more expensive to set up a not for profit company in DE
compared to UK and tax exemptions seem easier to get for donations in a
501(c)3 in the USA.  TDF owe it to its community to get the best working
deal that is legal and ethical and that requires understanding of several
options without getting sidetracked into spurious arguments based on half
understandings and irrational fears about competitors' ethics.

jonathon
 - --
 If Bing copied Google, there wouldn't be anything new worth requesting.

 If Bing did not copy Google, there wouldn't be anything relevant worth
 requesting.

   DaveJakeman 20110207 Groklaw.
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Foundation Fundraising

2011-02-08 Thread Ian Lynch
On 8 February 2011 09:18, Jonathan Aquilina eagles051...@gmail.com wrote:

 Is the TDF an NGO. If its based in the EU the organization can possibly get
 a lot of funding from the EU itself.


Yes but probably not by the end of March!

Applying for EU grants is certainly possible and we have expertise in the
field but it is not trivial to either fill in the applications - I'm doing
one at the moment for a project to support certification of OOo/LO - or
manage the projects. There is generally a lead in time of 18 months and
maybe 2 years to run the project itself. On the other hand you can get
300,000 Euros to do it.


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Foundation Fundraising

2011-02-08 Thread Ian Lynch
On 8 February 2011 11:34, Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org
 wrote:

 Hi,

 thanks for your contributions, great to see things moving! :-)

 Well, I think opening an US bank account is problematic at least from the
 time perspective, but maybe also from a legal PoV - our association might
 not be eligible to do so, as we are accredited in Germany and have special
 tax rules applied here.

 Jonathan Aquilina wrote on 2011-02-08 10.18:

  Is the TDF an NGO. If its based in the EU the organization can possibly
 get a lot of funding from the EU itself.


 IIRC, the EU only funds existing entities, i.e. they will only fund us when
 the Foundation itself exists.


That is correct. One avenue would be to create a company limited by
guarantee or Community Interest Company in the UK - costs about 50 Euro and
then use that to raise money to set up the German Foundation after say a
year and just transfer any surplus money. Note that for EU grants you have
to submit accounts so probably you need a years operation to generate those.
So the earlier the better. Of course there are some advantages to having two
sister companies since they could be partners in an EU project. That could
even be a deliberate strategy. You could then get money for study visits and
mobilities between them. Organise a preparatory meeting at one and you have
the potential for people from other countries to get paid by their NA to
attend the meeting. You could even set up a thematic network with funding
for partners to travel meet and discuss things.

Florian
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Mac App Store

2011-01-07 Thread Ian Lynch
2011/1/7 Fabián Rodríguez magic...@member.fsf.org

 On 11-01-06 11:16 PM, Larry Gusaas wrote:
 
  On 2011/01/06 9:57 PM  todd rme wrote:
  I do find it bizarre that people are so up in arms about OOXML but
  seem to have no complaints with Apple's blatant attempts to have total
  control over the software you are allowed to install on your own
  computer.
 
  Apple does not control what software I install on my computer. Quit
  spreading such BS.
 
 
  Larry

 You're right, at least for now. Apple controls its OS and its updates,
 which effectively can control which apps go on your computer (or not).
 IMO, it's only a matter of time before such restrictions happen, just
 like iPhone and iPad (which *for now* are bypassed with Cydia..). For
 all the effort this may take, at some point Apple may well decide to
 remove LibreOffice or break it as part of a security upgrade. I am not
 going into that discussion as even passing the App Store requirements is
 almost guaranteed to fail.

 Back to the initial suggestion of adding LibreOffice to the AppStore,
 just look at NeoOffice's take on it:

 http://trinity.neooffice.org/modules.php?name=Forumsfile=viewtopict=8290start=0postdays=0postorder=aschighlight=

 Not much point in wasting any more time on this (again, IMO).

 Cheers,

 Fabian


To be honest I too have found it really strange that so many FOSS advocates
are Apple advocates. Let's face it if Apple had established the monopoly
that Wintel had it would have been worse. Systems more closed and even all
the hardware would have been locked into Apple. Ok, all big commercial
interests are going to be self-serving but at least let's be consistent with
the attitudes :-)

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Co-working with Moz, etc

2011-01-06 Thread Ian Lynch
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Addons

2011-01-04 Thread Ian Lynch
On 4 January 2011 07:37, Cor Nouws oo...@nouenoff.nl wrote:

 Michael Wheatland wrote (04-01-11 02:59)

 If everyone was as clear and concise as you there would be no
 confusion about any issues.


 No, to me this is an obvious example of someone apparently unable to
 understand,


Hm, has anyone taken the trouble to have say a face to face skype with
Michael?

 working on the Silverstripe site is that they don't understand the CMS


 using silly arguments,


Hardly a silly argument. I for one have no idea and no time (or inclination)
to learn Silverstripe. I can fully understand that issue. I do know Drupal
and worked with it every day for the last 5 years. In fact I'd never heard
of Silverstripe until very recently. I know of many Drupal installations I
don't know of any Silverstripe installations. The very fact that there seems
to be a deficit of help on the Silverstripe work and a more active Drupal
development is evidence that the argument isn't silly even if you don't like
it.

 Over the coming couple of weeks, I will put together a proposal for
 the Steering Committee to consider an implementation plan.


 and only interested in his own plan.


That I think is disingenuous. The last thing TDF can afford is to alienate
people who are clearly very committed to putting their own resource into
development. Even if you think passion and commitment to Drupal is
misguided, there are better ways of communicating with people than public
personal attacks on mailing lists. This is worryingly reminiscent of some of
the OpenOffice.org spats several years ago. It would have been a lot better
if the original public post had been a verbal exchange by phone. Mailing
lists are notoriously bad for this sort of discussion.

Cor

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Addons (was: Re: Do not support writing to OOXML format)

2011-01-04 Thread Ian Lynch

 Silverstripe site is that they don't understand the CMS and are not really
 interested in learning it.
 It is true, once you use Drupal, you will never install another CMS.


That seems to me an important consideration long term. If there is likely to
be more and longer term committed developer resource with Drupal it is the
most logical route and the decision should be how to rather than if.

Over the coming couple of weeks, I will put together a proposal for
 the Steering Committee to consider an implementation plan.

 Again,
 Thanks for clarifying this point.

 Michael Wheatland

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: (Fwd) The French Gov. loves Microsoft

2011-01-03 Thread Ian Lynch
On 3 January 2011 15:56, Alexander Thurgood alex.thurg...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hi,

 Le 03/01/11 12:37, Zaphod Feeblejocks a écrit :

 
  I guess if you want to buy an iPad in France, now is a good time to do
 it!
 

 An iPad or any other mobile OS based device,


ipad is hardly an OS based device. Well stretching the imagination we can
trace the OS back to BSD but that could be said of other proprietary unix
OSs.


 including your telephone
 :-) (the tax, if finally passed into law, should also affect
 WindowsMobile phones) - the project targets embedded OSes not designed
 to run on normal PC hardware. Obviously, the definition retained at
 present is a nonsense in itself and shows just what a poor understanding
 French MPs have of operating systems and IT in general (or rather what
 they have been cleverly misled to understand).

 The current French government needs money, big time - the
 mobile/embedded market is still fairly bouyant - what better way to
 generate a revenue stream to fill the depleted coffers ? ;-)


I can think of several better ways. Raise the tax rate on proprietary
software to encourage migration to open source. Overall that would save
money as well as raise revenue. ;-) Once you have everyone shifted to FOSS
you can tax that and effectively transfer the tax that was being paid to
proprietary software producers to the government. That then costs no-one
except the likes of MS who have plenty of cash and are largely outside the
French economy in any case.


 Alex


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2011-01-03 Thread Ian Lynch
On 3 January 2011 15:14, Italo Vignoli italo.vign...@gmail.com wrote:

 On 1/3/11 7:38 AM, Johannes A. Bodwing wrote:

  Where can I read it? Is it in the next decade manifesto?


 http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/announce/msg00016.html


  And they are not equal. That's my problem with it at the moment.
 I don't really understand how this democratic-meritocratic principle
 works. And what you explain below with Microsoft, for me it is not
 meritocratic or democratic that's an ethical aspect.


 Democracy means that everyone has the potential to contribute,


Democracy simply means representation of the people (community). Even
established democracies don't have referendums on every issue. Party
political systems mean that there are real limits to what any individual can
contribute. I can't go and contribute directly to new legislation other than
by saying what I think and hope it will influence someone. That is not
really much different from a FOSS project.


 meritocracy means that contribution are judged by the community for their
 value, continuity, quality, etcetera.


Which is what voters do at election time with the records and manifestos of
politicians in a democracy. Of course meritocracy often become a political
argument - even with software.


 There are some principles though, and one of them is that contributions
 have to be constructive (FOR) and not destructive (AGAINST).


Compare with In the national interest


 Asking to avoid writing support for OOXML in order to bash Microsoft is
 meaningless.


Not meaningless but perhaps political rather than rational - but hey life is
a peculiar mixture of rational and political perspectives.


 Educating users about ethics related to Microsoft, OOXML and open standards
 is not a task for export filters.


In general I think this polarisation of meritocracy/democracy in FOSS is a
myth. FOSS happens because there is freedom of speech which is an
important tenant in any democracy. In the end some people make decisions and
if they get them badly wrong enough often enough the demos votes with its
feet. That is exactly what happened with OOo and LO. So while on this issue
I'm in favour of writing OOXML after hearing the arguments, these
discussions are important even though someone is going to be disappointed.
Let's just accept that rather than muddying the waters with the democracy
meritocracy myths.


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Co-working with Moz, etc (was:Do not support writing to OOXML format)

2011-01-02 Thread Ian Lynch
On 1 January 2011 18:43, Jonathan Aquilina eagles051...@gmail.com wrote:

 Whats really held OOo and will hold LO back is the lack of an equivalent
 program such as outlook.



Why waste time and effort on this when there are other perfectly valid
alternatives? Evolution, Thunderbird for open source and Gmail on the web.
Web based mail is now mature and much easier to manage for anyone that moves
about. Gmail on an Android phone seems to me a far better solution than
being tied to the desktop. Effort going into new apps like a mail client
(even modifying and maintaining existing code) would be much better placed
in getting a mobile version of LO for smarphones or a web version. If not
the whole project could eventually become irrelevant.

There are one of three ways it can be done.

 1) fork something like evolution which has all that done and integrate it
 into the LO suite

 2) or install software that already exists in the open source arena.

 the problem with 2 is that it will greatly increase the download size,
 which
 would pose issues for people with slow bandwidth.

 On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 6:07 PM, Cia Watson ciama...@my180.net wrote:

  On Sat, 01 Jan 2011 12:16:06 -
  Zaphod Feeblejocks zapho...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 The Go-oo homepage also says Going forward, the Go-oo project
 will be discontinued in favor of LibreOffice. Does that mean
 that LibreOffice is driven by Novell too?
 
   Ways to resolve this include:
   - Open (and easy to find) statistics on the numbers of current
   developers on LibO and their background.
   - More clear input from Google, etc., towards easy integration with
   Google Docs (in the way that the MSO integration with the web-based
   version of MSO will become something users expect).
   - Joint-branding with Thunderbird, Scribus, etc. There have been many
   posts on the OOo lists over the years asking do you do a calendar?
   or Do you have a Publisher replacement.  No, we don't - but clearly
   promoting other open source projects and working with them to make
   life easy for people coming away from MSO helps all people.
 
  Since this looks a little like a wish-list, I thought I'd add mine. (Or
  am I engaging in wishful thinking? :-) )
 
  I think it would be nice to be able to open AbiWord documents (.abw)
  that render properly. LibO (and OO) Writer will open the file, but
  there's a lot of coding visible, I'm guessing it's xml code.  I can
  open odt files just fine in AbiWord (as well as doc and docx files)
  and they render properly; but the reverse isn't true. Therefore, since I
  have some documents already in abw format, I generally stick with
  AbiWord for my few word-processing needs.
 
  Happy New Year to all!
 
  Cia W
 
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2011-01-01 Thread Ian Lynch
On 31 December 2010 17:04, Cor Nouws oo...@nouenoff.nl wrote:

 Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote (31-12-10 13:14)

  On 31/12/10 09:30, Jonathan Aquilina wrote:

 FYI for those that aren't aware. Microsoft office 2010 supports ODF
 format for opening and saving documents now.


 So does 2007 SP2 as well. However in 2007 the opening of ods documents
 has deliberately broken formulaedon't know whether they've fixed
 this in 2010, or whether they even want to fix it...


 (No idea if someone already answered this somewhere else in this thread, so
 here I go ;-) )

 MS sticks (anyway up until now) with the ISO-certified version of ODF.
 In the mean time ODF evolves.
 Formulae support is close to final, and for months already, there is very
 little chance that there will be changes in the specs.
 Even more: the formulae definitions in ODF have to a high level been based
 on MS-implementations of formulae.
 So MS could have made a choice to to implement close to final ODF versions
 already.
 For OOo and others, it is completely logic and natural to offer support for
 close-to-final ODF specifications already. ODF is the native format plus
 that the open source suites develop so much faster, that it would be
 impractical not to implement them.


Considering the opportunity cost of developing export filters against other
development priorities is certainly a valid consideration. Of course if it
is work sponsored by someone who would not spend it on anything else that
means there is no effective opportunity cost.

Best,
 Cor

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Do not support writing to OOXML format

2011-01-01 Thread Ian Lynch


 Office on-the-web only saves in docx.  Office 2013/4 will quite possibly
 drop .doc export,
 just as Word 6/95 export was dropped from Word 2003 - after a failed
 attempt to drop it
 from 2000.  MS can do this because they are the market leader.  To fail to
 offer even
 rudimentary docx export would damage LibO's market penetration.

 my thoughts anyway


Another consideration is that if we ignore docx until MS do drop .doc which
is long term inevitable, we could end  up playing catch up in order to get
filter that are good enough to be credible.  Better to start now and
incrementally improve them over time.

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Do not support writing to OOXML format

2010-12-31 Thread Ian Lynch
On 31 December 2010 11:35, Gordon Burgess-Parker gbpli...@gmail.com wrote:

 On 31/12/10 10:32, M. Fioretti wrote:


 wrong. Mine (mutt) doesn't for example,


 Then I would plonk you immediately. How do you not see that that is TOTALLY
 ARROGANT?
 If I send you an email in plain text and you reply in HTML, because YOU
 want to, that is complete rudeness and intolerance.


It's more likely just that the replier didn't think it was a big deal ;-)

I don't think that most people that send me .docs are arrogant. Ignorant
perhaps. Personally I don't see why there is such a big hang up about HTML
in e-mails since web based mail is now very common and it is an open
standard.


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Do not support writing to OOXML format

2010-12-31 Thread Ian Lynch
On 31 December 2010 10:37, Kevin André hyperquan...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 11:07, Gordon Burgess-Parker gbpli...@gmail.com
 wrote:

  1. It is arrogant to return a document in a format different to that
 which
  was sent to you. (That's why email clients always reply in the same
 format
  in which the original message was received)

 I agree. And users will wonder why they can open a document they
 received, make some simple changes, but are asked for different name
 when saving the file. They will say why can't this program simply
 save my changes?.


You can get away with being arrogant when you have 80% of the market.  Most
of the people using a WP have no idea about file formats, they will assume
if it comes in as  it needs to go out as . (Actually a lot will
never even have used save as..) If there is no facility to do this there is
a reasonable chance they will reject the use of the software out of hand.
This isn't about logic to a sophisticated computer user, it is about the
average user who has no technical knowledge and has picked up a WP by trial
and error. MS by luck or judgement have been very good at exploiting
ignorance. School systems don't teach word processing, they teach MS Word.
It's why we need better education and a certification programme for users
that covers stuff like file formats and the principles of WP not just one
product.

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2010-12-31 Thread Ian Lynch
On 30 December 2010 20:19, Gordon Burgess-Parker gbpli...@gmail.com wrote:

 On 30/12/10 17:27, Larry Gusaas wrote:

 I will not support or use LibreOffice
  until it stops helping spread OOXML by enabling writing in this file
 format. There is absolutely no need to write in this proprietary format. To
 do so is contrary to the principle of using ODF and open source formats.

 See the following:

 http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=49t=2493p=169740#p169507
 http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20101219121621828

 Unless this changes I will strongly advocate in the support groups I
 participate the people stay with OpenOffice.org and not switch to
 LibreOffice.


  OOXML will spread anyway because MS Office 2007 and 2010 use this format
 by default. Nothing you can do about it I'm afraid



And if LibO does not support export to the latest versions of MS Office many
governments and businesses will be less likely to adopt it. Overall that
would be bad for odf. Once odf is in majority use yo can start dictating de
facto standards.


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Re: [tdf-discuss] International support

2010-12-14 Thread Ian Lynch
On 14 December 2010 12:49, Karl Morten Ramberg k...@ofs.no wrote:

 Yes I think LibO needs a way of offering intl support and responsetime
 guarantee to attract larger companies.
 And that that can be a way of partially fund the development

 Karl

 Den 14.12.2010 13:32, skrev sophie:

  Hi,
 On 14/12/2010 15:10, Karl Morten Ramberg wrote:

 I don't think this is as easy as that, large organisations requires a
 more firm support scheme. I have worked in Ericson, Nokia and ICL/Fujitsu
 with products and services. It is on that background I raise the question

 You mean that there is no companies able to provide support (1rst, 2nd,
 3rd level) to dedicated floss software like OOo or LibO? Or that it needs to
 be international? I don't get what you mean by more firm support scheme.
 Or you mean something like the consultant list we get on the OOo Bizdev
 project
 http://bizdev.openoffice.org/consultants.html

 Kind regards
 Sophie




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The idea behind Libre Office certification and associated training is to
develop such a support network. It would be possible to include other
aspects if there is demand but starting with certification provides a
specific focus.  We have a meeting in Berlin on the 28th January for anyone
interested.
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: A proposal for effective, volunteer-friendly user support in LibreOffice

2010-11-24 Thread Ian Lynch
On 23 November 2010 18:14, T. J. Brumfield enderand...@gmail.com wrote:

 There are open software stacks with various CMS tools where you can combine
 wiki, blog, forum, and FAQ functionality together. A community site could
 have articles on the front end to help demonstate features, provide
 tutorials, expose new templates and extensions, etc.

 Users can provide comments and questions on the articles as well as post in
 the forums. Duplicate questions are bound to occur in forums. The problem
 with that is retyping the same solutions time and time again. But if there
 is an integrated wiki/knowledgebase in the site, then you can link to the
 solution there.

 My concern is that many users expect help to be present in the application
 itself, and not everyone is willing to go and find answers in a community.
 Could the application itself pull its Help functionality from online
 resources?


That is quite common with Linux applications. Certainly links from the
application help to on-line search of discussions etc should be relatively
easy.

Only draw back I can think of is potentially broken links. One advantage to
linking to say a public editable page would be that if you found the help
unhelpful but then realised why you could document it for others and
eventually the improvements could find their way in to the application help.
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: A proposal for effective, volunteer-friendly user support in LibreOffice

2010-11-23 Thread Ian Lynch
On 23 November 2010 21:25, Andy Brown a...@the-martin-byrd.net wrote:

 On Tue Nov 23 2010 12:36:35 GMT-0800 (PST)  Robert Derman wrote:

  Assuming that it is, I think the primary users manual should focus on
 Writer, with just one chapter on each of the other modules, and a pointer to
 where to download a more extensive manual on each.  Where I disagree with
 most who write in, is that I think that a basic manual like I describe
 *should be in the download package*.  In order to keep it small for that
 reason, it should be in ODF format not PDF, and it should be formatted for
 an 8.5x11 page rather than the usual 5x7 so that it would be practical for
 the user to print out without the horrendous paper waste of the 5x7 format.
  (Remember all printer paper comes in 8.5x11 or similar) Also keeping it to
 100 pages or less will both keep the download size down, and encourage users
 to actually print a hard copy.  (a hard copy is very useful because you can
 read in the manual while using the software) I find help often less than
 helpful simply because it can be difficult to both read how to do a thing
 and simultaneously do it.I recognize that a much longer and more
 detailed manual is required to completely cover subjects like Styles, but
 for all beginners, and most other users a manual like I just described is
 what's needed.  Probably organized with an introduction to the most used
 commands, then a tutorial, then a reference section.


 There are two of your points I would like to comment on.

 First, use ODF instead of PDF.  If a person wishes to view the installation
 part of the document before they install the software then they are out of
 luck.

 Second, where do you get the idea that the documents are formated to 5x7
 paper size?  None of the documents I have seen have been formated for that
 size paper.  All the docs from the OOoAuthors site are in fact formated for
 paper size A4.  The PDFs can be printed two-up on 8.5x11 paper.


There are some good manuals for OOo - Gabriel Gurley's A conceptual Guide
to OpenOffice.org 3 and the OpenOffice.org Authors publications. However, I
think what is needed is an on-line tutorial system that leads to
certification. That is really what we will be aiming at with the LO
certification that we are meeting about in Berlin. If we can get EU funding,
we can produce an on-line tutorial system for each of the components of LO
in several languages with links to screen casts to demonstrate how to do
things. Link those to the assessment criteria and you have a fully supported
learning system. There is then the possibility of linking the LO help system
to this. Make it free for all to use but charge people who need
certification a small amount for the certification part and you have an
income to make it sustainable and to contribute back for development.
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[tdf-discuss] Take over of Novell

2010-11-22 Thread Ian Lynch
Is the take over of Novell going to affect the document foundation?

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Take over of Novell

2010-11-22 Thread Ian Lynch
On 22 November 2010 20:41, Michael Meeks michael.me...@novell.com wrote:

 Hi Ian,

 On Mon, 2010-11-22 at 18:10 +, Ian Lynch wrote:
  Is the take over of Novell going to affect the document foundation?

 It has been long anticipated, and comes as no surprise.

In the short term, nothing changes. In the medium term what the
 effect
 is, bad, neutral or good is unclear.

Either way - development-wise, LibreOffice is doing really extremely
 well with non-Novell developers right now; so whatever happens should
 not affect our viability as a project.

I hope that helps,


Just want to make sure you are still on the project :-)

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Why LO mobile version should not be ignored

2010-11-19 Thread Ian Lynch
On 18 November 2010 23:05, Harold Fuchs hwfa.libreoff...@gmail.com wrote:

 On 18/11/2010 19:39, Ian Lynch wrote:

 On 18 November 2010 14:27, Florian Reisingerreisi...@live.at  wrote:


  Has anyone in authority asked the PortableApps folk if they'd do a
 portable LibO? Can't hurt to ask ...

 Has anyone in authority asked the Android and/or Apple and/or Symbian

 folk

 if they'd do a mobile LibO? Can't hurt to ask ...

 snip

 --
 Harold Fuchs
 London, England



 That would be a great idea.
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 I'd be surprised if Google hadn't already thought about it and so they

 probably rejected it. After all they already have Google Docs and my
 Android
 phone has ThinkFree Office. Symbian is using K-office. The barrier of the
 size of LO is a significant issue. If it is slimmed and phones get more
 powerful it can happen but the longer that takes the moore likely it will
 be
 that it is too late :-(. Even a light weight WP based on Writer from a
 workflow point of view and supporting odf would be better than nothing.
 90%
 of people simply don't need all the functions for the things they do most
 often and this likely what they would do on phone technology.


 Your comment about the size of LibO is highly relevant. I've been amazed
 ever since I first encountered OOo that it isn't in separately installable
 modules. Perhaps, if it is to make significant inroads into the developing
 markets, it needs a complete re-design to conform to the Unix philosophy of
 making small tools that each do one job well but can be easily combined.

 ThinkFree seems do do MS Office format only :-( It seems to be able to
 handle doc, xls etc. but *not* docx, xlsx etc.

 K-Office seems to be able to handle ODF.

 Perhaps LibO is too late for the mobile market, which would be a shame, but
 I still think a *portable* version would be an excellent seller.

 --
 Harold Fuchs
 London, England


Really it's down to the Star Office heritage. Star Office originated at a
time when megalithic apps were the in thing. (at least with MSFT) You can
see why. Ever increasing size forces people to upgrade their hardware. New
computer new Windows sale. There was absolutely no incentive to do things
differently. Of course the developers of Star Office didn't have to do it
that way but they probably thought this is the model that is accepted by end
users so we have to have highly integrated to compete. Once it is in the
millions of lines of code it is very difficult to get off that treadmlll.
Personally I'd rather have seen the engineering effort going first for
efficiency with a set of features good enough for 90% of the market starting
10 years ago but we can't turn the clock back. And of course there is the
argument that without certain features some of the large public sector
switches might not have happened.

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Why LO mobile version should not be ignored

2010-11-19 Thread Ian Lynch
On 19 November 2010 15:11, Phil Hibbs sna...@gmail.com wrote:

 Ian Lynch:
  And of course there is the
  argument that without certain features some of the large public sector
  switches might not have happened.

 Back in my teens, my dad and I wrote a Basic interpreter for the PC
 based on the Acorn BBC Micro dialect. We went to a computer show, and
 I lost count of the number of people who just asked Is it 100%
 compatible?, and when I said no, but..., they just laughed and
 walked off. It's a hard barrier to break through - there are plenty of
 people who will say It doesn't have feature X therefore we'll stick
 with Microsoft. Sometimes it's features that can be worked around,
 such as only allowing one AutoFilter in a workbook, but someone will
 use that as an excuse for declaring a show-stop.


Thing we don't really know is whether a very efficient and compact version
of Writer that supported excellent filters for all the commonly used things
like tables, headings etc  and worked in a cell phone would outweigh
anything missing. After all the versions of MS Office for handhelds is only
a subset of the full MS Office. In phones it is not the same barrier as in
PCs,


 Phil.
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Inkscape vs. Draw

2010-11-17 Thread Ian Lynch
On 17 November 2010 13:44, Mayko Meier - Epidemus maykome...@gmail.comwrote:

 Hi

 My opinion, the Draw is a good application because is very easy to use,
 Inkscape is better because have more options to draw, but is to hard for
 the
 end-user use.


Are you saying that Draw could not benefit from some of the advantages in
Inkscape? Why do we persist with tunnel vision? IMHO Inkscape is easier to
use than Draw for many basic tasks but not all. Small children in schools
use it with ease so I don't think ease of use is a sensible argument
especially if we are only talking about replicating things that improve Draw
and that includes ease of use..





 Mayko Meier
 [image: banner.png]





 2010/11/16 Ian Lynch ianrly...@gmail.com

  On 16 November 2010 14:35, Luc Novalès luc.nova...@cena.fr wrote:
 
   Hi,
   I am OOo, and now LO user.
  
   Le 15/11/2010 14:22, RGB ES a écrit :
  
   2010/11/15 Ian Lynchianrly...@gmail.com:
  
  
   The point is that for me Inkscape is more usable and if there was an
   option
   to replace Draw with it in LO/OOo I'd take that option. Clumsy
   non-multi-tasking dialogues are just one of many issues. I guess if a
   long
   time supporter of OOo like me is saying this many others would too,
 so
   rather than trying to justify Draw's shortcomings we need to work out
  how
   to
   prioritise improvements to Draw and learn from applications that do
 it
   better.
   --
   Ian
  
  
   I use Draw only for simply diagrams, for complex stuff I use Inkscape
   or (maybe, I'm starting the tests with it) karbon14.
  
  
   Draw and Inkscape  are not equivalent. To draw freely, I prefer
 Inkscape
   but in some cases I think Draw better to be integrated in an office
 suite
  :
  
  - specific scale drawing (plans, technical drawing...)
  - automatic dimension lines
  - different export formats
  - multi-slide possibility
  - layers comportment (functional layer vs. position layer)
  - separated display and print layers functions
  
  
 
  Why not incorporate the best features of both products in one
 application?
  This artificial separation of functions has no logic to it. Why would it
 be
  a disadvantage to do specific scale drawings in Inkscape? Why would
  automated dimension lines not be good in Inkscape? etc
 
  As we lost layers in OOo 1.0 impress module (used for multi-languages
   presentation or different displayed and printed documents ), replacing
  Draw
   by another module should be damageable for LO usability.
  
 
  No-one is saying do a straight replacement of Draw by Inkscape. The point
  is
  that Inkscape has some very good features that would make Draw better
  (probably Draw has some features that would be of benefit to Inkscape but
  we
  are talking about making LO better not Inkscape). I see no reason why
  improving Draw with some of Inkscapes
 
 
 
  
   Luc.
  
   --
  
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Re: Inkscape vs. Draw (was: Re: [tdf-discuss] Apply button)

2010-11-17 Thread Ian Lynch
On 17 November 2010 16:17, Benjamin Horst bho...@mac.com wrote:

 On Nov 16, 2010, at 5:36 PM, Ian Lynch wrote:
  Think this has lost the plot :-) The argument was not necessarily to
 replace
  Draw with Inkscape but to learn from it.

 Excellent--this is what I was hoping we were collectively thinking in this
 discussion. Using successful attributes of Inkscape as inspiration for
 improvements to Draw is a great approach, since it has faced and solved many
 of the same problems.


One thing I really like in Inkscape is the object alignment tools. Very easy
to use and very powerful. Surely that would not be too difficult to
implement in Draw?

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Re: Inkscape vs. Draw (was: Re: [tdf-discuss] Apply button)

2010-11-17 Thread Ian Lynch
On 17 November 2010 22:53, Benjamin Horst bho...@mac.com wrote:


 On Nov 17, 2010, at 11:36 AM, Ian Lynch wrote:
  On 17 November 2010 16:17, Benjamin Horst bho...@mac.com wrote:
  On Nov 16, 2010, at 5:36 PM, Ian Lynch wrote:
  Think this has lost the plot :-) The argument was not necessarily to
  replace
  Draw with Inkscape but to learn from it.
 
  Excellent--this is what I was hoping we were collectively thinking in
 this
  discussion. Using successful attributes of Inkscape as inspiration for
  improvements to Draw is a great approach, since it has faced and solved
 many
  of the same problems.
 
 
  One thing I really like in Inkscape is the object alignment tools. Very
 easy
  to use and very powerful. Surely that would not be too difficult to
  implement in Draw?

 I agree--these would be a major benefit for Draw users. They may be my
 biggest feature request for Draw as well.


Well they are there in a different form and a bit simpler so it should not
be too big a task to improve them. Going for relatively simple tasks that
make a significant difference is most cost-effective in use of resources.



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Re: [tdf-discuss] document foundation wiki issues ...

2010-11-16 Thread Ian Lynch
In Drupal you can use public pages that are similar in concept to a Wiki.
Anyone can edit them and you can store a history of all the edits and revert
to earlier versions. You could make an automatic link from such pages to a
discussion forum to discuss issues etc.

On 15 November 2010 23:31, Friedrich Strohmaier 
damokles4-lis...@bits-fritz.de wrote:

 Hi Jonathan, *,

 Jonathan Aquilina schrieb:

  Random thought here. im willing to donate some webspace to a wordpress
  setup for the project. i have experience in making the site look less
  like a blog and more like a proper website and there are some really
  killer themes available for wordpress.

 The wiki is intended to be a pool of information to be completed by
 everybody rather than the projects website.

  would you guys be interested in migrating away from a wiki.

 No, never ;o))

  the way i
  see it the problem with a wiki is that anyone from the site and
  possibly even spammers can edit the page be it contributors or not.
  at least with wordpress you just have a list of users who have
  permissions to edit the site, as well as those who can just post and
  comment etc.

 what do you all think?

 The Website is already work in progress, coming up soon and realized
 through a CMS which covers all your points and more ;o)).

 [.. recycled TOFU ..]

 Gruß/regards
 --
 Friedrich
 Libreoffice-Box http://libreofficebox.org/
 LibreOffice and more on CD/DVD images
 (german version already started)



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Re: Inkscape vs. Draw (was: Re: [tdf-discuss] Apply button)

2010-11-15 Thread Ian Lynch


   Inkscape is used by kids in primary schools so the argument about
  professional designers doesn't really hold water - I use it on a netbook!
 So
  why not have docked panes in Draw? If it works well offer it.

 Simple. Because the topic wasn't about docked panes, but about the
 transformation dialog.


You brought up docked panes, not me ;-)

And, used varies. If we compare functionality, then it should be
 compared on a given use case.


Take most use cases and Inkscape will win.


 I agree that Inkscape is a great tool and
 much more handy for kids - in my point of view, because simple things
 like like moving objects, drag-and-drop, ... works better.

 But, to be efficient within complex graphics, the task pane of Inkscape
 just grabs a lot of space (which then has to be scrolled, or you have
 to undock it and move it around, ...). Fortunately, in our case,
 position control is given via the toolbars - not only via the task pane.


Which is a whole lot less user friendly, whether it is a professional
graphics designer or a school kid.


 By the way, Christian Lippka offered a nice private teaser some weeks
 ago. This is about how the layout might work for such task panes:
 http://lippka.com/teaser.png

 However, the original discussion was about avoiding iterative
 opening/closing the position dialog. And the given proposal was to -
 first - improve the positioning first.


The point is that for me Inkscape is more usable and if there was an option
to replace Draw with it in LO/OOo I'd take that option. Clumsy
non-multi-tasking dialogues are just one of many issues. I guess if a long
time supporter of OOo like me is saying this many others would too, so
rather than trying to justify Draw's shortcomings we need to work out how to
prioritise improvements to Draw and learn from applications that do it
better.
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