Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] NASA meeting end of April

2008-01-18 Thread Allan Doyle
Another good place to introduce OSGeo to NASA is the ESIP Federation,  
where I think a number of OSGeo folks are already active. Their next  
meeting is in July in New Hampshire. http://esipfed.org/events (ignore  
the date typo, the 2007 there should be 2008...)


Allan


On Jan 18, 2008, at 9:40 AM, Ned Horning wrote:


Greetings -

I'll give the “standard process” for announcing possible OSGeo  
events suggested by Arnulf a try. If there is interest I'll create a  
Proposed Event Wiki page.


NASA is holding their bi-annual Carbon Cycle and Ecosystem Joint  
Science Workshop April 28-May 2 in College Park Maryland: http://cce.nasa.gov/meeting_2008/


This event would be an excellent opportunity to introduce OSGeo to  
NASA and it's funded researchers. It will be well attended and I  
think this NASA community is ripe for learning more about OSGeo.  
This is potentially an important community since NASA is funding  
researchers that develop software but it's often not developed  
within open source communities even though there is an increase in  
the use of open source software. My gut feeling is that the reason  
for this is that many folks are not familiar with what open source  
is all about and they are not aware of the great resources out there.


If folks are interested in pursuing this I will do what I can to  
facilitate OSGeo involvement. I'm not certain if I will be able to  
attend and even if I do it would be good to have someone involved  
who is more adept at advocating for OSGeo than me.


All the best,

Ned
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[OSGeo-Discuss] projection projects

2008-01-18 Thread Mike Adair
I'd like to follow up on a conversation that took place at FOSS4G in 
Victoria regarding a gathering of the open source projection clan under 
the OSGeo umbrella.  Frank can probably expand on the idea more, but the 
idea being that it would be an opportunity to build up a community 
around the various coordinate system projects, each of which likely 
wouldn't be able to sustain that on their own.


My immediate motivation for bringing this up now is that I need to set 
up a project infrastructure for proj4js [1]  (svn, trac, email, PSC, 
etc.).  This might be a good fit as an OSGeo 'Lab' project as discussed 
a few months ago, either as a project on it's own or within a group of 
projection projects.


Comments?

Mike Adair

[1] http://docs.codehaus.org/display/MAP/Proj4js

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[OSGeo-Discuss] NASA meeting end of April

2008-01-18 Thread Ned Horning

Greetings -

I'll give the “standard process” for announcing possible OSGeo events 
suggested by Arnulf a try. If there is interest I'll create a Proposed 
Event Wiki page.


NASA is holding their bi-annual Carbon Cycle and Ecosystem Joint Science 
Workshop April 28-May 2 in College Park Maryland: 
http://cce.nasa.gov/meeting_2008/


This event would be an excellent opportunity to introduce OSGeo to NASA 
and it's funded researchers. It will be well attended and I think this 
NASA community is ripe for learning more about OSGeo. This is 
potentially an important community since NASA is funding researchers 
that develop software but it's often not developed within open source 
communities even though there is an increase in the use of open source 
software. My gut feeling is that the reason for this is that many folks 
are not familiar with what open source is all about and they are not 
aware of the great resources out there.


If folks are interested in pursuing this I will do what I can to 
facilitate OSGeo involvement. I'm not certain if I will be able to 
attend and even if I do it would be good to have someone involved who is 
more adept at advocating for OSGeo than me.


All the best,

Ned
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] About OSGeo...

2008-01-18 Thread Bob Basques

Hmmm,

Very thoughtful reply.  :c)

I wasn't trying to incite a riot or anything, it just seemed a bit vague 
on the press release page about what was appropriate (or not).


bobb



Frank Warmerdam wrote:

Bob Basques wrote:

Whoa,

So a press release can only be passed through for an existing OSGEO 
project?  What good is that to the wider community?


Or should there be another example added to the Conception section 
of the press Release page?


That part on the bottom about costs for distribution is an 
interesting piece, can anyone pay to have their press release handled 
by OSGEO?  Should anyone be able to?


Bob,

I'm not sure I followed the preceding discussion closely.  I will say 
there

is a difference between OSGeo passing a press release on through the
OSGeo Announce mailing list (and the web site) as opposed to OSGeo 
actually

issuing a press release to the world using the press release methodology
described on the wiki.

The first (passing on announcements) has a reasonably low threshold.
Basically the news editors (Tyler and I current) make a judgement call on
whether we feel the announcement is going to be of interest, and is
supportive of OSGeo's goals and we balance it against too much frequency
concerns.

Major projects announcements from non-OSGeo open source geospatial 
projects

generally pass this test though the major test is somewhat higher for
non-OSGeo projects than it is for OSGeo projects.

As for us issuing actual press releases, I think we should only being
doing this for stuff that is very directly an OSGeo announcement.
Partly this is because it uses up a bit of OSGeo karma with the press
folks every time we hit them with a release.  We don't want them to start
dismissing our press releases because we seem to be coming out with a new
one every week.  And the other item is that there is a great deal of work
in preparing and issuing a press release, including fairly stringent
review of the release.  I'm only aware of two or three press releases
we have actually made it through the hoops to issue in this manner due
to the effort involved.  One press release in the queue (advertising
the service provider directory) basically stalled and died because I
couldn't pull together the effort to make it happen.  So on that basis,
I'm not too keen on trying to issue press releases on other projects
behalfs (or even on behalf of OSGeo projects unless they are really
earth shattering).

I would note that the OSGeo press release guidelines can be used by
anyone to issue their own press release (as long as they don't
use OSGeo's logins, or issue it in our name).  I succeeding in doing
this a while ago for the libtiff BigTIFF upgrade effort on my own
with guidance from those pages.  But because that was my own effort
it did not have to go through the usual OSGeo review process.

All my own opinion of course.  We don't really have very specific
guidelines on what OSGeo will issue PRs on or pass on to the announce
list.  To some extent it depends on volunteers willing to do work and
on the judgement of various parties.

Best regards,

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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] About OSGeo...

2008-01-18 Thread Bob Basques

Whoa,

So a press release can only be passed through for an existing OSGEO 
project?  What good is that to the wider community?


Or should there be another example added to the Conception section of 
the press Release page?


That part on the bottom about costs for distribution is an interesting 
piece, can anyone pay to have their press release handled by OSGEO?  
Should anyone be able to?


bobb


Jacolin Yves wrote:

Le Friday 18 January 2008 14:05:49 Arnulf Christl, vous avez écrit :
  

Yves Jacolin wrote:


Le jeudi 17 janvier 2008 19:07, Arnulf Christl a écrit :
  

I also noticed (ok, so at this point I was going on the hunt for what
else we might want to revisit) that we have no media centre links
from the front page.  Do we have a place where we put all our press
releases?
  

Hehe. We have press releases whenever somebody does them. Did you?


Hi,

The French OSGeo Press Release is here:
http://wiki.osgeo.org/index.php/Promotion_visiblite_fr#Presse (Marketing
page)

With two parts:
1- Press release : http://wiki.osgeo.org/index.php/Presse_fr
2- Press release of software releases :
http://wiki.osgeo.org/index.php/Annonce_version_fr

If you think it is better to join all press release, feel free to tell it
to me.

Regards,

Y.
  

Hi,
looks like this needs a little more attention:
http://wiki.osgeo.org/index.php/Press_Release
is rather bleak. Oops, points to a dead link too. Anybody know where this
should go?

This one should be archived:
http://wiki.osgeo.org/index.php/Press_Release_Francaise

together with all the other ones from that date:
http://wiki.osgeo.org/index.php/Special:Search?search=pressfulltext=Search

We even have a process in place for new release:
http://wiki.osgeo.org/index.php/Press_Release_Process

but as far as I know we did not do much in this respect lately.

Is this more appropriate for the WebCom list? There is an ld discussion
of where this belongs. Time to create the Press Committee, only joking...

Regards, Arnulf.
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Thanks Arnulf, I was not aware of the 'Press_Release_Francaise' ;)

Y.
  
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open Technology Group, Inc. announces PostGIS UMN MapServer Training

2008-01-18 Thread Allan Doyle
+1 on no advertising or announcements on this list. I agree that  
it may sound churlish to stop good organizations from sending good  
information to good people; I also agree that allowing it would  
diminish the usefulness of this list. If the web page of offerings is  
not enough, then maybe set up a separate list for that kind of thing.


+1 on Arnulf's analysis of freely provided course materials. MIT  
started the Open Course Ware (OCW) movement a few years ago[1] and it  
certainly has not cut back on MIT's ability to attract customers,  
i.e. students. In fact, it has spawned a mini-industry of other  
universities putting their materials online[2].


Allan

[1] http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/web/home/home/index.htm
[2] 
http://www.ocwconsortium.org/index.php?option=com_contenttask=viewid=12Itemid=26


On Jan 18, 2008, at 7:58 AM, Arnulf Christl wrote:


Howard Butler wrote:

On Jan 17, 2008, at 1:34 PM, Cameron Shorter wrote:
If you were to lead the development of this material and put it  
into the Open Source (with your name attached) this would give you  
extra credibility and marketing reach.
Why?  Why must OTG put their hard earned training materials in the  
public domain and give them away for free for extra credibility?   
What would then be the incentive for someone to pay $$$ to go to an  
intensive training session?


Entrepreneurs, we have thoroughly analyzed this aspect over the past  
years and come to the conclusion that publishing course material  
openly is not detrimental to earning money. Quite the contrary it  
even helps us making more business. The added value is generated at  
several levels including both hard cash and marketing (find out  
details below). As active FOSSGIS software contributors we are happy  
to foster and promote the projects that we are involved with. In  
some cases (for example MapServer and PostGIS) this is the only way  
that we can give back our 2Ct contribution.
To better understand the involved factors we have studied uses cases  
in detail. First we have grouped our clients into three distinct  
categories who *use* our course material, these are: * Experts

* Students
* Professionals

Then we have identified three distinct groups who *profit* from  
having course material released under an open and free license.  
These are: * Clients (~users, as categorized  above) * Creators (for  
example the WhereGroup or Chandler OTG who produce Intellectual  
Property) * the FOSSGIS project and communities that are in the  
focus of the training material (here MapServer and PostGIS).


A multidimensional matrix would probably make this transparent but  
unfortunately I am too dumb to create it and will need to use words  
to explain the dependencies.
1. Real Experts (hackers, nerds, freaks). They would never pay for  
our courses because they are too damn smart. They wont offer courses  
themselves (which would be detrimental to our business) because it  
would bore them to death. But they still profit from having access  
to material because it will speed up understanding the corresponding  
FOSSGIS project. This will make them choose this project one over  
another one because good developers are also lazy. This is good for  
the FOSSGIS project and community because those people listen to  
what those real experts have to say, recommend, etc. Hard to measure  
- but unquestionably there.
2. Students. They will not be able to pay our rates anyway, so we do  
not loose anything if we give them the material for free. Quite the  
contrary, when those students leave school and come into a position  
where they have to decide where to go - who you'r gonna ask -  
Ghostbusters. This is a long term strategy that only market leaders  
can follow. Corporations Besides that students can potentially also  
enhance the course material, keep it up to date, etc. But only if it  
is available under a FOSS license, etc. This currently does not  
happen because universities and educational personnel are still in  
the late sixties wrt their knowledge about Open Source but so what.  
We have to be patient. Eventually the old farts who don't get it  
will be replaced by those that we have helped educate with our  
freely available course material and Bingo! If you lock your  
training material away and treat it as Intellectual Property you  
will be the only idiot who invests keeping it up to date. Why not  
exploit those who are prepared to give (FOSS4G 08, Keynote by Damian  
Conway)?


3. Professionals: Those are the ones that pay us money. They have a  
problem on their hand, a budget to solve it and limited time. These  
are the ones we love, we live off them. They would never bother to  
try and learn by themselves with freely available material because  
they have the resources to do it professionally and get somebody to  
explain it to them. They don't have the time to learn it by  
themselves. If they don't have the budget, they are not interesting  
to us 

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] projection projects

2008-01-18 Thread Frank Warmerdam

Mike Adair wrote:
I'd like to follow up on a conversation that took place at FOSS4G in 
Victoria regarding a gathering of the open source projection clan under 
the OSGeo umbrella.  Frank can probably expand on the idea more, but the 
idea being that it would be an opportunity to build up a community 
around the various coordinate system projects, each of which likely 
wouldn't be able to sustain that on their own.


My immediate motivation for bringing this up now is that I need to set 
up a project infrastructure for proj4js [1]  (svn, trac, email, PSC, 
etc.).  This might be a good fit as an OSGeo 'Lab' project as discussed 
a few months ago, either as a project on it's own or within a group of 
projection projects.


Mike,

Good timing!  I am still interested in this concept though I haven't followed
up on it yet.  My hope was that we could treat a variety of coordinate system
activities as one Project from an OSGeo point of view.  This helps get us
past the issue that some (all?) of them are rather small in terms of teams
to justify the full OSGeo project treatment.

But more importantly it would give us a forum to cooperate.  Sharing
things like coordinate system dictionaries, test suites and such.

My hopes for participants include:

  proj4js
  proj.4 (the version of PROJ.4 that I maintain)
  libproj4 (the projection-only library maintained by Gerald Evenden)
  OSGSpatialReference (GDAL coordinate system translation classes)
  CS-Map (the recently open sourced library from Norm Olsen)

I'm also hopeful that folks from GeoTools, and OSSIM who maintain their
own projections code would participate to take advantage of the
dictionaries and test suites even though their libraries wouldn't
be part of the project.

This is a somewhat unorthodox arrangement so I've hesitated a bit to
initiate things.  Also, it obviously needs agreement from several
parties. :-)

In the interest of moving on a bit, I've created a wiki page:

  http://wiki.osgeo.org/index.php/MetaCRS

I've also created a mailing list.  Please join if you have an
interest.

  http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/MetaCRS

Best regards,
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] About OSGeo...

2008-01-18 Thread Frank Warmerdam

Bob Basques wrote:

Whoa,

So a press release can only be passed through for an existing OSGEO 
project?  What good is that to the wider community?


Or should there be another example added to the Conception section of 
the press Release page?


That part on the bottom about costs for distribution is an interesting 
piece, can anyone pay to have their press release handled by OSGEO?  
Should anyone be able to?


Bob,

I'm not sure I followed the preceding discussion closely.  I will say there
is a difference between OSGeo passing a press release on through the
OSGeo Announce mailing list (and the web site) as opposed to OSGeo actually
issuing a press release to the world using the press release methodology
described on the wiki.

The first (passing on announcements) has a reasonably low threshold.
Basically the news editors (Tyler and I current) make a judgement call on
whether we feel the announcement is going to be of interest, and is
supportive of OSGeo's goals and we balance it against too much frequency
concerns.

Major projects announcements from non-OSGeo open source geospatial projects
generally pass this test though the major test is somewhat higher for
non-OSGeo projects than it is for OSGeo projects.

As for us issuing actual press releases, I think we should only being
doing this for stuff that is very directly an OSGeo announcement.
Partly this is because it uses up a bit of OSGeo karma with the press
folks every time we hit them with a release.  We don't want them to start
dismissing our press releases because we seem to be coming out with a new
one every week.  And the other item is that there is a great deal of work
in preparing and issuing a press release, including fairly stringent
review of the release.  I'm only aware of two or three press releases
we have actually made it through the hoops to issue in this manner due
to the effort involved.  One press release in the queue (advertising
the service provider directory) basically stalled and died because I
couldn't pull together the effort to make it happen.  So on that basis,
I'm not too keen on trying to issue press releases on other projects
behalfs (or even on behalf of OSGeo projects unless they are really
earth shattering).

I would note that the OSGeo press release guidelines can be used by
anyone to issue their own press release (as long as they don't
use OSGeo's logins, or issue it in our name).  I succeeding in doing
this a while ago for the libtiff BigTIFF upgrade effort on my own
with guidance from those pages.  But because that was my own effort
it did not have to go through the usual OSGeo review process.

All my own opinion of course.  We don't really have very specific
guidelines on what OSGeo will issue PRs on or pass on to the announce
list.  To some extent it depends on volunteers willing to do work and
on the judgement of various parties.

Best regards,
--
---+--
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light and sound - activate the windows | http://pobox.com/~warmerdam
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] projection projects

2008-01-18 Thread Arnulf Christl

Mike Adair wrote:
I'd like to follow up on a conversation that took place at FOSS4G in 
Victoria regarding a gathering of the open source projection clan under 
the OSGeo umbrella.  Frank can probably expand on the idea more, but the 
idea being that it would be an opportunity to build up a community 
around the various coordinate system projects, each of which likely 
wouldn't be able to sustain that on their own.


My immediate motivation for bringing this up now is that I need to set 
up a project infrastructure for proj4js [1]  (svn, trac, email, PSC, 
etc.).  This might be a good fit as an OSGeo 'Lab' project as discussed 
a few months ago, either as a project on it's own or within a group of 
projection projects.


Comments?

Mike Adair


I support this idea, good thing. It will be a place to help solve the biggest problem in the spatial web world that results from the tiniest imaginable dissent. Axis order confusion. 

Regards, 
Arnulf. 
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open Technology Group, Inc. announces PostGIS UMN MapServer Training

2008-01-18 Thread Arnulf Christl

Howard Butler wrote:


On Jan 17, 2008, at 1:34 PM, Cameron Shorter wrote:
If you were to lead the development of this material and put it into 
the Open Source (with your name attached) this would give you extra 
credibility and marketing reach.


Why?  Why must OTG put their hard earned training materials in the 
public domain and give them away for free for extra credibility?  What 
would then be the incentive for someone to pay $$$ to go to an intensive 
training session?  


Entrepreneurs, 
we have thoroughly analyzed this aspect over the past years and come to the conclusion that publishing course material openly is not detrimental to earning money. Quite the contrary it even helps us making more business. The added value is generated at several levels including both hard cash and marketing (find out details below). As active FOSSGIS software contributors we are happy to foster and promote the projects that we are involved with. In some cases (for example MapServer and PostGIS) this is the only way that we can give back our 2Ct contribution. 

To better understand the involved factors we have studied uses cases in detail. First we have grouped our clients into three distinct categories who *use* our course material, these are: 
* Experts

* Students
* Professionals

Then we have identified three distinct groups who *profit* from having course material released under an open and free license. These are: 
* Clients (~users, as categorized  above) 
* Creators (for example the WhereGroup or Chandler OTG who produce Intellectual Property) 
* the FOSSGIS project and communities that are in the focus of the training material (here MapServer and PostGIS).


A multidimensional matrix would probably make this transparent but unfortunately I am too dumb to create it and will need to use words to explain the dependencies. 

1. Real Experts (hackers, nerds, freaks). They would never pay for our courses because they are too damn smart. They wont offer courses themselves (which would be detrimental to our business) because it would bore them to death. But they still profit from having access to material because it will speed up understanding the corresponding FOSSGIS project. This will make them choose this project one over another one because good developers are also lazy. This is good for the FOSSGIS project and community because those people listen to what those real experts have to say, recommend, etc. Hard to measure - but unquestionably there. 

2. Students. They will not be able to pay our rates anyway, so we do not loose anything if we give them the material for free. Quite the contrary, when those students leave school and come into a position where they have to decide where to go - who you'r gonna ask - Ghostbusters. This is a long term strategy that only market leaders can follow. Corporations 
Besides that students can potentially also enhance the course material, keep it up to date, etc. But only if it is available under a FOSS license, etc. This currently does not happen because universities and educational personnel are still in the late sixties wrt their knowledge about Open Source but so what. We have to be patient. Eventually the old farts who don't get it will be replaced by those that we have helped educate with our freely available course material and Bingo! 
If you lock your training material away and treat it as Intellectual Property you will be the only idiot who invests keeping it up to date. Why not exploit those who are prepared to give (FOSS4G 08, Keynote by Damian Conway)?


3. Professionals: Those are the ones that pay us money. They have a problem on their hand, a budget to solve it and limited time. These are the ones we love, we live off them. They would never bother to try and learn by themselves with freely available material because they have the resources to do it professionally and get somebody to explain it to them. They don't have the time to learn it by themselves. If they don't have the budget, they are not interesting to us anyway. 

All folks from these three groups will see who created the course material and will memorize them as the experts on the topic. The GNU FDL license has a clause where invariant sections can be defined, typically this could be the front page and back cover, there you can find the authors, company logo and web site links or the creators' individual address, contacts. Link to the repository where the document is maintained, mailing list or whatever you want to advertise as important for this publication. 

Therefore our competitors who offer the same training courses with our material (Outrageous! My Property) always advertise us as the real real experts. Who're you gonna ask if you really wanna know? 


Lastly - and so important that I cannot stress this enough - obviously the 
Software Project is going to profit. Because the largest open gash in FOSS' 
outward image is missing, rotten and wrong documentation and training 
materials. If you 

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open Technology Group, Inc. announces PostGIS UMN MapServer Training

2008-01-18 Thread Frank Warmerdam

Allan Doyle wrote:
+1 on no advertising or announcements on this list. I agree that it 
may sound churlish to stop good organizations from sending good 
information to good people; I also agree that allowing it would diminish 
the usefulness of this list. If the web page of offerings is not enough, 
then maybe set up a separate list for that kind of thing.


+1 on Arnulf's analysis of freely provided course materials. MIT started 
the Open Course Ware (OCW) movement a few years ago[1] and it certainly 
has not cut back on MIT's ability to attract customers, i.e. students. 
In fact, it has spawned a mini-industry of other universities putting 
their materials online[2].


Folks,

I'd note I advised OTG to drop a message about their offering to the
discuss list, so they were acting in what they believed to be good faith.

I still think it is appropriate for folks to briefly introduce new
open source related training offerings here, but I shall avoid suggesting
this in the future since there are clearly different opinions.

The SPD does not give much granularity for describing things like training
courses.  Perhaps at some point we can have a wiki page pointing off to
various training options available for OSGeo related technologies.

Best regards,
--
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light and sound - activate the windows | http://pobox.com/~warmerdam
and watch the world go round - Rush| President OSGeo, http://osgeo.org

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