Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Re: A reminder on terminology
René A. Enguehard wrote: If you want to be even more granular, you can say "closed source software" as well. There does exist software which has a closed source but is not directly proprietary. For instance, parts of the QNX kernel code are not shown with the standard source code and to be able to view them you must sign some form of an agreement. Even then, you cannot modify the code or redistribute, but you are free to submit improvements and patches which will then be reviewed and (possibly) integrated. I wouldn't call that proprietary software by any stretch since you *can* see the source code and patch bugs within the kernel and the rest of the code base is entirely open source. Perhaps it's a bit pedantic, but if we're going for accuracy we might not want to lump everything together with proprietary software either. René, I would certainly call that proprietary! To my mind, proprietary projects and source are those that I do not have the direct freedom to view, modify and redistribute at will (as defined in the Open Source Definition for instance). If I can only see the source with permission it is closed. If I can only provide improvements to others with permission it is closed. I think proprietary is a reasonable name for projects that fail to meet the open source definition, though there could be some grey zones where it seems like an inappropriate label. Best regards, -- ---+-- I set the clouds in motion - turn up | Frank Warmerdam, warmer...@pobox.com light and sound - activate the windows | http://pobox.com/~warmerdam and watch the world go round - Rush| Geospatial Programmer for Rent ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
[OSGeo-Discuss] Re: A reminder on terminology
If you want to be even more granular, you can say "closed source software" as well. There does exist software which has a closed source but is not directly proprietary. For instance, parts of the QNX kernel code are not shown with the standard source code and to be able to view them you must sign some form of an agreement. Even then, you cannot modify the code or redistribute, but you are free to submit improvements and patches which will then be reviewed and (possibly) integrated. I wouldn't call that proprietary software by any stretch since you *can* see the source code and patch bugs within the kernel and the rest of the code base is entirely open source. Perhaps it's a bit pedantic, but if we're going for accuracy we might not want to lump everything together with proprietary software either. R Arnulf Christl (OSGeo) wrote: Folks, just a little reminder that we should be careful in terminology (because it came up in this thread several times already, this it is not a specific criticism of your content, Ravi). The term "commercial software" [1] does *not* exclude Free and Open Source software. Therefore it does not make sense to use it to contrast it to FOSS [2]. It is thus a confusing misnomer. Carelessness of use works in favor of FUD [3] on Open Source. Ignorance of the underlying concepts and misusing the term "commercial" [4] discredits all undertakings that provide commercial services for Open Source software (like these [5]). Please use "proprietary software" instead. For further details you may want to scan the OSGeo Advocacy category [7] (it is a Wiki, feel free to hack and extend it). Best regards, [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commercial_software [2] http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/words-to-avoid.html [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear,_uncertainty_and_doubt [4] http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Commercial_Services [5] http://www.osgeo.org/search_profile?SET=1 [6] 404 [7] http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Category:Advocacy Ravi schrieb: Hi, In India, OpenJUMP has a very good following on windows, as it is much simpler than some costly commercial flavors of GIS. They can at best be called as 'passive users', who even do not (care to) know that a list exists on the internet. Some Indian universities have started using OpenJUMP for vector GIS. Ravi Kumar --- On Sat, 22/8/09, Daniel Ames wrote: From: Daniel Ames Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open Source Lurkers To: "OSGeo Discussions" Date: Saturday, 22 August, 2009, 10:24 AM Landon, et al. I'm aware of this phenomenon in the MapWindow community as well. It is particularly prominent with non-English speaking folks who, for a number of reasons (mostly described by Bill below) don't feel comfortable joining the conversation and openly participating in the project. I think there is another clear reason for this behavior... they sometimes just don't know that they are welcome/invited. This might be more of a pronounced problem for those of us developing specifically for Windows because Windows users have historically been told that they are not allowed to participate. However it's also a phenomenon of GIS in general. When was the last time that the major GIS software vendor asked it's customers to actively join in writing documentation, answering forum questions and - heaven forbid - fixing bugs. So how do you fix this. Well all I can think is to continually invite invite invite. Everytime someone posts a forum question, give an answer and then invite them to answer other people's questions. When people ask for bug fixes, invite them to fix a big - or to hire someone to do it. Any time you get a personal communication, invite them to do something on the project. This has helped a lot with our project, and I think we've landed some awesome project participants (some of whom are likely reading this now!) by letting them know how much we need them, and inviting them over and over to participate. That's my suggestion anyway, Dan On Sat, Aug 22, 2009 at 4:53 AM, Bill Thoen wrote: I've been a moderator for a commercial desktop mapping forum for more than 10 years and this behavior is quite common. I think it has more to do with how people adapt to a social network than it has to do with anything unique in the Open Source world. Like Chris mentioned, the majority of subscribers prefer to lurk below the public visibility horizon in a way that resembles an iceberg where only the tip remains above the waterline while the majority of its bulk lurks below. People lurk for many of the reasons you suggest, but I think the most common one is that they don't feel expert enough to contribute anything useful to a thread, and the risk of saying something "stoopid" --in public... and worse, thus revealing to their GIS/mapping peers the depth of their ignorance-- is just too embarrassing to contemplate. Especially when compared with the perceived safety of remaining anonymous in the shadows where they can drink in new
A reminder on terminology (was: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open Source Lurkers)
Folks, just a little reminder that we should be careful in terminology (because it came up in this thread several times already, this it is not a specific criticism of your content, Ravi). The term "commercial software" [1] does *not* exclude Free and Open Source software. Therefore it does not make sense to use it to contrast it to FOSS [2]. It is thus a confusing misnomer. Carelessness of use works in favor of FUD [3] on Open Source. Ignorance of the underlying concepts and misusing the term "commercial" [4] discredits all undertakings that provide commercial services for Open Source software (like these [5]). Please use "proprietary software" instead. For further details you may want to scan the OSGeo Advocacy category [7] (it is a Wiki, feel free to hack and extend it). Best regards, [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commercial_software [2] http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/words-to-avoid.html [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear,_uncertainty_and_doubt [4] http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Commercial_Services [5] http://www.osgeo.org/search_profile?SET=1 [6] 404 [7] http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Category:Advocacy Ravi schrieb: > Hi, In India, OpenJUMP has a very good following on windows, as it is > much simpler than some costly commercial flavors of GIS. They can at > best be called as 'passive users', who even do not (care to) know > that a list exists on the internet. Some Indian universities have > started using OpenJUMP for vector GIS. Ravi Kumar > > --- On Sat, 22/8/09, Daniel Ames wrote: > >> From: Daniel Ames Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] >> Open Source Lurkers To: "OSGeo Discussions" >> Date: Saturday, 22 August, 2009, 10:24 AM >> Landon, et al. >> >> I'm aware of this phenomenon in the MapWindow community as well. It >> is particularly prominent with non-English speaking folks who, for >> a number of reasons (mostly described by Bill below) don't feel >> comfortable joining the conversation and openly participating in >> the project. >> >> >> I think there is another clear reason for this behavior... they >> sometimes just don't know that they are welcome/invited. This might >> be more of a pronounced problem for those of us developing >> specifically for Windows because Windows users have historically >> been told that they are not allowed to participate. >> >> >> However it's also a phenomenon of GIS in general. When was the last >> time that the major GIS software vendor asked it's customers to >> actively join in writing documentation, answering forum questions >> and - heaven forbid - fixing bugs. >> >> >> So how do you fix this. Well all I can think is to continually >> invite invite invite. Everytime someone posts a forum question, >> give an answer and then invite them to answer other people's >> questions. When people ask for bug fixes, invite them to fix a big >> - or to hire someone to do it. Any time you get a personal >> communication, invite them to do something on the project. >> >> >> This has helped a lot with our project, and I think we've landed >> some awesome project participants (some of whom are likely reading >> this now!) by letting them know how much we need them, and inviting >> them over and over to participate. >> >> >> That's my suggestion anyway, >> >> Dan >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Aug 22, 2009 at 4:53 AM, Bill Thoen >> wrote: >> >> I've been a moderator for a commercial desktop mapping forum for >> more than 10 years and this behavior is quite common. I think it >> has more to do with how people adapt to a social network than it >> has to do with anything unique in the Open Source world. Like Chris >> mentioned, the majority of subscribers prefer to lurk below the >> public visibility horizon in a way that resembles an iceberg where >> only the tip remains above the waterline while the majority of its >> bulk lurks below. >> >> >> >> >> People lurk for many of the reasons you suggest, but I think the >> most common one is that they don't feel expert enough to contribute >> anything useful to a thread, and the risk of saying something >> "stoopid" --in public... and worse, thus revealing to their >> GIS/mapping peers the depth of their ignorance-- is just too >> embarrassing to contemplate. Especially when compared with the >> perceived safety of remaining anonymous in the shadows where they >> can drink in new knowledge like free beer while also being >> entertained by the interplay of the forum's regularly featured >> fools and sages. >> >> >> >> >> If we assume that Maslow was right about what motivates people >> (self-interest) then lurking in an open source community and not >> participating is exactly the wrong thing to do. If your business >> depends on some FOSS tool, then it's in your self-interest to >> expand the environment in which it operates as much as possible. >> Because if what you sell depends on tools like OpenJUMP, you want >> OpenJUMP well supported with a lively user group, a good supply of >> free data, technolo
