Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] New incubation procedure
Vaclav, Please accept my sincere apologies as it was my mistake that i did not think on this when we started the ICA-OSGeo Labs initiative (so many things were going on at that time!). In universities, we generally use the Labs term to refer to infrastructure/people/facilities for a particular subject. For example Botany Lab, Robotics Lab etc. And we wanted to make sure there is a dedicated Open Source Geospatial Lab in universities worldwide (which includes bringing together people from various disciplines, infrastructure (the physical space) and facilities to make this happen. Also it is easier to make use of the same terminology/structure of Labs which is widely used in the university environment to get academics start the initiative in their respective universities (also it is easier for them to convince their higher management on a structure that is known to them than reinvent a new term for this) . So it will very helpful for us if you can make use of new OSGeo-projects and metioned star (or similar) rating system for the incubation as then there is no confusion in the future. Many thanks for your consideration. Best wishes, Suchith From: discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org [discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org] On Behalf Of Jachym Cepicky [jachym.cepi...@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2015 7:27 AM To: Vaclav Petras Cc: OSGeo Discussions; incuba...@lists.osgeo.org Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] New incubation procedure Vašku, just side note: yes, whith the new Labs initiative OSGeo-Labs have to change their name. My idea would rather be to get rid of current OSGeo- labs and projects and start with new OSGeo-projects and metioned star (or similar) rating system. Than for current OSGeo-Labs OSGeo-project level 1 would make it (or similar) Jachym po 2. 3. 2015 v 18:33 odesílatel Vaclav Petras wenzesl...@gmail.commailto:wenzesl...@gmail.com napsal: On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 6:44 AM, Jachym Cepicky jachym.cepi...@gmail.commailto:jachym.cepi...@gmail.com wrote: former OSGeo Labs (now it has no name is slowly forgotten in past, but you can find more at http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/OSGeo_Labs) Hi Jachym, do you think that with the renewal you can replace the name OSGeo Labs by something else? Now we have also ISPRS-ICA-OSGeo Research and Educational laboratories which might be often shortened to OSGeo Labs, although I prefer OSGeoRELs for writing. The mainling list is ica-osgeo-labs. Put perhaps it is not such an issue since the term Geo for All (http://www.geoforall.org/) is now used more and more (well, the linked website as OSGeo Labs in the title element). Thanks for taking this into consideration, Vaclav This message and any attachment are intended solely for the addressee and may contain confidential information. If you have received this message in error, please send it back to me, and immediately delete it. Please do not use, copy or disclose the information contained in this message or in any attachment. Any views or opinions expressed by the author of this email do not necessarily reflect the views of the University of Nottingham. This message has been checked for viruses but the contents of an attachment may still contain software viruses which could damage your computer system, you are advised to perform your own checks. Email communications with the University of Nottingham may be monitored as permitted by UK legislation. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] New incubation procedure
Vašku, just side note: yes, whith the new Labs initiative OSGeo-Labs have to change their name. My idea would rather be to get rid of current OSGeo- labs and projects and start with new OSGeo-projects and metioned star (or similar) rating system. Than for current OSGeo-Labs OSGeo-project level 1 would make it (or similar) Jachym po 2. 3. 2015 v 18:33 odesílatel Vaclav Petras wenzesl...@gmail.com napsal: On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 6:44 AM, Jachym Cepicky jachym.cepi...@gmail.com wrote: former OSGeo Labs (now it has no name is slowly forgotten in past, but you can find more at http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/OSGeo_Labs) Hi Jachym, do you think that with the renewal you can replace the name OSGeo Labs by something else? Now we have also ISPRS-ICA-OSGeo Research and Educational laboratories which might be often shortened to OSGeo Labs, although I prefer OSGeoRELs for writing. The mainling list is ica-osgeo-labs. Put perhaps it is not such an issue since the term Geo for All (http://www.geoforall.org/) is now used more and more (well, the linked website as OSGeo Labs in the title element). Thanks for taking this into consideration, Vaclav ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [Board] [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI
Hi Cameron, It is difficult for OSGeo to stop a vendor from promoting their product, or promoting a specific lock in strategy. Of course. That was exactly my point. But we can: * Support the OGC in developing an OGC standard for LiDAR. Once a standard is in place, there is a much stronger reason to make use of that Open Standard. In particular, many national government agencies have policies which promote standards over proprietary interfaces. With my mostly uninformed eyes in that topic, I don't know if OGC is the most relevant organization in that matter. It seems that the ASPRS would be a more natural host as it has already published the spec of the (uncompressed) LAS format: http://www.asprs.org/Committee-General/LASer-LAS-File-Format-Exchange- Activities.html I'm not sure about the LASzip format however, the compressed one, which is the one that ESRI has cloned into zLAS. I skimmed through http://www.laszip.org/ and couldn't find a reference to something more formal than LGPL code that implements it ;-) * Provide a position statement (as has been suggested) which explains technically the pros and cons of both the proprietary and open LiDAR interface. There are at least a few persons in the OSGeo community that have direct interest in LiDAR and are likely reading this thread. Perhaps some discussions are already happening behind the scene ? Regarding OGC GeoPackage standard: * I would hope that OGC's list of standards supported has a tick for read only, and tick for read/write support, so consumers can tell the difference. Currently there's no finalized conformance test suite available for GeoPackage to test implementations, so there's no official reference implementation or conformant implementations. I guess the conformance test suite would be similar to the KML one, in that you submit a file, and it is validated. So it proves that you can write a conformant file. Funnily, read-only implementations could not get the stamp! * It is probably not appropriate for OSGeo as an organisation to directly point out ESRI's lack of support for GeoPackage write capability. I agree. The best marketing, if needed, would be to point at our implementations that do support write capability. * However, it is totally appropriate for individuals and news agencies to write about it. On 2/03/2015 9:37 pm, Even Rouault wrote: Stefan, That a proprietary vendor decides not to implement a standard in its products is mainly its problem (as well as the one of its customers). Especially as they are plenty of FOSS alternatives that implement the standard! So I'd say it is a selling point for FOSS. The annoying thing here is that a proprietary vendor aggressively pushes his *closed* format and tries to undermine an open format implemented by FOSS. So it really harms the FOSS community. In that matter, the Geoservices REST API episode would have been less critical as the protocol had been at least opened... Even Dear all, dear OSGeo Board While supporting this LAS related initiative I'd like to draw your attention to a potentially similar use case which is at least of same relevance: In April 2014 Esri officially announced support for GeoPackage vector in version 10.2.2 and raster in 10.3: http://blogs.esri.com/esri/arcgis/2014/04/14/support-for-ogc-geopackages -in -arcgis/ (Support for OGC GeoPackage in ArcGIS) Now Esri support confirmed that in ArcgIS Desktop 10.3 only read-only access is possible. So, there's still no write nor edit capability (and no ArcGIS Server no Runtime) despite this FAQ: http://support.esri.com/en/knowledgebase/techarticles/detail/42567 (What versions of the OGC GeoPackage standard are supported?) I'm still looking for an answer for an Enhancement Request but I'm really concerned about Esri's commitment to (promised OGC) standards. Yours, S. 2015-03-01 22:38 GMT+01:00 Suchith Anand suchith.an...@nottingham.ac.uk: Colleagues, I see these kind of developments also directly affecting Open Principles in Geo Education that Geo for All , OSGeo, ICA all stand for and are working together in our common mission of making geospatial education and opportunities accessible to all. Geo for All will take a stand on this as it not only affects our Academic colleagues and students working in LIDAR research and teaching but will have long term impacts on Open Principles in Geo Education. We will work to put our ideas in the Open Letter from OSGeo explaining this. Geo for All started from very humble beginnings and this was only possible because academic colleagues globally came together to change the status of Geo education. For decades even though there was great progress in GIS technologies, educational opportunities esp. in developing and poor countries were very small. This is now changing dramatically thanks to the efforts of our
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [Board] [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI
The ASPRS LAS committee has been roundly criticized in the past for not operating in an open, consensus-driven, transparent manner. My personal feeling is that LAS - or any future lidar standard - is now too important a topic to be left to the ASPRS committee. The OGC model and the grass-roots, GeoJSON-style model both have their own pros and cons, admittedly, but at least with those two models you know where you stand. -mpg On Mar 3, 2015, at 1:13 AM, Even Rouault even.roua...@spatialys.com wrote: With my mostly uninformed eyes in that topic, I don't know if OGC is the most relevant organization in that matter. It seems that the ASPRS would be a more natural host as it has already published the spec of the (uncompressed) LAS format: http://www.asprs.org/Committee-General/LASer-LAS-File-Format-Exchange- Activities.html ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [Board] [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI
Hi Even, It is difficult for OSGeo to stop a vendor from promoting their product, or promoting a specific lock in strategy. But we can: * Support the OGC in developing an OGC standard for LiDAR. Once a standard is in place, there is a much stronger reason to make use of that Open Standard. In particular, many national government agencies have policies which promote standards over proprietary interfaces. * Provide a position statement (as has been suggested) which explains technically the pros and cons of both the proprietary and open LiDAR interface. Regarding OGC GeoPackage standard: * I would hope that OGC's list of standards supported has a tick for read only, and tick for read/write support, so consumers can tell the difference. * It is probably not appropriate for OSGeo as an organisation to directly point out ESRI's lack of support for GeoPackage write capability. * However, it is totally appropriate for individuals and news agencies to write about it. On 2/03/2015 9:37 pm, Even Rouault wrote: Stefan, That a proprietary vendor decides not to implement a standard in its products is mainly its problem (as well as the one of its customers). Especially as they are plenty of FOSS alternatives that implement the standard! So I'd say it is a selling point for FOSS. The annoying thing here is that a proprietary vendor aggressively pushes his *closed* format and tries to undermine an open format implemented by FOSS. So it really harms the FOSS community. In that matter, the Geoservices REST API episode would have been less critical as the protocol had been at least opened... Even Dear all, dear OSGeo Board While supporting this LAS related initiative I'd like to draw your attention to a potentially similar use case which is at least of same relevance: In April 2014 Esri officially announced support for GeoPackage vector in version 10.2.2 and raster in 10.3: http://blogs.esri.com/esri/arcgis/2014/04/14/support-for-ogc-geopackages-in -arcgis/ (Support for OGC GeoPackage in ArcGIS) Now Esri support confirmed that in ArcgIS Desktop 10.3 only read-only access is possible. So, there's still no write nor edit capability (and no ArcGIS Server no Runtime) despite this FAQ: http://support.esri.com/en/knowledgebase/techarticles/detail/42567 (What versions of the OGC GeoPackage standard are supported?) I'm still looking for an answer for an Enhancement Request but I'm really concerned about Esri's commitment to (promised OGC) standards. Yours, S. 2015-03-01 22:38 GMT+01:00 Suchith Anand suchith.an...@nottingham.ac.uk: Colleagues, I see these kind of developments also directly affecting Open Principles in Geo Education that Geo for All , OSGeo, ICA all stand for and are working together in our common mission of making geospatial education and opportunities accessible to all. Geo for All will take a stand on this as it not only affects our Academic colleagues and students working in LIDAR research and teaching but will have long term impacts on Open Principles in Geo Education. We will work to put our ideas in the Open Letter from OSGeo explaining this. Geo for All started from very humble beginnings and this was only possible because academic colleagues globally came together to change the status of Geo education. For decades even though there was great progress in GIS technologies, educational opportunities esp. in developing and poor countries were very small. This is now changing dramatically thanks to the efforts of our colleagues from Nepal to Uruguay. We got excellent support from all sectors (universities, industry , governments etc) but to my surprise ESRI was the only proprietary vendor who was trying to undermine this initiative indirectly from the very start. I still cannot understand why this particular vendor wants to do that. I really hope the proprietors of this company will also support Open Principles in Geo Education (not just telling externally on Openness but actually practicing this). We want to have good relations with everyone in the Geospatial domain , so our hand of friendship is always open. So please let us all work together. Hardware costs are (and will) keep coming down, internet access is increasing (and will keep increasing) even in developing countries and with free and open source software, even poor schools in developing countries are getting small computer labs established ( i know this from my experience in India) .The convergence of all these factors with a great team of dedicated people is changing geoeducation forever. I strongly believe access of good quality education is everyones birthright and now we are for first time in history getting opportunity to make this possible. We will not accept putting artificial barriers like high cost proprietary software (which quite frankly they won't be able to even think of affording) which will continue denying quality education opportunities for millions of students globally (both in developed and
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [Ica-osgeo-labs] [Board] The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI
Stefan, That a proprietary vendor decides not to implement a standard in its products is mainly its problem (as well as the one of its customers). Especially as they are plenty of FOSS alternatives that implement the standard! So I'd say it is a selling point for FOSS. The annoying thing here is that a proprietary vendor aggressively pushes his *closed* format and tries to undermine an open format implemented by FOSS. So it really harms the FOSS community. In that matter, the Geoservices REST API episode would have been less critical as the protocol had been at least opened... Even Dear all, dear OSGeo Board While supporting this LAS related initiative I'd like to draw your attention to a potentially similar use case which is at least of same relevance: In April 2014 Esri officially announced support for GeoPackage vector in version 10.2.2 and raster in 10.3: http://blogs.esri.com/esri/arcgis/2014/04/14/support-for-ogc-geopackages-in -arcgis/ (Support for OGC GeoPackage in ArcGIS) Now Esri support confirmed that in ArcgIS Desktop 10.3 only read-only access is possible. So, there's still no write nor edit capability (and no ArcGIS Server no Runtime) despite this FAQ: http://support.esri.com/en/knowledgebase/techarticles/detail/42567 (What versions of the OGC GeoPackage standard are supported?) I'm still looking for an answer for an Enhancement Request but I'm really concerned about Esri's commitment to (promised OGC) standards. Yours, S. 2015-03-01 22:38 GMT+01:00 Suchith Anand suchith.an...@nottingham.ac.uk: Colleagues, I see these kind of developments also directly affecting Open Principles in Geo Education that Geo for All , OSGeo, ICA all stand for and are working together in our common mission of making geospatial education and opportunities accessible to all. Geo for All will take a stand on this as it not only affects our Academic colleagues and students working in LIDAR research and teaching but will have long term impacts on Open Principles in Geo Education. We will work to put our ideas in the Open Letter from OSGeo explaining this. Geo for All started from very humble beginnings and this was only possible because academic colleagues globally came together to change the status of Geo education. For decades even though there was great progress in GIS technologies, educational opportunities esp. in developing and poor countries were very small. This is now changing dramatically thanks to the efforts of our colleagues from Nepal to Uruguay. We got excellent support from all sectors (universities, industry , governments etc) but to my surprise ESRI was the only proprietary vendor who was trying to undermine this initiative indirectly from the very start. I still cannot understand why this particular vendor wants to do that. I really hope the proprietors of this company will also support Open Principles in Geo Education (not just telling externally on Openness but actually practicing this). We want to have good relations with everyone in the Geospatial domain , so our hand of friendship is always open. So please let us all work together. Hardware costs are (and will) keep coming down, internet access is increasing (and will keep increasing) even in developing countries and with free and open source software, even poor schools in developing countries are getting small computer labs established ( i know this from my experience in India) .The convergence of all these factors with a great team of dedicated people is changing geoeducation forever. I strongly believe access of good quality education is everyones birthright and now we are for first time in history getting opportunity to make this possible. We will not accept putting artificial barriers like high cost proprietary software (which quite frankly they won't be able to even think of affording) which will continue denying quality education opportunities for millions of students globally (both in developed and developing countries). So why should i care? Because i learned one of the most important lessons in my life in my childhood from my grandmother (who though did not get the opportunity of proper education herself taught me the importance of the values of sharing and about Vasudeva Kudumbam which means We all belong to one large Universal family and Geo for All is for my Universal family and i will do everything in my abilities to make sure education opportunities are open to all. Best wishes, Suchith From: ica-osgeo-labs-boun...@lists.osgeo.org [ica-osgeo-labs-boun...@lists.osgeo.org] On Behalf Of Cameron Shorter [cameron.shor...@gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2015 7:37 PM To: Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX); Paul Ramsey; Carl Reed Cc: P Kishor; Scott Simmons; ica-osgeo-l...@lists.osgeo.org Subject: Re: [Ica-osgeo-labs]
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [Ica-osgeo-labs] [Board] The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI
Even, You wrote: The annoying thing here is that a proprietary vendor aggressively pushes his *closed* format and tries to undermine an open format implemented by FOSS. Youre right. But to me the case is quite similar with respect to undermine GeoPackage despite release announcements and OGC standards commitment. -S. 2015-03-02 11:37 GMT+01:00 Even Rouault even.roua...@spatialys.com: Stefan, That a proprietary vendor decides not to implement a standard in its products is mainly its problem (as well as the one of its customers). Especially as they are plenty of FOSS alternatives that implement the standard! So I'd say it is a selling point for FOSS. The annoying thing here is that a proprietary vendor aggressively pushes his *closed* format and tries to undermine an open format implemented by FOSS. So it really harms the FOSS community. In that matter, the Geoservices REST API episode would have been less critical as the protocol had been at least opened... Even Dear all, dear OSGeo Board While supporting this LAS related initiative I'd like to draw your attention to a potentially similar use case which is at least of same relevance: In April 2014 Esri officially announced support for GeoPackage vector in version 10.2.2 and raster in 10.3: http://blogs.esri.com/esri/arcgis/2014/04/14/support-for-ogc-geopackages-in -arcgis/ (Support for OGC GeoPackage in ArcGIS) Now Esri support confirmed that in ArcgIS Desktop 10.3 only read-only access is possible. So, there's still no write nor edit capability (and no ArcGIS Server no Runtime) despite this FAQ: http://support.esri.com/en/knowledgebase/techarticles/detail/42567 (What versions of the OGC GeoPackage standard are supported?) I'm still looking for an answer for an Enhancement Request but I'm really concerned about Esri's commitment to (promised OGC) standards. Yours, S. 2015-03-01 22:38 GMT+01:00 Suchith Anand suchith.an...@nottingham.ac.uk: Colleagues, I see these kind of developments also directly affecting Open Principles in Geo Education that Geo for All , OSGeo, ICA all stand for and are working together in our common mission of making geospatial education and opportunities accessible to all. Geo for All will take a stand on this as it not only affects our Academic colleagues and students working in LIDAR research and teaching but will have long term impacts on Open Principles in Geo Education. We will work to put our ideas in the Open Letter from OSGeo explaining this. Geo for All started from very humble beginnings and this was only possible because academic colleagues globally came together to change the status of Geo education. For decades even though there was great progress in GIS technologies, educational opportunities esp. in developing and poor countries were very small. This is now changing dramatically thanks to the efforts of our colleagues from Nepal to Uruguay. We got excellent support from all sectors (universities, industry , governments etc) but to my surprise ESRI was the only proprietary vendor who was trying to undermine this initiative indirectly from the very start. I still cannot understand why this particular vendor wants to do that. I really hope the proprietors of this company will also support Open Principles in Geo Education (not just telling externally on Openness but actually practicing this). We want to have good relations with everyone in the Geospatial domain , so our hand of friendship is always open. So please let us all work together. Hardware costs are (and will) keep coming down, internet access is increasing (and will keep increasing) even in developing countries and with free and open source software, even poor schools in developing countries are getting small computer labs established ( i know this from my experience in India) .The convergence of all these factors with a great team of dedicated people is changing geoeducation forever. I strongly believe access of good quality education is everyones birthright and now we are for first time in history getting opportunity to make this possible. We will not accept putting artificial barriers like high cost proprietary software (which quite frankly they won't be able to even think of affording) which will continue denying quality education opportunities for millions of students globally (both in developed and developing countries). So why should i care? Because i learned one of the most important lessons in my life in my childhood from my grandmother (who though did not get the opportunity of proper education herself taught me the importance of the values of sharing and about Vasudeva Kudumbam which means We all belong to one large Universal family and Geo for All is for my Universal family and i will do everything in my abilities to make sure education opportunities are open to all. Best wishes, Suchith
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Still time to register for FOSS4G-NA (but not for long!)
Wow, lots and lots of FOSS4G-NA people sign up at the last moment apparently! :-) It is going to be a vibrant conference indeed. Thanks so much for the great support. I wanted to share some good news, for those that still might like to come, we have extended the low pricing for 4 more days. Don't wait, register now at: https://2015.foss4g-na.org/registration (price goes up $300 after Thursday) One more time, please help us thank the sponsors https://2015.foss4g-na.org/conference/sponsors. We are deeply grateful for their support as it enables us to put on a show like this. And to the many speakers who are giving us their time sharing their expertise, thank you. Looking forward to seeing you next week in sunny warm California! Andrew On 26/02/15 16:41, Andrew Ross wrote: Dear Everyone, There's still time to register for #foss4gna in California, but hurry! Price goes up after tomorrow. https://2015.foss4g-na.org/registration It is going to be a fantastic conference. The program workshops are outstanding. The BoFs look super interesting. The social events activities are going to be a lot of fun. There's something for everyone. Kind regards, and see you there! Andrew p.s. For most of us, it'll be a lot warmer and sunnier!! ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] New incubation procedure
On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 6:44 AM, Jachym Cepicky jachym.cepi...@gmail.com wrote: former OSGeo Labs (now it has no name is slowly forgotten in past, but you can find more at http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/OSGeo_Labs) Hi Jachym, do you think that with the renewal you can replace the name OSGeo Labs by something else? Now we have also ISPRS-ICA-OSGeo Research and Educational laboratories which might be often shortened to OSGeo Labs, although I prefer OSGeoRELs for writing. The mainling list is ica-osgeo-labs. Put perhaps it is not such an issue since the term Geo for All ( http://www.geoforall.org/) is now used more and more (well, the linked website as OSGeo Labs in the title element). Thanks for taking this into consideration, Vaclav ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] New incubation procedure
I think we could Vaclav. One of the more extreme ideas I have had is to just call it incubation and only assign mentors when a project has completed each of the five things we expect and wants a review / recommendation. It would free us up to take on more projects (no longer bottle necked on mentors). My big trouble with this whole thing is the basic one: I want a project to be open source before being part of OSGeo :) So open source license and code check is the first step (not the last step). Perhaps we could allow projects to do automated/grep search for the initial code check? -- Jody Garnett On 2 March 2015 at 09:32, Vaclav Petras wenzesl...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 6:44 AM, Jachym Cepicky jachym.cepi...@gmail.com wrote: former OSGeo Labs (now it has no name is slowly forgotten in past, but you can find more at http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/OSGeo_Labs) Hi Jachym, do you think that with the renewal you can replace the name OSGeo Labs by something else? Now we have also ISPRS-ICA-OSGeo Research and Educational laboratories which might be often shortened to OSGeo Labs, although I prefer OSGeoRELs for writing. The mainling list is ica-osgeo-labs. Put perhaps it is not such an issue since the term Geo for All (http://www.geoforall.org/) is now used more and more (well, the linked website as OSGeo Labs in the title element). Thanks for taking this into consideration, Vaclav ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
