Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo-fr will be present at the Paris Open Source Summit!

[Cameron Shorter]

Hi Yves,
In the past there has been support (at board level) to pay for printing 
of USBs/DVDs, but there hasn't been a volunteer ready to write a 
proposed process and for processing payment requests.


If you can find someone willing to administer OSGeo-Live funding 
requests, I expect you will find funding for DVDs/USBs.


-- Thinking about our French OSGeo family today --

Cameron

On 15/11/2015 6:48 am, Yves Jacolin wrote:

Hi Cameron,

I am aware of DVD, but we dont have budget to print DVD or USB key yet.

We will use the presentation page and will talk about osgeo live for sure.

Y.

Le 14 nov. 2015 19:52, Cameron Shorter  a écrit :

Hi Yves,
People from your French OSGeo team have also translated many of the
OSGeo-Live pages too:
http://live.osgeo.org/fr/index.html

There are still a number still to translate, if you have some
translators available and willing.
http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Live_GIS_Disc#Translate

Also, will you be making use of OSGeo-Live at any of these future
events? Maybe handing out USBs or DVDs?
If so, please let us know so we can add its use to our OSGeo-Live
history page:
http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Live_GIS_History

On 15/11/2015 4:19 am, Yves Jacolin wrote:

OSGeo-fr, which is the french speaking representation of the OSGeo Foundation,
will hold a booth at the Paris Open Source Summit (POSS). This is an
opportunity for us to present you geospatial project, hosted or not within the
foundation, our work to translate documentation and website and finally our
futur events organized by the association.

User or editor of open source geospatial solutions, are welcome to talk with
us on our booth: what are your contributions plan? your future projects? How
do you see the market of open source geomatics and its evolution? Would you
like to join or sponsor the legal association OSGeo-fr? Or just to go to talk
with us: be all welcome on the OSGeo-fr booth!

OSGeo-fr will organize several events in the coming months: meeting of QGIS
users in Montpellier on 10 and 11 of December, FOSS4G-fr, the meeting of open
source softwares and data  geospatial will be held in 2016. OSGeo-fr also
works on the translation of the documentation of the QGIS, MapServer, PostGIS,
GeoServer and GDAL-OGR projects!

'''About OSGeo-fr'''

The French speaking association, OSGeo-fr, is the representation of the Open
Source Geospatial Foundation whose mission is to support and promote the
collaborative development of open geospatial data and technologies. The
association serves as a legal entity to which community members can contribute
code, financial and other resources to ensure that their contributions will be
maintained for public benefit.

The OSGeo-fr also serves as a reference organization and support for the open
source geospatial community, and provides a common forum and shared
infrastructure for improving collaboration between projects.

Participation is open to all of the open source community. All work of the
association are posted on public forums which may invest a free community of
participants. The projects of the OSGeo Foundation are all freely available
and useable under an open source license certified by OSI.

--
Cameron Shorter,
Software and Data Solutions Manager
LISAsoft
Suite 112, Jones Bay Wharf,
26 - 32 Pirrama Rd, Pyrmont NSW 2009

P +61 2 9009 5000,  W www.lisasoft.com,  F +61 2 9009 5099



--
Cameron Shorter,
Software and Data Solutions Manager
LISAsoft
Suite 112, Jones Bay Wharf,
26 - 32 Pirrama Rd, Pyrmont NSW 2009

P +61 2 9009 5000,  W www.lisasoft.com,  F +61 2 9009 5099

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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo/LocationTech relationship

[Jeff McKenna]

Hi Cameron,

Thank you for your message.  It is very refreshing to speak on this 
topic openly here, as others would rather send me strong private 
messages questioning my sanity, and making threats.  I realize that many 
cannot be open on this topic for various reasons.


Let me assure everyone here that I only have one agenda, which is very 
rare these days, and that is to help the OSGeo foundation.  I am not 
muzzled by fear or threats, and I will stand up for the OSGeo foundation 
whenever that is required.  If by standing up for OSGeo's only event all 
year, FOSS4G, means that I am called "confrontational" and 
"obstructive", then yes you are fully right.


Some may not know this by reading this thread, but I have always been a 
big supporter of LocationTech.  I was involved in the beginning of 
LocationTech, involved in the sense of being one of the first 
subscribers to their mailing list, and I even have had many chats inside 
their #locationtech IRC channel, even answering questions from new 
LocationTech community members (technical readers will find it 
interesting to join their IRC channel now on freenode and see the first 
message that is displayed when entering their channel "LocationTech: 
location aware open source software friendly to commercialization.").  I 
have followed the development of that organization right from the 
beginning, where they smartly filled a void by aiming at the 
business/commercial side of Open Source geospatial (of course, recently 
they publicly pointed out to me, even questioned my sanity, that this 
was false, I am dreaming, that they have always focused instead on the 
same goals as OSGeo, but readers, do a google search for LT and press 
release, and you will see their early visions).  Which is why I asked 
now to hear the vision of LocationTech (I was not answered, but someone 
else pointed to an FAQ just made).  In any case, no I am not insane, I 
have always followed LocationTech closely.


I do travel to many OSGeo local chapters around the world, constantly, 
and especially to developing areas that are just becoming interested in 
Open Source.  In a few days I will again take 3 more planes and 
represent OSGeo at a growing community, again putting life on hold, 
including my health, my money, and my life in general, to go help grow 
the OSGeo community.  In this event I can bet that I will speak 
personally to over 100 developers, students, decision makers, and 
researchers; I bet I will personally talk to over 20 businesses looking 
at OSGeo.  Those who know me well know that this is why I make those 
trips (I don't go for presentations etc.), it is that face to face 
representation that is so very important, especially in the long run.


As the leader of the OSGeo foundation, part of my role is to listen to 
all of the criticism about me; and I realize that the negative words 
you've used about me here for everyone to read, are not the first 
negative ones used at me in years past, nor will they be the last. In 
the big theater room that is the community, there will always be those 
that disagree with me, and I value their opinion as well.


Few in this community see me being so involved behind the scenes.  New 
committees, new MoUs, FOSS4G local committees, all just pop up on the 
scene and grow, but few see me behind the scenes helping them form 
initially, and I am ok with that.  The core community members in the 
OSGeo foundation know that I support them in every way that I can.  I 
often am actively working 2 or even 3 years in advance of a FOSS4G for 
that region, talking with those regions members, getting them to think 
of the possibilities, years before the release of the call for hosting. 
 To you and others it looks like I have no innovation, no new ideas, I 
don't work with community leaders, because you don't see me working 
behind the scenes for OSGeo.  I am ok with that.  You can keep going on 
in thinking this way of me, but I am very proud of what I do for OSGeo, 
what I constantly try to do for OSGeo.  Long-time members of OSGeo know 
how I have failed in several proposals to past OSGeo boards, and to this 
day those so-called "failures" are my most proud moments.  But yes, you 
can always argue that I am not innovative and do not help OSGeo.


I am also not wired to think of "money" first.  I follow my heart and I 
try to do the best I can for OSGeo, for the OSGeo foundation, always, 
even if it doesn't make sense for me personally or for my career.  I do 
it, for the love of OSGeo.  I also realize that it is this fact, of how 
I am wired, that causes conflict with others (another example is my 
father, who constantly says I should go get a real job and earn the 
money I deserve, he sees me struggle financially and it drives him 
crazy).  Instead of money, my goal in life is to be happy and do well 
for society.  I feel OSGeo and its local chapters fits in perfectly with 
my own personal goals, and I give to OSGeo everything I can, 

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo/LocationTech relationship

[Andrea Ross]

Dear Massimiliano,

Your opinion matters a great deal. I don't know if you realized: what 
you have suggested should be, is pretty much what is the case. Let me 
explain to hopefully show this is so.


This is all covered in the FAQ 
 
to try to make it clear & quick to read for any who are interested.


The people who put together the bids for Ottawa & Philadelphia did 
something positive and bid on hosting FOSS4G in their cities. As part of 
their bid, they very clearly stated that OSGeo would have the very best 
visibility it has ever had at any FOSS4G ever and a payment on par with 
the best ever without any downside risk. In that same sense that FOSS4G 
has ever been "hosted" or "organized" or whatever word preferred, by 
OSGeo, it would be the same, should those cities be selected.


The way the process works, the bid team select whom they wish to 
organize the logistics. And they reached out to LocationTech to hear 
what they could offer. Using Ottawa as an example (Dave McIlhagga, chair 
for Ottawa, shared all of this in public on the conf-dev list), after 
hearing the offer, they decided that they wanted LocationTech to help 
them organize the conference. For what it's worth, the other conference 
organizing firms who participated in the meeting & also heard what was 
being offered, and said openly, clearly, and unmistakably that they felt 
choosing LocationTech was the right choice.


Also covered in the FAQ, LocationTech does organize many events beyond 
FOSS4G. And, for what it's worth, OSGeo projects & initiatives have 
always been welcome at those events. The FAQ also details why there's 
interest in FOSS4G. It is my hope that you & others find it all quite 
reasonable.


Kind regards,

Andrea

On 15/11/15 20:05, Massimiliano Cannata wrote:


Andrea
Nevertheless in my simple and neligible opinion and understanding 
OSGeo never wanted to organize any apache event.


If valuable OSGeo members want to host and organize foss4g they can 
certainly do in their name or in the name of their local chapters 
leaving out LocationTech from the bussines. If LT want to be at the 
osgeo event they can send proposal and see if they will be accepted 
and then they are always welcome as a sponsor.


If we can see that "osgeo" and LT are "sister" organizations then LT 
could also have a free both and be listed as partner along with other 
organizations.


Otherwayaround why LT does not organize its own event and then let it 
be organized by osgeo?


Regards
Massimiliano

Il 15/Nov/2015 18:48, "Andrea Ross" > ha scritto:


On 13/11/15 15:42, Mateusz Loskot wrote:

On 13 November 2015 at 14:24, Jeff McKenna
> wrote:

why would you create a separate
foundation with the exact same goals, and then later come
back to the other
foundation saying "no, we love you.  Give us the right to
run your event".

Bang!

Jeff, thank you.

Best regards,


Jeff, Mateusz

I have answered this in my other email but I'll repeat here too in
case it's helpful. LocationTech was founded, by many of the same
founders and champions of OSGeo, to fill a gap. It has done a
pretty good job of this. A bunch of what it does, isn't getting
done elsewhere and is needed. None of this was intended to harm
OSGeo in any way, and so far as I can see, hasn't even after 3
years. Feel free to provide any evidence you can offer to the
contrary.

People can and do participate in both OSGeo & LocationTech all the
time.  This is a good thing. It absolutely isn't a zero sum
scenario. The mutually reinforce each other rather than detract
from one another.

Apache existed before OSGeo so the same argument could be used
there. While I can see how it plays to emotions, I'm not sure it's
a useful argument.

Andrea

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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo/LocationTech relationship

[Andrea Ross]

Jeff,

Again, you make statements like you have below about me/LocationTech 
smoothly courting/calculated/etc going after OSGeo's only source of 
revenue. Perhaps you would like to present your evidence for making such 
negative statements?


Bear in mind that the ample evidence to the contrary is public. Dave & 
Robert have told their stories about how & why they LocationTech as a 
conference organizer for their 2017 bids. Michael Terner shared his 
story too. There was nothing untoward involved, and everything has been 
talked about publicly.


The budget details for those bids are public too and as generous as a 
conservative budget allows. The payment is very much in line with the 
best payments ever received from a FOSS4G, and OSGeo is not on the hook 
for a loss should one occur.


Making such assertions with no evidence to back them up, against much 
evidence to the contrary is unfounded and very unprofessional.


The FAQ we published 
 
publicly makes the motives very clear. People like myself, Dave 
McIlhagga, Jody Garnett, and many others have been deeply involved in 
OSGeo & FOSS4G since the beginning in many capacities. (so were the 
Founders of LocationTech for what that's worth) All of what we have done 
is public record. We never left the community. We care about FOSS4G and 
care how it is run. We are valued members of the FOSS4G & OSGeo 
communities, have equal right to participate, and not the invading 
outsiders you are attempting to portray us as.


Again, you imply something untoward regarding why LocationTech was 
founded and exists. It was created & exists to fill a gap. And 3 years 
on it is doing a pretty good job of that. As I have said, I am not aware 
of any harm to OSGeo that has come from LocationTech. There was much 
goodness specified clearly in the FAQ stating plainly how LocationTech 
has helped OSGeo. You are welcome to share your evidence to the contrary.


As just one more example we didn't put in the FAQ, after a  very 
successful FOSS4G NA 2015, $6K USD was paid to OSGeo from LocationTech 
to help support it. The money was provided with no strings attached for 
OSGeo to spend how it see's fit.


Collaboration happens between OSGeo & LocationTech every day without 
fuss. People shuffle back and forth across the imaginary border without 
even thinking about it. It is one ecosystem.


I wish you'd see & acknowledge the goodness and positive things from 
LocationTech. At the very least, without any evidence of anything 
negative, you should really stop.


Andrea

On 13/11/15 14:24, Jeff McKenna wrote:

Hi Andrea,

You seem to value the OSGeo community so much, so much in fact that 
you would smoothly court all 3 of our bidders for OSGeo's only source 
of revenue and publicity all year, our beloved global FOSS4G event.  
It is true that it is "ridiculous", from an organization that 
(apparently formerly) focused on commerce, to ask OSGeo to pay you 
(90,000 USD), to take control of OSGeo's only event (worth 1,000,000 
USD), and then think that this is a fine since you offer (my answer: a 
polite no thank you) of handling losses for OSGeo's FOSS4G event, in 
maybe one of the strongest regions for attendees in the world?  If we 
are speaking of commerce, this doesn't make sense.


I think Maxi said it well, that we all are trying to understand your 
motives here.  How about an MoU together, exchange of official 
letters, big press release, creating a working group of half 
LocationTech and half OSGeo board members, an exchange of talks at 
each others events, become the sustaining sponsor of OSGeo; instead, 
here we are.


If you value the OSGeo community so much, why would you create a 
separate foundation with the exact same goals, and then later come 
back to the other foundation saying "no, we love you.  Give us the 
right to run your event".  Ha, pardon?


-jeff



On 2015-11-12 7:35 PM, Andrea Ross wrote:

Jeff,

It is really hard to discuss this topic because you make stuff up. The
concerns stem from the fantasy rather than reality.

The FAQ produced recently
 


does a pretty good job covering the situation.

In 3 years, so far as I know, absolutely no harm has come to OSGeo as a
result of LocationTech, and certainly not from any official/intentional
actions. On the contrary, there's a nice body of ever growing benefits.

Regarding your new claims:

  * The press releases & charter for LocationTech have not changed.
They're all still up where they always were and haven't been
modified. (seriously?!)
  * LocationTech & OSGeo have had formal relations for some time as Jody
notes. There is all kinds of collaboration happening frequently and
people are fine with it.
  * We gave many examples in the FAQ about LocationTech helping OSGeo.
I'm not even sure that (positive 

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo/LocationTech relationship

[Massimiliano Cannata]

Andrea
Nevertheless in my simple and neligible opinion and understanding OSGeo
never wanted to organize any apache event.

If valuable OSGeo members want to host and organize foss4g they can
certainly do in their name or in the name of their local chapters leaving
out LocationTech from the bussines. If LT want to be at the osgeo event
they can send proposal and see if they will be accepted and then they are
always welcome as a sponsor.

If we can see that "osgeo" and LT are "sister" organizations then LT could
also have a free both and be listed as partner along with other
organizations.

Otherwayaround why LT does not organize its own event and then let it be
organized by osgeo?

Regards
Massimiliano
Il 15/Nov/2015 18:48, "Andrea Ross"  ha scritto:

> On 13/11/15 15:42, Mateusz Loskot wrote:
>
>> On 13 November 2015 at 14:24, Jeff McKenna
>>  wrote:
>>
>>> why would you create a separate
>>> foundation with the exact same goals, and then later come back to the
>>> other
>>> foundation saying "no, we love you.  Give us the right to run your
>>> event".
>>>
>> Bang!
>>
>> Jeff, thank you.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>
> Jeff, Mateusz
>
> I have answered this in my other email but I'll repeat here too in case
> it's helpful. LocationTech was founded, by many of the same founders and
> champions of OSGeo, to fill a gap. It has done a pretty good job of this. A
> bunch of what it does, isn't getting done elsewhere and is needed. None of
> this was intended to harm OSGeo in any way, and so far as I can see, hasn't
> even after 3 years. Feel free to provide any evidence you can offer to the
> contrary.
>
> People can and do participate in both OSGeo & LocationTech all the time.
> This is a good thing. It absolutely isn't a zero sum scenario. The mutually
> reinforce each other rather than detract from one another.
>
> Apache existed before OSGeo so the same argument could be used there.
> While I can see how it plays to emotions, I'm not sure it's a useful
> argument.
>
> Andrea
>
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo/LocationTech relationship

[Cameron Shorter]

Hi Jeff,
Thanks for articulating your vision. I anticipate it will be very useful 
in moving forward, and will help provide a basis from which the OSGeo 
community and board can contribute to and build into a collective 
vision, and then extend into a practical implementation of it.


Warm regards, Cameron

On 16/11/2015 6:13 am, Jeff McKenna wrote:

Hi Cameron,

Thank you for your message.  It is very refreshing to speak on this 
topic openly here, as others would rather send me strong private 
messages questioning my sanity, and making threats.  I realize that 
many cannot be open on this topic for various reasons.


Let me assure everyone here that I only have one agenda, which is very 
rare these days, and that is to help the OSGeo foundation.  I am not 
muzzled by fear or threats, and I will stand up for the OSGeo 
foundation whenever that is required.  If by standing up for OSGeo's 
only event all year, FOSS4G, means that I am called "confrontational" 
and "obstructive", then yes you are fully right.


Some may not know this by reading this thread, but I have always been 
a big supporter of LocationTech.  I was involved in the beginning of 
LocationTech, involved in the sense of being one of the first 
subscribers to their mailing list, and I even have had many chats 
inside their #locationtech IRC channel, even answering questions from 
new LocationTech community members (technical readers will find it 
interesting to join their IRC channel now on freenode and see the 
first message that is displayed when entering their channel 
"LocationTech: location aware open source software friendly to 
commercialization.").  I have followed the development of that 
organization right from the beginning, where they smartly filled a 
void by aiming at the business/commercial side of Open Source 
geospatial (of course, recently they publicly pointed out to me, even 
questioned my sanity, that this was false, I am dreaming, that they 
have always focused instead on the same goals as OSGeo, but readers, 
do a google search for LT and press release, and you will see their 
early visions).  Which is why I asked now to hear the vision of 
LocationTech (I was not answered, but someone else pointed to an FAQ 
just made).  In any case, no I am not insane, I have always followed 
LocationTech closely.


I do travel to many OSGeo local chapters around the world, constantly, 
and especially to developing areas that are just becoming interested 
in Open Source.  In a few days I will again take 3 more planes and 
represent OSGeo at a growing community, again putting life on hold, 
including my health, my money, and my life in general, to go help grow 
the OSGeo community.  In this event I can bet that I will speak 
personally to over 100 developers, students, decision makers, and 
researchers; I bet I will personally talk to over 20 businesses 
looking at OSGeo. Those who know me well know that this is why I make 
those trips (I don't go for presentations etc.), it is that face to 
face representation that is so very important, especially in the long 
run.


As the leader of the OSGeo foundation, part of my role is to listen to 
all of the criticism about me; and I realize that the negative words 
you've used about me here for everyone to read, are not the first 
negative ones used at me in years past, nor will they be the last. In 
the big theater room that is the community, there will always be those 
that disagree with me, and I value their opinion as well.


Few in this community see me being so involved behind the scenes. New 
committees, new MoUs, FOSS4G local committees, all just pop up on the 
scene and grow, but few see me behind the scenes helping them form 
initially, and I am ok with that.  The core community members in the 
OSGeo foundation know that I support them in every way that I can.  I 
often am actively working 2 or even 3 years in advance of a FOSS4G for 
that region, talking with those regions members, getting them to think 
of the possibilities, years before the release of the call for 
hosting.  To you and others it looks like I have no innovation, no new 
ideas, I don't work with community leaders, because you don't see me 
working behind the scenes for OSGeo.  I am ok with that.  You can keep 
going on in thinking this way of me, but I am very proud of what I do 
for OSGeo, what I constantly try to do for OSGeo.  Long-time members 
of OSGeo know how I have failed in several proposals to past OSGeo 
boards, and to this day those so-called "failures" are my most proud 
moments.  But yes, you can always argue that I am not innovative and 
do not help OSGeo.


I am also not wired to think of "money" first.  I follow my heart and 
I try to do the best I can for OSGeo, for the OSGeo foundation, 
always, even if it doesn't make sense for me personally or for my 
career.  I do it, for the love of OSGeo.  I also realize that it is 
this fact, of how I am wired, that causes conflict with others 
(another 

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [Journal] November/December 2016 Newsletter

[Yves Jacolin]

Hello,

What is the period covered? 2015 ?

I will write something monday evening.

Thanks,

Y.

Le samedi 14 novembre 2015, 08:35:10 Landon Blake a écrit :
> I haven't heard from any of our committees or chapters. I don't need
> several pages of content...just a paragraph or two would be great. Please
> let me know what your chapter or committee have been up to!
> 
> Thanks for your help.
> 
> Landon (sunburned.surve...@gmail.com)
> 
> On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 10:07 AM, Landon Blake  > wrote:
> > 
> > I've got some time off from my day job this week and I'd like to do some
> > work on a November/December 2015 Issue of the OSGeo Newsletter.
> > 
> > I'd like to invite chapters, committees, and software projects to send me
> > news and articles on there recent activities. I really appreciate any
> > contributions.
> > 
> > You can send content to me directly by e-mail (
> > sunburned.surve...@gmail.com) or to the OSGeo Newsletter Mailing List.
> > 
> > Thanks!
> > 
> > Landon

-- 
Yves Jacolin
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo/LocationTech relationship

[Jeff McKenna]

Hi Andrea,

I have no doubt that you mean well.  I hope that maybe seeing my vision 
for OSGeo, will help explain myself.  I feel that OSGeo and LocationTech 
are in fact different, especially in their visions (which would likely 
be why LocationTech was formed initially, I imagine there was a good 
reason not to help OSGeo grow, not to dedicate that time to instead help 
change OSGeo for the better).  I realize that it is too late to question 
why we now have 2 foundations.  I would like to work together, but for 
OSGeo to have its own event, FOSS4G.  I would like to discuss 
LocationTech being more involved in the global FOSS4G, such as through 
sponsorship or special sessions.  I would like to discuss OSGeo bring 
more involved in LocationTech, and am open to your ideas how.


I hope taking all of today (it took me most of today to compile those 
words, which I made many mistakes in ha) helps you see more into my 
vision, and explains who I am and where I want to go.  I am very ok with 
people disagreeing with it.  I took a leadership training course for a 
year (in 2011), and this made me pull out my old Harvard Business 
journal print-outs ha, it was actually a good reason to review all of 
this.  I also know that a vision does not always work, and could be 
rejected by the OSGeo community at large.  I am, absolutely putting all 
of me on the line.


I am prepared for that as well.  Wow, isn't this fun? :)

Talk soon,

-jeff



On 2015-11-15 1:35 PM, Andrea Ross wrote:

Jeff,

Again, you make statements like you have below about me/LocationTech
smoothly courting/calculated/etc going after OSGeo's only source of
revenue. Perhaps you would like to present your evidence for making such
negative statements?

Bear in mind that the ample evidence to the contrary is public. Dave &
Robert have told their stories about how & why they LocationTech as a
conference organizer for their 2017 bids. Michael Terner shared his
story too. There was nothing untoward involved, and everything has been
talked about publicly.

The budget details for those bids are public too and as generous as a
conservative budget allows. The payment is very much in line with the
best payments ever received from a FOSS4G, and OSGeo is not on the hook
for a loss should one occur.

Making such assertions with no evidence to back them up, against much
evidence to the contrary is unfounded and very unprofessional.

The FAQ we published

publicly makes the motives very clear. People like myself, Dave
McIlhagga, Jody Garnett, and many others have been deeply involved in
OSGeo & FOSS4G since the beginning in many capacities. (so were the
Founders of LocationTech for what that's worth) All of what we have done
is public record. We never left the community. We care about FOSS4G and
care how it is run. We are valued members of the FOSS4G & OSGeo
communities, have equal right to participate, and not the invading
outsiders you are attempting to portray us as.

Again, you imply something untoward regarding why LocationTech was
founded and exists. It was created & exists to fill a gap. And 3 years
on it is doing a pretty good job of that. As I have said, I am not aware
of any harm to OSGeo that has come from LocationTech. There was much
goodness specified clearly in the FAQ stating plainly how LocationTech
has helped OSGeo. You are welcome to share your evidence to the contrary.

As just one more example we didn't put in the FAQ, after a  very
successful FOSS4G NA 2015, $6K USD was paid to OSGeo from LocationTech
to help support it. The money was provided with no strings attached for
OSGeo to spend how it see's fit.

Collaboration happens between OSGeo & LocationTech every day without
fuss. People shuffle back and forth across the imaginary border without
even thinking about it. It is one ecosystem.

I wish you'd see & acknowledge the goodness and positive things from
LocationTech. At the very least, without any evidence of anything
negative, you should really stop.

Andrea

On 13/11/15 14:24, Jeff McKenna wrote:

Hi Andrea,

You seem to value the OSGeo community so much, so much in fact that
you would smoothly court all 3 of our bidders for OSGeo's only source
of revenue and publicity all year, our beloved global FOSS4G event.
It is true that it is "ridiculous", from an organization that
(apparently formerly) focused on commerce, to ask OSGeo to pay you
(90,000 USD), to take control of OSGeo's only event (worth 1,000,000
USD), and then think that this is a fine since you offer (my answer: a
polite no thank you) of handling losses for OSGeo's FOSS4G event, in
maybe one of the strongest regions for attendees in the world?  If we
are speaking of commerce, this doesn't make sense.

I think Maxi said it well, that we all are trying to understand your
motives here.  How about an MoU together, exchange of official
letters, big press release, creating a working group of half

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] November/December 2016 Newsletter

[Anita Graser]

Hi Landon,

If it fits the newsletter, I think it would be great to report from the
latest QGIS developer meeting
http://blog.qgis.org/2015/11/15/a-word-of-thanks-to-the-hosts-of-the-14th-qgis-hackfest-in-gran-canaria/

Let me know if I should compile a short summary.

Best wishes,
Anita


On Sat, Nov 14, 2015 at 5:35 PM, Landon Blake 
wrote:

> I haven't heard from any of our committees or chapters. I don't need
> several pages of content...just a paragraph or two would be great. Please
> let me know what your chapter or committee have been up to!
>
> Thanks for your help.
>
> Landon (sunburned.surve...@gmail.com)
>
> On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 10:07 AM, Landon Blake <
> sunburned.surve...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I've got some time off from my day job this week and I'd like to do some
>> work on a November/December 2015 Issue of the OSGeo Newsletter.
>>
>> I'd like to invite chapters, committees, and software projects to send me
>> news and articles on there recent activities. I really appreciate any
>> contributions.
>>
>> You can send content to me directly by e-mail (
>> sunburned.surve...@gmail.com) or to the OSGeo Newsletter Mailing List.
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> Landon
>>
>
>
> ___
> Discuss mailing list
> Discuss@lists.osgeo.org
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>
___
Discuss mailing list
Discuss@lists.osgeo.org
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo/LocationTech relationship

[Charles Schweik]

+1
Charlie Schweik


On Sun, Nov 15, 2015 at 6:36 PM, Venkatesh Raghavan <
ragha...@media.osaka-cu.ac.jp> wrote:

> Jeff,
>
> Many thanks for the great job you are doing in
> representing OSGeo with selfless dedication
> and for sharing your vision with all of us.
>
> I wish you great fun and safe travel for representing OSGeo at
> the GISConf in Moscow [1] that is coming up this weekend.
>
> Best
>
> Venka
>
> [1] http://gisconf.ru/
>
> On 2015/11/16 4:13, Jeff McKenna wrote:
>
>> Hi Cameron,
>>
>> Thank you for your message.  It is very refreshing to speak on this topic
>> openly here, as others would rather send me strong private messages
>> questioning my sanity, and making threats.  I realize that many cannot be
>> open on this topic for various reasons.
>>
>> Let me assure everyone here that I only have one agenda, which is very
>> rare these days, and that is to help the OSGeo foundation.  I am not
>> muzzled by fear or threats, and I will stand up for the OSGeo foundation
>> whenever that is required.  If by standing up for OSGeo's only event all
>> year, FOSS4G, means that I am called "confrontational" and "obstructive",
>> then yes you are fully right.
>>
>> Some may not know this by reading this thread, but I have always been a
>> big supporter of LocationTech.  I was involved in the beginning of
>> LocationTech, involved in the sense of being one of the first subscribers
>> to their mailing list, and I even have had many chats inside their
>> #locationtech IRC channel, even answering questions from new LocationTech
>> community members (technical readers will find it interesting to join their
>> IRC channel now on freenode and see the first message that is displayed
>> when entering their channel "LocationTech: location aware open source
>> software friendly to commercialization.").  I have followed the development
>> of that organization right from the beginning, where they smartly filled a
>> void by aiming at the business/commercial side of Open Source geospatial
>> (of course, recently they publicly pointed out to me, even questioned my
>> sanity, that this was false, I am dreaming, that they have always focused
>> instead on the same goals as OSGeo, but readers, do a google search for LT
>> and press release, and you will see their early visions).  Which is why I
>> asked now to hear the vision of LocationTech (I was not answered, but
>> someone else pointed to an FAQ just made).  In any case, no I am not
>> insane, I have always followed LocationTech closely.
>>
>> I do travel to many OSGeo local chapters around the world, constantly,
>> and especially to developing areas that are just becoming interested in
>> Open Source.  In a few days I will again take 3 more planes and represent
>> OSGeo at a growing community, again putting life on hold, including my
>> health, my money, and my life in general, to go help grow the OSGeo
>> community.  In this event I can bet that I will speak personally to over
>> 100 developers, students, decision makers, and researchers; I bet I will
>> personally talk to over 20 businesses looking at OSGeo. Those who know me
>> well know that this is why I make those trips (I don't go for presentations
>> etc.), it is that face to face representation that is so very important,
>> especially in the long run.
>>
>> As the leader of the OSGeo foundation, part of my role is to listen to
>> all of the criticism about me; and I realize that the negative words you've
>> used about me here for everyone to read, are not the first negative ones
>> used at me in years past, nor will they be the last. In the big theater
>> room that is the community, there will always be those that disagree with
>> me, and I value their opinion as well.
>>
>> Few in this community see me being so involved behind the scenes. New
>> committees, new MoUs, FOSS4G local committees, all just pop up on the scene
>> and grow, but few see me behind the scenes helping them form initially, and
>> I am ok with that.  The core community members in the OSGeo foundation know
>> that I support them in every way that I can.  I often am actively working 2
>> or even 3 years in advance of a FOSS4G for that region, talking with those
>> regions members, getting them to think of the possibilities, years before
>> the release of the call for hosting.  To you and others it looks like I
>> have no innovation, no new ideas, I don't work with community leaders,
>> because you don't see me working behind the scenes for OSGeo.  I am ok with
>> that.  You can keep going on in thinking this way of me, but I am very
>> proud of what I do for OSGeo, what I constantly try to do for OSGeo.
>> Long-time members of OSGeo know how I have failed in several proposals to
>> past OSGeo boards, and to this day those so-called "failures" are my most
>> proud moments.  But yes, you can always argue that I am not innovative and
>> do not help OSGeo.
>>
>> I am also not wired to think of "money" first.  I follow my heart and I
>> try 

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo/LocationTech relationship

[Venkatesh Raghavan]

Jeff,

Many thanks for the great job you are doing in
representing OSGeo with selfless dedication
and for sharing your vision with all of us.

I wish you great fun and safe travel for representing OSGeo at
the GISConf in Moscow [1] that is coming up this weekend.

Best

Venka

[1] http://gisconf.ru/

On 2015/11/16 4:13, Jeff McKenna wrote:

Hi Cameron,

Thank you for your message.  It is very refreshing to speak on this 
topic openly here, as others would rather send me strong private 
messages questioning my sanity, and making threats.  I realize that 
many cannot be open on this topic for various reasons.


Let me assure everyone here that I only have one agenda, which is very 
rare these days, and that is to help the OSGeo foundation.  I am not 
muzzled by fear or threats, and I will stand up for the OSGeo 
foundation whenever that is required.  If by standing up for OSGeo's 
only event all year, FOSS4G, means that I am called "confrontational" 
and "obstructive", then yes you are fully right.


Some may not know this by reading this thread, but I have always been 
a big supporter of LocationTech.  I was involved in the beginning of 
LocationTech, involved in the sense of being one of the first 
subscribers to their mailing list, and I even have had many chats 
inside their #locationtech IRC channel, even answering questions from 
new LocationTech community members (technical readers will find it 
interesting to join their IRC channel now on freenode and see the 
first message that is displayed when entering their channel 
"LocationTech: location aware open source software friendly to 
commercialization.").  I have followed the development of that 
organization right from the beginning, where they smartly filled a 
void by aiming at the business/commercial side of Open Source 
geospatial (of course, recently they publicly pointed out to me, even 
questioned my sanity, that this was false, I am dreaming, that they 
have always focused instead on the same goals as OSGeo, but readers, 
do a google search for LT and press release, and you will see their 
early visions).  Which is why I asked now to hear the vision of 
LocationTech (I was not answered, but someone else pointed to an FAQ 
just made).  In any case, no I am not insane, I have always followed 
LocationTech closely.


I do travel to many OSGeo local chapters around the world, constantly, 
and especially to developing areas that are just becoming interested 
in Open Source.  In a few days I will again take 3 more planes and 
represent OSGeo at a growing community, again putting life on hold, 
including my health, my money, and my life in general, to go help grow 
the OSGeo community.  In this event I can bet that I will speak 
personally to over 100 developers, students, decision makers, and 
researchers; I bet I will personally talk to over 20 businesses 
looking at OSGeo. Those who know me well know that this is why I make 
those trips (I don't go for presentations etc.), it is that face to 
face representation that is so very important, especially in the long 
run.


As the leader of the OSGeo foundation, part of my role is to listen to 
all of the criticism about me; and I realize that the negative words 
you've used about me here for everyone to read, are not the first 
negative ones used at me in years past, nor will they be the last. In 
the big theater room that is the community, there will always be those 
that disagree with me, and I value their opinion as well.


Few in this community see me being so involved behind the scenes. New 
committees, new MoUs, FOSS4G local committees, all just pop up on the 
scene and grow, but few see me behind the scenes helping them form 
initially, and I am ok with that.  The core community members in the 
OSGeo foundation know that I support them in every way that I can.  I 
often am actively working 2 or even 3 years in advance of a FOSS4G for 
that region, talking with those regions members, getting them to think 
of the possibilities, years before the release of the call for 
hosting.  To you and others it looks like I have no innovation, no new 
ideas, I don't work with community leaders, because you don't see me 
working behind the scenes for OSGeo.  I am ok with that.  You can keep 
going on in thinking this way of me, but I am very proud of what I do 
for OSGeo, what I constantly try to do for OSGeo.  Long-time members 
of OSGeo know how I have failed in several proposals to past OSGeo 
boards, and to this day those so-called "failures" are my most proud 
moments.  But yes, you can always argue that I am not innovative and 
do not help OSGeo.


I am also not wired to think of "money" first.  I follow my heart and 
I try to do the best I can for OSGeo, for the OSGeo foundation, 
always, even if it doesn't make sense for me personally or for my 
career.  I do it, for the love of OSGeo.  I also realize that it is 
this fact, of how I am wired, that causes conflict with others 
(another example is 

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo/LocationTech relationship

[Jeff McKenna]

and Jo Cook, so I should never have written "first".  Now, I realize I 
am talking too much :) Phew.  Anyway I hope my vision is still clear. 
-jeff





On 2015-11-15 3:21 PM, Jeff McKenna wrote:

Anne don't yell at me, I forgot to mention you, I should have stated
"This year's board has the most women ever", not first! :)

I am smiling.  Sorry Anne!

-jeff



On 2015-11-15 3:13 PM, Jeff McKenna wrote:

Hi Cameron,

Thank you for your message.  It is very refreshing to speak on this
topic openly here, as others would rather send me strong private
messages questioning my sanity, and making threats.  I realize that many
cannot be open on this topic for various reasons.

Let me assure everyone here that I only have one agenda, which is very
rare these days, and that is to help the OSGeo foundation.  I am not
muzzled by fear or threats, and I will stand up for the OSGeo foundation
whenever that is required.  If by standing up for OSGeo's only event all
year, FOSS4G, means that I am called "confrontational" and
"obstructive", then yes you are fully right.

Some may not know this by reading this thread, but I have always been a
big supporter of LocationTech.  I was involved in the beginning of
LocationTech, involved in the sense of being one of the first
subscribers to their mailing list, and I even have had many chats inside
their #locationtech IRC channel, even answering questions from new
LocationTech community members (technical readers will find it
interesting to join their IRC channel now on freenode and see the first
message that is displayed when entering their channel "LocationTech:
location aware open source software friendly to commercialization.").  I
have followed the development of that organization right from the
beginning, where they smartly filled a void by aiming at the
business/commercial side of Open Source geospatial (of course, recently
they publicly pointed out to me, even questioned my sanity, that this
was false, I am dreaming, that they have always focused instead on the
same goals as OSGeo, but readers, do a google search for LT and press
release, and you will see their early visions).  Which is why I asked
now to hear the vision of LocationTech (I was not answered, but someone
else pointed to an FAQ just made).  In any case, no I am not insane, I
have always followed LocationTech closely.

I do travel to many OSGeo local chapters around the world, constantly,
and especially to developing areas that are just becoming interested in
Open Source.  In a few days I will again take 3 more planes and
represent OSGeo at a growing community, again putting life on hold,
including my health, my money, and my life in general, to go help grow
the OSGeo community.  In this event I can bet that I will speak
personally to over 100 developers, students, decision makers, and
researchers; I bet I will personally talk to over 20 businesses looking
at OSGeo.  Those who know me well know that this is why I make those
trips (I don't go for presentations etc.), it is that face to face
representation that is so very important, especially in the long run.

As the leader of the OSGeo foundation, part of my role is to listen to
all of the criticism about me; and I realize that the negative words
you've used about me here for everyone to read, are not the first
negative ones used at me in years past, nor will they be the last. In
the big theater room that is the community, there will always be those
that disagree with me, and I value their opinion as well.

Few in this community see me being so involved behind the scenes.  New
committees, new MoUs, FOSS4G local committees, all just pop up on the
scene and grow, but few see me behind the scenes helping them form
initially, and I am ok with that.  The core community members in the
OSGeo foundation know that I support them in every way that I can.  I
often am actively working 2 or even 3 years in advance of a FOSS4G for
that region, talking with those regions members, getting them to think
of the possibilities, years before the release of the call for hosting.
  To you and others it looks like I have no innovation, no new ideas, I
don't work with community leaders, because you don't see me working
behind the scenes for OSGeo.  I am ok with that.  You can keep going on
in thinking this way of me, but I am very proud of what I do for OSGeo,
what I constantly try to do for OSGeo.  Long-time members of OSGeo know
how I have failed in several proposals to past OSGeo boards, and to this
day those so-called "failures" are my most proud moments.  But yes, you
can always argue that I am not innovative and do not help OSGeo.

I am also not wired to think of "money" first.  I follow my heart and I
try to do the best I can for OSGeo, for the OSGeo foundation, always,
even if it doesn't make sense for me personally or for my career.  I do
it, for the love of OSGeo.  I also realize that it is this fact, of how
I am wired, that causes conflict with others (another example is my

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo/LocationTech relationship

[Daniel Kastl]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256


> 
> People can and do participate in both OSGeo & LocationTech all the 
> time.  This is a good thing. It absolutely isn't a zero sum
> scenario. The mutually reinforce each other rather than detract
> from one another.
> 

I think there is a big difference in how the participation is organized:
With OSGeo you become a member like this: http://www.osgeo.org/Membershi
p
And with LT it works like this:
https://www.locationtech.org/content/become-member and details in
here: https://www.locationtech.org/charter

You could now argue, that participation is not membership. That's right.
But then look at who you participate for in case of LT :
https://www.locationtech.org/members

There is a big "Strategic" at the topic, so to me this means, that
they have a lot to say. And there is a guest sections, which it likely
the opposite.

I don't need to explain, who paid their dollars to become a strategic
member. For them the annual fee is nothing in their overall budget.

The funny thing is, that both (OSGeo and LT) have a "Nondiscrimination
Statement" on their website:

OSGeo: "The Foundation is open to all members of the geospatial
community. We do not discriminate based on age, gender, race,
nationality, religion, sexual orientation, or disability."

LT: "We are committed to making participation in the LocationTech
community a harassment-free experience for everyone, regardless of
level of experience, gender, gender identity and expression, sexual
orientation, disability, personal appearance, body size, race,
ethnicity, age, religion or analogous grounds."

I think you forgot "economic discrimination"!

For me, whether I would be able to pay for a membership or not, it
makes it a very easy decision, where I want to contribute my volunteer
time for.

Sorry, if this slightly moved the thread into a different direction. I
just wanted to agree with Andrea, that LT doesn't have the same goals
in some way: it clearly focuses on the economic strong members of the
organization.

Best regards,
Daniel

PS: you will also recognize from the members, that LT is not a diverse
organization in terms nationalities. Well, you could argue, that IBM,
Oracle and Google are operating globally ;-)




- -- 
Georepublic UG & Georepublic Japan
eMail: daniel.ka...@georepublic.de
Web: https://georepublic.info
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Discuss mailing list
Discuss@lists.osgeo.org
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo/LocationTech relationship

[Rob Emanuele]

Hi Jeff,

Thanks for your thoughts and words, I appreciate the effort you put into
explaining yourself.

I wanted to clarify one point, based on this text:

> I have followed the development of that organization right from the
beginning, where they smartly filled a void by aiming at the
business/commercial side of Open Source geospatial (of course, recently
they publicly pointed out to me, even questioned my sanity, that this was
false, I am dreaming, that they have always focused instead on the same
goals as OSGeo, but readers, do a google search for LT and press release,
and you will see their early visions).

I believe this is in response to what I had brought up on another thread,
and I wanted to make sure I was clear. I did not mean to say that
LocationTech does not aim to fill the void of bringing together the
business/commercial side of the open source community with the
users/developers. I took issue with your claim that *the* core goal of
LocationTech was "to promote business and give those businesses a stage."

As a project lead who's project is incubating at LocationTech and who's
participated in a number of facets of the organization, I have not once
felt the pressure of a business trying to promote themselves through my
work, or that a business was trying to use my work to take some stage. I've
only felt supported as an open source developer in an open source
community. Surely this is a goal of OSGeo as well, to have members of the
open source community feel supported; I would hope that would be in the set
of goals for any organization in our field. That does not mean LocationTech
has the exact same goals as OSGeo; they share goals but have their
differences. The example you rightly point out is that there are specific
aims towards supporting commercial friendly open source, for instance by
connecting the open source development work that is desired on the
commercial side to the support, financial or otherwise, of the businesses
that desire that work. The point in my original response was that to say
"the core" goal of LocationTech was to promote business and give business a
stage, was to imply that LocationTech was at it's core only concerned about
the commercial side's interests and not those of the developers or users. I
don't know that I'm fit to speak for LocationTech as a whole, but again my
experience as a project lead and developer who participates in LocationTech
is that the core of LocationTech is *not* about pushing business and
commercial concerns into my work or my dealings with the community. And for
me, as someone who really believes in the tenets and philosophies of open
source/libre, and who has taken personal effort to remain vigilant about
money and power as a potential poison to workings of a community trying to
operate by those tenets, when someone talks about a whole organization
being at it's core pushing the interests of powerful businesses, I get
nervous. I get scared that the organization might taint the open source
world with it's focus on bottom lines and proprietary ownership. And I
think we should all remain vigilant about the influences of money and
power, and that it's good to call it out if there's suspicion. But it's
also good to call out if an organization is being cast into a poisonous
role unfairly, which is what I've felt like has gone on a lot while reading
discussions (not just by you) on this mailing list.

This is again clarifying a response I had to something you had said
earlier, and I'm not trying to harp on something you had said and would
rather focus on what you are saying now. I appreciate your recent comments
on LocationTech and Andrea's work specifically. I just felt the need to
clarify my point a bit. Again, thanks for the work you put into explaining
yourself, and also the work you do for the community, much of which I'm
sure is very opaque to me but is assumed and appreciated nonetheless.

Best,
Rob

On Sun, Nov 15, 2015 at 2:13 PM, Jeff McKenna  wrote:

> Hi Cameron,
>
> Thank you for your message.  It is very refreshing to speak on this topic
> openly here, as others would rather send me strong private messages
> questioning my sanity, and making threats.  I realize that many cannot be
> open on this topic for various reasons.
>
> Let me assure everyone here that I only have one agenda, which is very
> rare these days, and that is to help the OSGeo foundation.  I am not
> muzzled by fear or threats, and I will stand up for the OSGeo foundation
> whenever that is required.  If by standing up for OSGeo's only event all
> year, FOSS4G, means that I am called "confrontational" and "obstructive",
> then yes you are fully right.
>
> Some may not know this by reading this thread, but I have always been a
> big supporter of LocationTech.  I was involved in the beginning of
> LocationTech, involved in the sense of being one of the first subscribers
> to their mailing list, and I even have had many chats inside 

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo/LocationTech relationship

[Andrea Ross]

On 15/11/15 23:20, Daniel Kastl wrote:

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256



People can and do participate in both OSGeo & LocationTech all the
time.  This is a good thing. It absolutely isn't a zero sum
scenario. The mutually reinforce each other rather than detract
from one another.


I think there is a big difference in how the participation is organized:
With OSGeo you become a member like this: http://www.osgeo.org/Membershi
p
And with LT it works like this:
https://www.locationtech.org/content/become-member and details in
here: https://www.locationtech.org/charter

You could now argue, that participation is not membership. That's right.
But then look at who you participate for in case of LT :
https://www.locationtech.org/members

There is a big "Strategic" at the topic, so to me this means, that
they have a lot to say. And there is a guest sections, which it likely
the opposite.

I don't need to explain, who paid their dollars to become a strategic
member. For them the annual fee is nothing in their overall budget.

The funny thing is, that both (OSGeo and LT) have a "Nondiscrimination
Statement" on their website:

OSGeo: "The Foundation is open to all members of the geospatial
community. We do not discriminate based on age, gender, race,
nationality, religion, sexual orientation, or disability."

LT: "We are committed to making participation in the LocationTech
community a harassment-free experience for everyone, regardless of
level of experience, gender, gender identity and expression, sexual
orientation, disability, personal appearance, body size, race,
ethnicity, age, religion or analogous grounds."

I think you forgot "economic discrimination"!

For me, whether I would be able to pay for a membership or not, it
makes it a very easy decision, where I want to contribute my volunteer
time for.

Sorry, if this slightly moved the thread into a different direction. I
just wanted to agree with Andrea, that LT doesn't have the same goals
in some way: it clearly focuses on the economic strong members of the
organization.

Best regards,
Daniel

PS: you will also recognize from the members, that LT is not a diverse
organization in terms nationalities. Well, you could argue, that IBM,
Oracle and Google are operating globally ;-)




Daniel,

Your email is incorrect and very misleading unfortunately. If you don't 
mind some important clarifications below, I hope they'll help.


You compared organizational membership at LocationTech with individual 
participation at OSGeo. A much better comparison would be to compare 
OSGeo sponsors with LocationTech membership. You'll see they are 
similar. LocationTech members receive formal representation on the board 
which I think is a significant difference worth noting.


For completeness, it's worth mentioning that LocationTech's membership 
model is based on a sliding scale of revenue & employee count. A vote is 
a vote whether it comes from a huge member or tiny one, or a committer. 
I believe this largely covers your concern of economic discrimination. 
Jody mentioned that OSGeo is considering a similar model, which I think 
is a great idea.


You are correct that guest members are observers. They participate, but 
have no formal voting rights. They can upgrade their membership at any 
time should they wish to.


From an individual participation perspective, be it as users, 
contributors, or committers they are quite similar. One significant 
difference is that project committers have dedicated formal 
representation on the LocationTech board.


It's also worth mentioning that as Strategic membership grows, so does 
committer representation to counter-balance. The whole point of the 
Foundation is to provide a structured governance model so that votes 
count equally and keep various influences in balance for the betterment 
of the ecosystem.


You likely also notice that it uses the funding provided by 
organizational members to support the projects, but in a way that does 
not interfere with their independence and self governance. I believe 
that to be quite desirable from a project's perspective. Rob has shared 
his feelings on the matter as well.


I hope this helps,

Andrea
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo/LocationTech relationship

[Andrea Ross]

Jeff,

For what it's worth, I think it's great you shared your vision. If you 
don't mind me saying so, it is important and belongs it a dedicated 
thread IMHO.


You commented on why was LocationTech created rather than within doing 
what it does more tightly within OSGeo. This is important for people to 
understand. In my opinion, a very important reason is that in 2011, when 
OSGeo just fired its executive director and set a very clear direction 
to be a low-capital organization, it was clear that the kinds of things 
that LocationTech does wouldn't be practical at OSGeo. Hiring a bunch of 
staff to perform services for the ecosystem wasn't practical. It still 
may not be today. The governance would have to fundamentally change to 
make this doable. Culturally it might be hard too, which is perhaps part 
of why this conversation is taking place.


At the time, it was felt LocationTech was the fastest/easiest/best path 
to fill the gaps. At the time, it was felt careful stewardship could 
avoid any harm. We are now 3 years in, and with much care taken all 
along, I'm pretty sure no harm has yet befallen OSGeo because of 
LocationTech. And in those 3 years, much benefit has arisen out of 
LocationTech, including many benefits to OSGeo projects & initiatives. 
Even financial benefits.


Many will remember that there were discussions with the OSGeo board & 
anyone who was interested before LocationTech was founded, just as it 
was founded, and many since. So many of the people involved were 
founders of OSGeo, charter members, board members, and active 
participants. They continue to be active today. This is why the 
portrayal of them as outsiders and invaders is so misleading and rather 
unfair.


Jeff, you mention your vision for OSGeo is to be the community for open 
source geospatial everywhere and anywhere. In an open source community, 
people contributing effort to do work that needs doing is a very good 
thing. There's a box around GeoForAll, and that is seen as positive 
thing. Why is it suddenly a bad thing when work is being done at a place 
with a box around it called LocationTech? That box has talented staff 
who specialize in organizing open source (inc. geospatial too) 
conferences for a living. Why not make good use of them for the benefit 
of the community and ecosystem? This is what this thread was all about.


Kind regards,

Andrea

On 15/11/15 21:18, Jeff McKenna wrote:

Hi Andrea,

I have no doubt that you mean well.  I hope that maybe seeing my 
vision for OSGeo, will help explain myself.  I feel that OSGeo and 
LocationTech are in fact different, especially in their visions (which 
would likely be why LocationTech was formed initially, I imagine there 
was a good reason not to help OSGeo grow, not to dedicate that time to 
instead help change OSGeo for the better). I realize that it is too 
late to question why we now have 2 foundations.  I would like to work 
together, but for OSGeo to have its own event, FOSS4G.  I would like 
to discuss LocationTech being more involved in the global FOSS4G, such 
as through sponsorship or special sessions.  I would like to discuss 
OSGeo bring more involved in LocationTech, and am open to your ideas how.


I hope taking all of today (it took me most of today to compile those 
words, which I made many mistakes in ha) helps you see more into my 
vision, and explains who I am and where I want to go.  I am very ok 
with people disagreeing with it.  I took a leadership training course 
for a year (in 2011), and this made me pull out my old Harvard 
Business journal print-outs ha, it was actually a good reason to 
review all of this.  I also know that a vision does not always work, 
and could be rejected by the OSGeo community at large.  I am, 
absolutely putting all of me on the line.


I am prepared for that as well.  Wow, isn't this fun? :)

Talk soon,

-jeff



On 2015-11-15 1:35 PM, Andrea Ross wrote:

Jeff,

Again, you make statements like you have below about me/LocationTech
smoothly courting/calculated/etc going after OSGeo's only source of
revenue. Perhaps you would like to present your evidence for making such
negative statements?

Bear in mind that the ample evidence to the contrary is public. Dave &
Robert have told their stories about how & why they LocationTech as a
conference organizer for their 2017 bids. Michael Terner shared his
story too. There was nothing untoward involved, and everything has been
talked about publicly.

The budget details for those bids are public too and as generous as a
conservative budget allows. The payment is very much in line with the
best payments ever received from a FOSS4G, and OSGeo is not on the hook
for a loss should one occur.

Making such assertions with no evidence to back them up, against much
evidence to the contrary is unfounded and very unprofessional.

The FAQ we published
 


publicly makes the motives very 

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo/LocationTech relationship

[Jorge Sanz]

+1

Well summarized Maxi, thanks.

--
Jorge Sanz

Sent from my phone, excuse my brevity.
El 16/11/2015 07:45, "Massimiliano Cannata" 
escribió:

> Dear all
> Still i don't understand why LocationTech is pressing so much for
> collaborating with osgeo, or share events at least.
> I've never see this from ogc, apache, ICA or any other organization which
> has his own habitat.
>
> When you create LT you decided to build up your way from scratch, so why
> not just follow your paths and let the collaboration happens gradually and
> based on mutually agreed aims and mutual benefit?
>
> Why don't you draft a MOU to the osgeo community and board to understand
> your suggested area of collaboration so that it could be discussed or voted?
>
> This is to me the key aspect without with there could not be any "official
> work together".
>
> Maxi
>
> Il 16/Nov/2015 02:09, "Andrea Ross"  ha scritto:
>
>> Jeff,
>>
>> For what it's worth, I think it's great you shared your vision. If you
>> don't mind me saying so, it is important and belongs it a dedicated thread
>> IMHO.
>>
>> You commented on why was LocationTech created rather than within doing
>> what it does more tightly within OSGeo. This is important for people to
>> understand. In my opinion, a very important reason is that in 2011, when
>> OSGeo just fired its executive director and set a very clear direction to
>> be a low-capital organization, it was clear that the kinds of things that
>> LocationTech does wouldn't be practical at OSGeo. Hiring a bunch of staff
>> to perform services for the ecosystem wasn't practical. It still may not be
>> today. The governance would have to fundamentally change to make this
>> doable. Culturally it might be hard too, which is perhaps part of why this
>> conversation is taking place.
>>
>> At the time, it was felt LocationTech was the fastest/easiest/best path
>> to fill the gaps. At the time, it was felt careful stewardship could avoid
>> any harm. We are now 3 years in, and with much care taken all along, I'm
>> pretty sure no harm has yet befallen OSGeo because of LocationTech. And in
>> those 3 years, much benefit has arisen out of LocationTech, including many
>> benefits to OSGeo projects & initiatives. Even financial benefits.
>>
>> Many will remember that there were discussions with the OSGeo board &
>> anyone who was interested before LocationTech was founded, just as it was
>> founded, and many since. So many of the people involved were founders of
>> OSGeo, charter members, board members, and active participants. They
>> continue to be active today. This is why the portrayal of them as outsiders
>> and invaders is so misleading and rather unfair.
>>
>> Jeff, you mention your vision for OSGeo is to be the community for open
>> source geospatial everywhere and anywhere. In an open source community,
>> people contributing effort to do work that needs doing is a very good
>> thing. There's a box around GeoForAll, and that is seen as positive thing.
>> Why is it suddenly a bad thing when work is being done at a place with a
>> box around it called LocationTech? That box has talented staff who
>> specialize in organizing open source (inc. geospatial too) conferences for
>> a living. Why not make good use of them for the benefit of the community
>> and ecosystem? This is what this thread was all about.
>>
>> Kind regards,
>>
>> Andrea
>>
>> On 15/11/15 21:18, Jeff McKenna wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Andrea,
>>>
>>> I have no doubt that you mean well.  I hope that maybe seeing my vision
>>> for OSGeo, will help explain myself.  I feel that OSGeo and LocationTech
>>> are in fact different, especially in their visions (which would likely be
>>> why LocationTech was formed initially, I imagine there was a good reason
>>> not to help OSGeo grow, not to dedicate that time to instead help change
>>> OSGeo for the better). I realize that it is too late to question why we now
>>> have 2 foundations.  I would like to work together, but for OSGeo to have
>>> its own event, FOSS4G.  I would like to discuss LocationTech being more
>>> involved in the global FOSS4G, such as through sponsorship or special
>>> sessions.  I would like to discuss OSGeo bring more involved in
>>> LocationTech, and am open to your ideas how.
>>>
>>> I hope taking all of today (it took me most of today to compile those
>>> words, which I made many mistakes in ha) helps you see more into my vision,
>>> and explains who I am and where I want to go.  I am very ok with people
>>> disagreeing with it.  I took a leadership training course for a year (in
>>> 2011), and this made me pull out my old Harvard Business journal print-outs
>>> ha, it was actually a good reason to review all of this.  I also know that
>>> a vision does not always work, and could be rejected by the OSGeo community
>>> at large.  I am, absolutely putting all of me on the line.
>>>
>>> I am prepared for that as well.  Wow, isn't this fun? :)
>>>
>>> 

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo/LocationTech relationship

[Massimiliano Cannata]

Dear all
Still i don't understand why LocationTech is pressing so much for
collaborating with osgeo, or share events at least.
I've never see this from ogc, apache, ICA or any other organization which
has his own habitat.

When you create LT you decided to build up your way from scratch, so why
not just follow your paths and let the collaboration happens gradually and
based on mutually agreed aims and mutual benefit?

Why don't you draft a MOU to the osgeo community and board to understand
your suggested area of collaboration so that it could be discussed or voted?

This is to me the key aspect without with there could not be any "official
work together".

Maxi

Il 16/Nov/2015 02:09, "Andrea Ross"  ha scritto:

> Jeff,
>
> For what it's worth, I think it's great you shared your vision. If you
> don't mind me saying so, it is important and belongs it a dedicated thread
> IMHO.
>
> You commented on why was LocationTech created rather than within doing
> what it does more tightly within OSGeo. This is important for people to
> understand. In my opinion, a very important reason is that in 2011, when
> OSGeo just fired its executive director and set a very clear direction to
> be a low-capital organization, it was clear that the kinds of things that
> LocationTech does wouldn't be practical at OSGeo. Hiring a bunch of staff
> to perform services for the ecosystem wasn't practical. It still may not be
> today. The governance would have to fundamentally change to make this
> doable. Culturally it might be hard too, which is perhaps part of why this
> conversation is taking place.
>
> At the time, it was felt LocationTech was the fastest/easiest/best path to
> fill the gaps. At the time, it was felt careful stewardship could avoid any
> harm. We are now 3 years in, and with much care taken all along, I'm pretty
> sure no harm has yet befallen OSGeo because of LocationTech. And in those 3
> years, much benefit has arisen out of LocationTech, including many benefits
> to OSGeo projects & initiatives. Even financial benefits.
>
> Many will remember that there were discussions with the OSGeo board &
> anyone who was interested before LocationTech was founded, just as it was
> founded, and many since. So many of the people involved were founders of
> OSGeo, charter members, board members, and active participants. They
> continue to be active today. This is why the portrayal of them as outsiders
> and invaders is so misleading and rather unfair.
>
> Jeff, you mention your vision for OSGeo is to be the community for open
> source geospatial everywhere and anywhere. In an open source community,
> people contributing effort to do work that needs doing is a very good
> thing. There's a box around GeoForAll, and that is seen as positive thing.
> Why is it suddenly a bad thing when work is being done at a place with a
> box around it called LocationTech? That box has talented staff who
> specialize in organizing open source (inc. geospatial too) conferences for
> a living. Why not make good use of them for the benefit of the community
> and ecosystem? This is what this thread was all about.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Andrea
>
> On 15/11/15 21:18, Jeff McKenna wrote:
>
>> Hi Andrea,
>>
>> I have no doubt that you mean well.  I hope that maybe seeing my vision
>> for OSGeo, will help explain myself.  I feel that OSGeo and LocationTech
>> are in fact different, especially in their visions (which would likely be
>> why LocationTech was formed initially, I imagine there was a good reason
>> not to help OSGeo grow, not to dedicate that time to instead help change
>> OSGeo for the better). I realize that it is too late to question why we now
>> have 2 foundations.  I would like to work together, but for OSGeo to have
>> its own event, FOSS4G.  I would like to discuss LocationTech being more
>> involved in the global FOSS4G, such as through sponsorship or special
>> sessions.  I would like to discuss OSGeo bring more involved in
>> LocationTech, and am open to your ideas how.
>>
>> I hope taking all of today (it took me most of today to compile those
>> words, which I made many mistakes in ha) helps you see more into my vision,
>> and explains who I am and where I want to go.  I am very ok with people
>> disagreeing with it.  I took a leadership training course for a year (in
>> 2011), and this made me pull out my old Harvard Business journal print-outs
>> ha, it was actually a good reason to review all of this.  I also know that
>> a vision does not always work, and could be rejected by the OSGeo community
>> at large.  I am, absolutely putting all of me on the line.
>>
>> I am prepared for that as well.  Wow, isn't this fun? :)
>>
>> Talk soon,
>>
>> -jeff
>>
>>
>>
>> On 2015-11-15 1:35 PM, Andrea Ross wrote:
>>
>>> Jeff,
>>>
>>> Again, you make statements like you have below about me/LocationTech
>>> smoothly courting/calculated/etc going after OSGeo's only source of
>>> revenue. Perhaps you would like to 

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo/LocationTech relationship

[Andrea Ross]

On 13/11/15 15:42, Mateusz Loskot wrote:

On 13 November 2015 at 14:24, Jeff McKenna
 wrote:

why would you create a separate
foundation with the exact same goals, and then later come back to the other
foundation saying "no, we love you.  Give us the right to run your event".

Bang!

Jeff, thank you.

Best regards,


Jeff, Mateusz

I have answered this in my other email but I'll repeat here too in case 
it's helpful. LocationTech was founded, by many of the same founders and 
champions of OSGeo, to fill a gap. It has done a pretty good job of 
this. A bunch of what it does, isn't getting done elsewhere and is 
needed. None of this was intended to harm OSGeo in any way, and so far 
as I can see, hasn't even after 3 years. Feel free to provide any 
evidence you can offer to the contrary.


People can and do participate in both OSGeo & LocationTech all the 
time.  This is a good thing. It absolutely isn't a zero sum scenario. 
The mutually reinforce each other rather than detract from one another.


Apache existed before OSGeo so the same argument could be used there. 
While I can see how it plays to emotions, I'm not sure it's a useful 
argument.


Andrea

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