Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open Source Lurkers
Hi, In India, OpenJUMP has a very good following on windows, as it is much simpler than some costly commercial flavors of GIS. They can at best be called as 'passive users', who even do not (care to) know that a list exists on the internet. Some Indian universities have started using OpenJUMP for vector GIS. Ravi Kumar --- On Sat, 22/8/09, Daniel Ames amesd...@isu.edu wrote: From: Daniel Ames amesd...@isu.edu Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open Source Lurkers To: OSGeo Discussions discuss@lists.osgeo.org Date: Saturday, 22 August, 2009, 10:24 AM Landon, et al. I'm aware of this phenomenon in the MapWindow community as well. It is particularly prominent with non-English speaking folks who, for a number of reasons (mostly described by Bill below) don't feel comfortable joining the conversation and openly participating in the project. I think there is another clear reason for this behavior... they sometimes just don't know that they are welcome/invited. This might be more of a pronounced problem for those of us developing specifically for Windows because Windows users have historically been told that they are not allowed to participate. However it's also a phenomenon of GIS in general. When was the last time that the major GIS software vendor asked it's customers to actively join in writing documentation, answering forum questions and - heaven forbid - fixing bugs. So how do you fix this. Well all I can think is to continually invite invite invite. Everytime someone posts a forum question, give an answer and then invite them to answer other people's questions. When people ask for bug fixes, invite them to fix a big - or to hire someone to do it. Any time you get a personal communication, invite them to do something on the project. This has helped a lot with our project, and I think we've landed some awesome project participants (some of whom are likely reading this now!) by letting them know how much we need them, and inviting them over and over to participate. That's my suggestion anyway, Dan On Sat, Aug 22, 2009 at 4:53 AM, Bill Thoen bth...@gisnet.com wrote: I've been a moderator for a commercial desktop mapping forum for more than 10 years and this behavior is quite common. I think it has more to do with how people adapt to a social network than it has to do with anything unique in the Open Source world. Like Chris mentioned, the majority of subscribers prefer to lurk below the public visibility horizon in a way that resembles an iceberg where only the tip remains above the waterline while the majority of its bulk lurks below. People lurk for many of the reasons you suggest, but I think the most common one is that they don't feel expert enough to contribute anything useful to a thread, and the risk of saying something stoopid --in public... and worse, thus revealing to their GIS/mapping peers the depth of their ignorance-- is just too embarrassing to contemplate. Especially when compared with the perceived safety of remaining anonymous in the shadows where they can drink in new knowledge like free beer while also being entertained by the interplay of the forum's regularly featured fools and sages. If we assume that Maslow was right about what motivates people (self-interest) then lurking in an open source community and not participating is exactly the wrong thing to do. If your business depends on some FOSS tool, then it's in your self-interest to expand the environment in which it operates as much as possible. Because if what you sell depends on tools like OpenJUMP, you want OpenJUMP well supported with a lively user group, a good supply of free data, technologically competitive, and actively being developed. This is the key to making money out of bits instead of atoms. If you sell services, give away the software and the infrastructure of the environment it runs in. This expands the market for your services and since the tools are free, the more people who download them the bigger your market share gets. If you sell software, give away services that leverage it. But if you lurk and don't contribute to its development or the development of the environment in which it operates, then you're sort of stepping on your own air hose. - Bill Thoen Landon Blake wrote: I would like to get some comments on a phenomenon I have discovered among the OpenJUMP community. I know for sure of one (1) company that maintains a separate fork of OpenJUMP, but which monitors our mailing list and likely grabs patches form our source code repository. They never participate in the forums or make known their use of OpenJUMP in any other public manner. I think there is at least one other company that does this. I only learn of these companies when I am contacted by private e-mail to work for them on OpenJUMP development, usually by some
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open Source Lurkers
Evening Landon: As you have gathered from the responses thus far that lurkers are actually the larger part of the user community - and do not really represent an opportunity to acquire new developers for your project. The point is that they are part of the user community; and are probably not in a position or motivation to become part of the development community. Some tips for involving them: - make sure project wiki; issue tracker etc is very open to input What to do when they email you directly: - This is a hard one; they are asking for free support; and are too shy or unable to go to the public email list - I answer (or point out docs) and remind them that LISAsoft offers commercial support; and that free support from fellow users is available on the email lists - If they have an issue I may turn their issue into an item on the bug tracker; and invite them to add comments with more details. I find it easier to show how to make a good bug report (but other developers have helpful links about how to make a bug report). What happens next is kind of up to the reaction... If they launch into the issue tracker; or user list; and start interacting with community members: - if it is a documentation or api question I will write a wiki page and ask them to review. - If it is a bug - It is time to start talking about patches; creating them; attaching them to the bug tracker; and so on. - The first time I will facilitate this process; often using IRC or something - Chances are if they have started down this road they are going to have a successful open source experience and after a few months (6 months to a year) it is time to start talking to them about commit access and taking a larger role. If they persist in contacting me directly: - If they are contacting me by my work email address - I usually feel comfortable phoning and/or asking talking to their boss about commercial support options at this stage :-) - If they persist in contacting me directly; I will start to CC my responses to the public email list (I change my note about commercial support to a link to all the organizations offering commercial support as it is not great to advertise). There is the risk of of course deeply offending someone and/or getting them in trouble - this is balanced by the risk of being taken advantage of. - Chances are If they start down this road I will hook them up with one of the companies supporting GeoTools (on a good day it will be a company I work for) What is fascinating to me is how well some of the distributed version control technologies are geared towards allowing groups to have a shadow copy of a project. Maybe I should reword that as an internal version of a project; it is actually a really good practice; offering a balance between Sticking behind on a stable version vs the risk of using the latest. It really provides a programming team to control the software they are getting from the community at a different pace then the release cycle; it is also really good in that these teams can live and breath patches - and can hire you to fix problems. What is more difficult is explaining about how LGPL means that the work they do internally needs to come out :-) But that is a topic for another day ... Cheers, Jody On 22/08/2009, at 4:55 AM, Landon Blake wrote: I would like to get some comments on a phenomenon I have discovered among the OpenJUMP community. I know for sure of one (1) company that maintains a separate fork of OpenJUMP, but which monitors our mailing list and likely grabs patches form our source code repository. They never participate in the forums or make known their use of OpenJUMP in any other public manner. I think there is at least one other company that does this. I only learn of these companies when I am contacted by private e- mail to work for them on OpenJUMP development, usually by some headhunter. I actually did a little work for one of these companies (which was not a great experience, but that is another story) and I was surprised at how important OpenJUMP was to their operation. They even distributed it to their customers. I couldn’t for the life of me figure out why this company wouldn’t take a more active role in supporting the OpenJUMP community. I’m not necessarily talking about money here, but about writing documentation, contributing their own patches, or answering questions on the mailing lists. Our community is very informal and open, and an organization could likely have a large influence on the direction the program took with an investment of some resources. Is OpenJUMP the only community with these open source lurkers? How many of these companies do you think there are? (I’m not talking about one guy who downloads an open source app and uses it. I’m talking about actual companies with more than one employee.) Why don’t they get more involved?
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open Source Lurkers
Jody, Thank you for all of your comments. They were insightful. I should point out that I don't get really bothered by the private contacts, which aren't that frequent, and was more interested in finding a way to get lurkers more involved. It seems this is more challenging than I first realized. Landon Office Phone Number: (209) 946-0268 Cell Phone Number: (209) 992-0658 From: discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org [mailto:discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org] On Behalf Of Jody Garnett Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 6:31 AM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open Source Lurkers Evening Landon: As you have gathered from the responses thus far that lurkers are actually the larger part of the user community - and do not really represent an opportunity to acquire new developers for your project. The point is that they are part of the user community; and are probably not in a position or motivation to become part of the development community. Some tips for involving them: - make sure project wiki; issue tracker etc is very open to input What to do when they email you directly: - This is a hard one; they are asking for free support; and are too shy or unable to go to the public email list - I answer (or point out docs) and remind them that LISAsoft offers commercial support; and that free support from fellow users is available on the email lists - If they have an issue I may turn their issue into an item on the bug tracker; and invite them to add comments with more details. I find it easier to show how to make a good bug report (but other developers have helpful links about how to make a bug report). What happens next is kind of up to the reaction... If they launch into the issue tracker; or user list; and start interacting with community members: - if it is a documentation or api question I will write a wiki page and ask them to review. - If it is a bug - It is time to start talking about patches; creating them; attaching them to the bug tracker; and so on. - The first time I will facilitate this process; often using IRC or something - Chances are if they have started down this road they are going to have a successful open source experience and after a few months (6 months to a year) it is time to start talking to them about commit access and taking a larger role. If they persist in contacting me directly: - If they are contacting me by my work email address - I usually feel comfortable phoning and/or asking talking to their boss about commercial support options at this stage :-) - If they persist in contacting me directly; I will start to CC my responses to the public email list (I change my note about commercial support to a link to all the organizations offering commercial support as it is not great to advertise). There is the risk of of course deeply offending someone and/or getting them in trouble - this is balanced by the risk of being taken advantage of. - Chances are If they start down this road I will hook them up with one of the companies supporting GeoTools (on a good day it will be a company I work for) What is fascinating to me is how well some of the distributed version control technologies are geared towards allowing groups to have a shadow copy of a project. Maybe I should reword that as an internal version of a project; it is actually a really good practice; offering a balance between Sticking behind on a stable version vs the risk of using the latest. It really provides a programming team to control the software they are getting from the community at a different pace then the release cycle; it is also really good in that these teams can live and breath patches - and can hire you to fix problems. What is more difficult is explaining about how LGPL means that the work they do internally needs to come out :-) But that is a topic for another day ... Cheers, Jody On 22/08/2009, at 4:55 AM, Landon Blake wrote: I would like to get some comments on a phenomenon I have discovered among the OpenJUMP community. I know for sure of one (1) company that maintains a separate fork of OpenJUMP, but which monitors our mailing list and likely grabs patches form our source code repository. They never participate in the forums or make known their use of OpenJUMP in any other public manner. I think there is at least one other company that does this. I only learn of these companies when I am contacted by private e-mail to work for them on OpenJUMP development, usually by some headhunter. I actually did a little work for one of these companies (which was not a great experience, but that is another story) and I was surprised at how important OpenJUMP was to their operation. They even distributed it to their customers. I couldn't for the life of me figure out why this company wouldn't take a more active role in supporting the OpenJUMP community. I'm not necessarily talking about
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open Source Lurkers
On 2009/08/21 11:55 AM, Landon Blake wrote: I would like to get some comments on a phenomenon I have discovered among the OpenJUMP community. I know for sure of one (1) company that maintains a separate fork of OpenJUMP, but which monitors our mailing list and likely grabs patches form our source code repository. They never participate in the forums or make known their use of OpenJUMP in any other public manner. I couldn't for the life of me figure out why this company wouldn't take a more active role in supporting the OpenJUMP community. Some companies, governments, and institutions have policies in place that prohibit or limit the ability of employees to 'participate' on forums or mailing lists. Lurking by reading blogs, list archives, forum postings, etc. may be allowed, but employees may not be permitted, during 'work hours' to participate. For some people, if it's 'about the job' they won't then use their own off-work time to participate, and even for those that do, they may be prohibited from making any mention that they work for company X, so you may have participation from one or more people from company X, but not know it. -- Dave Patton CIS Canadian Information Systems Victoria, B.C. Degree Confluence Project: Canadian Coordinator Technical Coordinator http://www.confluence.org/ Personal website: Maps, GPS, etc. http://members.shaw.ca/davepatton/ ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
[OSGeo-Discuss] Open Source Lurkers
I would like to get some comments on a phenomenon I have discovered among the OpenJUMP community. I know for sure of one (1) company that maintains a separate fork of OpenJUMP, but which monitors our mailing list and likely grabs patches form our source code repository. They never participate in the forums or make known their use of OpenJUMP in any other public manner. I think there is at least one other company that does this. I only learn of these companies when I am contacted by private e-mail to work for them on OpenJUMP development, usually by some headhunter. I actually did a little work for one of these companies (which was not a great experience, but that is another story) and I was surprised at how important OpenJUMP was to their operation. They even distributed it to their customers. I couldn't for the life of me figure out why this company wouldn't take a more active role in supporting the OpenJUMP community. I'm not necessarily talking about money here, but about writing documentation, contributing their own patches, or answering questions on the mailing lists. Our community is very informal and open, and an organization could likely have a large influence on the direction the program took with an investment of some resources. Is OpenJUMP the only community with these open source lurkers? How many of these companies do you think there are? (I'm not talking about one guy who downloads an open source app and uses it. I'm talking about actual companies with more than one employee.) Why don't they get more involved? Are they embarrassed? Do they not want their competition to find out about the open source program they are benefiting from? Are they violating the terms of the license and don't want to get busted? Do they not understand that their involvement is a key part of the program's survival? This has become an important question for me recently as the active development of OpenJUMP has slowed. We don't have any organizations actively participating in development. (Well, maybe one or two, but they have been quiet lately.) I'm the only one working on serious improvements or changes, and not just bug fixes. I would really like to reach out to these lurkers to get them more involved. Ultimately, the survival of the project may depend on it. What do you think? Send an e-mail to the project list with an invitation to contact me privately about getting more involved? Are these lurkers worth the time? Landon Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately.___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open Source Lurkers
On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 11:55:30AM -0700, Landon Blake wrote: Is OpenJUMP the only community with these open source lurkers? No. How many of these companies do you think there are? (I'm not talking about one guy who downloads an open source app and uses it. I'm talking about actual companies with more than one employee.) The majority. I figure it's approximately equal to the iceberg effect: Unless you are a consultant advertising your services far and wide, my guess is that for every one company you see participating openly in an Open Source project, there are probably about 9 that are using the software without you having any clue. Why don't they get more involved? * No need: When Open Source solves the problem, you don't need to get involved. * No time: We'd love to participate more, but we've got our own problems to solve -- and they don't match those of the community. * No understanding: We download this software just like all of our other software. What's a mailing list? * Not enough encouragement. Gtting started in an open source project can be a daunting task even for the well-educated in the open source world; for those who aren't, it's an order of magnitude more difficult Are they embarrassed? Do they not want their competition to find out about the open source program they are benefiting from? Are they violating the terms of the license and don't want to get busted? I think these are generally unlikely. Do they not understand that their involvement is a key part of the program's survival? It is likely they do not, in my opinoin; and in this, they may well be right. The software existed before they started using it; it is likely it will exist in some form afterwards as well. This has become an important question for me recently as the active development of OpenJUMP has slowed. We don't have any organizations actively participating in development. (Well, maybe one or two, but they have been quiet lately.) I'm the only one working on serious improvements or changes, and not just bug fixes. I would really like to reach out to these lurkers to get them more involved. Ultimately, the survival of the project may depend on it. See also: OpenLayers. Regards, -- Christopher Schmidt Web Developer ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open Source Lurkers
Thank you for your comments Christopher. I may just try my mailing list invitation, and will let you guys know how it works out. If there are other ideas on outreach of this type, I would like to hear it. I think the ultimate success of my favorite little GIS program may depend on the results of this outreach. Landon Office Phone Number: (209) 946-0268 Cell Phone Number: (209) 992-0658 -Original Message- From: discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org [mailto:discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org] On Behalf Of Christopher Schmidt Sent: Friday, August 21, 2009 12:16 PM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open Source Lurkers On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 11:55:30AM -0700, Landon Blake wrote: Is OpenJUMP the only community with these open source lurkers? No. How many of these companies do you think there are? (I'm not talking about one guy who downloads an open source app and uses it. I'm talking about actual companies with more than one employee.) The majority. I figure it's approximately equal to the iceberg effect: Unless you are a consultant advertising your services far and wide, my guess is that for every one company you see participating openly in an Open Source project, there are probably about 9 that are using the software without you having any clue. Why don't they get more involved? * No need: When Open Source solves the problem, you don't need to get involved. * No time: We'd love to participate more, but we've got our own problems to solve -- and they don't match those of the community. * No understanding: We download this software just like all of our other software. What's a mailing list? * Not enough encouragement. Gtting started in an open source project can be a daunting task even for the well-educated in the open source world; for those who aren't, it's an order of magnitude more difficult Are they embarrassed? Do they not want their competition to find out about the open source program they are benefiting from? Are they violating the terms of the license and don't want to get busted? I think these are generally unlikely. Do they not understand that their involvement is a key part of the program's survival? It is likely they do not, in my opinoin; and in this, they may well be right. The software existed before they started using it; it is likely it will exist in some form afterwards as well. This has become an important question for me recently as the active development of OpenJUMP has slowed. We don't have any organizations actively participating in development. (Well, maybe one or two, but they have been quiet lately.) I'm the only one working on serious improvements or changes, and not just bug fixes. I would really like to reach out to these lurkers to get them more involved. Ultimately, the survival of the project may depend on it. See also: OpenLayers. Regards, -- Christopher Schmidt Web Developer ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open Source Lurkers
Landon Blake wrote: What do you think? Send an e-mail to the project list with an invitation to contact me privately about getting more involved? Are these lurkers worth the time? I would write a post on my blog: *** Wow! This is a fantastic news! I've just been told that the big company X has used OpenJUMP in development of their supper-dupper and even more expansive product Y for long long time. Every time we discover such story, it's terribly encouraging to us, the OpenJUMP team, because it means we do an amazing job of yet higher quality and even more usable than we've thought. Thank you company X for such a proof of appreciation! Dear X, keep watching and new features will keep coming. *** Best regards, -- Mateusz Loskot, http://mateusz.loskot.net Charter Member of OSGeo, http://osgeo.org ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open Source Lurkers
Thanks for the suggestion Mateusz. Unfortunately I don't know who Company X is. The blog post is a good idea though. Landon Office Phone Number: (209) 946-0268 Cell Phone Number: (209) 992-0658 -Original Message- From: discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org [mailto:discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org] On Behalf Of Mateusz Loskot Sent: Friday, August 21, 2009 1:49 PM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open Source Lurkers Landon Blake wrote: What do you think? Send an e-mail to the project list with an invitation to contact me privately about getting more involved? Are these lurkers worth the time? I would write a post on my blog: *** Wow! This is a fantastic news! I've just been told that the big company X has used OpenJUMP in development of their supper-dupper and even more expansive product Y for long long time. Every time we discover such story, it's terribly encouraging to us, the OpenJUMP team, because it means we do an amazing job of yet higher quality and even more usable than we've thought. Thank you company X for such a proof of appreciation! Dear X, keep watching and new features will keep coming. *** Best regards, -- Mateusz Loskot, http://mateusz.loskot.net Charter Member of OSGeo, http://osgeo.org ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open Source Lurkers
I've been a moderator for a commercial desktop mapping forum for more than 10 years and this behavior is quite common. I think it has more to do with how people adapt to a social network than it has to do with anything unique in the Open Source world. Like Chris mentioned, the majority of subscribers prefer to lurk below the public visibility horizon in a way that resembles an iceberg where only the tip remains above the waterline while the majority of its bulk lurks below. People lurk for many of the reasons you suggest, but I think the most common one is that they don't feel expert enough to contribute anything useful to a thread, and the risk of saying something stoopid --in public... and worse, thus revealing to their GIS/mapping peers the depth of their ignorance-- is just too embarrassing to contemplate. Especially when compared with the perceived safety of remaining anonymous in the shadows where they can drink in new knowledge like free beer while also being entertained by the interplay of the forum's regularly featured fools and sages. If we assume that Maslow was right about what motivates people (self-interest) then lurking in an open source community and not participating is exactly the wrong thing to do. If your business depends on some FOSS tool, then it's in your self-interest to expand the environment in which it operates as much as possible. Because if what you sell depends on tools like OpenJUMP, you want OpenJUMP well supported with a lively user group, a good supply of free data, technologically competitive, and actively being developed. This is the key to making money out of bits instead of atoms. If you sell services, give away the software and the infrastructure of the environment it runs in. This expands the market for your services and since the tools are free, the more people who download them the bigger your market share gets. If you sell software, give away services that leverage it. But if you lurk and don't contribute to its development or the development of the environment in which it operates, then you're sort of stepping on your own air hose. - Bill Thoen Landon Blake wrote: I would like to get some comments on a phenomenon I have discovered among the OpenJUMP community. I know for sure of one (1) company that maintains a separate fork of OpenJUMP, but which monitors our mailing list and likely grabs patches form our source code repository. They never participate in the forums or make known their use of OpenJUMP in any other public manner. I think there is at least one other company that does this. I only learn of these companies when I am contacted by private e-mail to work for them on OpenJUMP development, usually by some headhunter. I actually did a little work for one of these companies (which was not a great experience, but that is another story) and I was surprised at how important OpenJUMP was to their operation. They even distributed it to their customers. I couldn’t for the life of me figure out why this company wouldn’t take a more active role in supporting the OpenJUMP community. I’m not necessarily talking about money here, but about writing documentation, contributing their own patches, or answering questions on the mailing lists. Our community is very informal and open, and an organization could likely have a large influence on the direction the program took with an investment of some resources. Is OpenJUMP the only community with these open source lurkers? How many of these companies do you think there are? (I’m not talking about one guy who downloads an open source app and uses it. I’m talking about actual companies with more than one employee.) Why don’t they get more involved? Are they embarrassed? Do they not want their competition to find out about the open source program they are benefiting from? Are they violating the terms of the license and don’t want to get busted? Do they not understand that their involvement is a key part of the program’s survival? This has become an important question for me recently as the active development of OpenJUMP has slowed. We don’t have any organizations actively participating in development. (Well, maybe one or two, but they have been quiet lately.) I’m the only one working on serious improvements or changes, and not just bug fixes. I would really like to reach out to these lurkers to get them more involved. Ultimately, the survival of the project may depend on it. What do you think? Send an e-mail to the project list with an invitation to contact me privately about getting more involved? Are these lurkers worth the time? Landon *Warning: *Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open Source Lurkers
Hi Landon, What I feel it is also part of Me-too effect when such a event happens. for eg. If a person from X company is using any of the Open Source Intiative. His/Her collegue from their own or some other division/company find out they start there own endavour to get to it without any contribution or effort been returned or even collabrate with previous person. And other than that, also there come part of fear where in the company X may or may not be ready to reveal that output generate is from any utility of opensource and is as good as the output from Commerical software. They stake their creditablity to commerical product rather than opensource one. And just to beat the cost factor of the Commerical License they use Open Source. Rgds Abhay. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
