Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Comparision between MapServer/OpenLayers and ESRI ArcIMS
John, Your information here is fantastic, and I'd love to see it worked into a case study. This is the sort of information that Government departments ask for all the time. This Open Source stuff sounds great, but who else has used it? Are there any case studies that we can look over? If you created a good case study talking about how you helped a high profile client move from ESRI Arc GIS server to Open Source, it would likely become one of the most widely referenced documents in OSGeo marketing. If you do write a case study, make sure it is linked from this web page: http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Case_Studies We are also looking to see a presentation or two like this at the FOSS4G conference this year. This could potentially be done by a couple of people talking about more than one case. (Presentations are due in one week, on 8 June.) http://2009.foss4g.org John Callahan wrote: To follow up re: status of ArcIMS I just checked the ESRI site, clicked on Products, Server GIS and ArcIMS is nowhere to be found. As well, if you select Training and search for courses, you will find exactly zero instructor-led courses for ArcIMS. (ArcIMS is also listed under Other Products in the Training section.)So, as far as I'm concerned, ArcIMS is dead and everything goes through ArcGIS Server with ESRI. - John Bill Thoen wrote: Thanks for the help folks, especially to John Callahan. That was the best description of the problem with the ESRI solution that I've seen to date. What they offer may be good or not --I don't have the experience to argue that point-- but they are even more expensive that I had imagined. I'm very impressed with ESRI's marketing -- if they can sell this, they could sell snow to Santa Claus! Regards, - Bill Thoen ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss -- Cameron Shorter Geospatial Systems Architect Tel: +61 (0)2 8570 5050 Mob: +61 (0)419 142 254 Think Globally, Fix Locally Geospatial Solutions enhanced with Open Standards and Open Source http://www.lisasoft.com ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Comparision between MapServer/OpenLayers and ESRI ArcIMS
To follow up re: status of ArcIMS I just checked the ESRI site, clicked on Products, Server GIS and ArcIMS is nowhere to be found. As well, if you select Training and search for courses, you will find exactly zero instructor-led courses for ArcIMS. (ArcIMS is also listed under Other Products in the Training section.)So, as far as I'm concerned, ArcIMS is dead and everything goes through ArcGIS Server with ESRI. - John Bill Thoen wrote: Thanks for the help folks, especially to John Callahan. That was the best description of the problem with the ESRI solution that I've seen to date. What they offer may be good or not --I don't have the experience to argue that point-- but they are even more expensive that I had imagined. I'm very impressed with ESRI's marketing -- if they can sell this, they could sell snow to Santa Claus! Regards, - Bill Thoen ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Comparision between MapServer/OpenLayers and ESRI ArcIMS
Thanks for the help folks, especially to John Callahan. That was the best description of the problem with the ESRI solution that I've seen to date. What they offer may be good or not --I don't have the experience to argue that point-- but they are even more expensive that I had imagined. I'm very impressed with ESRI's marketing -- if they can sell this, they could sell snow to Santa Claus! Regards, - Bill Thoen ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Comparision between MapServer/OpenLayers and ESRI ArcIMS
And don't forget to talk about the costs of exit. Becoming very popular in IT procurement discussions, that one. Openness means very low cost of exit, proprietary software licencing businesses are dependent on a high cost of exit. Proprietary software sales requires evidence of previous sales of snow to people living North of Resolute as an entry point to the career ;) Chris - Bill Thoen bth...@gisnet.com wrote: Thanks for the help folks, especially to John Callahan. That was the best description of the problem with the ESRI solution that I've seen to date. What they offer may be good or not --I don't have the experience to argue that point-- but they are even more expensive that I had imagined. I'm very impressed with ESRI's marketing -- if they can sell this, they could sell snow to Santa Claus! Regards, - Bill Thoen ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss -- Files attached to this email may be in ISO 26300 format (OASIS Open Document Format). If you have difficulty opening them, please visit http://iso26300.info for more information. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
[OSGeo-Discuss] Comparision between MapServer/OpenLayers and ESRI ArcIMS
I need to make a case for developing a map and data server using Open Source software such as MapServer, Open Layers, PostgereSQL/PostGIS to counter a proposal to go with ESRI's solutions. The client who this would be directed to manages a lot of land parcels on which some development is planned. As part of the support for this, the object is to build an Internet-accessible server that maintains about 800Gb of spatial and tabular data, that can provide interactive maps of the properties, data downloads of selected areas and layers in shapefile, AutoCAD and other formats. It also needs to generate 3D surfaces from dense LiDAR data that's available. It also needs a database cataloging system that can be searched for data held in the system. Finally, it needs to provide different access privileges to various personnel who will be using restricted data sets. So what I need are some *current* facts about what packages are needed to do this completely with ESRI software and what it will cost. Have any of you had to address this 800-lb gorilla problem recently and do you have any advice or facts I can use? I have to present my case to people who don't know much about GIS so I think price is going to be my best argument. So far, all I've been able to ascertain is that an Internet license for ArcIMS costs about $9 - $10K per dual core machine per year. Is that true? And don't you also need ArcSDE for the database connection, and some Arc3D for surface generation from LiDAR and copies of ArcGIS all around, and is data downloading even available through ArcIMS? What functionality comes out-of-the-box with ESRI's tools that meets what I've listed above? Is there something in the ESRI stable that can maintain differential, password-protected user access? How much would still have to be developed? And what about training and staff to maintain the system? What's that cost? If anyone has answers to any of these questions I'd be grateful if you could give me some facts. As it stands I can put those questions out for consideration, but I'd like to know the answers too. Thanks, - Bill Thoen ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Comparision between MapServer/OpenLayers and ESRI ArcIMS
i am glad if we can compare with GeoServer also :) F On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 6:04 AM, Bill Thoen bth...@gisnet.com wrote: I need to make a case for developing a map and data server using Open Source software such as MapServer, Open Layers, PostgereSQL/PostGIS to counter a proposal to go with ESRI's solutions. The client who this would be directed to manages a lot of land parcels on which some development is planned. As part of the support for this, the object is to build an Internet-accessible server that maintains about 800Gb of spatial and tabular data, that can provide interactive maps of the properties, data downloads of selected areas and layers in shapefile, AutoCAD and other formats. It also needs to generate 3D surfaces from dense LiDAR data that's available. It also needs a database cataloging system that can be searched for data held in the system. Finally, it needs to provide different access privileges to various personnel who will be using restricted data sets. So what I need are some *current* facts about what packages are needed to do this completely with ESRI software and what it will cost. Have any of you had to address this 800-lb gorilla problem recently and do you have any advice or facts I can use? I have to present my case to people who don't know much about GIS so I think price is going to be my best argument. So far, all I've been able to ascertain is that an Internet license for ArcIMS costs about $9 - $10K per dual core machine per year. Is that true? And don't you also need ArcSDE for the database connection, and some Arc3D for surface generation from LiDAR and copies of ArcGIS all around, and is data downloading even available through ArcIMS? What functionality comes out-of-the-box with ESRI's tools that meets what I've listed above? Is there something in the ESRI stable that can maintain differential, password-protected user access? How much would still have to be developed? And what about training and staff to maintain the system? What's that cost? If anyone has answers to any of these questions I'd be grateful if you could give me some facts. As it stands I can put those questions out for consideration, but I'd like to know the answers too. Thanks, - Bill Thoen ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss -- -- Frans Thamura Meruvian. Java and Enterprise OSS Mobile: +62 855 7888 699 Blog Profile: http://frans.thamura.info We provide services to migrate your apps to Java (web), in amazing fast and reliable. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Comparision between MapServer/OpenLayers and ESRI ArcIMS
I've dealt with this question before but not quite with those specifics. Actually, I've had these issues from a different angle: people who already have the ESRI suite because their larger company or government agency purchased an ESRI enterprise license yet they were looking at open source as a serious option. Hopefully some of this can help... My first thought is that a current ESRI solution would be based on ArcGIS Server rather than ArcIMS. ArcIMS is basically gone (the 2008 Dev Summit had ZERO tech sessions on ArcIMS but did have a few migration to ArcGIS server topics. On the current ESRI support site for ArcIMS life cycle, they do NOT mention a 9.4 release (current is 9.3.1) although they do for ArcGIS Desktop and ArcGIS Server. The ArcIMS Data Delivery Extension is not being sold any more. ArcIMS could do basic clip-n-ship using the Extract Server but that is only available using the old AXL image services and NOT the ArcMap services.I've heard trusted rumors (from some ESRI staff at tech shows and conferences) that ArcGIS Server is where ESRI has been putting all their energy for the past few years. ArcGIS Server (AGS) costs quite a bit, up to 4 cores it's about $32K - $40K per server for the advanced, enterprise level.This Advanced version includes the 3D, Spatial, Network and Geostatistical extenions. It does not include the Data Interoperability extension (based on FME Safe and typically used for data ETL tasks) or the Image Server extension (used for real-time display of rasters in various bands and combinations, like NDVI) Extensions are about 4K - 8K each. The Enterprise licenses mean it includes more features plus ArcSDE for major RDBMS like Oracle SQL Server. The Workgroup version includes a limited ArcSDE for Workgroups. Enterprise ArcSDE (and therefore Enterprise ArcGIS Server) is almost *required* for anything data delivery system greater than a few GB and especially if web based. For more pricing, here are a few I found... https://www.gsaadvantage.gov/ (search for arcgis server) http://www.eyaktek.com/public/ESRI%20Catalog%2006-20-08.xls http://www.esri.com/partners/hardware/ibm-advanced-enterprise.pdf For data processing and delivery, like LIDAR processing and anything that would result from a model, is typically done either 1) via Model Builder, python scripts in the ArcMap MXD document (typically unstable), or 2) via ArcObjects coding through the NET or Java APIs (the Interface OO programming is difficult to learn). Recently, quite a lot is done through ArcGIS Desktop (ArcMap.) ArcCatalog is used to fully manage AGS. There is a web application for managing AGS but it can't do everything that ArcCatalog can do, critical things like map caching. (at least that was the case in 9.2.) So, yes, you'll need quite a few ArcGIS Desktops. You'll need ArcEditor (~$5K) versions for writing to ArcSDE. You'll need ArcInfo level (~$14K) for creating the models to be processed in AGS. This does not include desktop extensions which run about $2.5K each. Plus, many advanced feature of AGS (that you see in demos or brochures) are only accessible via thick AGS clients like ArcGIS DEsktop or ArcGIS Explorer. Remember the initial primary purpose for AGS was was a desktop GIS server, like a replacement for the old ArcInfo 7x geoprocessing server. It was to push centralized GIS processing, editing, mobile checkin/checkout, geocoding, etc... Traditional web applications (replacement for ArcIMS) came later. - John ** John Callahan Geospatial Application Developer Delaware Geological Survey, University of Delaware 227 Academy St, Newark DE 19716-7501 Tel: (302) 831-3584 Email: john.calla...@udel.edu http://www.dgs.udel.edu ** Bill Thoen wrote: I need to make a case for developing a map and data server using Open Source software such as MapServer, Open Layers, PostgereSQL/PostGIS to counter a proposal to go with ESRI's solutions. The client who this would be directed to manages a lot of land parcels on which some development is planned. As part of the support for this, the object is to build an Internet-accessible server that maintains about 800Gb of spatial and tabular data, that can provide interactive maps of the properties, data downloads of selected areas and layers in shapefile, AutoCAD and other formats. It also needs to generate 3D surfaces from dense LiDAR data that's available. It also needs a database cataloging system that can be searched for data held in the system. Finally, it needs to provide different access privileges to various personnel who will be using restricted data sets. So what I need are some *current* facts about what packages are needed to do this completely with ESRI software and what it will cost. Have any of you had to address this 800-lb gorilla problem
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Comparision between MapServer/OpenLayers and ESRI ArcIMS
A couple more suggestions: - make sure to include either tile server or geowebcache in the mix to minimize hardware costs - try and cost for a three year window in order to capture the respective difference in license costs - where ESRI is already used I normally do not suggest open source as an alternative - but as an extension (you will get a more capable WMS instance by dropping geoserver ontop of your existing esri stack for example). Helping pull together this kind of information is something LISAsoft is good at (an I am sure other consulting organizations). Jody On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 9:04 AM, Bill Thoen bth...@gisnet.com wrote: I need to make a case for developing a map and data server using Open Source software such as MapServer, Open Layers, PostgereSQL/PostGIS to counter a proposal to go with ESRI's solutions. The client who this would be directed to manages a lot of land parcels on which some development is planned. As part of the support for this, the object is to build an Internet-accessible server that maintains about 800Gb of spatial and tabular data, that can provide interactive maps of the properties, data downloads of selected areas and layers in shapefile, AutoCAD and other formats. It also needs to generate 3D surfaces from dense LiDAR data that's available. It also needs a database cataloging system that can be searched for data held in the system. Finally, it needs to provide different access privileges to various personnel who will be using restricted data sets. So what I need are some *current* facts about what packages are needed to do this completely with ESRI software and what it will cost. Have any of you had to address this 800-lb gorilla problem recently and do you have any advice or facts I can use? I have to present my case to people who don't know much about GIS so I think price is going to be my best argument. So far, all I've been able to ascertain is that an Internet license for ArcIMS costs about $9 - $10K per dual core machine per year. Is that true? And don't you also need ArcSDE for the database connection, and some Arc3D for surface generation from LiDAR and copies of ArcGIS all around, and is data downloading even available through ArcIMS? What functionality comes out-of-the-box with ESRI's tools that meets what I've listed above? Is there something in the ESRI stable that can maintain differential, password-protected user access? How much would still have to be developed? And what about training and staff to maintain the system? What's that cost? If anyone has answers to any of these questions I'd be grateful if you could give me some facts. As it stands I can put those questions out for consideration, but I'd like to know the answers too. Thanks, - Bill Thoen ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Comparision between MapServer/OpenLayers and ESRI ArcIMS
On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 8:38 AM, John Callahan john.calla...@udel.edu wrote: I've dealt with this question before but not quite with those specifics. Actually, I've had these issues from a different angle: people who already have the ESRI suite because their larger company or government agency purchased an ESRI enterprise license yet they were looking at open source as a serious option. Hopefully some of this can help... My first thought is that a current ESRI solution would be based on ArcGIS Server rather than ArcIMS. ArcIMS is basically gone (the 2008 Dev Summit had ZERO tech sessions on ArcIMS but did have a few migration to ArcGIS server topics. On the current ESRI support site for ArcIMS life cycle, they do NOT mention a 9.4 release (current is 9.3.1) although they do for ArcGIS Desktop and ArcGIS Server. The ArcIMS Data Delivery Extension is not being sold any more. ArcIMS could do basic clip-n-ship using the Extract Server but that is only available using the old AXL image services and NOT the ArcMap services. I've heard trusted rumors (from some ESRI staff at tech shows and conferences) that ArcGIS Server is where ESRI has been putting all their energy for the past few years. ArcGIS Server (AGS) costs quite a bit, up to 4 cores it's about $32K - $40K per server for the advanced, enterprise level. This Advanced version includes the 3D, Spatial, Network and Geostatistical extenions. It does not include the Data Interoperability extension (based on FME Safe and typically used for data ETL tasks) or the Image Server extension (used for real-time display of rasters in various bands and combinations, like NDVI) Extensions are about 4K - 8K each. The Enterprise licenses mean it includes more features plus ArcSDE for major RDBMS like Oracle SQL Server. The Workgroup version includes a limited ArcSDE for Workgroups. Enterprise ArcSDE (and therefore Enterprise ArcGIS Server) is almost *required* for anything data delivery system greater than a few GB and especially if web based. For more pricing, here are a few I found... https://www.gsaadvantage.gov/ (search for arcgis server) http://www.eyaktek.com/public/ESRI%20Catalog%2006-20-08.xls http://www.esri.com/partners/hardware/ibm-advanced-enterprise.pdf For data processing and delivery, like LIDAR processing and anything that would result from a model, is typically done either 1) via Model Builder, python scripts in the ArcMap MXD document (typically unstable), or 2) via ArcObjects coding through the NET or Java APIs (the Interface OO programming is difficult to learn). Recently, quite a lot is done through ArcGIS Desktop (ArcMap.) ArcCatalog is used to fully manage AGS. There is a web application for managing AGS but it can't do everything that ArcCatalog can do, critical things like map caching. (at least that was the case in 9.2.) So, yes, you'll need quite a few ArcGIS Desktops. You'll need ArcEditor (~$5K) versions for writing to ArcSDE. You'll need ArcInfo level (~$14K) for creating the models to be processed in AGS. This does not include desktop extensions which run about $2.5K each. Plus, many advanced feature of AGS (that you see in demos or brochures) are only accessible via thick AGS clients like ArcGIS DEsktop or ArcGIS Explorer. Remember the initial primary purpose for AGS was was a desktop GIS server, like a replacement for the old ArcInfo 7x geoprocessing server. It was to push centralized GIS processing, editing, mobile checkin/checkout, geocoding, etc... Traditional web applications (replacement for ArcIMS) came later. This is a most excellent summary John. Consider adding this to a wiki page that can be regularly updated. - John ** John Callahan Geospatial Application Developer Delaware Geological Survey, University of Delaware 227 Academy St, Newark DE 19716-7501 Tel: (302) 831-3584 Email: john.calla...@udel.edu http://www.dgs.udel.edu ** Bill Thoen wrote: I need to make a case for developing a map and data server using Open Source software such as MapServer, Open Layers, PostgereSQL/PostGIS to counter a proposal to go with ESRI's solutions. The client who this would be directed to manages a lot of land parcels on which some development is planned. As part of the support for this, the object is to build an Internet-accessible server that maintains about 800Gb of spatial and tabular data, that can provide interactive maps of the properties, data downloads of selected areas and layers in shapefile, AutoCAD and other formats. It also needs to generate 3D surfaces from dense LiDAR data that's available. It also needs a database cataloging system that can be searched for data held in the system. Finally, it needs to provide different access privileges to various personnel who will be using restricted data sets. So
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Comparision between MapServer/OpenLayers and ESRI ArcIMS
A few more thoughts after reading your email again... I don't think an ESRI solution can do much of what you mention out of the box aside from creating basic ArcMap MXDs and ArcScene SXDs (used with 3D Analyst) that utilize database connections to ArcSDE. These only work in a LAN with access to a database and not web enabled. Any AGS or modeling application would need to be developed. AGS and desktop development is tough for people to learn unless they are already proficient in NET or Java. MapServer (and other FOSS apps) can utilize languages like PHP, Python, etc.., that are easier to get up to speed with, IMO. I've always pushed the benefits of modular design when looking at solutions against the ESRI suite. Arc* is notorious for incompatibilities among versions; this includes proprietary data formats (GDB), projects files (MXDs) and of course software. Development is only done via ESRI for their own reasons and all packages go together. As we all know, modular allows different components to be developed independently. That means pieces can be enhanced, debugged, patched, and replaced without affecting the whole. As new technologies come out, they can easily be put into the workflow. The architecture can include numerous platforms, languages, and packages, depending on whatever the user/developer experience is. This argument has gone far with a few people I've talked with. I don't know of any database cataloging system for ESRI. ArcSDE can store spatial metadata for each dataset but that's not a catalog. GIS Portal Toolkit is a metadata catalog but it's not automated in any way, and I've never had luck using it. GPT has been based on ArcIMS but now I hear it's moving to AGS. So, that's something to investigate. For open source, I would look into deegree (http://www.deegree.org/) for many of the OGC services, WMS, WFS-T. WCS, etc... It does a great job as a catalog and map/data server. It also shouldn't be too hard to develop a python script using SQL (for database connections) and gdal/ogr (for flat files) to browse through your collections and create entries in deegree. I haven't done it but I recall some past thread on the python scripting part. Training is expensive for any ArcGIS product. ESRI charges about $490 per day for instructor led training. And you would need training on AGS and ArcSDE (intro and advanced for both) and several on ArcGIS Desktop use, depending on user experience. ESRI does have some online training which are good (and cheap) for entry level to GIS. Their development courses are also only for intro to development. Although ESRI does have plenty of training opportunities, even if expensive, at least they exist. AGS, ArcIMS, ArcSDE, use Windows services or *nix deamons. I've always had these systems crash for one reason or another. ArcIMS crashed often when people published incorrect metadata (through ArcCatalog) to it's metadata services. In any event, there always needed to be an ESRI expert around when the system crashed. Even a simple app had too many GIS-related parts. We could not just leave it to the sys admins once the GIS app got going. MapServer has been easier on the sys admins as it's cgi based. And, the map files are simple text files that anyone can read. The only user access system I know if withing ESRI is through ArcSDE. That is just a pass through to the database. All accounts/roles and permissions are setup in the database. The desktop applications do respect user credentials when connecting to ArcSDE, whether it's for desktop viewing or creating a web map service that will be published through AGS. I don't know if AGS has it's own security system other than the admin login for management. Well, I hope some of this helps... - John ** John Callahan Geospatial Application Developer Delaware Geological Survey, University of Delaware 227 Academy St, Newark DE 19716-7501 Tel: (302) 831-3584 Email: john.calla...@udel.edu http://www.dgs.udel.edu ** Bill Thoen wrote: I need to make a case for developing a map and data server using Open Source software such as MapServer, Open Layers, PostgereSQL/PostGIS to counter a proposal to go with ESRI's solutions. The client who this would be directed to manages a lot of land parcels on which some development is planned. As part of the support for this, the object is to build an Internet-accessible server that maintains about 800Gb of spatial and tabular data, that can provide interactive maps of the properties, data downloads of selected areas and layers in shapefile, AutoCAD and other formats. It also needs to generate 3D surfaces from dense LiDAR data that's available. It also needs a database cataloging system that can be searched for data held in the system. Finally, it needs to provide different
