Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Costly FOSS4Gs

[Jachym Cepicky]

Ravi, but people from most of the world can not effort flight  ticket to
say USA and week hostel - deal with it.

I keep always asking, "what can I do for open source 4 geospatial" instead
of "what can foss4g do for me?".

make local foss4g events, make hackathons, try to get founds, so you bring
the "big names" to you - it might be cheaper then trying to bring all your
friends to foss4g-global

it was proved, that the costs are rather constant. for the global event,
the rule is (ir it was) ever 3rd year, osgeo does not expect much of the
revenue, we hope the local people from local countries will come, we try to
bring foss4g to them..

costs in USA and Europe are making revenue - and it is good so, imho

J

so 21. 10. 2017 v 10:59 odesílatel Ravi Kumar 
napsal:

> "the fees are certainly not for normal people from most of the world"..
> This is balm to all those who consider themselves sidelined.
> Much of the world needs Open Source and Open and Free GIS for Transparent
> administration among a multitude of reasons. May be it is time for a course
> correction.
> Ravi
>
> On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 1:06 PM, Jachym Cepicky 
> wrote:
>
>> Guys,
>>
>> the fees are certainly not for normal people from most of the world. Not
>> talking about travel costs.
>>
>> But, as active member of the community, you can get considerable discount
>> (giving workshops, volunteer at sessions, ...).
>>
>> With FOSS4G-Europe, we aim to bring "little FOSS4G" to more people. And
>> it seems to be working.
>>
>> Just 0.02
>>
>> J
>>
>> čt 19. 10. 2017 v 8:44 odesílatel Till Adams 
>> napsal:
>>
>>> Dear list,
>>>
>>> I can invite everybody, to follow the RfP process for FOSS4G 2019 [1] -
>>> including the questions to the teams. This will show, that we as CC have
>>> the cost factor always in mind. When discussing about prices, please take
>>> into account, that conference fee normally is 1/3 - 1/5 of the total costs
>>> you have when visiting a FOSS4G.
>>>
>>> Also I'd like to invite everybody to make even small donations to the
>>> travel grant programme. We will announce, when the TGP for 2018 is setup.
>>>
>>> Cheers, Till
>>>
>>> [1] https://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/FOSS4G_2019_Bid_Process
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Am 18.10.2017 um 09:30 schrieb Andrea Aime:
>>>
>>> On Wed, Oct 18, 2017 at 8:39 AM, Bruce Bannerman <
>>> bruce.bannerman.os...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
 When you look at the costs associated with a person attending a typical
 international FOSS4G event, the actual conference fees a small amount of
 the actual cost.

 Consider airfares, transportation, accomodation, meals, lost wages etc.
 There is nothing that an LOC can do about these individual costs.

>>>
>>> Ah hem, nothing that the LOC can do once the conference site is chosen,
>>> but something that OSGeo can do when assigning the location and timing.
>>> And I believe that is happening, if I'm not wrong for the first time the
>>> LOC needs to provide expected cost of airfare and accommodation as part
>>> of their proposal, which will make people consider carefully that aspect
>>> too.
>>>
>>> Another aspect that was not cited but that I heard in conversations and
>>> believe is important, it's that it is really hard to compress
>>> the cost of a large conference: the LOC needs a place that can host 1000
>>> people, and that can give internet to this many people,
>>> that places forces the catering package on you (I've been told by
>>> several conference chairs there no way to dodge that) and the
>>> two together make up for a large amount of the cost.
>>>
>>> So, besides some exceptions (think FOSDEM) it seems the only way to
>>> setup a cheaper conference is to make a smaller
>>> one that can be hosted at a university or in a smaller conference
>>> center. Hence the focus on the local conferences.
>>> I believe the threshold is at around 500 people, larger than that one is
>>> hung on the costly options.
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>> Andrea
>>> ==
>>>
>>> GeoServer Professional Services from the experts! Visit
>>> http://goo.gl/it488V for more information. == Ing. Andrea Aime @geowolf 
>>> Technical
>>> Lead GeoSolutions S.A.S. Via di Montramito 3/A 55054  Massarosa (LU) phone:
>>> +39 0584 962313 <+39%200584%20962313> fax: +39 0584 1660272
>>> <+39%200584%20166%200272> mob: +39  339 8844549 <+39%20339%20884%204549>
>>> http://www.geo-solutions.it http://twitter.com/geosolutions_it
>>>
>>> AVVERTENZE AI SENSI DEL D.Lgs. 196/2003
>>>
>>> Le informazioni contenute in questo messaggio di posta elettronica e/o
>>> nel/i file/s allegato/i sono da considerarsi strettamente riservate. Il
>>> loro utilizzo è consentito esclusivamente al destinatario del messaggio,
>>> per le finalità indicate nel messaggio stesso. Qualora riceviate questo
>>> messaggio senza esserne il destinatario, Vi preghiamo cortesemente di
>>> darcene notizia via e-mail e di procedere alla distruzione del messaggio

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Costly FOSS4Gs

[Steven Feldman]

Well said Marc 

This has become a fruitless conversation that can have no satisfactory 
resolution. I don’t hear many voices supporting the view that we need a "course 
correction"

Wealth is unevenly distributed. Life is unfair. Open source software can help 
to rectify that unfairness. 

Attending FOSS4Gs helps to build community but does not need to be restricted 
to the global event. Ravi, if you believe that FOSS4G needs to be more 
affordable ($200, $100, $50, free?) then I encourage you to step up and run a 
local or regional event for 3-500 people at those rates.

BTW I think I am “normal”
__
Steven


> On 21 Oct 2017, at 10:54, Marc Vloemans  wrote:
> 
> Dear Ravi,
> 
> If you feel sidelined, I am very sorry to hear/read this.
> Various commentators in this thread have tried in very rational ways to 
> explain how international, regional and local events have different 
> requirements, constraints and even audiences. Obviously, to no avail.
> 
> I would suggest that “the prove (or price) of the pudding is in the eating”. 
> If anyone feels sidelined...well, OSGeo is a do-ocracyso, in stead of 
> continuing this thread-with-no-end-or-single-silver-bulletI invite you to 
> try your hand at organising a 1000-plus event and see what it takes. 
> 
> From present experience as chair of FOSS4G NA 2018 I can relate to all chairs 
> of similar previous events; our growth means success and success (of eg 
> events) comes at a price.
> 
> ‘Correction of course’ would ultimately entail downsizing international 
> events, the only time there is this size of gathering our tribes, and even 
> the community at large, which defeats all purposes.
> 
> About the latter, we do a good job of that.
> For those who have missed it: Paul Ramsey tweeted he left this list. I 
> have no means to check this, but even the signal itself should tell us all 
> something.
> 
> Kind regards,
> Marc Vloemans
> 
> 
> Op 21 okt. 2017 om 10:58 heeft Ravi Kumar  > het volgende geschreven:
> 
>> "the fees are certainly not for normal people from most of the world".. This 
>> is balm to all those who consider themselves sidelined.
>> Much of the world needs Open Source and Open and Free GIS for Transparent 
>> administration among a multitude of reasons. May be it is time for a course 
>> correction.
>> Ravi
>> 
>> On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 1:06 PM, Jachym Cepicky > > wrote:
>> Guys,
>> 
>> the fees are certainly not for normal people from most of the world. Not 
>> talking about travel costs.
>> 
>> But, as active member of the community, you can get considerable discount 
>> (giving workshops, volunteer at sessions, ...).
>> 
>> With FOSS4G-Europe, we aim to bring "little FOSS4G" to more people. And it 
>> seems to be working.
>> 
>> Just 0.02
>> 
>> J
>> 
>> čt 19. 10. 2017 v 8:44 odesílatel Till Adams > > napsal:
>> Dear list,
>> 
>> I can invite everybody, to follow the RfP process for FOSS4G 2019 [1] - 
>> including the questions to the teams. This will show, that we as CC have the 
>> cost factor always in mind. When discussing about prices, please take into 
>> account, that conference fee normally is 1/3 - 1/5 of the total costs you 
>> have when visiting a FOSS4G.
>> 
>> Also I'd like to invite everybody to make even small donations to the travel 
>> grant programme. We will announce, when the TGP for 2018 is setup.
>> 
>> Cheers, Till
>> 
>> [1] https://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/FOSS4G_2019_Bid_Process 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Am 18.10.2017 um 09:30 schrieb Andrea Aime:
>>> On Wed, Oct 18, 2017 at 8:39 AM, Bruce Bannerman 
>>> > 
>>> wrote:
>>> When you look at the costs associated with a person attending a typical 
>>> international FOSS4G event, the actual conference fees a small amount of 
>>> the actual cost.
>>> 
>>> Consider airfares, transportation, accomodation, meals, lost wages etc. 
>>> There is nothing that an LOC can do about these individual costs.
>>> 
>>> Ah hem, nothing that the LOC can do once the conference site is chosen, but 
>>> something that OSGeo can do when assigning the location and timing.
>>> And I believe that is happening, if I'm not wrong for the first time the 
>>> LOC needs to provide expected cost of airfare and accommodation as part
>>> of their proposal, which will make people consider carefully that aspect 
>>> too. 
>>> 
>>> Another aspect that was not cited but that I heard in conversations and 
>>> believe is important, it's that it is really hard to compress
>>> the cost of a large conference: the LOC needs a place that can host 1000 
>>> people, and that can give internet to this many people,
>>> that places forces the catering package on you 

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Costly FOSS4Gs

[Andy Anderson]

Maybe this was mentioned before, but videos are available for many 
presentations at FOSS4G 2017:

http://2017.foss4g.org/post_conference/

I believe that more are coming.

By the way, producing these videos costs a lot of money, too. They are 
beneficial to everyone, but they are paid for by attendee registrations.

— Andy

On Oct 21, 2017, at 3:35 AM, Till Adams 
<till.ad...@fossgis.de<mailto:till.ad...@fossgis.de>> wrote:


In 2016 we also streamed the whole conference - for free.

Till

Am 18.10.2017 um 20:06 schrieb Nonie Castro:
Just a thought – this year NACIS livestreamed their entire 
conference<http://nacis.org/annual-meeting/current-meeting/> to their members.

Maybe charging a fee to receive streams of the FOSS4G sessions would allow some 
people to attend that couldn’t otherwise afford to.
I count myself in that number.

Thank you,
Nonie




Nonie Castro
Senior GIS Specialist

nonie_cas...@valpak.com<mailto:nonie_cas...@valpak.com>
valpak.com<http://www.valpak.com/>



From: Discuss [mailto:discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org] On Behalf Of Andrea Aime
Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2017 3:30 AM
To: Bruce Bannerman
Cc: discuss
Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Costly FOSS4Gs

On Wed, Oct 18, 2017 at 8:39 AM, Bruce Bannerman 
<bruce.bannerman.os...@gmail.com<mailto:bruce.bannerman.os...@gmail.com>> wrote:
When you look at the costs associated with a person attending a typical 
international FOSS4G event, the actual conference fees a small amount of the 
actual cost.

Consider airfares, transportation, accomodation, meals, lost wages etc. There 
is nothing that an LOC can do about these individual costs.

Ah hem, nothing that the LOC can do once the conference site is chosen, but 
something that OSGeo can do when assigning the location and timing.
And I believe that is happening, if I'm not wrong for the first time the LOC 
needs to provide expected cost of airfare and accommodation as part
of their proposal, which will make people consider carefully that aspect too.

Another aspect that was not cited but that I heard in conversations and believe 
is important, it's that it is really hard to compress
the cost of a large conference: the LOC needs a place that can host 1000 
people, and that can give internet to this many people,
that places forces the catering package on you (I've been told by several 
conference chairs there no way to dodge that) and the
two together make up for a large amount of the cost.

So, besides some exceptions (think FOSDEM) it seems the only way to setup a 
cheaper conference is to make a smaller
one that can be hosted at a university or in a smaller conference center. Hence 
the focus on the local conferences.
I believe the threshold is at around 500 people, larger than that one is hung 
on the costly options.

Cheers
Andrea

==

GeoServer Professional Services from the experts! Visit http://goo.gl/it488V 
for more information.
==

Ing. Andrea Aime
@geowolf
Technical Lead

GeoSolutions S.A.S.
Via di Montramito 3/A
55054  Massarosa (LU)
phone: +39 0584 962313
fax: +39 0584 1660272
mob: +39  339 8844549

http://www.geo-solutions.it<http://www.geo-solutions.it/>
http://twitter.com/geosolutions_it

AVVERTENZE AI SENSI DEL D.Lgs. 196/2003
Le informazioni contenute in questo messaggio di posta elettronica e/o nel/i 
file/s allegato/i sono da considerarsi strettamente riservate. Il loro utilizzo 
è consentito esclusivamente al destinatario del messaggio, per le finalità 
indicate nel messaggio stesso. Qualora riceviate questo messaggio senza esserne 
il destinatario, Vi preghiamo cortesemente di darcene notizia via e-mail e di 
procedere alla distruzione del messaggio stesso, cancellandolo dal Vostro 
sistema. Conservare il messaggio stesso, divulgarlo anche in parte, 
distribuirlo ad altri soggetti, copiarlo, od utilizzarlo per finalità diverse, 
costituisce comportamento contrario ai principi dettati dal D.Lgs. 196/2003.
The information in this message and/or attachments, is intended solely for the 
attention and use of the named addressee(s) and may be confidential or 
proprietary in nature or covered by the provisions of privacy act (Legislative 
Decree June, 30 2003, no.196 - Italy's New Data Protection Code).Any use not in 
accord with its purpose, any disclosure, reproduction, copying, distribution, 
or either dissemination, either whole or partial, is strictly forbidden except 
previous formal approval of the named addressee(s). If you are not the intended 
recipient, please contact immediately the sender by telephone, fax or e-mail 
and delete the information in this message that has been received in error. The 
sender does not give any warranty or accept liability as the content, accuracy 
or completeness of sent messages and accepts no responsibility  for changes 
made after they were sent or for other risks which arise as a result of e-mail 
transmission, viruses, etc.

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Costly FOSS4Gs

[Till Adams]

In 2016 we also streamed the whole conference - for free.

Till


Am 18.10.2017 um 20:06 schrieb Nonie Castro:
>
> Just a thought – this year NACIS livestreamed their entire conference
> <http://nacis.org/annual-meeting/current-meeting/> to their members.
>
>  
>
> Maybe charging a fee to receive streams of the FOSS4G sessions would
> allow some people to attend that couldn’t otherwise afford to.
>
> I count myself in that number.
>
>  
>
> Thank you,
>
> Nonie
>
>  
>
>     cid:image007.png@01D0632F.7C5C2250
>
>
> *Nonie Castro
> Senior GIS Specialist*
>
> nonie_cas...@valpak.com <mailto:nonie_cas...@valpak.com>
> valpak.com <http://www.valpak.com/>
>
> _ _
>
>  
>
> *From:*Discuss [mailto:discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org] *On Behalf Of
> *Andrea Aime
> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 18, 2017 3:30 AM
> *To:* Bruce Bannerman
> *Cc:* discuss
> *Subject:* Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Costly FOSS4Gs
>
>  
>
> On Wed, Oct 18, 2017 at 8:39 AM, Bruce Bannerman
> <bruce.bannerman.os...@gmail.com
> <mailto:bruce.bannerman.os...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> When you look at the costs associated with a person attending a
> typical international FOSS4G event, the actual conference fees a small
> amount of the actual cost.
>
> Consider airfares, transportation, accomodation, meals, lost wages
> etc. There is nothing that an LOC can do about these individual costs.
>
>  
>
> Ah hem, nothing that the LOC can do once the conference site is
> chosen, but something that OSGeo can do when assigning the location
> and timing.
>
> And I believe that is happening, if I'm not wrong for the first time
> the LOC needs to provide expected cost of airfare and accommodation as
> part
>
> of their proposal, which will make people consider carefully that
> aspect too. 
>
>  
>
> Another aspect that was not cited but that I heard in conversations
> and believe is important, it's that it is really hard to compress
>
> the cost of a large conference: the LOC needs a place that can host
> 1000 people, and that can give internet to this many people,
>
> that places forces the catering package on you (I've been told by
> several conference chairs there no way to dodge that) and the 
>
> two together make up for a large amount of the cost.
>
>  
>
> So, besides some exceptions (think FOSDEM) it seems the only way to
> setup a cheaper conference is to make a smaller
>
> one that can be hosted at a university or in a smaller conference
> center. Hence the focus on the local conferences.
>
> I believe the threshold is at around 500 people, larger than that one
> is hung on the costly options.
>
>  
>
> Cheers
>
> Andrea
>
>  
>
> ==
>
> GeoServer Professional Services from the experts! Visit
> http://goo.gl/it488V for more information.
> ==
>
> Ing. Andrea Aime
> @geowolf
> Technical Lead
>
> GeoSolutions S.A.S.
> Via di Montramito 3/A
> 55054  Massarosa (LU)
> phone: +39 0584 962313
> fax: +39 0584 1660272
> mob: +39  339 8844549
>
> http://www.geo-solutions.it
> http://twitter.com/geosolutions_it
>
> AVVERTENZE AI SENSI DEL D.Lgs. 196/2003
>
> Le informazioni contenute in questo messaggio di posta elettronica e/o
> nel/i file/s allegato/i sono da considerarsi strettamente riservate.
> Il loro utilizzo è consentito esclusivamente al destinatario del
> messaggio, per le finalità indicate nel messaggio stesso. Qualora
> riceviate questo messaggio senza esserne il destinatario, Vi preghiamo
> cortesemente di darcene notizia via e-mail e di procedere alla
> distruzione del messaggio stesso, cancellandolo dal Vostro sistema.
> Conservare il messaggio stesso, divulgarlo anche in parte,
> distribuirlo ad altri soggetti, copiarlo, od utilizzarlo per finalità
> diverse, costituisce comportamento contrario ai principi dettati dal
> D.Lgs. 196/2003.
>
> The information in this message and/or attachments, is intended solely
> for the attention and use of the named addressee(s) and may be
> confidential or proprietary in nature or covered by the provisions of
> privacy act (Legislative Decree June, 30 2003, no.196 - Italy's New
> Data Protection Code).Any use not in accord with its purpose, any
> disclosure, reproduction, copying, distribution, or either
> dissemination, either whole or partial, is strictly forbidden except
> previous formal approval of the named addressee(s). If you are not the
> intended recipient, please contact immediately the sender by
> telephone, fax or e-mail and delete the information in this message
> that has been received in error. The sender does not give any warranty
> or accept liab

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Costly FOSS4Gs

[Jachym Cepicky]

Guys,

the fees are certainly not for normal people from most of the world. Not
talking about travel costs.

But, as active member of the community, you can get considerable discount
(giving workshops, volunteer at sessions, ...).

With FOSS4G-Europe, we aim to bring "little FOSS4G" to more people. And it
seems to be working.

Just 0.02

J

čt 19. 10. 2017 v 8:44 odesílatel Till Adams  napsal:

> Dear list,
>
> I can invite everybody, to follow the RfP process for FOSS4G 2019 [1] -
> including the questions to the teams. This will show, that we as CC have
> the cost factor always in mind. When discussing about prices, please take
> into account, that conference fee normally is 1/3 - 1/5 of the total costs
> you have when visiting a FOSS4G.
>
> Also I'd like to invite everybody to make even small donations to the
> travel grant programme. We will announce, when the TGP for 2018 is setup.
>
> Cheers, Till
>
> [1] https://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/FOSS4G_2019_Bid_Process
>
>
>
> Am 18.10.2017 um 09:30 schrieb Andrea Aime:
>
> On Wed, Oct 18, 2017 at 8:39 AM, Bruce Bannerman <
> bruce.bannerman.os...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> When you look at the costs associated with a person attending a typical
>> international FOSS4G event, the actual conference fees a small amount of
>> the actual cost.
>>
>> Consider airfares, transportation, accomodation, meals, lost wages etc.
>> There is nothing that an LOC can do about these individual costs.
>>
>
> Ah hem, nothing that the LOC can do once the conference site is chosen,
> but something that OSGeo can do when assigning the location and timing.
> And I believe that is happening, if I'm not wrong for the first time the
> LOC needs to provide expected cost of airfare and accommodation as part
> of their proposal, which will make people consider carefully that aspect
> too.
>
> Another aspect that was not cited but that I heard in conversations and
> believe is important, it's that it is really hard to compress
> the cost of a large conference: the LOC needs a place that can host 1000
> people, and that can give internet to this many people,
> that places forces the catering package on you (I've been told by several
> conference chairs there no way to dodge that) and the
> two together make up for a large amount of the cost.
>
> So, besides some exceptions (think FOSDEM) it seems the only way to setup
> a cheaper conference is to make a smaller
> one that can be hosted at a university or in a smaller conference center.
> Hence the focus on the local conferences.
> I believe the threshold is at around 500 people, larger than that one is
> hung on the costly options.
>
> Cheers
> Andrea
> ==
>
> GeoServer Professional Services from the experts! Visit
> http://goo.gl/it488V for more information. == Ing. Andrea Aime @geowolf 
> Technical
> Lead GeoSolutions S.A.S. Via di Montramito 3/A 55054  Massarosa (LU) phone:
> +39 0584 962313 <+39%200584%20962313> fax: +39 0584 1660272
> <+39%200584%20166%200272> mob: +39  339 8844549 <+39%20339%20884%204549>
> http://www.geo-solutions.it http://twitter.com/geosolutions_it
>
> AVVERTENZE AI SENSI DEL D.Lgs. 196/2003
>
> Le informazioni contenute in questo messaggio di posta elettronica e/o
> nel/i file/s allegato/i sono da considerarsi strettamente riservate. Il
> loro utilizzo è consentito esclusivamente al destinatario del messaggio,
> per le finalità indicate nel messaggio stesso. Qualora riceviate questo
> messaggio senza esserne il destinatario, Vi preghiamo cortesemente di
> darcene notizia via e-mail e di procedere alla distruzione del messaggio
> stesso, cancellandolo dal Vostro sistema. Conservare il messaggio stesso,
> divulgarlo anche in parte, distribuirlo ad altri soggetti, copiarlo, od
> utilizzarlo per finalità diverse, costituisce comportamento contrario ai
> principi dettati dal D.Lgs. 196/2003.
>
> The information in this message and/or attachments, is intended solely for
> the attention and use of the named addressee(s) and may be confidential or
> proprietary in nature or covered by the provisions of privacy act
> (Legislative Decree June, 30 2003, no.196 - Italy's New Data Protection
> Code).Any use not in accord with its purpose, any disclosure, reproduction,
> copying, distribution, or either dissemination, either whole or partial, is
> strictly forbidden except previous formal approval of the named
> addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please contact
> immediately the sender by telephone, fax or e-mail and delete the
> information in this message that has been received in error. The sender
> does not give any warranty or accept liability as the content, accuracy or
> completeness of sent messages and accepts no responsibility  for changes
> made after they were sent or for other risks which arise as a result of
> e-mail transmission, viruses, etc.
>
>
> ___
> Discuss mailing 
> 

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Costly FOSS4Gs

[Till Adams]

Dear list,

I can invite everybody, to follow the RfP process for FOSS4G 2019 [1] -
including the questions to the teams. This will show, that we as CC have
the cost factor always in mind. When discussing about prices, please
take into account, that conference fee normally is 1/3 - 1/5 of the
total costs you have when visiting a FOSS4G.

Also I'd like to invite everybody to make even small donations to the
travel grant programme. We will announce, when the TGP for 2018 is setup.

Cheers, Till


[1] https://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/FOSS4G_2019_Bid_Process


Am 18.10.2017 um 09:30 schrieb Andrea Aime:
> On Wed, Oct 18, 2017 at 8:39 AM, Bruce Bannerman
>  > wrote:
>
> When you look at the costs associated with a person attending a
> typical international FOSS4G event, the actual conference fees a
> small amount of the actual cost.
>
> Consider airfares, transportation, accomodation, meals, lost wages
> etc. There is nothing that an LOC can do about these individual costs.
>
>
> Ah hem, nothing that the LOC can do once the conference site is
> chosen, but something that OSGeo can do when assigning the location
> and timing.
> And I believe that is happening, if I'm not wrong for the first time
> the LOC needs to provide expected cost of airfare and accommodation as
> part
> of their proposal, which will make people consider carefully that
> aspect too. 
>
> Another aspect that was not cited but that I heard in conversations
> and believe is important, it's that it is really hard to compress
> the cost of a large conference: the LOC needs a place that can host
> 1000 people, and that can give internet to this many people,
> that places forces the catering package on you (I've been told by
> several conference chairs there no way to dodge that) and the 
> two together make up for a large amount of the cost.
>
> So, besides some exceptions (think FOSDEM) it seems the only way to
> setup a cheaper conference is to make a smaller
> one that can be hosted at a university or in a smaller conference
> center. Hence the focus on the local conferences.
> I believe the threshold is at around 500 people, larger than that one
> is hung on the costly options.
>
> Cheers
> Andrea
> ==
>
> GeoServer Professional Services from the experts! Visit
> http://goo.gl/it488V for more information.==Ing. Andrea Aime
> @geowolfTechnical LeadGeoSolutions S.A.S.Via di Montramito 3/A55054
>  Massarosa (LU)phone: +39 0584 962313fax: +39 0584 1660272mob: +39
>  339 8844549http://www.geo-solutions.ithttp://twitter.com/geosolutions_it
>
> AVVERTENZE AI SENSI DEL D.Lgs. 196/2003
>
> Le informazioni contenute in questo messaggio di posta elettronica e/o
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> Conservare il messaggio stesso, divulgarlo anche in parte,
> distribuirlo ad altri soggetti, copiarlo, od utilizzarlo per finalità
> diverse, costituisce comportamento contrario ai principi dettati dal
> D.Lgs. 196/2003.
>
> The information in this message and/or attachments, is intended solely
> for the attention and use of the named addressee(s) and may be
> confidential or proprietary in nature or covered by the provisions of
> privacy act (Legislative Decree June, 30 2003, no.196 - Italy's New
> Data Protection Code).Any use not in accord with its purpose, any
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Costly FOSS4Gs

[Nonie Castro]

Just a thought – this year NACIS livestreamed their entire 
conference<http://nacis.org/annual-meeting/current-meeting/> to their members.

Maybe charging a fee to receive streams of the FOSS4G sessions would allow some 
people to attend that couldn’t otherwise afford to.
I count myself in that number.

Thank you,
Nonie

[cid:image005.png@01D3481A.5632B670][cid:image007.png@01D0632F.7C5C2250]


Nonie Castro
Senior GIS Specialist

nonie_cas...@valpak.com<mailto:nonie_cas...@valpak.com>
valpak.com<http://www.valpak.com/>



From: Discuss [mailto:discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org] On Behalf Of Andrea Aime
Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2017 3:30 AM
To: Bruce Bannerman
Cc: discuss
Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Costly FOSS4Gs

On Wed, Oct 18, 2017 at 8:39 AM, Bruce Bannerman 
<bruce.bannerman.os...@gmail.com<mailto:bruce.bannerman.os...@gmail.com>> wrote:
When you look at the costs associated with a person attending a typical 
international FOSS4G event, the actual conference fees a small amount of the 
actual cost.

Consider airfares, transportation, accomodation, meals, lost wages etc. There 
is nothing that an LOC can do about these individual costs.

Ah hem, nothing that the LOC can do once the conference site is chosen, but 
something that OSGeo can do when assigning the location and timing.
And I believe that is happening, if I'm not wrong for the first time the LOC 
needs to provide expected cost of airfare and accommodation as part
of their proposal, which will make people consider carefully that aspect too.

Another aspect that was not cited but that I heard in conversations and believe 
is important, it's that it is really hard to compress
the cost of a large conference: the LOC needs a place that can host 1000 
people, and that can give internet to this many people,
that places forces the catering package on you (I've been told by several 
conference chairs there no way to dodge that) and the
two together make up for a large amount of the cost.

So, besides some exceptions (think FOSDEM) it seems the only way to setup a 
cheaper conference is to make a smaller
one that can be hosted at a university or in a smaller conference center. Hence 
the focus on the local conferences.
I believe the threshold is at around 500 people, larger than that one is hung 
on the costly options.

Cheers
Andrea

==

GeoServer Professional Services from the experts! Visit http://goo.gl/it488V 
for more information.
==

Ing. Andrea Aime
@geowolf
Technical Lead

GeoSolutions S.A.S.
Via di Montramito 3/A
55054  Massarosa (LU)
phone: +39 0584 962313
fax: +39 0584 1660272
mob: +39  339 8844549

http://www.geo-solutions.it
http://twitter.com/geosolutions_it

AVVERTENZE AI SENSI DEL D.Lgs. 196/2003

Le informazioni contenute in questo messaggio di posta elettronica e/o nel/i 
file/s allegato/i sono da considerarsi strettamente riservate. Il loro utilizzo 
è consentito esclusivamente al destinatario del messaggio, per le finalità 
indicate nel messaggio stesso. Qualora riceviate questo messaggio senza esserne 
il destinatario, Vi preghiamo cortesemente di darcene notizia via e-mail e di 
procedere alla distruzione del messaggio stesso, cancellandolo dal Vostro 
sistema. Conservare il messaggio stesso, divulgarlo anche in parte, 
distribuirlo ad altri soggetti, copiarlo, od utilizzarlo per finalità diverse, 
costituisce comportamento contrario ai principi dettati dal D.Lgs. 196/2003.

The information in this message and/or attachments, is intended solely for the 
attention and use of the named addressee(s) and may be confidential or 
proprietary in nature or covered by the provisions of privacy act (Legislative 
Decree June, 30 2003, no.196 - Italy's New Data Protection Code).Any use not in 
accord with its purpose, any disclosure, reproduction, copying, distribution, 
or either dissemination, either whole or partial, is strictly forbidden except 
previous formal approval of the named addressee(s). If you are not the intended 
recipient, please contact immediately the sender by telephone, fax or e-mail 
and delete the information in this message that has been received in error. The 
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Costly FOSS4Gs

[Andrea Aime]

On Wed, Oct 18, 2017 at 8:39 AM, Bruce Bannerman <
bruce.bannerman.os...@gmail.com> wrote:

> When you look at the costs associated with a person attending a typical
> international FOSS4G event, the actual conference fees a small amount of
> the actual cost.
>
> Consider airfares, transportation, accomodation, meals, lost wages etc.
> There is nothing that an LOC can do about these individual costs.
>

Ah hem, nothing that the LOC can do once the conference site is chosen, but
something that OSGeo can do when assigning the location and timing.
And I believe that is happening, if I'm not wrong for the first time the
LOC needs to provide expected cost of airfare and accommodation as part
of their proposal, which will make people consider carefully that aspect
too.

Another aspect that was not cited but that I heard in conversations and
believe is important, it's that it is really hard to compress
the cost of a large conference: the LOC needs a place that can host 1000
people, and that can give internet to this many people,
that places forces the catering package on you (I've been told by several
conference chairs there no way to dodge that) and the
two together make up for a large amount of the cost.

So, besides some exceptions (think FOSDEM) it seems the only way to setup a
cheaper conference is to make a smaller
one that can be hosted at a university or in a smaller conference center.
Hence the focus on the local conferences.
I believe the threshold is at around 500 people, larger than that one is
hung on the costly options.

Cheers
Andrea

==

GeoServer Professional Services from the experts! Visit http://goo.gl/it488V
for more information.
==

Ing. Andrea Aime
@geowolf
Technical Lead

GeoSolutions S.A.S.
Via di Montramito 3/A
55054  Massarosa (LU)
phone: +39 0584 962313
fax: +39 0584 1660272
mob: +39  339 8844549

http://www.geo-solutions.it
http://twitter.com/geosolutions_it

AVVERTENZE AI SENSI DEL D.Lgs. 196/2003

Le informazioni contenute in questo messaggio di posta elettronica e/o
nel/i file/s allegato/i sono da considerarsi strettamente riservate. Il
loro utilizzo è consentito esclusivamente al destinatario del messaggio,
per le finalità indicate nel messaggio stesso. Qualora riceviate questo
messaggio senza esserne il destinatario, Vi preghiamo cortesemente di
darcene notizia via e-mail e di procedere alla distruzione del messaggio
stesso, cancellandolo dal Vostro sistema. Conservare il messaggio stesso,
divulgarlo anche in parte, distribuirlo ad altri soggetti, copiarlo, od
utilizzarlo per finalità diverse, costituisce comportamento contrario ai
principi dettati dal D.Lgs. 196/2003.

The information in this message and/or attachments, is intended solely for
the attention and use of the named addressee(s) and may be confidential or
proprietary in nature or covered by the provisions of privacy act
(Legislative Decree June, 30 2003, no.196 - Italy's New Data Protection
Code).Any use not in accord with its purpose, any disclosure, reproduction,
copying, distribution, or either dissemination, either whole or partial, is
strictly forbidden except previous formal approval of the named
addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please contact
immediately the sender by telephone, fax or e-mail and delete the
information in this message that has been received in error. The sender
does not give any warranty or accept liability as the content, accuracy or
completeness of sent messages and accepts no responsibility  for changes
made after they were sent or for other risks which arise as a result of
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Costly FOSS4Gs

[Sanghee Shin]

Hello Ravi, 

Here are my answers to your questions. 

1. To run international FOSS4G we need much money as described by many
2. We have only 2 revenue sources from international FOSS4G to meet the running 
cost, one is from registration, the other is from sponsors. 
3. Now we want to have more affordable registration fee. And then we need to 
increase sponsorships. 
4. Many sponsors are commercial companies, sometimes from government bodies. 
5. To increase sponsorships from companies, I believe we need to make 
international FOSS4G more business friendly to ensure our sponsors that they 
are getting benefits from their sponsoring/investments. 

I can share interesting story here in Korea. Korean R user group will have 
their annual conference( https://onoffmix.com/event/115611 ) 10 days later. 
Actually there was some registration fee for the conference. However it’s now 
free for online pre-registration because of large sponsorship from Microsoft 
Korea. Yes, from MS!

Kind regards, 
신상희
---
Shin, Sanghee
Gaia3D, Inc. - The GeoSpatial Company
www.gaia3d.com 

보낸 사람: Ravi Kumar
보낸 날짜: 2017년 10월 18일 수요일 오후 2:57
받는 사람: discuss
제목: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Costly FOSS4Gs

GFOSS.. Commercial Support.. +1 for this.
But.. now that this has come to a boil..
WHY NOT THE BOARD AND WOULD BE BOARD COME OUT CLEAR ON THIS..
SURE THIS WILL HELP THE CHARTER.. WHOM TO VOTE..
'Free and Open Source'.. has brought to where we are.. This is a community 
effort.
Is there a solution to OSGeo FOSS4G events, that are affordable to 
Users/Developers/Students..
Ravi Kumar



On Tue, Oct 17, 2017 at 3:45 PM, Tom Chadwin <tom.chad...@nnpa.org.uk> wrote:
Hello all

A significant group who have possibly not yet chimed in on this issue are the 
commercial organizations who sell GFOSS support and development. I presume that 
FOSS4G is one of their best opportunities to get new business.

I know there have been recent discussions/disagreements on this list about how 
far OSGeo should promote commercial organizations. However, these companies are 
the crucial element in GFOSS adoption in many larger public- and private-sector 
bodies. Many simply will not entertain GFOSS without commercial support, many 
believe the old myth that open source means no support, and many simply will 
not accept the risk of GFOSS without that support.

My point is that GFOSS would not have anything like the market penetration it 
now does without commercial companies offering open-source support and 
development. As I say, I stand to be corrected, but FOSS4G surely enables them 
to persuade others to migrate to GFOSS, which is to the whole community's 
benefit.

Thanks

Tom

PS  Please forgive enormous corporate sigfile...


Tom Chadwin, ICT Manager
Telephone: 01434 611530 Mob:
Web: 
www.northumberlandnationalpark.org.uk<http://www.northumberlandnationalpark.org.uk/>

IMPORTANT NOTICE - Disclaimer - This communication is from Northumberland 
National Park Authority (NNPA).The Authority’s head office and principal place 
of business is Eastburn, South Park, Hexham, Northumberland, NE46 1BS, United 
Kingdom. If you are not the intended recipient(s) please note that any form of 
disclosure, distribution, copying or use of this communication or the 
information in it or in any attachments is strictly prohibited and may be 
unlawful. If you have received this communication in error, please delete the 
email and destroy any copies of it. Any views or opinions presented are solely 
those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of NNPA.Contractors 
or potential contractors are reminded that a formal Order or Contract is needed 
for NNPA to be bound by any offer or acceptance of terms for the supply of 
goods or services Although this email and any attachments are believed to be 
free of any virus or other defects which might affect any computer or IT system 
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Costly FOSS4Gs

[Bruce Bannerman]

Hello Ravi,

I have not really been following this discussion closely, but I can see from 
this email that you are upset.

I’m not sure what it is that you are upset over based on the few lines in your 
email.

I suspect that the issue may be:

"Is there a solution to OSGeo FOSS4G events, that are affordable to 
Users/Developers/Students..”

If my assumption is not correct, then I apologise for the comments below.
 

From my perspective:

Having been a member of a FOSS4G LOC (2009), I know how much effort is required 
to run a successful conference.

In our planning, we kept as a primary driver that we would need to minimise 
costs, but still deliver a professional conference.

This is not an easy thing to do. On the whole, I think that FOSS4G LOC 
typically strike a good balance.


When you look at the costs associated with a person attending a typical 
international FOSS4G event, the actual conference fees a small amount of the 
actual cost.

Consider airfares, transportation, accomodation, meals, lost wages etc. There 
is nothing that an LOC can do about these individual costs.



Affordability is an subjective term and will be viewed differently for each 
person, depending on their income, funds available and the value that they 
place on the event.

There are many events that I’d love to go to, but cannot afford to attend. This 
includes many FOSS4G events unfortunately.


I have noted a trend over many years to try and make videos of FOSS4G sessions 
available online for community members who were not able to attend an event to 
get an idea of what was presented.

Perhaps this will have to suffice for people who decide that in their 
circumstances, they cannot afford to attend a FOSS4G event?


Kind regards,

Bruce






> On 18 Oct 2017, at 4:57 pm, Ravi Kumar  wrote:
> 
> GFOSS.. Commercial Support.. +1 for this.
> But.. now that this has come to a boil..
> 
> WHY NOT THE BOARD AND WOULD BE BOARD COME OUT CLEAR ON THIS..
> SURE THIS WILL HELP THE CHARTER.. WHOM TO VOTE..
> 'Free and Open Source'.. has brought to where we are.. This is a community 
> effort.
> 
> Is there a solution to OSGeo FOSS4G events, that are affordable to 
> Users/Developers/Students..
> 
> Ravi Kumar
> 
> 
> 
> On Tue, Oct 17, 2017 at 3:45 PM, Tom Chadwin  wrote:
> Hello all
> 
> A significant group who have possibly not yet chimed in on this issue are the 
> commercial organizations who sell GFOSS support and development. I presume 
> that FOSS4G is one of their best opportunities to get new business.
> 
> I know there have been recent discussions/disagreements on this list about 
> how far OSGeo should promote commercial organizations. However, these 
> companies are the crucial element in GFOSS adoption in many larger public- 
> and private-sector bodies. Many simply will not entertain GFOSS without 
> commercial support, many believe the old myth that open source means no 
> support, and many simply will not accept the risk of GFOSS without that 
> support.
> 
> My point is that GFOSS would not have anything like the market penetration it 
> now does without commercial companies offering open-source support and 
> development. As I say, I stand to be corrected, but FOSS4G surely enables 
> them to persuade others to migrate to GFOSS, which is to the whole 
> community's benefit.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Tom
> 
> PS  Please forgive enormous corporate sigfile...
> 
> 
> Tom Chadwin, ICT Manager
> Telephone: 01434 611530 Mob:
> Web: 
> www.northumberlandnationalpark.org.uk
> 
> IMPORTANT NOTICE - Disclaimer - This communication is from Northumberland 
> National Park Authority (NNPA).The Authority’s head office and principal 
> place of business is Eastburn, South Park, Hexham, Northumberland, NE46 1BS, 
> United Kingdom. If you are not the intended recipient(s) please note that any 
> form of disclosure, distribution, copying or use of this communication or the 
> information in it or in any attachments is strictly prohibited and may be 
> unlawful. If you have received this communication in error, please delete the 
> email and destroy any copies of it. Any views or opinions presented are 
> solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of 
> NNPA.Contractors or potential contractors are reminded that a formal Order or 
> Contract is needed for NNPA to be bound by any offer or acceptance of terms 
> for the supply of goods or services Although this email and any attachments 
> are believed to be free of any virus or other defects which might affect any 
> computer or IT system into which they are received, no responsibility is 
> accepted by the NNPA for any loss or damage arising in any way from the 
> receipt or use thereof. Computer systems of this Authority may be monitored 
> and communications carried out on them recorded, to secure the effective 
> operation of the system and for other lawful purpose.

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Costly FOSS4Gs

[María Arias de Reyna]

On Wed, Oct 18, 2017 at 7:57 AM, Ravi Kumar 
wrote:
> GFOSS.. Commercial Support.. +1 for this.
> But.. now that this has come to a boil..
>
> WHY NOT THE BOARD AND WOULD BE BOARD COME OUT CLEAR ON THIS..
> SURE THIS WILL HELP THE CHARTER.. WHOM TO VOTE..
> 'Free and Open Source'.. has brought to where we are.. This is a community
> effort.
>
> Is there a solution to OSGeo FOSS4G events, that are affordable to
> Users/Developers/Students..
>
> Ravi Kumar
>

Hi Ravi,

I think we have mentioned several ideas to fix this.* The Travel Grant *program
may not be very big right now, but it is growing year by year. Also, yes,
we are workinig on making the cost lower for attendants, have you checked
the current call for venues[1]? Have you checked the current *early bird
prices* for next FOSS4G[2]? Remember that some of them have a room already
included!

Maybe the problem is that you think this event should be free for
attendants? What is the price you would think it is reasonable for
attending FOSS4G? (This is a tricky question: whatever the price you say,
there will be people who will claim it is too high... unless it is free.
And then they will say travel costs are too high... you will never make
everyone happy unless it is a free event on their doorstep.).

And also remember what many of us had said: there are very good local and
regional events who have no reason to envy FOSS4G. As they are smaller, it
is easier to keep them cheaper.

There is another issue: we can lower insanely the price of the FOSS4G
ticket, but travel costs are still there. If you cannot afford to travel,
maybe you should look into your closest FOSS4G local event. Is there none?
Then look for your fellow osgeo members living near you and start one! How
do you think all this events started? A small group of people who wanted to
meet without having to travel much or wanting to talk about regional
specifics. That's it, there's no other secret.

[1] https://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/FOSS4G_2019_Bid_Process
[2] https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/foss4g-2018-dar-es-salaam-tic
kets-36995828519#results
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Costly FOSS4Gs

[Ravi Kumar]

GFOSS.. Commercial Support.. +1 for this.
But.. now that this has come to a boil..

WHY NOT THE BOARD AND WOULD BE BOARD COME OUT CLEAR ON THIS..
SURE THIS WILL HELP THE CHARTER.. WHOM TO VOTE..
'Free and Open Source'.. has brought to where we are.. This is a community
effort.

Is there a solution to OSGeo FOSS4G events, that are affordable to
Users/Developers/Students..

Ravi Kumar



On Tue, Oct 17, 2017 at 3:45 PM, Tom Chadwin 
wrote:

> Hello all
>
> A significant group who have possibly not yet chimed in on this issue are
> the commercial organizations who sell GFOSS support and development. I
> presume that FOSS4G is one of their best opportunities to get new business.
>
> I know there have been recent discussions/disagreements on this list about
> how far OSGeo should promote commercial organizations. However, these
> companies are the crucial element in GFOSS adoption in many larger public-
> and private-sector bodies. Many simply will not entertain GFOSS without
> commercial support, many believe the old myth that open source means no
> support, and many simply will not accept the risk of GFOSS without that
> support.
>
> My point is that GFOSS would not have anything like the market penetration
> it now does without commercial companies offering open-source support and
> development. As I say, I stand to be corrected, but FOSS4G surely enables
> them to persuade others to migrate to GFOSS, which is to the whole
> community's benefit.
>
> Thanks
>
> Tom
>
> PS  Please forgive enormous corporate sigfile...
>
>
> Tom Chadwin, ICT Manager
> Telephone: 01434 611530 Mob:
> Web: www.northumberlandnationalpark.org.uk northumberlandnationalpark.org.uk/>
>
> IMPORTANT NOTICE - Disclaimer - This communication is from Northumberland
> National Park Authority (NNPA).The Authority’s head office and principal
> place of business is Eastburn, South Park, Hexham, Northumberland, NE46
> 1BS, United Kingdom. If you are not the intended recipient(s) please note
> that any form of disclosure, distribution, copying or use of this
> communication or the information in it or in any attachments is strictly
> prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in
> error, please delete the email and destroy any copies of it. Any views or
> opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily
> represent those of NNPA.Contractors or potential contractors are reminded
> that a formal Order or Contract is needed for NNPA to be bound by any offer
> or acceptance of terms for the supply of goods or services Although this
> email and any attachments are believed to be free of any virus or other
> defects which might affect any computer or IT system into which they are
> received, no responsibility is accepted by the NNPA for any loss or damage
> arising in any way from the receipt or use thereof. Computer systems of
> this Authority may be monitored and communications carried out on them
> recorded, to secure the effective operation of the system and for other
> lawful purpose.
> ___
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> Discuss@lists.osgeo.org
> https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Costly FOSS4Gs

[Dirk Frigne]

Hans,

I fully agree,

A great asset for a board member (but this is true for every OSGeo
member) is the ability to think from the perspective of 'the other'. If
you are a public servant, think as a small business owner or a
scientific researcher. If you are employed by a university, think as if
you have to make your living out of open source software. If you are a
business owner, think how you can collaborate with others and return
value and results back to the community.

We should work on this so we, as a community adopt this respectfully way
of thinking.

If we start to understand the dynamics of what an open source community
is all about, we should be able to experiment with next steps, and I
think these next steps are necessary.
The goal should be to keep the software stacks that we have today
healthy and create a dynamic interaction to work on the future needs for
supporting the Geo industry. We will need all the current members and
adopters for that, and we should continue to be successfull in outreach
activities.
On a FOSS4G conference, we should not only give talks and workshops
about the projects from our communities, we should also explain what
OSGeo is all about, embrace new visitors (first time foss4g ...) and
organise topic talks that are cross project initiatives where the
members can learn to help each other and form the vision of OSGeo.

A lot has to be done if we want to bring our OSGeo community to the next
level.

my2c
Dirk


On 17-10-17 09:56, Hans Gregers Hedegaard Petersen wrote:
> Dear Arnulf, all,
> 
>> if we want to compete then we have to play the game. Party is great but the 
>> money is not in the party and fun part. The money sits in large corps and 
>> governments. Folks coming from there are not expected to party or hang out 
>> and have fun. They are expected to see the bleeding edge technology first 
>> hand, learn about the reliability of Open Source and Free Software licensing 
>> and learn about the leading businesses in that domain. Companies who choose 
>> to support FOSS4G with their sponsorship and come to the global big business 
>> FOSS4G industry event. Honor them. Honor those who organize those events. 
>> Consider paying them professional rates instead of burning them out and then 
>> complain that they have left.
> 
> As a consultant that has had big entities (companies/governments) use
> FOSS in their platforms - and sponsor consulting and development from
> core developers - I agree at least to some of the above (I would guess
> it is indended as a caricature anyways). It is often important for at
> least my clients, that they can meet and greet the people and
> companies behind the work (it is important, as it is often the result
> of the very[!] long journey of getting to understand, that there is no
> "MapServer-company", no 300 page EULA, after legal has commented on
> the use of weird licenses etc). They want to see were the money goes.
> 
> In my experience they do not expect a grand show with sponsored lions,
> elephants, and champagne - what they do expect is a "professional"
> conference. The professional conference has a certain shine and style
> that they can relate to from their visits to other conferences (with
> way larger budgets). The global FOSS4Gs *are* those conferences.
> 
> The global FOSS4gs are big enough to get lost in - remember as a
> newcomer who is aware that you are certainly not like 'the group,' a
> small and cozy pizza party can provoke anxiety - we have all been
> there as children, and can get there as adults too. When the
> conference is big enough, it is OK for us to do our little small talk
> maneuvers, it is OK for us to not fit in.
> 
> The global FOSS4Gs has a number and mix of talks, workshops, and
> "conference stuff" that shines a light on the size and professionalism
> of the community behind the software - we all need to believe that we
> are being taken care of, or said in another way that we are making the
> right choices (or else we fall back to our known ways - 'nobody ever
> got fired for hiring IBM').
> 
> 
>> The good thing is, we do not have to stop anything. We can and we already 
>> are doing both. We have great local events and code sprints and fun and 
>> party and all. Plus we have a one time per year event that is expensive and 
>> attracts the money. Where is the problem? Don't like it? Then don't go. 
>> Cannot afford it? Then promote it so that those who can afford it go (and 
>> indirectly pay your pizza during the fun events). How cool is that?
>>
>> Honestly, FOSS4G "global" should stay (or become even more of) an industry 
>> event. What do you think where the (admittedly tiny) OSGeo budget comes 
>> from? It is the surplus generated by well organized, efficient and shiny 
>> (plus fun) FOSS4Gs. This money is used to support the pizza and coffee for 
>> local code sprints. Why on earth would anybody in his or her right mind 
>> jeopardize or even criticize an event that helps fund everything 

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Costly FOSS4Gs

[María Arias de Reyna]

On Tue, Oct 17, 2017 at 12:15 PM, Tom Chadwin  wrote:
> Hello all
>
> A significant group who have possibly not yet chimed in on this issue are the 
> commercial organizations who sell GFOSS support and development. I presume 
> that FOSS4G is one of their best opportunities to get new business.

One of my targets when trying to make FOSS4G more affordable is
companies who may not be the big companies, but still can offer good
GFOSS services and contribute to it. In fact, I see much more benefit
in having a lot of small companies contributing than just one single
large company. I would be happier with a lot of small sponsors, each
of them contributing and believing on freedom.

I see FOSS4G as a place where everyone meet: developers, users,
companies. And each one can interact with the ones they are most
interested in. Should we focus only on having a shiny-suit conference
to attract investors? I doubt it, part of the strength of FLOSS is
precisely not being so "shiny-suited" but being a big community where
everyone can contribute and receive more than what they contributed.
We should never lose track of that, the community and the freedom to
reuse is our best attribute. Should we make sure we look serious and
trustables? Yes, definitely. But that's not incompatible.

Should we improve the B2B? Also yes. Making sure money flows is what
will make FOSS4G and OSGeo survive. Without money, many of the things
we do would be impossible. So, we have to balance the "attract
investors" with the "don't lose our identity", which is not simple and
believe me, not cheap :)

Anyway, ideas are always welcome. Even if you are not involved in
FOSS4G organization directly, I'm sure helping hands making everything
better are always welcome.
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Costly FOSS4Gs

[Dirk Frigne]

Hi Ravi,

To use a popular Nobel prise winning word "nudging":

I think that the main task of the board (aside to take as a team the
legal responsability for the OSGeo foundation) is to *listen* to the
(NNN) members and 'nudge' them carefully so they will the best of
themselves for the community.
A good functioning board should 'feel' what the community wants, and
only interfere when self organising is not resulting in improving the
organisation as a whole.

my2c
Dirk.

On 17-10-17 06:20, Ravi Kumar wrote:
> Hi Jody,
> 
> "While I like the idea of greater charter member involvement, I like the
> idea of member involvement even more."
> 
> How do you wish to realize this.
> Do you think that 'Charter member' vs 'Ordinary Lister/User/Member'..
> the later merits more..
> THEN
> Why bother and have a special classification as 'Charter Member'...
> 
> Cheers
> Ravi Kumar
> 
> On Tue, Oct 17, 2017 at 8:21 AM, Jody Garnett  > wrote:
> 
> I am uncomfortable with the five star presentation you outline.
> FOSS4G is a open source tech conference that mixes things up in a
> great creative melting pot, just like our community. Limiting foss4g
> to just an industry or academic event would sell it short.
> 
> While I recognize Arnulf’s words, I wish we could find another
> source of funds taking pressure off the conference committee and
> freeing the organization to use the event more effectively for
> advocacy.
> — -
> Ravi I am going to take your second question as wondering what
> greater role our charter members can play?
> 
> In this case I am not sure, and need to listen to others - what
> would you like to see charter members do?
> 
> Right now we have an inclusive setup where anyone can join or
> organization, take part in a local chapter or a committee. By
> stepping up as a member, our organization is open to anyone willing
> to take on responsibility with passion and enthusiasm ... with no
> requirement to be a charter member.
> 
> While I like the idea of greater charter member involvement, I like
> the idea of member involvement even more.
> 
> On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 7:16 PM Ravi Kumar
>  > wrote:
> 
> Hi Vicky and all my OSGeo listers and particularly those who are
> following this thread,
> +1 .. OSGeo has blossomed since that meeting in Chicago (2006)
> attended by some, and Markus Netteler.
> You have FOSS4G Choises now.. Pick, that suites your budget, and
> philosophy (If you prefer not to see FOSS4G as 5*)..
> 
> We depend on the collective wisdom of the board.. We the charter
> should never tire in Nudging the board with our views.
> 
> Another question to Contenders to the Board:
> Wish a day will come when the Charter can play a more important
> role than breaking it's sleep walk, to vote now and then.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Ravi Kumar
> 
>  
> 
> On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 8:38 PM, Vicky Vergara
> > wrote:
> 
> Hello Ravi:
> 
> I had the opportunity to attend and to make a presentation
> on FOSS4G Korea, afterwards, I also made a protestation on
> FOSS4G Tokyo. That was on 2015, and was the same year I was
> also elected to be a charter member on OSGeo. This trip was
> very educational for me, as I got to know more about OSGeo,
> with the international event and with the local event.
> 
> Next year, 2016, even that it would have been great to go to
> FOSS4G Bonn, given budgets constraints, I opted to go to
> FOSS4G Asia instead. Lots of students from Asia had
> participated on OSGeo-GSoC program, and I wanted a close
> contact with them. The contact was so close that, Rohith
> Reddy, student from IIIT in Hyderabad and ex-OSGeo-GSoC
> student, this year acted as mentor and went to the GSoC
> mentor summit representing OSGeo.
> 
> This year for FOSS4G Boston, OSGeo, had a travel grant to
> which I did not apply, I preferred to go to FOSS4G Argentina
> (Starts next week), but I did registered and attended the
> code-sprint (using IRC and jitsi for video).
> About why Argentina, I saw it as an opportunity to
> communicate the spirit of OSGeo on my mother tongue, further
> more, I arranged my trip tohave a 22hr stay in Perú, where
> they are starting to create a local chapter, and I hope to
> meet some OSGeo member(s).
> 
> I also consider FOSS4G as an outreach event, and call it:
> subconsciously, by accident, by 

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Costly FOSS4Gs

[Tom Chadwin]

Hello all

A significant group who have possibly not yet chimed in on this issue are the 
commercial organizations who sell GFOSS support and development. I presume that 
FOSS4G is one of their best opportunities to get new business.

I know there have been recent discussions/disagreements on this list about how 
far OSGeo should promote commercial organizations. However, these companies are 
the crucial element in GFOSS adoption in many larger public- and private-sector 
bodies. Many simply will not entertain GFOSS without commercial support, many 
believe the old myth that open source means no support, and many simply will 
not accept the risk of GFOSS without that support.

My point is that GFOSS would not have anything like the market penetration it 
now does without commercial companies offering open-source support and 
development. As I say, I stand to be corrected, but FOSS4G surely enables them 
to persuade others to migrate to GFOSS, which is to the whole community's 
benefit.

Thanks

Tom

PS  Please forgive enormous corporate sigfile...


Tom Chadwin, ICT Manager
Telephone: 01434 611530 Mob:
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www.northumberlandnationalpark.org.uk

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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Costly FOSS4Gs

[Hans Gregers Hedegaard Petersen]

Dear Arnulf, all,

> if we want to compete then we have to play the game. Party is great but the 
> money is not in the party and fun part. The money sits in large corps and 
> governments. Folks coming from there are not expected to party or hang out 
> and have fun. They are expected to see the bleeding edge technology first 
> hand, learn about the reliability of Open Source and Free Software licensing 
> and learn about the leading businesses in that domain. Companies who choose 
> to support FOSS4G with their sponsorship and come to the global big business 
> FOSS4G industry event. Honor them. Honor those who organize those events. 
> Consider paying them professional rates instead of burning them out and then 
> complain that they have left.

As a consultant that has had big entities (companies/governments) use
FOSS in their platforms - and sponsor consulting and development from
core developers - I agree at least to some of the above (I would guess
it is indended as a caricature anyways). It is often important for at
least my clients, that they can meet and greet the people and
companies behind the work (it is important, as it is often the result
of the very[!] long journey of getting to understand, that there is no
"MapServer-company", no 300 page EULA, after legal has commented on
the use of weird licenses etc). They want to see were the money goes.

In my experience they do not expect a grand show with sponsored lions,
elephants, and champagne - what they do expect is a "professional"
conference. The professional conference has a certain shine and style
that they can relate to from their visits to other conferences (with
way larger budgets). The global FOSS4Gs *are* those conferences.

The global FOSS4gs are big enough to get lost in - remember as a
newcomer who is aware that you are certainly not like 'the group,' a
small and cozy pizza party can provoke anxiety - we have all been
there as children, and can get there as adults too. When the
conference is big enough, it is OK for us to do our little small talk
maneuvers, it is OK for us to not fit in.

The global FOSS4Gs has a number and mix of talks, workshops, and
"conference stuff" that shines a light on the size and professionalism
of the community behind the software - we all need to believe that we
are being taken care of, or said in another way that we are making the
right choices (or else we fall back to our known ways - 'nobody ever
got fired for hiring IBM').


> The good thing is, we do not have to stop anything. We can and we already are 
> doing both. We have great local events and code sprints and fun and party and 
> all. Plus we have a one time per year event that is expensive and attracts 
> the money. Where is the problem? Don't like it? Then don't go. Cannot afford 
> it? Then promote it so that those who can afford it go (and indirectly pay 
> your pizza during the fun events). How cool is that?
>
> Honestly, FOSS4G "global" should stay (or become even more of) an industry 
> event. What do you think where the (admittedly tiny) OSGeo budget comes from? 
> It is the surplus generated by well organized, efficient and shiny (plus fun) 
> FOSS4Gs. This money is used to support the pizza and coffee for local code 
> sprints. Why on earth would anybody in his or her right mind jeopardize or 
> even criticize an event that helps fund everything else we do?

I would agree here. Personally I usually get something else from
visiting local events (for me it is FOSS4G-EU) than from the global
events. I even brought my (now) wife to Como to meet the "geo-family".


TL;DR
I can see several drawbacks of making the global FOSS4G less "business like".


Best regards,

Greg
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Costly FOSS4Gs

[Ravi Kumar]

"I would like to see charter member renamed to "voting member" (since
charter member means those who signed the original charter forming our
organization)"

That way things become Clear.. But I doubt if any charter member is not
aware of it, that their responsibility is (simply) to Vote. And that all
the peer reviewed Charter members, and their views at the moment are like a
storm in the tea-cup.. the Discuss-List.



On Tue, Oct 17, 2017 at 12:47 PM, Jody Garnett 
wrote:

> Good question, I think we already realize empowering members by not
> reserving activities or responsibilities in our organization. From a
> pragmatic standpoint there are more members and with to be inclusive and
> grow our organization. Having a low barrier to taking part is a good thing.
>
> Aside:I would like to see charter member renamed to "voting member" (since
> charter member means those who signed the original charter forming our
> organization).
>
>
> *So why bother?*
> It is impressive that voting members have been recognized by their peers
> as being of good character, and have been asked to take on an
> responsibility, and importantly have accepted a responsibility. That is a
> pretty powerful statement, and show of commitment to our organization.
>
> I would like to respect the commitment, and the voting members
> accordingly. One way to do so is to recognize that they have only accepted
> responsibility for one activity (which has a fixed time commitment each
> year). If we ask any more of these individuals we should not do so casually
> - recognize any ideas are over and above what they agreed to when accepting
> a nomination.
>
> So while I have some ideas, I would be very hesitant to restrict them to
> voting members (and even more hesitant to require voting members to
> participate.)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Jody Garnett
>
> On 16 October 2017 at 21:20, Ravi Kumar 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Jody,
>>
>> "While I like the idea of greater charter member involvement, I like the
>> idea of member involvement even more."
>>
>> How do you wish to realize this.
>> Do you think that 'Charter member' vs 'Ordinary Lister/User/Member'.. the
>> later merits more..
>> THEN
>> Why bother and have a special classification as 'Charter Member'...
>>
>> Cheers
>> Ravi Kumar
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 17, 2017 at 8:21 AM, Jody Garnett 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I am uncomfortable with the five star presentation you outline. FOSS4G
>>> is a open source tech conference that mixes things up in a great creative
>>> melting pot, just like our community. Limiting foss4g to just an industry
>>> or academic event would sell it short.
>>>
>>> While I recognize Arnulf’s words, I wish we could find another source of
>>> funds taking pressure off the conference committee and freeing the
>>> organization to use the event more effectively for advocacy.
>>> — -
>>> Ravi I am going to take your second question as wondering what greater
>>> role our charter members can play?
>>>
>>> In this case I am not sure, and need to listen to others - what would
>>> you like to see charter members do?
>>>
>>> Right now we have an inclusive setup where anyone can join or
>>> organization, take part in a local chapter or a committee. By stepping up
>>> as a member, our organization is open to anyone willing to take on
>>> responsibility with passion and enthusiasm ... with no requirement to be a
>>> charter member.
>>>
>>> While I like the idea of greater charter member involvement, I like the
>>> idea of member involvement even more.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 7:16 PM Ravi Kumar <
>>> manarajahmundry2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
 Hi Vicky and all my OSGeo listers and particularly those who are
 following this thread,
 +1 .. OSGeo has blossomed since that meeting in Chicago (2006) attended
 by some, and Markus Netteler.
 You have FOSS4G Choises now.. Pick, that suites your budget, and
 philosophy (If you prefer not to see FOSS4G as 5*)..

 We depend on the collective wisdom of the board.. We the charter should
 never tire in Nudging the board with our views.

 Another question to Contenders to the Board:
 Wish a day will come when the Charter can play a more important role
 than breaking it's sleep walk, to vote now and then.

 Cheers

 Ravi Kumar



 On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 8:38 PM, Vicky Vergara 
 wrote:

> Hello Ravi:
>
> I had the opportunity to attend and to make a presentation on FOSS4G
> Korea, afterwards, I also made a protestation on FOSS4G Tokyo. That was on
> 2015, and was the same year I was also elected to be a charter member on
> OSGeo. This trip was very educational for me, as I got to know more about
> OSGeo, with the international event and with the local event.
>
> Next year, 2016, even that it would have been great to go to FOSS4G
> Bonn, 

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Costly FOSS4Gs

[Jody Garnett]

Good question, I think we already realize empowering members by not
reserving activities or responsibilities in our organization. From a
pragmatic standpoint there are more members and with to be inclusive and
grow our organization. Having a low barrier to taking part is a good thing.

Aside:I would like to see charter member renamed to "voting member" (since
charter member means those who signed the original charter forming our
organization).


*So why bother?*
It is impressive that voting members have been recognized by their peers as
being of good character, and have been asked to take on an responsibility,
and importantly have accepted a responsibility. That is a pretty powerful
statement, and show of commitment to our organization.

I would like to respect the commitment, and the voting members accordingly.
One way to do so is to recognize that they have only accepted
responsibility for one activity (which has a fixed time commitment each
year). If we ask any more of these individuals we should not do so casually
- recognize any ideas are over and above what they agreed to when accepting
a nomination.

So while I have some ideas, I would be very hesitant to restrict them to
voting members (and even more hesitant to require voting members to
participate.)








--
Jody Garnett

On 16 October 2017 at 21:20, Ravi Kumar 
wrote:

> Hi Jody,
>
> "While I like the idea of greater charter member involvement, I like the
> idea of member involvement even more."
>
> How do you wish to realize this.
> Do you think that 'Charter member' vs 'Ordinary Lister/User/Member'.. the
> later merits more..
> THEN
> Why bother and have a special classification as 'Charter Member'...
>
> Cheers
> Ravi Kumar
>
> On Tue, Oct 17, 2017 at 8:21 AM, Jody Garnett 
> wrote:
>
>> I am uncomfortable with the five star presentation you outline. FOSS4G is
>> a open source tech conference that mixes things up in a great creative
>> melting pot, just like our community. Limiting foss4g to just an industry
>> or academic event would sell it short.
>>
>> While I recognize Arnulf’s words, I wish we could find another source of
>> funds taking pressure off the conference committee and freeing the
>> organization to use the event more effectively for advocacy.
>> — -
>> Ravi I am going to take your second question as wondering what greater
>> role our charter members can play?
>>
>> In this case I am not sure, and need to listen to others - what would you
>> like to see charter members do?
>>
>> Right now we have an inclusive setup where anyone can join or
>> organization, take part in a local chapter or a committee. By stepping up
>> as a member, our organization is open to anyone willing to take on
>> responsibility with passion and enthusiasm ... with no requirement to be a
>> charter member.
>>
>> While I like the idea of greater charter member involvement, I like the
>> idea of member involvement even more.
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 7:16 PM Ravi Kumar 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Vicky and all my OSGeo listers and particularly those who are
>>> following this thread,
>>> +1 .. OSGeo has blossomed since that meeting in Chicago (2006) attended
>>> by some, and Markus Netteler.
>>> You have FOSS4G Choises now.. Pick, that suites your budget, and
>>> philosophy (If you prefer not to see FOSS4G as 5*)..
>>>
>>> We depend on the collective wisdom of the board.. We the charter should
>>> never tire in Nudging the board with our views.
>>>
>>> Another question to Contenders to the Board:
>>> Wish a day will come when the Charter can play a more important role
>>> than breaking it's sleep walk, to vote now and then.
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>>
>>> Ravi Kumar
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 8:38 PM, Vicky Vergara 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Hello Ravi:

 I had the opportunity to attend and to make a presentation on FOSS4G
 Korea, afterwards, I also made a protestation on FOSS4G Tokyo. That was on
 2015, and was the same year I was also elected to be a charter member on
 OSGeo. This trip was very educational for me, as I got to know more about
 OSGeo, with the international event and with the local event.

 Next year, 2016, even that it would have been great to go to FOSS4G
 Bonn, given budgets constraints, I opted to go to FOSS4G Asia instead. Lots
 of students from Asia had participated on OSGeo-GSoC program, and I wanted
 a close contact with them. The contact was so close that, Rohith Reddy,
 student from IIIT in Hyderabad and ex-OSGeo-GSoC student, this year acted
 as mentor and went to the GSoC mentor summit representing OSGeo.

 This year for FOSS4G Boston, OSGeo, had a travel grant to which I did
 not apply, I preferred to go to FOSS4G Argentina (Starts next week), but I
 did registered and attended the code-sprint (using IRC and jitsi for 
 video).
 About why Argentina, 

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Costly FOSS4Gs

[Ravi Kumar]

Hi Jody,

"While I like the idea of greater charter member involvement, I like the
idea of member involvement even more."

How do you wish to realize this.
Do you think that 'Charter member' vs 'Ordinary Lister/User/Member'.. the
later merits more..
THEN
Why bother and have a special classification as 'Charter Member'...

Cheers
Ravi Kumar

On Tue, Oct 17, 2017 at 8:21 AM, Jody Garnett 
wrote:

> I am uncomfortable with the five star presentation you outline. FOSS4G is
> a open source tech conference that mixes things up in a great creative
> melting pot, just like our community. Limiting foss4g to just an industry
> or academic event would sell it short.
>
> While I recognize Arnulf’s words, I wish we could find another source of
> funds taking pressure off the conference committee and freeing the
> organization to use the event more effectively for advocacy.
> — -
> Ravi I am going to take your second question as wondering what greater
> role our charter members can play?
>
> In this case I am not sure, and need to listen to others - what would you
> like to see charter members do?
>
> Right now we have an inclusive setup where anyone can join or
> organization, take part in a local chapter or a committee. By stepping up
> as a member, our organization is open to anyone willing to take on
> responsibility with passion and enthusiasm ... with no requirement to be a
> charter member.
>
> While I like the idea of greater charter member involvement, I like the
> idea of member involvement even more.
>
> On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 7:16 PM Ravi Kumar 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Vicky and all my OSGeo listers and particularly those who are
>> following this thread,
>> +1 .. OSGeo has blossomed since that meeting in Chicago (2006) attended
>> by some, and Markus Netteler.
>> You have FOSS4G Choises now.. Pick, that suites your budget, and
>> philosophy (If you prefer not to see FOSS4G as 5*)..
>>
>> We depend on the collective wisdom of the board.. We the charter should
>> never tire in Nudging the board with our views.
>>
>> Another question to Contenders to the Board:
>> Wish a day will come when the Charter can play a more important role than
>> breaking it's sleep walk, to vote now and then.
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Ravi Kumar
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 8:38 PM, Vicky Vergara 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hello Ravi:
>>>
>>> I had the opportunity to attend and to make a presentation on FOSS4G
>>> Korea, afterwards, I also made a protestation on FOSS4G Tokyo. That was on
>>> 2015, and was the same year I was also elected to be a charter member on
>>> OSGeo. This trip was very educational for me, as I got to know more about
>>> OSGeo, with the international event and with the local event.
>>>
>>> Next year, 2016, even that it would have been great to go to FOSS4G
>>> Bonn, given budgets constraints, I opted to go to FOSS4G Asia instead. Lots
>>> of students from Asia had participated on OSGeo-GSoC program, and I wanted
>>> a close contact with them. The contact was so close that, Rohith Reddy,
>>> student from IIIT in Hyderabad and ex-OSGeo-GSoC student, this year acted
>>> as mentor and went to the GSoC mentor summit representing OSGeo.
>>>
>>> This year for FOSS4G Boston, OSGeo, had a travel grant to which I did
>>> not apply, I preferred to go to FOSS4G Argentina (Starts next week), but I
>>> did registered and attended the code-sprint (using IRC and jitsi for video).
>>> About why Argentina, I saw it as an opportunity to communicate the
>>> spirit of OSGeo on my mother tongue, further more, I arranged my trip
>>> tohave a 22hr stay in Perú, where they are starting to create a local
>>> chapter, and I hope to meet some OSGeo member(s).
>>>
>>> I also consider FOSS4G as an outreach event, and call it:
>>> subconsciously, by accident, by preference, I've being going to the small
>>> FOSS4G events after the first one where I learned so much. If you think
>>> about it, by not going to the international one, and going to the small
>>> FOSS4G, I have been spreading the word to the people that can not afford
>>> the trip-accommodation-registration costs for the main FOSS4G, and
>>> maybe someone else, will use the travel grant, can go learn more about
>>> OSGeo on the main international event.
>>>
>>>
>>> Vicky
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 9:15 AM, Steven Feldman 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Ravi

 This could be misinterpreted as some criticism of the volunteers who
 have staged outstanding FOSS4G events in the last years or even of the
 attendees who are able to afford to attend. I hope that is not the case?

 I’m not going to comment further on the challenges of hosting a 1000
 person conference and the associated costs, I think Jeff has summed this up
 well. This discussion has gone round the conference, board and discuss
 lists for several years. If we want a large event we will have to 

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Costly FOSS4Gs

[Ravi Kumar]

+1 for.. I like the idea of member involvement even more.
Ravi

On Tue, Oct 17, 2017 at 8:21 AM, Jody Garnett 
wrote:

> I am uncomfortable with the five star presentation you outline. FOSS4G is
> a open source tech conference that mixes things up in a great creative
> melting pot, just like our community. Limiting foss4g to just an industry
> or academic event would sell it short.
>
> While I recognize Arnulf’s words, I wish we could find another source of
> funds taking pressure off the conference committee and freeing the
> organization to use the event more effectively for advocacy.
> — -
> Ravi I am going to take your second question as wondering what greater
> role our charter members can play?
>
> In this case I am not sure, and need to listen to others - what would you
> like to see charter members do?
>
> Right now we have an inclusive setup where anyone can join or
> organization, take part in a local chapter or a committee. By stepping up
> as a member, our organization is open to anyone willing to take on
> responsibility with passion and enthusiasm ... with no requirement to be a
> charter member.
>
> While I like the idea of greater charter member involvement, I like the
> idea of member involvement even more.
>
> On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 7:16 PM Ravi Kumar 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Vicky and all my OSGeo listers and particularly those who are
>> following this thread,
>> +1 .. OSGeo has blossomed since that meeting in Chicago (2006) attended
>> by some, and Markus Netteler.
>> You have FOSS4G Choises now.. Pick, that suites your budget, and
>> philosophy (If you prefer not to see FOSS4G as 5*)..
>>
>> We depend on the collective wisdom of the board.. We the charter should
>> never tire in Nudging the board with our views.
>>
>> Another question to Contenders to the Board:
>> Wish a day will come when the Charter can play a more important role than
>> breaking it's sleep walk, to vote now and then.
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Ravi Kumar
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 8:38 PM, Vicky Vergara 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hello Ravi:
>>>
>>> I had the opportunity to attend and to make a presentation on FOSS4G
>>> Korea, afterwards, I also made a protestation on FOSS4G Tokyo. That was on
>>> 2015, and was the same year I was also elected to be a charter member on
>>> OSGeo. This trip was very educational for me, as I got to know more about
>>> OSGeo, with the international event and with the local event.
>>>
>>> Next year, 2016, even that it would have been great to go to FOSS4G
>>> Bonn, given budgets constraints, I opted to go to FOSS4G Asia instead. Lots
>>> of students from Asia had participated on OSGeo-GSoC program, and I wanted
>>> a close contact with them. The contact was so close that, Rohith Reddy,
>>> student from IIIT in Hyderabad and ex-OSGeo-GSoC student, this year acted
>>> as mentor and went to the GSoC mentor summit representing OSGeo.
>>>
>>> This year for FOSS4G Boston, OSGeo, had a travel grant to which I did
>>> not apply, I preferred to go to FOSS4G Argentina (Starts next week), but I
>>> did registered and attended the code-sprint (using IRC and jitsi for video).
>>> About why Argentina, I saw it as an opportunity to communicate the
>>> spirit of OSGeo on my mother tongue, further more, I arranged my trip
>>> tohave a 22hr stay in Perú, where they are starting to create a local
>>> chapter, and I hope to meet some OSGeo member(s).
>>>
>>> I also consider FOSS4G as an outreach event, and call it:
>>> subconsciously, by accident, by preference, I've being going to the small
>>> FOSS4G events after the first one where I learned so much. If you think
>>> about it, by not going to the international one, and going to the small
>>> FOSS4G, I have been spreading the word to the people that can not afford
>>> the trip-accommodation-registration costs for the main FOSS4G, and
>>> maybe someone else, will use the travel grant, can go learn more about
>>> OSGeo on the main international event.
>>>
>>>
>>> Vicky
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 9:15 AM, Steven Feldman 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Ravi

 This could be misinterpreted as some criticism of the volunteers who
 have staged outstanding FOSS4G events in the last years or even of the
 attendees who are able to afford to attend. I hope that is not the case?

 I’m not going to comment further on the challenges of hosting a 1000
 person conference and the associated costs, I think Jeff has summed this up
 well. This discussion has gone round the conference, board and discuss
 lists for several years. If we want a large event we will have to accept
 the costs, the ticket price is typically a lot less than the travel,
 accommodation and meal costs that “out of country” visitors incur.

 The answer, IMO, is to encourage the growth of regional and national
 FOSS4G to enable lower cost access and to 

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Costly FOSS4Gs

[Jody Garnett]

I am uncomfortable with the five star presentation you outline. FOSS4G is a
open source tech conference that mixes things up in a great creative
melting pot, just like our community. Limiting foss4g to just an industry
or academic event would sell it short.

While I recognize Arnulf’s words, I wish we could find another source of
funds taking pressure off the conference committee and freeing the
organization to use the event more effectively for advocacy.
— -
Ravi I am going to take your second question as wondering what greater role
our charter members can play?

In this case I am not sure, and need to listen to others - what would you
like to see charter members do?

Right now we have an inclusive setup where anyone can join or organization,
take part in a local chapter or a committee. By stepping up as a member,
our organization is open to anyone willing to take on responsibility with
passion and enthusiasm ... with no requirement to be a charter member.

While I like the idea of greater charter member involvement, I like the
idea of member involvement even more.

On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 7:16 PM Ravi Kumar 
wrote:

> Hi Vicky and all my OSGeo listers and particularly those who are following
> this thread,
> +1 .. OSGeo has blossomed since that meeting in Chicago (2006) attended by
> some, and Markus Netteler.
> You have FOSS4G Choises now.. Pick, that suites your budget, and
> philosophy (If you prefer not to see FOSS4G as 5*)..
>
> We depend on the collective wisdom of the board.. We the charter should
> never tire in Nudging the board with our views.
>
> Another question to Contenders to the Board:
> Wish a day will come when the Charter can play a more important role than
> breaking it's sleep walk, to vote now and then.
>
> Cheers
>
> Ravi Kumar
>
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 8:38 PM, Vicky Vergara 
> wrote:
>
>> Hello Ravi:
>>
>> I had the opportunity to attend and to make a presentation on FOSS4G
>> Korea, afterwards, I also made a protestation on FOSS4G Tokyo. That was on
>> 2015, and was the same year I was also elected to be a charter member on
>> OSGeo. This trip was very educational for me, as I got to know more about
>> OSGeo, with the international event and with the local event.
>>
>> Next year, 2016, even that it would have been great to go to FOSS4G Bonn,
>> given budgets constraints, I opted to go to FOSS4G Asia instead. Lots of
>> students from Asia had participated on OSGeo-GSoC program, and I wanted a
>> close contact with them. The contact was so close that, Rohith Reddy,
>> student from IIIT in Hyderabad and ex-OSGeo-GSoC student, this year acted
>> as mentor and went to the GSoC mentor summit representing OSGeo.
>>
>> This year for FOSS4G Boston, OSGeo, had a travel grant to which I did not
>> apply, I preferred to go to FOSS4G Argentina (Starts next week), but I did
>> registered and attended the code-sprint (using IRC and jitsi for video).
>> About why Argentina, I saw it as an opportunity to communicate the spirit
>> of OSGeo on my mother tongue, further more, I arranged my trip tohave a
>> 22hr stay in Perú, where they are starting to create a local chapter, and I
>> hope to meet some OSGeo member(s).
>>
>> I also consider FOSS4G as an outreach event, and call it: subconsciously,
>> by accident, by preference, I've being going to the small FOSS4G events
>> after the first one where I learned so much. If you think about it, by not
>> going to the international one, and going to the small FOSS4G, I have been
>> spreading the word to the people that can not afford the
>> trip-accommodation-registration costs for the main FOSS4G, and maybe
>> someone else, will use the travel grant, can go learn more about OSGeo on
>> the main international event.
>>
>>
>> Vicky
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 9:15 AM, Steven Feldman 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Ravi
>>>
>>> This could be misinterpreted as some criticism of the volunteers who
>>> have staged outstanding FOSS4G events in the last years or even of the
>>> attendees who are able to afford to attend. I hope that is not the case?
>>>
>>> I’m not going to comment further on the challenges of hosting a 1000
>>> person conference and the associated costs, I think Jeff has summed this up
>>> well. This discussion has gone round the conference, board and discuss
>>> lists for several years. If we want a large event we will have to accept
>>> the costs, the ticket price is typically a lot less than the travel,
>>> accommodation and meal costs that “out of country” visitors incur.
>>>
>>> The answer, IMO, is to encourage the growth of regional and national
>>> FOSS4G to enable lower cost access and to extend our outreach. I have seen
>>> little or no evidence presented to support the idea that local and regional
>>> events need funding from the centre but if a case can be made then the
>>> board should give that consideration and/or delegate that responsibility to
>>> the 

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Costly FOSS4Gs

[Ravi Kumar]

Hi Jody and list,

"Ravi can I ask if you would like to have a "hangout" or "party" event?"

I remember vividly.. The Year: 2007. The Event 'OSGeo India Launch'.. The
Venue: Glittering International Convention Centre, Hyderabad(Novotel).
Being a Geologist, more used to the outdoors and field work, hobnobbing in
a 5- star place, made me wear a Facade, 'A Tie, A Coat' (as Arnulf so
anecdotally expressed in this thread). Venka, then, for me a Professor from
Osaka City University, was there without a 'Tie'.. He went one step ahead,
whispering to me.. In minutes I undid my tie.. and breathed easy..

About OSGeo's FOSS4G being a 'Stiff Upper Lip..  a Tie and Coat Event'.. OR
'a Hangout/Party event', where Developers and users in T-Shirts, develop
networks in an atmosphere of bonhomie.. I am sure the list will vote a land
slide victory for the Later than the former.

HOWEVER, I concede.

Like the Elephant (of PostGIS too), a pair of teeth to Show (off)
-- Glittering Events
AND
A pair to actually chew and eat..
--- Bonhomie Events

A Cocktail might do the trick for us.. Let us bet on the Wisdom of the
OSGeo Board with the new incumbents ..

Cheers and thanks to each one Jeff, Arnulf Venka and all for reacting

Ravi Kumar

On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 10:25 PM, Jody Garnett 
wrote:

> I would like a chance to listen to everyone and avoid creating spits in
> our community, some of the most critical feedback received about foss4g
> affordability has been by companies. Our strength in part comes from
> bridging divides, a foss4g for business would not be a foss4g.
>
> Ravi can I ask if you would like to have a "hangout" or "party" event?
>
> I was surprised to encounter the viewpoint that foss4g it is considered an
> OSGeo party. While we have lots to celebrate, I view foss4g as a time when
> we can best meet our outreach goals. I tend to view this as a
> responsibility - the local organizing committee has specific brought us in
> to knock-the-socks off the local geospatial community and show them how
> amazing open source can be!
>
> As a personal goal I am trying to be more relaxed about viewing OSGeo as a
> party, our community members are amazing should be celebrated and
> celebrating. It is one thing I really appreciated about the slower pace of
> this years foss4g-europe event, think it was the first time I got to see
> Andrea Amine slow down enough to talk to.
>
> Thanks again for bringing interesting questions to this years elections.
>
>
>
> --
> Jody Garnett
>
> On 15 October 2017 at 23:59, Ravi Kumar 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi List,
>> happy to note that 'FOSS4G being Costly/Unaffordable', is discussed.
>> To make it fun, spice is added on the TERM HANGOUT..
>>
>> May be the next board will have FOSS4G for Business, where in 5* comforts
>> that might make business easy for OSGeo.
>> Will also have, 'FOSS4G Developers', where in young students/Reserchers
>> can have a great conference.
>>
>>  Some fine tuning may make, Say , 1st 2 days 5 Star.. Next two affordable.
>> But in a world where, 'COST some times means Efficiency', may not, 'play
>> ball', with this Idea.
>>
>> Cheers.. and All the best to the Hopefuls
>>
>> Ravi Kumar
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 11:19 AM, Jody Garnett 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Okay I checked that the report is not published yet (sigh). I really
>>> appreciated Jeff's answer, and agree that regional foss4g events are seeing
>>> great success and are much more affordable.
>>>
>>> To answer your question:
>>>
>>> *'Do you agree that FOSS4G is turning out to be a hangout for those who
>>> can afford it'*..
>>>
>>> I have never agreed that FOSS4G is a hangout - I continue to view it as
>>> our most effective outreach event.
>>>
>>> *costs (of participation) are  so high that many might not afford.. *
>>>
>>> I very much agree with this, indeed I was only able to attend
>>> the Lausanne event by the kindness of people letting me sleep on their
>>> hotel floor. I have tried to return the favour each time the event took
>>> place in my home city.
>>>
>>> *If selected to the board HOW do you wish to correct this...*
>>>
>>> This is a tricky one, in part because I do not have to imagine - here is
>>> my own recommendation from the bo...@osgeo.org email list thread: f2f
>>> meeting follow up
>>> :
>>>
>>> On 21 August 2017 at 11:23, Jody Garnett 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> *I saw this thread get into the details of the RFP - for that we have*
>>> *volunteers on the conference committee. My goal as a board member is to*
>>> *work on strategy, as the conference committee knows best about the RFP*
>>> *wording and process.*
>>>
>>> **Q: *Based on the affordability report, and resulting discussion, did
>>> we as **the board have any direction to ask the conference committee to
>>> steer in?*
>>>
>>> *My own feedback:*
>>>

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Costly FOSS4Gs

[Ravi Kumar]

Hi Vicky and all my OSGeo listers and particularly those who are following
this thread,
+1 .. OSGeo has blossomed since that meeting in Chicago (2006) attended by
some, and Markus Netteler.
You have FOSS4G Choises now.. Pick, that suites your budget, and philosophy
(If you prefer not to see FOSS4G as 5*)..

We depend on the collective wisdom of the board.. We the charter should
never tire in Nudging the board with our views.

Another question to Contenders to the Board:
Wish a day will come when the Charter can play a more important role than
breaking it's sleep walk, to vote now and then.

Cheers

Ravi Kumar



On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 8:38 PM, Vicky Vergara  wrote:

> Hello Ravi:
>
> I had the opportunity to attend and to make a presentation on FOSS4G
> Korea, afterwards, I also made a protestation on FOSS4G Tokyo. That was on
> 2015, and was the same year I was also elected to be a charter member on
> OSGeo. This trip was very educational for me, as I got to know more about
> OSGeo, with the international event and with the local event.
>
> Next year, 2016, even that it would have been great to go to FOSS4G Bonn,
> given budgets constraints, I opted to go to FOSS4G Asia instead. Lots of
> students from Asia had participated on OSGeo-GSoC program, and I wanted a
> close contact with them. The contact was so close that, Rohith Reddy,
> student from IIIT in Hyderabad and ex-OSGeo-GSoC student, this year acted
> as mentor and went to the GSoC mentor summit representing OSGeo.
>
> This year for FOSS4G Boston, OSGeo, had a travel grant to which I did not
> apply, I preferred to go to FOSS4G Argentina (Starts next week), but I did
> registered and attended the code-sprint (using IRC and jitsi for video).
> About why Argentina, I saw it as an opportunity to communicate the spirit
> of OSGeo on my mother tongue, further more, I arranged my trip tohave a
> 22hr stay in Perú, where they are starting to create a local chapter, and I
> hope to meet some OSGeo member(s).
>
> I also consider FOSS4G as an outreach event, and call it: subconsciously,
> by accident, by preference, I've being going to the small FOSS4G events
> after the first one where I learned so much. If you think about it, by not
> going to the international one, and going to the small FOSS4G, I have been
> spreading the word to the people that can not afford the 
> trip-accommodation-registration
> costs for the main FOSS4G, and maybe someone else, will use the travel
> grant, can go learn more about OSGeo on the main international event.
>
>
> Vicky
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 9:15 AM, Steven Feldman 
> wrote:
>
>> Ravi
>>
>> This could be misinterpreted as some criticism of the volunteers who have
>> staged outstanding FOSS4G events in the last years or even of the attendees
>> who are able to afford to attend. I hope that is not the case?
>>
>> I’m not going to comment further on the challenges of hosting a 1000
>> person conference and the associated costs, I think Jeff has summed this up
>> well. This discussion has gone round the conference, board and discuss
>> lists for several years. If we want a large event we will have to accept
>> the costs, the ticket price is typically a lot less than the travel,
>> accommodation and meal costs that “out of country” visitors incur.
>>
>> The answer, IMO, is to encourage the growth of regional and national
>> FOSS4G to enable lower cost access and to extend our outreach. I have seen
>> little or no evidence presented to support the idea that local and regional
>> events need funding from the centre but if a case can be made then the
>> board should give that consideration and/or delegate that responsibility to
>> the conference committee
>>
>> Let’s celebrate the success of our global events and their attendees who
>> do a lot more than “hang out”. These events, through their generous
>> sponsors, provide a lot of the funds for the OSGeo board to use in
>> outreach, code sprints and other activities
>> __
>> Steven
>>
>>
>> On 16 Oct 2017, at 07:59, Ravi Kumar 
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi List,
>> happy to note that 'FOSS4G being Costly/Unaffordable', is discussed.
>> To make it fun, spice is added on the TERM HANGOUT..
>>
>> May be the next board will have FOSS4G for Business, where in 5* comforts
>> that might make business easy for OSGeo.
>> Will also have, 'FOSS4G Developers', where in young students/Reserchers
>> can have a great conference.
>>
>>  Some fine tuning may make, Say , 1st 2 days 5 Star.. Next two affordable.
>> But in a world where, 'COST some times means Efficiency', may not, 'play
>> ball', with this Idea.
>>
>> Cheers.. and All the best to the Hopefuls
>>
>> Ravi Kumar
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 11:19 AM, Jody Garnett 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Okay I checked that the report is not published yet (sigh). I really
>>> appreciated Jeff's answer, and agree that regional foss4g events are 

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Costly FOSS4Gs

[Steven Feldman]

Thanks Arnulf 

So so right

Steven
07958 924 101

> On 16 Oct 2017, at 18:44, Seven (aka Arnulf)  wrote:
> 
> Folks, 
> if we want to compete then we have to play the game. Party is great but the 
> money is not in the party and fun part. The money sits in large corps and 
> governments. Folks coming from there are not expected to party or hang out 
> and have fun. They are expected to see the bleeding edge technology first 
> hand, learn about the reliability of Open Source and Free Software licensing 
> and learn about the leading businesses in that domain. Companies who choose 
> to support FOSS4G with their sponsorship and come to the global big business 
> FOSS4G industry event. Honor them. Honor those who organize those events. 
> Consider paying them professional rates instead of burning them out and then 
> complain that they have left. 
> (Maybe to the disagreement of some) these kind of events function by making 
> things shine and excel. This includes a great venue, great catering, inviting 
> great paid speakers and award great awards at a great gala dinner. Yawn. How 
> I hate those events! Plus they are costly! Plus I have to wear my (cat)suit! 
> Yuck! But this is also why I always have worn a suit when it was required 
> (especially on Star Trek Voyager). No, I do not consider myself a suit. But I 
> wear one when it is required. There are aspects of Free Software and Open 
> Source where a suit is a door opener. Condemn it, door closes. 
> The good thing is, we do not have to stop anything. We can and we already are 
> doing both. We have great local events and code sprints and fun and party and 
> all. Plus we have a one time per year event that is expensive and attracts 
> the money. Where is the problem? Don't like it? Then don't go. Cannot afford 
> it? Then promote it so that those who can afford it go (and indirectly pay 
> your pizza during the fun events). How cool is that? 
> Honestly, FOSS4G "global" should stay (or become even more of) an industry 
> event. What do you think where the (admittedly tiny) OSGeo budget comes from? 
> It is the surplus generated by well organized, efficient and shiny (plus fun) 
> FOSS4Gs. This money is used to support the pizza and coffee for local code 
> sprints. Why on earth would anybody in his or her right mind jeopardize or 
> even criticize an event that helps fund everything else we do? 
> Cheers,
> Seven
> (Founder, Charter Member, ex Director, President Emeritus of OSGeo and grumpy 
> old ex Borg drone) 
> 
> 
>> Am 16.10.2017 um 18:55 schrieb Jody Garnett:
>> I would like a chance to listen to everyone and avoid creating spits in our 
>> community, some of the most critical feedback received about foss4g 
>> affordability has been by companies. Our strength in part comes from 
>> bridging divides, a foss4g for business would not be a foss4g.
>> 
>> Ravi can I ask if you would like to have a "hangout" or "party" event?
>> 
>> I was surprised to encounter the viewpoint that foss4g it is considered an 
>> OSGeo party. While we have lots to celebrate, I view foss4g as a time when 
>> we can best meet our outreach goals. I tend to view this as a responsibility 
>> - the local organizing committee has specific brought us in to 
>> knock-the-socks off the local geospatial community and show them how amazing 
>> open source can be!
>> 
>> As a personal goal I am trying to be more relaxed about viewing OSGeo as a 
>> party, our community members are amazing should be celebrated and 
>> celebrating. It is one thing I really appreciated about the slower pace of 
>> this years foss4g-europe event, think it was the first time I got to see 
>> Andrea Amine slow down enough to talk to.
>> 
>> Thanks again for bringing interesting questions to this years elections.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> Jody Garnett
>> 
>>> On 15 October 2017 at 23:59, Ravi Kumar  
>>> wrote:
>>> Hi List,
>>> happy to note that 'FOSS4G being Costly/Unaffordable', is discussed.
>>> To make it fun, spice is added on the TERM HANGOUT.. 
>>> 
>>> May be the next board will have FOSS4G for Business, where in 5* comforts 
>>> that might make business easy for OSGeo.
>>> Will also have, 'FOSS4G Developers', where in young students/Reserchers can 
>>> have a great conference.
>>> 
>>>  Some fine tuning may make, Say , 1st 2 days 5 Star.. Next two affordable.
>>> But in a world where, 'COST some times means Efficiency', may not, 'play 
>>> ball', with this Idea.
>>> 
>>> Cheers.. and All the best to the Hopefuls
>>> 
>>> Ravi Kumar
>>> 
>>> 
 On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 11:19 AM, Jody Garnett  
 wrote:
 Okay I checked that the report is not published yet (sigh). I really 
 appreciated Jeff's answer, and agree that regional foss4g events are 
 seeing great success and are much more affordable.
 
 To answer your question:
 
 'Do you agree that FOSS4G is turning out to be a hangout for those who 

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Costly FOSS4Gs

[Marc Vloemans]

+1
Without businesses no SLA's etc. for professional enduser organisations, who 
ultimate pay for developers as well as the 'parties'.
(Coming nog from a - black - suit ;-)

Kind regards,
Marc Vloemans


> Op 16 okt. 2017 om 19:44 heeft Seven (aka Arnulf)  het 
> volgende geschreven:
> 
> Folks, 
> if we want to compete then we have to play the game. Party is great but the 
> money is not in the party and fun part. The money sits in large corps and 
> governments. Folks coming from there are not expected to party or hang out 
> and have fun. They are expected to see the bleeding edge technology first 
> hand, learn about the reliability of Open Source and Free Software licensing 
> and learn about the leading businesses in that domain. Companies who choose 
> to support FOSS4G with their sponsorship and come to the global big business 
> FOSS4G industry event. Honor them. Honor those who organize those events. 
> Consider paying them professional rates instead of burning them out and then 
> complain that they have left. 
> (Maybe to the disagreement of some) these kind of events function by making 
> things shine and excel. This includes a great venue, great catering, inviting 
> great paid speakers and award great awards at a great gala dinner. Yawn. How 
> I hate those events! Plus they are costly! Plus I have to wear my (cat)suit! 
> Yuck! But this is also why I always have worn a suit when it was required 
> (especially on Star Trek Voyager). No, I do not consider myself a suit. But I 
> wear one when it is required. There are aspects of Free Software and Open 
> Source where a suit is a door opener. Condemn it, door closes. 
> The good thing is, we do not have to stop anything. We can and we already are 
> doing both. We have great local events and code sprints and fun and party and 
> all. Plus we have a one time per year event that is expensive and attracts 
> the money. Where is the problem? Don't like it? Then don't go. Cannot afford 
> it? Then promote it so that those who can afford it go (and indirectly pay 
> your pizza during the fun events). How cool is that? 
> Honestly, FOSS4G "global" should stay (or become even more of) an industry 
> event. What do you think where the (admittedly tiny) OSGeo budget comes from? 
> It is the surplus generated by well organized, efficient and shiny (plus fun) 
> FOSS4Gs. This money is used to support the pizza and coffee for local code 
> sprints. Why on earth would anybody in his or her right mind jeopardize or 
> even criticize an event that helps fund everything else we do? 
> Cheers,
> Seven
> (Founder, Charter Member, ex Director, President Emeritus of OSGeo and grumpy 
> old ex Borg drone) 
> 
> 
>> Am 16.10.2017 um 18:55 schrieb Jody Garnett:
>> I would like a chance to listen to everyone and avoid creating spits in our 
>> community, some of the most critical feedback received about foss4g 
>> affordability has been by companies. Our strength in part comes from 
>> bridging divides, a foss4g for business would not be a foss4g.
>> 
>> Ravi can I ask if you would like to have a "hangout" or "party" event?
>> 
>> I was surprised to encounter the viewpoint that foss4g it is considered an 
>> OSGeo party. While we have lots to celebrate, I view foss4g as a time when 
>> we can best meet our outreach goals. I tend to view this as a responsibility 
>> - the local organizing committee has specific brought us in to 
>> knock-the-socks off the local geospatial community and show them how amazing 
>> open source can be!
>> 
>> As a personal goal I am trying to be more relaxed about viewing OSGeo as a 
>> party, our community members are amazing should be celebrated and 
>> celebrating. It is one thing I really appreciated about the slower pace of 
>> this years foss4g-europe event, think it was the first time I got to see 
>> Andrea Amine slow down enough to talk to.
>> 
>> Thanks again for bringing interesting questions to this years elections.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> Jody Garnett
>> 
>> On 15 October 2017 at 23:59, Ravi Kumar  
>> wrote:
>>> Hi List,
>>> happy to note that 'FOSS4G being Costly/Unaffordable', is discussed.
>>> To make it fun, spice is added on the TERM HANGOUT.. 
>>> 
>>> May be the next board will have FOSS4G for Business, where in 5* comforts 
>>> that might make business easy for OSGeo.
>>> Will also have, 'FOSS4G Developers', where in young students/Reserchers can 
>>> have a great conference.
>>> 
>>>  Some fine tuning may make, Say , 1st 2 days 5 Star.. Next two affordable.
>>> But in a world where, 'COST some times means Efficiency', may not, 'play 
>>> ball', with this Idea.
>>> 
>>> Cheers.. and All the best to the Hopefuls
>>> 
>>> Ravi Kumar
>>> 
>>> 
 On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 11:19 AM, Jody Garnett  
 wrote:
 Okay I checked that the report is not published yet (sigh). I really 
 appreciated Jeff's answer, and agree that regional foss4g events 

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Costly FOSS4Gs

[Seven (aka Arnulf)]

Folks,

if we want to compete then we have to play the game. Party is great but
the money is not in the party and fun part. The money sits in large
corps and governments. Folks coming from there are not expected to party
or hang out and have fun. They are expected to see the bleeding edge
technology first hand, learn about the reliability of Open Source and
Free Software licensing and learn about the leading businesses in that
domain. Companies who choose to support FOSS4G with their sponsorship
and come to the global big business FOSS4G industry event. Honor them.
Honor those who organize those events. Consider paying them professional
rates instead of burning them out and then complain that they have left.

(Maybe to the disagreement of some) these kind of events function by
making things shine and excel. This includes a great venue, great
catering, inviting great paid speakers and award great awards at a great
gala dinner. Yawn. How I hate those events! Plus they are costly! Plus I
have to wear my (cat)suit! Yuck! But this is also why I always have worn
a suit when it was required (especially on Star Trek Voyager). No, I do
not consider myself a suit. But I wear one when it is required. There
are aspects of Free Software and Open Source where a suit is a door
opener. Condemn it, door closes.

The good thing is, we do not have to stop anything. We can and we
already are doing both. We have great local events and code sprints and
fun and party and all. Plus we have a one time per year event that is
expensive and attracts the money. Where is the problem? Don't like it?
Then don't go. Cannot afford it? Then promote it so that those who can
afford it go (and indirectly pay your pizza during the fun events). How
cool is that?

Honestly, FOSS4G "global" should stay (or become even more of) an
industry event. What do you think where the (admittedly tiny) OSGeo
budget comes from? It is the surplus generated by well organized,
efficient and shiny (plus fun) FOSS4Gs. This money is used to support
the pizza and coffee for local code sprints. Why on earth would anybody
in his or her right mind jeopardize or even criticize an event that
helps fund everything else we do?

Cheers,
Seven

(Founder, Charter Member, ex Director, President Emeritus of OSGeo and
grumpy old ex Borg drone)


Am 16.10.2017 um 18:55 schrieb Jody Garnett:
> I would like a chance to listen to everyone and avoid creating spits
> in our community, some of the most critical feedback received about
> foss4g affordability has been by companies. Our strength in part comes
> from bridging divides, a foss4g for business would not be a foss4g.
>
> Ravi can I ask if you would like to have a "hangout" or "party" event?
>
> I was surprised to encounter the viewpoint that foss4g it is
> considered an OSGeo party. While we have lots to celebrate, I view
> foss4g as a time when we can best meet our outreach goals. I tend to
> view this as a responsibility - the local organizing committee has
> specific brought us in to knock-the-socks off the local geospatial
> community and show them how amazing open source can be!
>
> As a personal goal I am trying to be more relaxed about viewing OSGeo
> as a party, our community members are amazing should be celebrated and
> celebrating. It is one thing I really appreciated about the slower
> pace of this years foss4g-europe event, think it was the first time I
> got to see Andrea Amine slow down enough to talk to.
>
> Thanks again for bringing interesting questions to this years elections.
>
>
>
> --
> Jody Garnett
>
> On 15 October 2017 at 23:59, Ravi Kumar  > wrote:
>
> Hi List,
> happy to note that 'FOSS4G being Costly/Unaffordable', is discussed.
> To make it fun, spice is added on the TERM HANGOUT..
>
> May be the next board will have FOSS4G for Business, where in 5*
> comforts that might make business easy for OSGeo.
> Will also have, 'FOSS4G Developers', where in young
> students/Reserchers can have a great conference.
>
>  Some fine tuning may make, Say , 1st 2 days 5 Star.. Next two
> affordable.
> But in a world where, 'COST some times means Efficiency', may not,
> 'play ball', with this Idea.
>
> Cheers.. and All the best to the Hopefuls
>
> Ravi Kumar
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 11:19 AM, Jody Garnett
> > wrote:
>
> Okay I checked that the report is not published yet (sigh). I
> really appreciated Jeff's answer, and agree that regional
> foss4g events are seeing great success and are much more
> affordable.
>
> To answer your question:
>
> /'Do you agree that FOSS4G is turning out to be a hangout for
> those who can afford it'/.. 
>
> I have never agreed that FOSS4G is a hangout - I continue to
> view it as our most effective outreach event.
>
> 

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Costly FOSS4Gs

[Jody Garnett]

I would like a chance to listen to everyone and avoid creating spits in our
community, some of the most critical feedback received about foss4g
affordability has been by companies. Our strength in part comes from
bridging divides, a foss4g for business would not be a foss4g.

Ravi can I ask if you would like to have a "hangout" or "party" event?

I was surprised to encounter the viewpoint that foss4g it is considered an
OSGeo party. While we have lots to celebrate, I view foss4g as a time when
we can best meet our outreach goals. I tend to view this as a
responsibility - the local organizing committee has specific brought us in
to knock-the-socks off the local geospatial community and show them how
amazing open source can be!

As a personal goal I am trying to be more relaxed about viewing OSGeo as a
party, our community members are amazing should be celebrated and
celebrating. It is one thing I really appreciated about the slower pace of
this years foss4g-europe event, think it was the first time I got to see
Andrea Amine slow down enough to talk to.

Thanks again for bringing interesting questions to this years elections.



--
Jody Garnett

On 15 October 2017 at 23:59, Ravi Kumar 
wrote:

> Hi List,
> happy to note that 'FOSS4G being Costly/Unaffordable', is discussed.
> To make it fun, spice is added on the TERM HANGOUT..
>
> May be the next board will have FOSS4G for Business, where in 5* comforts
> that might make business easy for OSGeo.
> Will also have, 'FOSS4G Developers', where in young students/Reserchers
> can have a great conference.
>
>  Some fine tuning may make, Say , 1st 2 days 5 Star.. Next two affordable.
> But in a world where, 'COST some times means Efficiency', may not, 'play
> ball', with this Idea.
>
> Cheers.. and All the best to the Hopefuls
>
> Ravi Kumar
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 11:19 AM, Jody Garnett 
> wrote:
>
>> Okay I checked that the report is not published yet (sigh). I really
>> appreciated Jeff's answer, and agree that regional foss4g events are seeing
>> great success and are much more affordable.
>>
>> To answer your question:
>>
>> *'Do you agree that FOSS4G is turning out to be a hangout for those who
>> can afford it'*..
>>
>> I have never agreed that FOSS4G is a hangout - I continue to view it as
>> our most effective outreach event.
>>
>> *costs (of participation) are  so high that many might not afford.. *
>>
>> I very much agree with this, indeed I was only able to attend
>> the Lausanne event by the kindness of people letting me sleep on their
>> hotel floor. I have tried to return the favour each time the event took
>> place in my home city.
>>
>> *If selected to the board HOW do you wish to correct this...*
>>
>> This is a tricky one, in part because I do not have to imagine - here is
>> my own recommendation from the bo...@osgeo.org email list thread: f2f
>> meeting follow up
>> :
>>
>> On 21 August 2017 at 11:23, Jody Garnett 
>> wrote:
>>
>> *I saw this thread get into the details of the RFP - for that we have*
>> *volunteers on the conference committee. My goal as a board member is to*
>> *work on strategy, as the conference committee knows best about the RFP*
>> *wording and process.*
>>
>> **Q: *Based on the affordability report, and resulting discussion, did we
>> as **the board have any direction to ask the conference committee to
>> steer in?*
>>
>> *My own feedback:*
>>
>>
>> *1) I was pleasantly surprised that the ticket cost of foss4g has not 
>> **changed
>> significantly over the course of the events (indeed our most **expensive
>> event was Sydney and our cheapest Korea).*
>>
>> *I do not see any guidance to provide here (this was surprising to me).*
>>
>> *2) Attendance continues to increase limiting appropriate venues*
>>
>> *I do not see any guidence to provide here, our community and event is 
>> **growing.
>> I think once we get around 3000 people we may be forced to settle **down
>> to consider a fixed location, but at 1000-2000 we can still move it *
>> *around.*
>>
>> *3) regional events are killing it*
>>
>> *I do not see any guidence to provide here, our community and events is *
>> *growing. **The hope is this takes some of the strain from the global
>> event, allowing **it to focus on outreach and advocacy more.*
>>
>> *4) hard for students to attend (also journal, etc...)*
>>
>> *There was a strong hope that travel grant program could help out a lot 
>> **here,
>> that would make me sad as this was intended to work towards **diversity.*
>>
>> *While there may be guidance here I am not close enough to the academic 
>> **world
>> to provide useful direction.*
>>
>> *5) diversity*
>>
>> *The original intention of the travel grant was to bring diversity
>> awareness **to our osgeo events (to apply regional events are asked to
>> set a diversity **target which travel grant can help towards). During
>> foss4g I 

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Costly FOSS4Gs

[Vicky Vergara]

Hello Ravi:

I had the opportunity to attend and to make a presentation on FOSS4G Korea,
afterwards, I also made a protestation on FOSS4G Tokyo. That was on 2015,
and was the same year I was also elected to be a charter member on OSGeo.
This trip was very educational for me, as I got to know more about OSGeo,
with the international event and with the local event.

Next year, 2016, even that it would have been great to go to FOSS4G Bonn,
given budgets constraints, I opted to go to FOSS4G Asia instead. Lots of
students from Asia had participated on OSGeo-GSoC program, and I wanted a
close contact with them. The contact was so close that, Rohith Reddy,
student from IIIT in Hyderabad and ex-OSGeo-GSoC student, this year acted
as mentor and went to the GSoC mentor summit representing OSGeo.

This year for FOSS4G Boston, OSGeo, had a travel grant to which I did not
apply, I preferred to go to FOSS4G Argentina (Starts next week), but I did
registered and attended the code-sprint (using IRC and jitsi for video).
About why Argentina, I saw it as an opportunity to communicate the spirit
of OSGeo on my mother tongue, further more, I arranged my trip tohave a
22hr stay in Perú, where they are starting to create a local chapter, and I
hope to meet some OSGeo member(s).

I also consider FOSS4G as an outreach event, and call it: subconsciously,
by accident, by preference, I've being going to the small FOSS4G events
after the first one where I learned so much. If you think about it, by not
going to the international one, and going to the small FOSS4G, I have been
spreading the word to the people that can not afford the
trip-accommodation-registration costs for the main FOSS4G, and maybe
someone else, will use the travel grant, can go learn more about OSGeo on
the main international event.


Vicky




On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 9:15 AM, Steven Feldman  wrote:

> Ravi
>
> This could be misinterpreted as some criticism of the volunteers who have
> staged outstanding FOSS4G events in the last years or even of the attendees
> who are able to afford to attend. I hope that is not the case?
>
> I’m not going to comment further on the challenges of hosting a 1000
> person conference and the associated costs, I think Jeff has summed this up
> well. This discussion has gone round the conference, board and discuss
> lists for several years. If we want a large event we will have to accept
> the costs, the ticket price is typically a lot less than the travel,
> accommodation and meal costs that “out of country” visitors incur.
>
> The answer, IMO, is to encourage the growth of regional and national
> FOSS4G to enable lower cost access and to extend our outreach. I have seen
> little or no evidence presented to support the idea that local and regional
> events need funding from the centre but if a case can be made then the
> board should give that consideration and/or delegate that responsibility to
> the conference committee
>
> Let’s celebrate the success of our global events and their attendees who
> do a lot more than “hang out”. These events, through their generous
> sponsors, provide a lot of the funds for the OSGeo board to use in
> outreach, code sprints and other activities
> __
> Steven
>
>
> On 16 Oct 2017, at 07:59, Ravi Kumar 
> wrote:
>
> Hi List,
> happy to note that 'FOSS4G being Costly/Unaffordable', is discussed.
> To make it fun, spice is added on the TERM HANGOUT..
>
> May be the next board will have FOSS4G for Business, where in 5* comforts
> that might make business easy for OSGeo.
> Will also have, 'FOSS4G Developers', where in young students/Reserchers
> can have a great conference.
>
>  Some fine tuning may make, Say , 1st 2 days 5 Star.. Next two affordable.
> But in a world where, 'COST some times means Efficiency', may not, 'play
> ball', with this Idea.
>
> Cheers.. and All the best to the Hopefuls
>
> Ravi Kumar
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 11:19 AM, Jody Garnett 
> wrote:
>
>> Okay I checked that the report is not published yet (sigh). I really
>> appreciated Jeff's answer, and agree that regional foss4g events are seeing
>> great success and are much more affordable.
>>
>> To answer your question:
>>
>> *'Do you agree that FOSS4G is turning out to be a hangout for those who
>> can afford it'*..
>>
>> I have never agreed that FOSS4G is a hangout - I continue to view it as
>> our most effective outreach event.
>>
>> *costs (of participation) are  so high that many might not afford.. *
>>
>> I very much agree with this, indeed I was only able to attend
>> the Lausanne event by the kindness of people letting me sleep on their
>> hotel floor. I have tried to return the favour each time the event took
>> place in my home city.
>>
>> *If selected to the board HOW do you wish to correct this...*
>>
>> This is a tricky one, in part because I do not have to imagine - here is
>> my own recommendation from the bo...@osgeo.org email list 

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Costly FOSS4Gs

[Jody Garnett]

On 16 October 2017 at 07:15, Steven Feldman  wrote:

> The answer, IMO, is to encourage the growth of regional and national
> FOSS4G to enable lower cost access and to extend our outreach. I have seen
> little or no evidence presented to support the idea that local and regional
> events need funding from the centre but if a case can be made then the
> board should give that consideration and/or delegate that responsibility to
> the conference committee
>

My was understanding is the conference committee is available for "annual
foss4g conference*s*" - including regional foss4g events. Checking the wiki
page the majority of the goals are indeed centred around the annual event,
but the mandate to support regional events is there if the conference
committee would like to meet it.

Ravi the conference committee has recently taken on responsibility for a
global travel grant program
 to a support
regional events, code sprints and the like. While this does not address
affordability it does show a willingness (and ability) to help support
regional events and is a good example of dividing up the work between local
organizers and our global volunteers.

In a similar fashion the board has a procedure to support code sprints
 with initial funding
(often used to secure a venue). OSGeo also offers to "backstop" an event so
if it loses money the foundation (rather than the volunteers organizing) is
in position to pay. These kind of gestures help take a lot of the pressure
off local organizers and are a good example of how local events can be
supported.

> __
> Steven
>
>
> On 16 Oct 2017, at 07:59, Ravi Kumar 
> wrote:
>
> Hi List,
> happy to note that 'FOSS4G being Costly/Unaffordable', is discussed.
> To make it fun, spice is added on the TERM HANGOUT..
>
> May be the next board will have FOSS4G for Business, where in 5* comforts
> that might make business easy for OSGeo.
> Will also have, 'FOSS4G Developers', where in young students/Reserchers
> can have a great conference.
>
>  Some fine tuning may make, Say , 1st 2 days 5 Star.. Next two affordable.
> But in a world where, 'COST some times means Efficiency', may not, 'play
> ball', with this Idea.
>
> Cheers.. and All the best to the Hopefuls
>
> Ravi Kumar
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 11:19 AM, Jody Garnett 
> wrote:
>
>> Okay I checked that the report is not published yet (sigh). I really
>> appreciated Jeff's answer, and agree that regional foss4g events are seeing
>> great success and are much more affordable.
>>
>> To answer your question:
>>
>> *'Do you agree that FOSS4G is turning out to be a hangout for those who
>> can afford it'*..
>>
>> I have never agreed that FOSS4G is a hangout - I continue to view it as
>> our most effective outreach event.
>>
>> *costs (of participation) are  so high that many might not afford.. *
>>
>> I very much agree with this, indeed I was only able to attend
>> the Lausanne event by the kindness of people letting me sleep on their
>> hotel floor. I have tried to return the favour each time the event took
>> place in my home city.
>>
>> *If selected to the board HOW do you wish to correct this...*
>>
>> This is a tricky one, in part because I do not have to imagine - here is
>> my own recommendation from the bo...@osgeo.org email list thread: f2f
>> meeting follow up
>> :
>>
>> On 21 August 2017 at 11:23, Jody Garnett 
>> wrote:
>>
>> *I saw this thread get into the details of the RFP - for that we have*
>> *volunteers on the conference committee. My goal as a board member is to*
>> *work on strategy, as the conference committee knows best about the RFP*
>> *wording and process.*
>>
>> **Q: *Based on the affordability report, and resulting discussion, did we
>> as **the board have any direction to ask the conference committee to
>> steer in?*
>>
>> *My own feedback:*
>>
>>
>> *1) I was pleasantly surprised that the ticket cost of foss4g has not 
>> **changed
>> significantly over the course of the events (indeed our most **expensive
>> event was Sydney and our cheapest Korea).*
>>
>> *I do not see any guidance to provide here (this was surprising to me).*
>>
>> *2) Attendance continues to increase limiting appropriate venues*
>>
>> *I do not see any guidence to provide here, our community and event is 
>> **growing.
>> I think once we get around 3000 people we may be forced to settle **down
>> to consider a fixed location, but at 1000-2000 we can still move it *
>> *around.*
>>
>> *3) regional events are killing it*
>>
>> *I do not see any guidence to provide here, our community and events is *
>> *growing. **The hope is this takes some of the strain from the global
>> event, allowing **it to focus on outreach and advocacy more.*
>>
>> *4) hard for students to attend (also 

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Costly FOSS4Gs

[Steven Feldman]

Ravi

This could be misinterpreted as some criticism of the volunteers who have 
staged outstanding FOSS4G events in the last years or even of the attendees who 
are able to afford to attend. I hope that is not the case?

I’m not going to comment further on the challenges of hosting a 1000 person 
conference and the associated costs, I think Jeff has summed this up well. This 
discussion has gone round the conference, board and discuss lists for several 
years. If we want a large event we will have to accept the costs, the ticket 
price is typically a lot less than the travel, accommodation and meal costs 
that “out of country” visitors incur. 

The answer, IMO, is to encourage the growth of regional and national FOSS4G to 
enable lower cost access and to extend our outreach. I have seen little or no 
evidence presented to support the idea that local and regional events need 
funding from the centre but if a case can be made then the board should give 
that consideration and/or delegate that responsibility to the conference 
committee

Let’s celebrate the success of our global events and their attendees who do a 
lot more than “hang out”. These events, through their generous sponsors, 
provide a lot of the funds for the OSGeo board to use in outreach, code sprints 
and other activities
__
Steven


> On 16 Oct 2017, at 07:59, Ravi Kumar  wrote:
> 
> Hi List,
> happy to note that 'FOSS4G being Costly/Unaffordable', is discussed.
> To make it fun, spice is added on the TERM HANGOUT.. 
> 
> May be the next board will have FOSS4G for Business, where in 5* comforts 
> that might make business easy for OSGeo.
> Will also have, 'FOSS4G Developers', where in young students/Reserchers can 
> have a great conference.
> 
>  Some fine tuning may make, Say , 1st 2 days 5 Star.. Next two affordable.
> But in a world where, 'COST some times means Efficiency', may not, 'play 
> ball', with this Idea.
> 
> Cheers.. and All the best to the Hopefuls
> 
> Ravi Kumar
> 
> 
> On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 11:19 AM, Jody Garnett  > wrote:
> Okay I checked that the report is not published yet (sigh). I really 
> appreciated Jeff's answer, and agree that regional foss4g events are seeing 
> great success and are much more affordable.
> 
> To answer your question:
> 
> 'Do you agree that FOSS4G is turning out to be a hangout for those who can 
> afford it'.. 
> 
> I have never agreed that FOSS4G is a hangout - I continue to view it as our 
> most effective outreach event.
> 
> costs (of participation) are  so high that many might not afford.. 
> 
> I very much agree with this, indeed I was only able to attend the Lausanne 
> event by the kindness of people letting me sleep on their hotel floor. I have 
> tried to return the favour each time the event took place in my home city.
> 
> If selected to the board HOW do you wish to correct this...
> 
> This is a tricky one, in part because I do not have to imagine - here is my 
> own recommendation from the bo...@osgeo.org  email 
> list thread: f2f meeting follow up 
> :
> 
> On 21 August 2017 at 11:23, Jody Garnett  > wrote:
> 
> I saw this thread get into the details of the RFP - for that we have
> volunteers on the conference committee. My goal as a board member is to
> work on strategy, as the conference committee knows best about the RFP
> wording and process.
> 
> *Q: *Based on the affordability report, and resulting discussion, did we as 
> the board have any direction to ask the conference committee to steer in?
> 
> My own feedback:
> 
> 1) I was pleasantly surprised that the ticket cost of foss4g has not changed 
> significantly over the course of the events (indeed our most expensive event 
> was Sydney and our cheapest Korea).
> 
> I do not see any guidance to provide here (this was surprising to me).
> 
> 2) Attendance continues to increase limiting appropriate venues
> 
> I do not see any guidence to provide here, our community and event is 
> growing. I think once we get around 3000 people we may be forced to settle 
> down to consider a fixed location, but at 1000-2000 we can still move it 
> around.
> 
> 3) regional events are killing it
> 
> I do not see any guidence to provide here, our community and events is 
> growing. The hope is this takes some of the strain from the global event, 
> allowing it to focus on outreach and advocacy more.
> 
> 4) hard for students to attend (also journal, etc...)
> 
> There was a strong hope that travel grant program could help out a lot here, 
> that would make me sad as this was intended to work towards diversity.
> 
> While there may be guidance here I am not close enough to the academic world 
> to provide useful direction.
> 
> 5) diversity
> 
> The original intention of the travel grant was to bring diversity awareness 
> to our osgeo 

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Costly FOSS4Gs

[Cameron Shorter]

Hi Ravi,

I'd suggest change your question from "Board members, how will you make 
FOSS4G cheaper" to "Board members, how can you empower me to help make 
FOSS4G better?". And then follow up and get involved in the conference 
committee.


Cheers, Cameron

On 16/10/17 6:33 pm, Venkatesh Raghavan wrote:

Hi Ravi,

Thanks for the question and your suggestion below;

I have expressed my opinion in the conference and
board mailing list where this matter as been discussed
on several occasion.

I think there is still some scope for considering ways
and means to enhance affordability. Maybe by,

a) Alternating between business focused (big convention
center plus all the frills of a Tech Expo) and an R
focused (low cost venue, no-frills, low-cost-carrier model)

b) Have dual pricing for high-medium and low income
countries as was practiced in FOSS4G-2015

We have had some valuable inputs from chairs of our
previous event. The new board  should try to have a broader
feedback (Lime survey maybe?) from our charter members to
look for some innovative ways of handling the issue of affordability
of our global event.

Best

Venka



On 10/16/2017 3:59 PM, Ravi Kumar wrote:

Hi List,
happy to note that 'FOSS4G being Costly/Unaffordable', is discussed.
To make it fun, spice is added on the TERM HANGOUT..

May be the next board will have FOSS4G for Business, where in 5* comforts
that might make business easy for OSGeo.
Will also have, 'FOSS4G Developers', where in young students/Reserchers can
have a great conference.

  Some fine tuning may make, Say , 1st 2 days 5 Star.. Next two affordable.
But in a world where, 'COST some times means Efficiency', may not, 'play
ball', with this Idea.

Cheers.. and All the best to the Hopefuls

Ravi Kumar


On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 11:19 AM, Jody Garnett
wrote:


Okay I checked that the report is not published yet (sigh). I really
appreciated Jeff's answer, and agree that regional foss4g events are seeing
great success and are much more affordable.

To answer your question:

*'Do you agree that FOSS4G is turning out to be a hangout for those who
can afford it'*..

I have never agreed that FOSS4G is a hangout - I continue to view it as
our most effective outreach event.

*costs (of participation) are  so high that many might not afford.. *

I very much agree with this, indeed I was only able to attend the Lausanne
event by the kindness of people letting me sleep on their hotel floor. I
have tried to return the favour each time the event took place in my home
city.

*If selected to the board HOW do you wish to correct this...*

This is a tricky one, in part because I do not have to imagine - here is
my own recommendation from thebo...@osgeo.org  email list thread: f2f
meeting follow up
:

On 21 August 2017 at 11:23, Jody Garnett 
wrote:

*I saw this thread get into the details of the RFP - for that we have*
*volunteers on the conference committee. My goal as a board member is to*
*work on strategy, as the conference committee knows best about the RFP*
*wording and process.*

**Q: *Based on the affordability report, and resulting discussion, did we
as **the board have any direction to ask the conference committee to
steer in?*

*My own feedback:*


*1) I was pleasantly surprised that the ticket cost of foss4g has not **changed
significantly over the course of the events (indeed our most **expensive
event was Sydney and our cheapest Korea).*

*I do not see any guidance to provide here (this was surprising to me).*

*2) Attendance continues to increase limiting appropriate venues*

*I do not see any guidence to provide here, our community and event is 
**growing.
I think once we get around 3000 people we may be forced to settle **down
to consider a fixed location, but at 1000-2000 we can still move it *
*around.*

*3) regional events are killing it*

*I do not see any guidence to provide here, our community and events is *
*growing. **The hope is this takes some of the strain from the global
event, allowing **it to focus on outreach and advocacy more.*

*4) hard for students to attend (also journal, etc...)*

*There was a strong hope that travel grant program could help out a lot **here,
that would make me sad as this was intended to work towards **diversity.*

*While there may be guidance here I am not close enough to the academic **world
to provide useful direction.*

*5) diversity*

*The original intention of the travel grant was to bring diversity
awareness **to our osgeo events (to apply regional events are asked to
set a diversity **target which travel grant can help towards). During
foss4g I attended a **diversity presentation that advocated creating a
safe space.*

**Guidance: *Trial the use of providing a safe space in the 2018 bid.*

*Similar recommendations online include:*
*- make female speakers a priority (not just in selection, but before hand*
*in promotion, one-on-one mentoring etc...).*

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Costly FOSS4Gs

[Venkatesh Raghavan]

Hi Ravi,

Thanks for the question and your suggestion below;

I have expressed my opinion in the conference and
board mailing list where this matter as been discussed
on several occasion.

I think there is still some scope for considering ways
and means to enhance affordability. Maybe by,

a) Alternating between business focused (big convention
center plus all the frills of a Tech Expo) and an R
focused (low cost venue, no-frills, low-cost-carrier model)

b) Have dual pricing for high-medium and low income
countries as was practiced in FOSS4G-2015

We have had some valuable inputs from chairs of our
previous event. The new board  should try to have a broader
feedback (Lime survey maybe?) from our charter members to
look for some innovative ways of handling the issue of affordability
of our global event.

Best

Venka



On 10/16/2017 3:59 PM, Ravi Kumar wrote:

Hi List,
happy to note that 'FOSS4G being Costly/Unaffordable', is discussed.
To make it fun, spice is added on the TERM HANGOUT..

May be the next board will have FOSS4G for Business, where in 5* comforts
that might make business easy for OSGeo.
Will also have, 'FOSS4G Developers', where in young students/Reserchers can
have a great conference.

  Some fine tuning may make, Say , 1st 2 days 5 Star.. Next two affordable.
But in a world where, 'COST some times means Efficiency', may not, 'play
ball', with this Idea.

Cheers.. and All the best to the Hopefuls

Ravi Kumar


On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 11:19 AM, Jody Garnett 
wrote:


Okay I checked that the report is not published yet (sigh). I really
appreciated Jeff's answer, and agree that regional foss4g events are seeing
great success and are much more affordable.

To answer your question:

*'Do you agree that FOSS4G is turning out to be a hangout for those who
can afford it'*..

I have never agreed that FOSS4G is a hangout - I continue to view it as
our most effective outreach event.

*costs (of participation) are  so high that many might not afford.. *

I very much agree with this, indeed I was only able to attend the Lausanne
event by the kindness of people letting me sleep on their hotel floor. I
have tried to return the favour each time the event took place in my home
city.

*If selected to the board HOW do you wish to correct this...*

This is a tricky one, in part because I do not have to imagine - here is
my own recommendation from the bo...@osgeo.org email list thread: f2f
meeting follow up
:

On 21 August 2017 at 11:23, Jody Garnett 
wrote:

*I saw this thread get into the details of the RFP - for that we have*
*volunteers on the conference committee. My goal as a board member is to*
*work on strategy, as the conference committee knows best about the RFP*
*wording and process.*

**Q: *Based on the affordability report, and resulting discussion, did we
as **the board have any direction to ask the conference committee to
steer in?*

*My own feedback:*


*1) I was pleasantly surprised that the ticket cost of foss4g has not **changed
significantly over the course of the events (indeed our most **expensive
event was Sydney and our cheapest Korea).*

*I do not see any guidance to provide here (this was surprising to me).*

*2) Attendance continues to increase limiting appropriate venues*

*I do not see any guidence to provide here, our community and event is 
**growing.
I think once we get around 3000 people we may be forced to settle **down
to consider a fixed location, but at 1000-2000 we can still move it *
*around.*

*3) regional events are killing it*

*I do not see any guidence to provide here, our community and events is *
*growing. **The hope is this takes some of the strain from the global
event, allowing **it to focus on outreach and advocacy more.*

*4) hard for students to attend (also journal, etc...)*

*There was a strong hope that travel grant program could help out a lot **here,
that would make me sad as this was intended to work towards **diversity.*

*While there may be guidance here I am not close enough to the academic **world
to provide useful direction.*

*5) diversity*

*The original intention of the travel grant was to bring diversity
awareness **to our osgeo events (to apply regional events are asked to
set a diversity **target which travel grant can help towards). During
foss4g I attended a **diversity presentation that advocated creating a
safe space.*

**Guidance: *Trial the use of providing a safe space in the 2018 bid.*

*Similar recommendations online include:*
*- make female speakers a priority (not just in selection, but before hand*
*in promotion, one-on-one mentoring etc...).*
*- providing child care (this helps families attend)*

*Since these haver not been advocated by members of our community I am
only **comfortable providing guidance on providing a safe space. Perhaps
some of **these ideas can be tried out at regional conferences first.*

*6) time of year*

*The events 

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Costly FOSS4Gs

[Ravi Kumar]

Hi List,
happy to note that 'FOSS4G being Costly/Unaffordable', is discussed.
To make it fun, spice is added on the TERM HANGOUT..

May be the next board will have FOSS4G for Business, where in 5* comforts
that might make business easy for OSGeo.
Will also have, 'FOSS4G Developers', where in young students/Reserchers can
have a great conference.

 Some fine tuning may make, Say , 1st 2 days 5 Star.. Next two affordable.
But in a world where, 'COST some times means Efficiency', may not, 'play
ball', with this Idea.

Cheers.. and All the best to the Hopefuls

Ravi Kumar


On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 11:19 AM, Jody Garnett 
wrote:

> Okay I checked that the report is not published yet (sigh). I really
> appreciated Jeff's answer, and agree that regional foss4g events are seeing
> great success and are much more affordable.
>
> To answer your question:
>
> *'Do you agree that FOSS4G is turning out to be a hangout for those who
> can afford it'*..
>
> I have never agreed that FOSS4G is a hangout - I continue to view it as
> our most effective outreach event.
>
> *costs (of participation) are  so high that many might not afford.. *
>
> I very much agree with this, indeed I was only able to attend the Lausanne
> event by the kindness of people letting me sleep on their hotel floor. I
> have tried to return the favour each time the event took place in my home
> city.
>
> *If selected to the board HOW do you wish to correct this...*
>
> This is a tricky one, in part because I do not have to imagine - here is
> my own recommendation from the bo...@osgeo.org email list thread: f2f
> meeting follow up
> :
>
> On 21 August 2017 at 11:23, Jody Garnett 
> wrote:
>
> *I saw this thread get into the details of the RFP - for that we have*
> *volunteers on the conference committee. My goal as a board member is to*
> *work on strategy, as the conference committee knows best about the RFP*
> *wording and process.*
>
> **Q: *Based on the affordability report, and resulting discussion, did we
> as **the board have any direction to ask the conference committee to
> steer in?*
>
> *My own feedback:*
>
>
> *1) I was pleasantly surprised that the ticket cost of foss4g has not 
> **changed
> significantly over the course of the events (indeed our most **expensive
> event was Sydney and our cheapest Korea).*
>
> *I do not see any guidance to provide here (this was surprising to me).*
>
> *2) Attendance continues to increase limiting appropriate venues*
>
> *I do not see any guidence to provide here, our community and event is 
> **growing.
> I think once we get around 3000 people we may be forced to settle **down
> to consider a fixed location, but at 1000-2000 we can still move it *
> *around.*
>
> *3) regional events are killing it*
>
> *I do not see any guidence to provide here, our community and events is *
> *growing. **The hope is this takes some of the strain from the global
> event, allowing **it to focus on outreach and advocacy more.*
>
> *4) hard for students to attend (also journal, etc...)*
>
> *There was a strong hope that travel grant program could help out a lot 
> **here,
> that would make me sad as this was intended to work towards **diversity.*
>
> *While there may be guidance here I am not close enough to the academic 
> **world
> to provide useful direction.*
>
> *5) diversity*
>
> *The original intention of the travel grant was to bring diversity
> awareness **to our osgeo events (to apply regional events are asked to
> set a diversity **target which travel grant can help towards). During
> foss4g I attended a **diversity presentation that advocated creating a
> safe space.*
>
> **Guidance: *Trial the use of providing a safe space in the 2018 bid.*
>
> *Similar recommendations online include:*
> *- make female speakers a priority (not just in selection, but before hand*
> *in promotion, one-on-one mentoring etc...).*
> *- providing child care (this helps families attend)*
>
> *Since these haver not been advocated by members of our community I am
> only **comfortable providing guidance on providing a safe space. Perhaps
> some of **these ideas can be tried out at regional conferences first.*
>
> *6) time of year*
>
> *The events have moved from September/October to August placing it in the 
> **way
> of European holidays. With the bulk of our contributors in Europe this **has
> affected how many of our contributors can attend.*
>
> **Guidance: *Request September / October event (to maximize contributors
> who **can attend).*
>
> *I understand next years event has plans to turn this into a holiday for 
> **families
> which is a cunning plan.*
>
> *7) travel / accommodation*
>
> *I would like to avoid prime tourist season to avoid asking attendees pay 
> **high
> airfair and accommodation costs. We did not have the number in the 
> **affordability
> report to back this up (but Michael Smith was going to look **things up).*
>
> 

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Costly FOSS4Gs

[María Arias de Reyna]

On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 1:44 AM, Ravi Kumar 
wrote:

>
>
> Question  (would be Board).  'Do you agree that FOSS4G is turning out to
> be a hangout for those who can afford it'.. costs (of participation) are
> so high that many might not afford.. If selected to the board HOW do you
> wish to correct this..
>

Hi,

I don't know if you are following the current FOSS4G process to select the
next venue. It turns out that I am proposing to host FOSS4G 2019 in
Sevilla. So I have studied this very close recently. And Jeff is right, it
is very difficult to find a cheap place where you can have so many people
at the same time. Organizing a conference when you have more than 500
attendees is a huge step forward and requires a lot of investment in
organization. Now we are getting closer to the 1500 attendees, can you
imagine how difficult is to cut costs if we want to succeed?

It was Vasile (who is also competing with Bucarest as venue) who made the
spreadsheet comparison about prices and the conclusion is that prices have
been very stable among the years if you take inflation into consideration.
Ok, we have had an economic depression in some countries and inflation is
not the same worldwide. But prices are not getting so much higher as the
general public perceives. I hope he can make this numbers public soon, as
it was a very interesting spreadsheet about the evolution of FOSS4G.

Said this: we can try to make FOSS4G more affordable, and indeed we should.
What would I do if I were on the board to get that? Well, if you take a
look at the proposal I am chairing in Sevilla[1][2], you will see we are
going to lower the prices, get more funds from the general budget for
travel grants (and not only wait for people to donate) and also the venue
is very cheap to stay at. Having countries that have problems travelling to
FOSS4G close is also a good push, but that's not always possible.

I think travel grants are a really good thing to improve. But that also
means having less surplus from FOSS4G, which is used for other events which
are smaller and can be helpful to reach those who can't afford FOSS4G. How
do we find balance here?

Maybe the idea of everyone going to every FOSS4G is the problem. Having
regional FOSS4G and smaller events is a good way to reach those who can't
afford to travel (and not only for economic reasons). Of course I would
like everyone to be able to travel to FOSS4G regularly, but I think that's
not realistic. Taking a full week of holidays for it or making your company
pay for your travel (if you have a job!) is not that easy even if you have
the money. What about your family and people who depend on you? What about
people who have political problems to travel? There is a lot of cases where
travelling out of your country or more than a couple of days is a nightmare.

I would try to do both approaches: make FOSS4G more affordable with travel
grants (who may not pay in all cases the full costs but maybe only part of
it to reach more people?) and also reinforce the regional and local events.
Lowering the general public cost of a FOSS4G is not as easy as it sounds as
many things depends on the (not so big) surplus of FOSS4G.

This is a topic to discuss in more detail in the future.

[1]
https://svn.osgeo.org/osgeo/foss4g/proposals/2019/FOSS4G%202019%20Letter%20of%20Intent%20for%20Sevilla.pdf
[2] https://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/FOSS4G2019_Q%26A_Sevilla

Regards,
María.
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Costly FOSS4Gs

[Jody Garnett]

Okay I checked that the report is not published yet (sigh). I really
appreciated Jeff's answer, and agree that regional foss4g events are seeing
great success and are much more affordable.

To answer your question:

*'Do you agree that FOSS4G is turning out to be a hangout for those who can
afford it'*..

I have never agreed that FOSS4G is a hangout - I continue to view it as our
most effective outreach event.

*costs (of participation) are  so high that many might not afford.. *

I very much agree with this, indeed I was only able to attend the Lausanne
event by the kindness of people letting me sleep on their hotel floor. I
have tried to return the favour each time the event took place in my home
city.

*If selected to the board HOW do you wish to correct this...*

This is a tricky one, in part because I do not have to imagine - here is my
own recommendation from the bo...@osgeo.org email list thread: f2f meeting
follow up :

On 21 August 2017 at 11:23, Jody Garnett  wrote:

*I saw this thread get into the details of the RFP - for that we have*
*volunteers on the conference committee. My goal as a board member is to*
*work on strategy, as the conference committee knows best about the RFP*
*wording and process.*

**Q: *Based on the affordability report, and resulting discussion, did we
as **the board have any direction to ask the conference committee to steer
in?*

*My own feedback:*


*1) I was pleasantly surprised that the ticket cost of foss4g has not **changed
significantly over the course of the events (indeed our most **expensive
event was Sydney and our cheapest Korea).*

*I do not see any guidance to provide here (this was surprising to me).*

*2) Attendance continues to increase limiting appropriate venues*

*I do not see any guidence to provide here, our community and event is
**growing.
I think once we get around 3000 people we may be forced to settle **down to
consider a fixed location, but at 1000-2000 we can still move it **around.*

*3) regional events are killing it*

*I do not see any guidence to provide here, our community and events is *
*growing. **The hope is this takes some of the strain from the global
event, allowing **it to focus on outreach and advocacy more.*

*4) hard for students to attend (also journal, etc...)*

*There was a strong hope that travel grant program could help out a lot **here,
that would make me sad as this was intended to work towards **diversity.*

*While there may be guidance here I am not close enough to the academic **world
to provide useful direction.*

*5) diversity*

*The original intention of the travel grant was to bring diversity
awareness **to our osgeo events (to apply regional events are asked to set
a diversity **target which travel grant can help towards). During foss4g I
attended a **diversity presentation that advocated creating a safe space.*

**Guidance: *Trial the use of providing a safe space in the 2018 bid.*

*Similar recommendations online include:*
*- make female speakers a priority (not just in selection, but before hand*
*in promotion, one-on-one mentoring etc...).*
*- providing child care (this helps families attend)*

*Since these haver not been advocated by members of our community I am
only **comfortable providing guidance on providing a safe space. Perhaps
some of **these ideas can be tried out at regional conferences first.*

*6) time of year*

*The events have moved from September/October to August placing it in the **way
of European holidays. With the bulk of our contributors in Europe this **has
affected how many of our contributors can attend.*

**Guidance: *Request September / October event (to maximize contributors
who **can attend).*

*I understand next years event has plans to turn this into a holiday
for **families
which is a cunning plan.*

*7) travel / accommodation*

*I would like to avoid prime tourist season to avoid asking attendees
pay **high
airfair and accommodation costs. We did not have the number in the
**affordability
report to back this up (but Michael Smith was going to look **things up).*

**Guidance: *Request September / October event (to avoid peak tourist *
*season).*


Followed by:

*> 5) diversity*

*On reflection I am a bit uncomfortable offering guidance here - lacking
the **needed perspective. I would ask that the conference committee
consider **diversity as a selection criteria, but would hold off on
providing specific **advice listed above. I recognize that the board as a
whole is a diverse **body and may be in position to offer guidance.*

*I just don't think it is my place either as a board member (need to
trust **the
marketing committee) or as a white male (can offer only concern, not *
*perspective).*

*Aside: This whole discussion has increased my respect for the
conference **committee,
this is tough stuff. I thank those who contribute positively as **part of
the conference committee.*



The thing to note is that as a 

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Costly FOSS4Gs

[Jeff McKenna]

Hi Ravi,

Great question, and an important topic for Charter members.  I know 
there was a recent spreadsheet of relative costs (I was shown it 
post-FOSS4G Boston), but that doesn't answer your question at all, as 
your question is asking for our own opinions.


As you know, I have attended and help organize many FOSS4G events, 
local, regional, and international, which gives me a good perspective to 
analyze this.  In fact on Friday I'll leave for FOSS4G-State-of-the-Map 
Argentina, which has a full registration cost of 20 USD (yes you read 
that correct, not including workshop cost).  FOSS4G-Europe (I've 
attended most of them) is consistently very affordable, and geared for 
students.  Your FOSS4G-India is also geared for students.  FOSS4G-Japan 
events (Kyoto.Kansai is happening now) is usually held at university 
campuses or affordable venues.  FOSS4G-Asia events are always geared for 
students, and are very affordable.  FOSS4G-Russia events are very 
affordable (attendees must buy or bring their own lunches, and have no 
problem with that). Our international FOSS4G's are not affordable 
however, because the venue costs are so high (usually large conference 
center venues, the only venue that can hold such a high number of 
attendees usually, which has strict rules about food catering, and high 
costs for those) that the only way we can break even is to charge 
attendees a higher registration fee.


As I wrote in my manifesto, the original vision of FOSS4G by OSGeo was 
to plant a seed in a new community - this was my vision as I managed the 
selection process all those years.


Now fast forward to 2017, and what is OSGeo's vision of FOSS4G?  Let's 
be honest, there are now many different factors involved today, than 
back in 2005/2006.  We have such a strong academic, private, public 
sector community in OSGeo today that all have different needs and 
representation.  FOSS4G-Boston, at a strikingly gorgeous venue along the 
Boston waterfront, was heavily attended by industry - as you likely 
heard, it was an overwhelming success.  The harsh reality was that most 
of the core that attended FOSS4G-Europe a few weeks before could not 
afford FOSS4G-Boston (and it's downtown hotels etc).  But that is not a 
knock against the Boston event - as that spreadsheet shows, the relative 
costs haven't changed much, it has always been an expensive event.


So how do we have both, a core event where we can all afford to attend, 
and at the same time have a bigger event that is needed by all academic, 
private, public sectors?  Well, this in my opinion is where our 
local/regional FOSS4G's play a very important role.


If I am elected to the Board, I would like to help bring the spotlight 
to these smaller FOSS4G events, and help introduce some funding to help 
these smaller events run by local chapters (recently I've tried 
assisting several smaller events around the world to get funding from 
the OSGeo Board, and I can tell you that it is very difficult for the 
smaller event organizers to see through the red tape currently in 
place).  I feel that we can do better as a foundation to help these 
smaller FOSS4G events grow and shine.  This is my focus.  (we do have 
Code Sprint funding available, but I'd like to put on the table for 
discussion a "FOSS4G Regional Event Funding" process, to the OSGeo 
Board, in the form of a grant/gift, nothing to do with "profit 
sharing").  This would of course depend on the upcoming budget for the 
foundation.  But that is one idea that I have.


In terms of reducing the cost of the international event, that is much 
more difficult.  I know Ravi, that breaks our OSGeo heart reading this, 
and it hurts writing that, but each year the local committee does their 
best to keep costs as low as possible, given the venue demands (Boston, 
the 2018 team, and the 2019 bidders all must keep cost under 
consideration).  And the OSGeo Conference Committee is tasked with 
keeping an eye on this as well.


I haven't solved anything, but I tried to give you my thoughts on your 
good question. I can tell you that I am very concerned about FOSS4G 
costs, and will do my best to represent your great interests, if elected 
:)  I will also try to analyze this analysis spreadsheet more closely, 
when I see it again (it was only shown to be in a dark bar ha, not the 
best setting).


Good night here Ravi!  Great question.  -jeff

Wishing good luck to all the great candidates this year.  You are all 
rock stars in my mind.






On 2017-10-15 8:44 PM, Ravi Kumar wrote:



Question  (would be Board).  'Do you agree that FOSS4G is turning out to 
be a hangout for those who can afford it'.. costs (of participation) are
so high that many might not afford.. If selected to the board HOW do you 
wish to correct this..


Ravi Kumar



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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Costly FOSS4Gs

[Jody Garnett]

We actually have solid numbers for this, a report was provided at the
Boston meeting that kind of answers this to my satisfaction.

I was waiting for it to be shared with the membership, since your question
was one I have been asked repeatedly over the last six months, especially
at foss4ge.

I would really like you to be able to read the report and reach your own
conclusion.

On Sun, Oct 15, 2017 at 4:45 PM Ravi Kumar 
wrote:

>
>
> Question  (would be Board).  'Do you agree that FOSS4G is turning out to
> be a hangout for those who can afford it'.. costs (of participation) are
> so high that many might not afford.. If selected to the board HOW do you
> wish to correct this..
>
> Ravi Kumar
> ___
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-- 
--
Jody Garnett
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[OSGeo-Discuss] Costly FOSS4Gs

[Ravi Kumar]

Question  (would be Board).  'Do you agree that FOSS4G is turning out to be
a hangout for those who can afford it'.. costs (of participation) are
so high that many might not afford.. If selected to the board HOW do you
wish to correct this..

Ravi Kumar
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