Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Gender bias in nominations
On Thu, Jul 24, 2014 at 11:57 PM, Jeff McKenna jmcke...@gatewaygeomatics.com wrote: Thank you everyone for responding (María, Jo, Anne, Madi, Andrea, mpg, Cameron, and Regina). I agree that the OSGeo community is always welcoming, and thank you for confirming that there is no issue with the election/nomination process. It is sometimes hard when I receive direct messages with concerns and thank you for helping me handle it. With my statistician hat on here, I have to point out that this is what we call a biased sample. Not that the individuals are biased themselves, but the group is necessarily going to be made up of, lets say, satisfied customers. For every Jo there may be a dozen Janes who tried to contribute to OSGeo, found it an unwelcoming place, and quietly left with no complaint or fuss. Complaining about bullying and harrassment can be very difficult, and especially in a voluntary group many will just get on with their real jobs, not seeing any great loss to themselves in not being part of it. This contrasts with harrassment/bullying at work, where there is greater necessity to speak out, and, one would hope, there are established complaints procedures and a helpful union to argue for you. Personally I think the gender imbalance in tech springs from the day baby girls are first dressed in pink and given dolls and baby boys dressed in blue and given toy guns. I'm hopeful that society is getting better - although slowly. Teach your children well as Crosby Stills and Nash did sing... Barry ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
[OSGeo-Discuss] Gender bias in nominations
It has been reported to me directly that there are not enough female nominations for Charter members. I just want to bring this to the attention of the whole community. Thanks all, -jeff ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Gender bias in nominations
On Thu, Jul 24, 2014 at 4:45 PM, Jeff McKenna jmcke...@gatewaygeomatics.com wrote: It has been reported to me directly that there are not enough female nominations for Charter members. I just want to bring this to the attention of the whole community. Thanks all, -jeff Agreed. On the other hand, no one should be nominated just because of their gender. In the long run, it doesn't help increasing female numbers. (It won't be the first time someone thinks I am where I am just because I am female and not because I worked hard.) I'm sorry if I am bothering someone, but I am very picky with all this stuff. It is the eternal discussion about not having enough female in tech organizations. If we want to have more female on OsGeo, we should go to school now to have them in OsGeo in a few years :) Until then, does it really matter? Are we doing things different? I know it looks very cool to have half and half but, is it really important? Regards, María. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Gender bias in nominations
I totally agree with Maria. As a female member of OSGeo I don't really feel that my gender matters in the slightest. I'm far more concerned about a bias towards people from the US or Northern/Western Europe if we are trying to be truly global. Jo On Thu, Jul 24, 2014 at 3:55 PM, María Arias de Reyna delawen+os...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jul 24, 2014 at 4:45 PM, Jeff McKenna jmcke...@gatewaygeomatics.com wrote: It has been reported to me directly that there are not enough female nominations for Charter members. I just want to bring this to the attention of the whole community. Thanks all, -jeff Agreed. On the other hand, no one should be nominated just because of their gender. In the long run, it doesn't help increasing female numbers. (It won't be the first time someone thinks I am where I am just because I am female and not because I worked hard.) I'm sorry if I am bothering someone, but I am very picky with all this stuff. It is the eternal discussion about not having enough female in tech organizations. If we want to have more female on OsGeo, we should go to school now to have them in OsGeo in a few years :) Until then, does it really matter? Are we doing things different? I know it looks very cool to have half and half but, is it really important? Regards, María. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss -- *Jo Cook* Astun Technology Ltd, The Coach House, 17 West Street, Epsom, Surrey, KT18 7RL, UK t:+44 7930 524 155 iShare - Data integration and publishing platform http://www.isharemaps.com/ * Company registration no. 5410695. Registered in England and Wales. Registered office: 120 Manor Green Road, Epsom, Surrey, KT19 8LN VAT no. 864201149. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Gender bias in nominations
On Thu, 24 Jul 2014 16:55:16 +0200 María Arias de Reyna delawen+os...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jul 24, 2014 at 4:45 PM, Jeff McKenna jmcke...@gatewaygeomatics.com wrote: It has been reported to me directly that there are not enough female nominations for Charter members. I just want to bring this to the attention of the whole community. Thanks all, -jeff Agreed. On the other hand, no one should be nominated just because of their gender. In the long run, it doesn't help increasing female numbers. (It won't be the first time someone thinks I am where I am just because I am female and not because I worked hard.) I'm sorry if I am bothering someone, but I am very picky with all this stuff. It is the eternal discussion about not having enough female in tech organizations. If we want to have more female on OsGeo, we should go to school now to have them in OsGeo in a few years :) Until then, does it really matter? Are we doing things different? I know it looks very cool to have half and half but, is it really important? I agree with Maria. This remembers me some past discussions while creating OSGeo-Women mailing list. At first we can say that no one is preventing women to enter OSGeo jsut because they are women. But waiting the balance to change without doing nothing is in my opinion not the way to go. Also forcing a female quota like some countries do for elections is not the solution, because it gives gender more importance than merit. My idea is to give everyone the same possibilities, without giving gender/language/etc predefined choices. Therefore I really like the idea of talking about OSGeo in schools - and OSGeo education group is working in that direction, even if not (yet?) to younger kids. Of course this is an approach that will bring results in a long time, but I feel it is the strongest. Best, Anne -- http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/User:Aghisla signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Gender bias in nominations
Hi, thank you Jeff for having raised this matter, I find it really interesting for the sake of pure data analysis and discussion. I agree with Maria except one single point: is it really important? I think it is. As Maria points out, I agree it is not from OSGeo side that the problem should be addressed, because i don't see any barriers for women approaching OSGeo. On the contrary, it is one of the kindest and welcoming environment. But I think that it would be very interesting to analyse the real causes why women apparently seem not to be attracted by these subjects. I think that there are deeper sociological and practical reasons behind. It would be an interesting exercise to explore the correlation between number of females in open source/technology/science with some drivers such as the perspective of working stability offered by different countries, the facilities for working mothers offered by private and public sectors and so on. I think that exploring such reasons in detail would really help to improve society and to offer real equal opportunities to every citizen. Best, madi On Thu, Jul 24, 2014 at 4:55 PM, María Arias de Reyna delawen+os...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jul 24, 2014 at 4:45 PM, Jeff McKenna jmcke...@gatewaygeomatics.com wrote: It has been reported to me directly that there are not enough female nominations for Charter members. I just want to bring this to the attention of the whole community. Thanks all, -jeff Agreed. On the other hand, no one should be nominated just because of their gender. In the long run, it doesn't help increasing female numbers. (It won't be the first time someone thinks I am where I am just because I am female and not because I worked hard.) I'm sorry if I am bothering someone, but I am very picky with all this stuff. It is the eternal discussion about not having enough female in tech organizations. If we want to have more female on OsGeo, we should go to school now to have them in OsGeo in a few years :) Until then, does it really matter? Are we doing things different? I know it looks very cool to have half and half but, is it really important? Regards, María. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss -- Best regards, Dr. Margherita DI LEO Scientific / technical project officer European Commission - DG JRC Institute for Environment and Sustainability (IES) Via Fermi, 2749 I-21027 Ispra (VA) - Italy - TP 261 Tel. +39 0332 78 3600 margherita.di-...@jrc.ec.europa.eu Disclaimer: The views expressed are purely those of the writer and may not in any circumstance be regarded as stating an official position of the European Commission. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Gender bias in nominations
Ciao Andrea, On Thu, Jul 24, 2014 at 5:43 PM, Andrea Giacomelli pibi...@gmail.com wrote: quick question: does OSGEO have a feel -or even better a number- of the gender proportion in the OSGEO population? (take for instance this mailing list as a proxy). When you subscribe this ML you're not (hopefully) asked about your gender ... cheers, madi best Andrea http://www.pibinko.org ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Gender bias in nominations
quick question: does OSGEO have a feel -or even better a number- of the gender proportion in the OSGEO population? (take for instance this mailing list as a proxy). best Andrea http://www.pibinko.org 2014-07-24 17:16 GMT+02:00 Margherita Di Leo dileomargher...@gmail.com: Hi, thank you Jeff for having raised this matter, I find it really interesting for the sake of pure data analysis and discussion. I agree with Maria except one single point: is it really important? I think it is. As Maria points out, I agree it is not from OSGeo side that the problem should be addressed, because i don't see any barriers for women approaching OSGeo. On the contrary, it is one of the kindest and welcoming environment. But I think that it would be very interesting to analyse the real causes why women apparently seem not to be attracted by these subjects. I think that there are deeper sociological and practical reasons behind. It would be an interesting exercise to explore the correlation between number of females in open source/technology/science with some drivers such as the perspective of working stability offered by different countries, the facilities for working mothers offered by private and public sectors and so on. I think that exploring such reasons in detail would really help to improve society and to offer real equal opportunities to every citizen. Best, madi On Thu, Jul 24, 2014 at 4:55 PM, María Arias de Reyna delawen+os...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jul 24, 2014 at 4:45 PM, Jeff McKenna jmcke...@gatewaygeomatics.com wrote: It has been reported to me directly that there are not enough female nominations for Charter members. I just want to bring this to the attention of the whole community. Thanks all, -jeff Agreed. On the other hand, no one should be nominated just because of their gender. In the long run, it doesn't help increasing female numbers. (It won't be the first time someone thinks I am where I am just because I am female and not because I worked hard.) I'm sorry if I am bothering someone, but I am very picky with all this stuff. It is the eternal discussion about not having enough female in tech organizations. If we want to have more female on OsGeo, we should go to school now to have them in OsGeo in a few years :) Until then, does it really matter? Are we doing things different? I know it looks very cool to have half and half but, is it really important? Regards, María. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss -- Best regards, Dr. Margherita DI LEO Scientific / technical project officer European Commission - DG JRC Institute for Environment and Sustainability (IES) Via Fermi, 2749 I-21027 Ispra (VA) - Italy - TP 261 Tel. +39 0332 78 3600 margherita.di-...@jrc.ec.europa.eu Disclaimer: The views expressed are purely those of the writer and may not in any circumstance be regarded as stating an official position of the European Commission. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Gender bias in nominations
right...I said for instance to identify a population - does OSGEO have a feel -or even better a number- of the gender proportion in the OSGEO population? in the 2007-2010 times for GFOSS.it we used to ask about gender (or rather: it was easier to detect the information for members of the Italian chapter), and we used to present these statistics in events etc. so as to give different angles on our communitiy, together with age ranges, and other simple census parameters, and this type of view was appreciated. Not sure if this practice is still going on... I was just considering that if we don't know what it the actual gender proportion in the whole OSGEO community, the gender proportion in nominations for Charter members may be interpreted more subjectively. ciao andrea http://www.pibinko.org 2014-07-24 17:47 GMT+02:00 Margherita Di Leo dileomargher...@gmail.com: Ciao Andrea, On Thu, Jul 24, 2014 at 5:43 PM, Andrea Giacomelli pibi...@gmail.com wrote: quick question: does OSGEO have a feel -or even better a number- of the gender proportion in the OSGEO population? (take for instance this mailing list as a proxy). When you subscribe this ML you're not (hopefully) asked about your gender ... cheers, madi best Andrea http://www.pibinko.org ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Gender bias in nominations
Jo wrote: As a female member of OSGeo I don't really feel that my gender matters in the slightest. Having heard too many sad stories from across the software industry, and having seen a couple first-hand, that totally makes my day. We’re doing something right, folks. Thanks. -mpg ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Gender bias in nominations
I agree with Jo and Maria. I've always felt welcome in OSGeo primarily because I share many interests and philosophies with many of you. I think gender quotas will in long run do more damage than good. I'd hate to think people think I am where I am because of my gender or that people let me get away with stuff just because of my gender. People should be judged on merit and interest primarily and we should focus more on global expansion, education, and activity funding and the rest will fall into place. Thanks, Regina Obe _ From: discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org [mailto:discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org] On Behalf Of Jo Cook Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2014 10:59 AM To: María Arias de Reyna Cc: osgeo Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Gender bias in nominations I totally agree with Maria. As a female member of OSGeo I don't really feel that my gender matters in the slightest. I'm far more concerned about a bias towards people from the US or Northern/Western Europe if we are trying to be truly global. Jo On Thu, Jul 24, 2014 at 3:55 PM, María Arias de Reyna delawen+os...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jul 24, 2014 at 4:45 PM, Jeff McKenna jmcke...@gatewaygeomatics.com wrote: It has been reported to me directly that there are not enough female nominations for Charter members. I just want to bring this to the attention of the whole community. Thanks all, -jeff Agreed. On the other hand, no one should be nominated just because of their gender. In the long run, it doesn't help increasing female numbers. (It won't be the first time someone thinks I am where I am just because I am female and not because I worked hard.) I'm sorry if I am bothering someone, but I am very picky with all this stuff. It is the eternal discussion about not having enough female in tech organizations. If we want to have more female on OsGeo, we should go to school now to have them in OsGeo in a few years :) Until then, does it really matter? Are we doing things different? I know it looks very cool to have half and half but, is it really important? Regards, María. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss -- Jo Cook Astun Technology Ltd, The Coach House, 17 West Street, Epsom, Surrey, KT18 7RL, UK t:+44 7930 524 155 iShare - Data http://www.isharemaps.com/ integration and publishing platform * Company registration no. 5410695. Registered in England and Wales. Registered office: 120 Manor Green Road, Epsom, Surrey, KT19 8LN VAT no. 864201149. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Gender bias in nominations
Thank you everyone for responding (María, Jo, Anne, Madi, Andrea, mpg, Cameron, and Regina). I agree that the OSGeo community is always welcoming, and thank you for confirming that there is no issue with the election/nomination process. It is sometimes hard when I receive direct messages with concerns and thank you for helping me handle it. -jeff On 2014-07-24, 7:41 PM, Paragon Corporation wrote: I agree with Jo and Maria. I've always felt welcome in OSGeo primarily because I share many interests and philosophies with many of you. I think gender quotas will in long run do more damage than good. I'd hate to think people think I am where I am because of my gender or that people let me get away with stuff just because of my gender. People should be judged on merit and interest primarily and we should focus more on global expansion, education, and activity funding and the rest will fall into place. Thanks, Regina Obe *From:* discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org [mailto:discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org] *On Behalf Of *Jo Cook *Sent:* Thursday, July 24, 2014 10:59 AM *To:* María Arias de Reyna *Cc:* osgeo *Subject:* Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Gender bias in nominations I totally agree with Maria. As a female member of OSGeo I don't really feel that my gender matters in the slightest. I'm far more concerned about a bias towards people from the US or Northern/Western Europe if we are trying to be truly global. Jo On Thu, Jul 24, 2014 at 3:55 PM, María Arias de Reyna delawen+os...@gmail.com mailto:delawen+os...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jul 24, 2014 at 4:45 PM, Jeff McKenna jmcke...@gatewaygeomatics.com mailto:jmcke...@gatewaygeomatics.com wrote: It has been reported to me directly that there are not enough female nominations for Charter members. I just want to bring this to the attention of the whole community. Thanks all, -jeff Agreed. On the other hand, no one should be nominated just because of their gender. In the long run, it doesn't help increasing female numbers. (It won't be the first time someone thinks I am where I am just because I am female and not because I worked hard.) I'm sorry if I am bothering someone, but I am very picky with all this stuff. It is the eternal discussion about not having enough female in tech organizations. If we want to have more female on OsGeo, we should go to school now to have them in OsGeo in a few years :) Until then, does it really matter? Are we doing things different? I know it looks very cool to have half and half but, is it really important? Regards, María. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org mailto:Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss -- ***Jo Cook* Astun Technology Ltd, The Coach House, 17 West Street, Epsom, Surrey, KT18 7RL, UK t:+44 7930 524 155 iShare - Data integration and publishing platform http://www.isharemaps.com/ * Company registration no. 5410695. Registered in England and Wales. Registered office: 120 Manor Green Road, Epsom, Surrey, KT19 8LN VAT no. 864201149. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Gender bias in nominations
Reclaiming Like a girl to no longer be an insult highlights that language is an important part of our interactions. While on campaigns, here are another two specifically on tech and gender, both with major corporate backing [0][1]. Circling back to OSGeo Charter Member nominations, Jeff received a report that there are not enough female nominees. The most direct way to address this is to think of the people you know and interact with, if some of those people are women and have the positive attributes [2] in the recommended membership selection criteria, nominate them or bring that person's contributions and positive attributes to the attention of someone else who can nominate them. You can run through a mental list of who you think already is or should be a Charter Member and then see if it is true [3] and then nominate them. You can do this whether you think that there are enough female nominees or not. You can also use this process for men. While commenting on nominations, I'll share that the best nominations provided a relevant summary and support it with some links. Nominations in this form make it easy to evaluate and determine that the nominee has the positive attributes sought in Charter Members [2]. Best regards, Eli [0] http://www.verizon.com/powerfulanswers/inspirehermind/ [1] https://www.madewithcode.com/ [2] http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Membership_Process#Positive_Attributes [3] http://www.osgeo.org/charter_members On Thu, Jul 24, 2014 at 1:20 PM, Cameron Shorter cameron.shor...@gmail.com wrote: For those interested in gender bias, you might want to look at this Like a girl campaign, which questions the meaning that Like a girl has in our language, and suggests redefining it. http://m.dailylife.com.au/life-and-love/parenting-and-families/the-advertising-campaign-that-will-make-you-proud-to-run-like-a-girl-20140627-3ax9w.html?utm_source=socialutm_medium=facebookutm_campaign=juneeid=socialn:fac-13omn1676-edtrl-other:nnn-17/02/2014-edtrs_socialshare-all-nnn-nnn-vars-o On 25/07/2014 12:59 am, Jo Cook wrote: I totally agree with Maria. As a female member of OSGeo I don't really feel that my gender matters in the slightest. I'm far more concerned about a bias towards people from the US or Northern/Western Europe if we are trying to be truly global. Jo On Thu, Jul 24, 2014 at 3:55 PM, María Arias de Reyna delawen+os...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jul 24, 2014 at 4:45 PM, Jeff McKenna jmcke...@gatewaygeomatics.com wrote: It has been reported to me directly that there are not enough female nominations for Charter members. I just want to bring this to the attention of the whole community. Thanks all, -jeff Agreed. On the other hand, no one should be nominated just because of their gender. In the long run, it doesn't help increasing female numbers. (It won't be the first time someone thinks I am where I am just because I am female and not because I worked hard.) I'm sorry if I am bothering someone, but I am very picky with all this stuff. It is the eternal discussion about not having enough female in tech organizations. If we want to have more female on OsGeo, we should go to school now to have them in OsGeo in a few years :) Until then, does it really matter? Are we doing things different? I know it looks very cool to have half and half but, is it really important? Regards, María. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss -- Jo Cook Astun Technology Ltd, The Coach House, 17 West Street, Epsom, Surrey, KT18 7RL, UK t:+44 7930 524 155 iShare - Data integration and publishing platform * Company registration no. 5410695. Registered in England and Wales. Registered office: 120 Manor Green Road, Epsom, Surrey, KT19 8LN VAT no. 864201149. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss -- Cameron Shorter, Software and Data Solutions Manager LISAsoft Suite 112, Jones Bay Wharf, 26 - 32 Pirrama Rd, Pyrmont NSW 2009 P +61 2 9009 5000, W www.lisasoft.com, F +61 2 9009 5099 ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
