Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo barriers to entry
Frank Warmerdam ha scritto: Certainly all of the above tend to apply to many people contributing to OSGeo projects. Certainly the bulk of my work on GDAL, and MapServer is client funded. I know that most of the contributors to GDAL and MapServer have at least some of their time funded. Likewise many of the other projects though my knowledge gets thinner on some of them. I think one challenge is to get people who have funded time to work on specific features into broader involvement with the projects and OSGeo in general. I believe the idea that OSGEO projects contributor tend to be paid to work on the project itself is the result the very selection criteria to become an OSGEO project: - mature project - established user base - a formal governance model This tells me the project has lots of contributors, lots of people that have a stake on it, a big enough user base that the possibility of funding is no more a pipe dream but a solid reality. Such a project by its very nature will tend to attract more people that can find funding to work on the project itself. Also, being estabilshed, it will have some barriers to entry in terms of the code base size and complexity itself, and QA processes that will make it harder to just look at the project for a weekend, cook up something, give it back and disappear. I guess one of the challenges for projects in OSGEO is exactly that: how do we create easy contribution opportunities that can be tackled with limited effort by people interested in contributing a weekend and/or just get a little involved in the community? Cheers Andrea -- Andrea Aime OpenGeo - http://opengeo.org Expert service straight from the developers. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo barriers to entry
On Nov 17, 2009, at 4:51 AM, Andrea Aime wrote: Frank Warmerdam ha scritto: Certainly all of the above tend to apply to many people contributing to OSGeo projects. Certainly the bulk of my work on GDAL, and MapServer is client funded. I know that most of the contributors to GDAL and MapServer have at least some of their time funded. Likewise many of the other projects though my knowledge gets thinner on some of them. I think one challenge is to get people who have funded time to work on specific features into broader involvement with the projects and OSGeo in general. I believe the idea that OSGEO projects contributor tend to be paid to work on the project itself is the result the very selection criteria to become an OSGEO project: - mature project - established user base - a formal governance model This tells me the project has lots of contributors, lots of people that have a stake on it, a big enough user base that the possibility of funding is no more a pipe dream but a solid reality. Such a project by its very nature will tend to attract more people that can find funding to work on the project itself. Also, being estabilshed, it will have some barriers to entry in terms of the code base size and complexity itself, and QA processes that will make it harder to just look at the project for a weekend, cook up something, give it back and disappear. I guess one of the challenges for projects in OSGEO is exactly that: how do we create easy contribution opportunities that can be tackled with limited effort by people interested in contributing a weekend and/or just get a little involved in the community? GRASS add-ons with limited SVN access seem to work well in this regard - we got a lot of good contributions and it is a good place for students to submit their work as well. The most useful add-ons eventually make it into the main GRASS code, Helena Cheers Andrea -- Andrea Aime OpenGeo - http://opengeo.org Expert service straight from the developers. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo barriers to entry
Andrea, You wrote: This tells me the project has lots of contributors, lots of people that have a stake on it, a big enough user base that the possibility of funding is no more a pipe dream but a solid reality. Such a project by its very nature will tend to attract more people that can find funding to work on the project itself. I'm curious about how we get a project to the point you describe. That seems to be an even greater challenge. Landon Office Phone Number: (209) 946-0268 Cell Phone Number: (209) 992-0658 -Original Message- From: discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org [mailto:discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org] On Behalf Of Andrea Aime Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 1:51 AM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo barriers to entry Frank Warmerdam ha scritto: Certainly all of the above tend to apply to many people contributing to OSGeo projects. Certainly the bulk of my work on GDAL, and MapServer is client funded. I know that most of the contributors to GDAL and MapServer have at least some of their time funded. Likewise many of the other projects though my knowledge gets thinner on some of them. I think one challenge is to get people who have funded time to work on specific features into broader involvement with the projects and OSGeo in general. I believe the idea that OSGEO projects contributor tend to be paid to work on the project itself is the result the very selection criteria to become an OSGEO project: - mature project - established user base - a formal governance model This tells me the project has lots of contributors, lots of people that have a stake on it, a big enough user base that the possibility of funding is no more a pipe dream but a solid reality. Such a project by its very nature will tend to attract more people that can find funding to work on the project itself. Also, being estabilshed, it will have some barriers to entry in terms of the code base size and complexity itself, and QA processes that will make it harder to just look at the project for a weekend, cook up something, give it back and disappear. I guess one of the challenges for projects in OSGEO is exactly that: how do we create easy contribution opportunities that can be tackled with limited effort by people interested in contributing a weekend and/or just get a little involved in the community? Cheers Andrea -- Andrea Aime OpenGeo - http://opengeo.org Expert service straight from the developers. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo barriers to entry
Landon Blake ha scritto: Andrea, You wrote: This tells me the project has lots of contributors, lots of people that have a stake on it, a big enough user base that the possibility of funding is no more a pipe dream but a solid reality. Such a project by its very nature will tend to attract more people that can find funding to work on the project itself. I'm curious about how we get a project to the point you describe. That seems to be an even greater challenge. If there was a recipe we would not see that many failed open source projects ;-) However someone wrote a book to help: http://producingoss.com/ Mind, the book will save people from obvious mistakes, and our course you need technical talent too, but past that, imho the personalities of the people involved (treating a project as a pile of code instead as a group of people is another common mistake imho), dedication, good timing and even just luck are really playing the difference between success and failure. Cheers Andrea -- Andrea Aime OpenGeo - http://opengeo.org Expert service straight from the developers. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
[OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo barriers to entry
Thanks for the discussion Landon. I'll leave Pandora well enough alone :) Perhaps we can turn the thread to discussing what are the real or perceived barriers people, in general, find to getting involved with OSGeo. I'm sure that any barriers women would have might also affect others, so it might be useful to broaden the discussion so more participate. 1 What barriers are there to joining OSGeo and its projects? 2 How can we be more inviting? Have you heard negative comments from potential members? Are there any reasons you might not invite a colleague to join? 3 How can we encourage more people to contribute to our projects or join with the OSGeo mission? 4 What areas in OSGeo and its projects need more helpers? 5 What are the most interesting/compelling aspects? I'm sure there are more pointed questions but these are just off the top of my head. Best wishes, Tyler - Original Message - From: Landon Blake lbl...@ksninc.com Date: Monday, November 16, 2009 1:01 pm Subject: RE: RE: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] new: OSGeo women mailing list To: tmitch...@osgeo.org Cc: OSGeo Discussions discuss@lists.osgeo.org Tyler, I understand your wife's perspective completely. It seems reasonable to conclude that there are fewer women involved in OSGeo projects because there are fewer women involved in open source computing to begin with. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo barriers to entry
Tyler Mitchell wrote: Thanks for the discussion Landon. I'll leave Pandora well enough alone :) By the way, Debian has a well established female user base: http://women.debian.org/ Best regards, -- Mateusz Loskot, http://mateusz.loskot.net Charter Member of OSGeo, http://osgeo.org ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo barriers to entry
Tyler, Perhaps this 'issue' is not so big after all... A comment that was made to me by a colleague after FOSS4G-2009 was that she thought that it was great to see such a high percentage of attendees were female; dramatically higher than she would have traditionally seen at a spatial / geoscience event in Australia. She commented further that this was a good reason to get more involved... Bruce -Original Message- From: discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org [mailto:discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org] On Behalf Of Tyler Mitchell Sent: Tuesday, 17 November 2009 9:07 AM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo barriers to entry Thanks for the discussion Landon. I'll leave Pandora well enough alone :) Perhaps we can turn the thread to discussing what are the real or perceived barriers people, in general, find to getting involved with OSGeo. I'm sure that any barriers women would have might also affect others, so it might be useful to broaden the discussion so more participate. 1 What barriers are there to joining OSGeo and its projects? 2 How can we be more inviting? Have you heard negative comments from potential members? Are there any reasons you might not invite a colleague to join? 3 How can we encourage more people to contribute to our projects or join with the OSGeo mission? 4 What areas in OSGeo and its projects need more helpers? 5 What are the most interesting/compelling aspects? I'm sure there are more pointed questions but these are just off the top of my head. Best wishes, Tyler - Original Message - From: Landon Blake lbl...@ksninc.com Date: Monday, November 16, 2009 1:01 pm Subject: RE: RE: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] new: OSGeo women mailing list To: tmitch...@osgeo.org Cc: OSGeo Discussions discuss@lists.osgeo.org Tyler, I understand your wife's perspective completely. It seems reasonable to conclude that there are fewer women involved in OSGeo projects because there are fewer women involved in open source computing to begin with. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo barriers to entry
Miles Fidelman wrote: Tyler Mitchell wrote: Perhaps we can turn the thread to discussing what are the real or perceived barriers people, in general, find to getting involved with OSGeo. I'm sure that any barriers women would have might also affect others, so it might be useful to broaden the discussion so more participate. 1 What barriers are there to joining OSGeo and its projects? Getting paid tends to be a big one. Seriously. Most of the successful open source projects I'm familiar with involved salaries or other work-related support. - University researchers working on grants (Apache) - Students working on thesis material (Linux) - IT staff developing software as part of their work, then open sourcing the software as a way to reduce ongoing support costs (Sympa) - Corporate developers open sourcing code to expand a user base (Erlang) - Government contractors working working on an SBIR contract (one of our current projects) - etc. Labors of love are fun, but ultimately most people have to pay the bills. I guess that leads to a central question: What are the day jobs of the core developers associated with OSGeo projects, to what extent are those developers paid to work on the projects, and what are the business reasons of their employers for doing so? Miles, Certainly all of the above tend to apply to many people contributing to OSGeo projects. Certainly the bulk of my work on GDAL, and MapServer is client funded. I know that most of the contributors to GDAL and MapServer have at least some of their time funded. Likewise many of the other projects though my knowledge gets thinner on some of them. I think one challenge is to get people who have funded time to work on specific features into broader involvement with the projects and OSGeo in general. Best regards, -- ---+-- I set the clouds in motion - turn up | Frank Warmerdam, warmer...@pobox.com light and sound - activate the windows | http://pobox.com/~warmerdam and watch the world go round - Rush| Geospatial Programmer for Rent ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo barriers to entry
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Bruce Bannerman ha scritto: Tyler, Perhaps this 'issue' is not so big after all... A comment that was made to me by a colleague after FOSS4G-2009 was that she thought that it was great to see such a high percentage of attendees were female; dramatically higher than she would have traditionally seen at a spatial / geoscience event in Australia. She commented further that this was a good reason to get more involved... That's good news - but we should not miss that it's the experience of only one person and that FOSS4G is not the perfect mirror of all OSGeo activities. Collecting other opinions on recent IRC chat on #osgeo, the issue is potentially big. It's a cultural one. It is not OSGeo task to change people's minds about women; but for sure raising awareness on known gender discrimination in OSS is a good step forward. Looking forward for more discussion and action on this specific topic, as well as on more generic entry barriers. all the best, Anne Bruce -Original Message- From: discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org [mailto:discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org] On Behalf Of Tyler Mitchell Sent: Tuesday, 17 November 2009 9:07 AM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo barriers to entry Thanks for the discussion Landon. I'll leave Pandora well enough alone :) Perhaps we can turn the thread to discussing what are the real or perceived barriers people, in general, find to getting involved with OSGeo. I'm sure that any barriers women would have might also affect others, so it might be useful to broaden the discussion so more participate. 1 What barriers are there to joining OSGeo and its projects? 2 How can we be more inviting? Have you heard negative comments from potential members? Are there any reasons you might not invite a colleague to join? 3 How can we encourage more people to contribute to our projects or join with the OSGeo mission? 4 What areas in OSGeo and its projects need more helpers? 5 What are the most interesting/compelling aspects? I'm sure there are more pointed questions but these are just off the top of my head. Best wishes, Tyler - Original Message - From: Landon Blake lbl...@ksninc.com Date: Monday, November 16, 2009 1:01 pm Subject: RE: RE: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] new: OSGeo women mailing list To: tmitch...@osgeo.org Cc: OSGeo Discussions discuss@lists.osgeo.org Tyler, I understand your wife's perspective completely. It seems reasonable to conclude that there are fewer women involved in OSGeo projects because there are fewer women involved in open source computing to begin with. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAksB338ACgkQzZ3g4YwFFgb5hgCfVrXEYmhVnAxpKhxNW5+JbeT1 GL4AniBvBpl3EVwosyf7ZILTHbO+EVfN =ReJs -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
