Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open Location Services
> The above makes sense, but honestly, I had never heard of this until > now, and I have been tinkering with open source for almost a decade > now. Most open source projects seemed organic to me. Someone had an > itch, they scratched it, they put it out, and the project either > gathered traction, or it died. Seems like my scholarship of open > source has been lacking in this aspect hugely. You will notice that I expressed the same concern from the other side of the street. When GeoTools is approached by a private company with functionality to "donate" we are often forced to say no. A couple of examples: - the jts-wrapper module was developed in 2004 offering ISO 19107 api wraped around the jts library. We accepted the library as an unsupported module in 2005, taking the time to add it to our build etc - and nothing has happened with it. As a result we will shortly be removing it. - OpenLS was offered but without community resources; or any requests from our user list asking for the functionality; we were forced to say no - the geometry module is a full fork of jts backed on to ISO 19107 api. Developed by a grad student and donated to the library; this time the university was on hand to help adding it to the build; and commercial funding was received to document the result. Still without an active maintainer uptake has been low and we will be removing it. > I wonder if I can find out the "packaging costs" of other projects, > for example, what was the packaging cost for MapServer, or GeoServer, > or OpenLayers, or Perl/Python, etc. These situations are often slightly different in that open source was used as venue to enable collaboration between several interested parties. In the case of OpenLS we don't have any interested parties. > Is this routine practice, or is this a consideration only when a > private company wants to put its code into open source? The cost of making code open source is measured in volunteer time; either someone such as yourself who is interested in the functionality; or an organisation paying their employees to do the work. Phrased another way a private company can benefit from making its code open source if it can attract a larger user community to cut down on testing costs. I recently "ran" these numbers for GeoServer. It costs LISAsoft a couple of days time to release the most recent GeoServer (thanks to LISAsoft for allowing us to take part!). In trade we got back around 4-5 useful bug reports. I figure each bug report represents someone downloading; installing; configuring (1-2 hours) and then taking the time to write a bug report; for a useful bug report that will take 1 hour). So 4 reports; 3 hours each = 12 hours. It took 16 hours to make the release - so from the standpoint of time saving it would of been cheaper for us to just do the testing ourselves. Now I am sure many more people downloaded and tried out the application; but if they did not report a bug the community is not benefiting from the release. We depend on this in order to maintain open-source's reputation for quality. The number of bug reports against GeoServer 2.0 vs the RC issued the week before really highlights the need to talk about this relationship between open source projects and the value of testing. > Another question -- if you don't put the code into open source, are > you somehow recouping this cost? In other words, does putting the code > into open source have any opportunity costs? Asked another way, if you > did just "dump the code into sourceforge," besides the potentially > legitimate worry that the project might just die, would you incur any > other cost? I don't think as professionals we could just dump the code on source forge; it would harm our reputation. > No, I don't have any sponsor. I am a rather indigent > academic/developer/activist with barely funds to keep myself afloat. I > am, however, still very curious about the magnitude of these > "packaging" costs. What are we talking about here? A few hundred, a > few thousand, a few tens of thousands, say, Euros (considering even > Kanye West doesn't want greenbacks anymore). You say above, "we can > look into it further." Does that imply that you haven't yet calculated > these packaging costs, but have a sense that they might be > substantial? It may also be measured in terms of man hours; we could make a copy of the code available to your organisation under an open source license (but that would not be the same as an open source project that you could take part in). This is some times seen as the difference between "open source" and "open development". OSGeo is focused on an open development model; we take pains to ask projects to document their decision making process and how new organisations and members can take part. > At the very least, because of this thread, I have now been made aware > of a potential aspect of open source about which I had absolutely no > idea until now. Don't get hung up on the phrase "packag
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open Location Services
Puneet, I don't have a specific answer for "How Much LISAsoft's OpenLS code costs to Open Source" yet, I'd need to do the analysis, and so I'll talk in general terms, based on my experience with other projects. 1. For LISAsoft, "Just dumping code into Sourceforge" is usually not an option. Our reputation is based upon our understanding of Open Source and producing quality software, and it would be detrimental to our image, and hence our future job prospects to do a poor job. 2. For simple projects, Open Sourcing can easily at least a few weeks, to put processes and web sites in place. But the bigger cost is growing and supporting the community, maybe one person day per week, for the rest of the year. I heard that Autodesk decided to provide a major re-write of their MapGuide Open Source software before Open Sourcing, which would likely have cost them man months, probably man years. 3. Yes, LISAsoft will miss out on opportunity costs because we derive commercial advantage by owning an OpenLS codebase. At the end of the day, our decision will be financial. Can we make more money by Open Sourcing or not. At LISAsoft we support both Open and Closed source business models, depending on which makes better business sense. P Kishor wrote: On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 8:49 AM, Daniel Morissette wrote: P Kishor wrote: On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 3:47 AM, Cameron Shorter wrote: P Kishor wrote: On Sun, Nov 1, 2009 at 1:26 PM, Cameron Shorter wrote: David, LISAsoft has a java implementation of OpenLS which we would like to Open Source if we can find a sponsor to cover our packaging costs. What kind of costs are "packaging costs," and what do they amount to generally, and for OpenLS, more specifically? P Kishor, As you are probably aware, just dumping code into sourceforge is not an effective way to start a successful Open Source project. There needs to be suitable technical documentation, development processes documentation, web pages set up, issue trackers put in place, access writes granted to developers, and then have at least one champion sit on email lists supporting new users. That is what I consider "packaging costs". The above makes sense, but honestly, I had never heard of this until now, and I have been tinkering with open source for almost a decade now. Most open source projects seemed organic to me. Someone had an itch, they scratched it, they put it out, and the project either gathered traction, or it died. Seems like my scholarship of open source has been lacking in this aspect hugely. Hi Puneet, I have to run now, so I don't have time for a long answer, but I just wanted to add that Cameron is right... unfortunately it's not as simple as setting up a project on sourceforge even if it may seem to be that way from the user's perspective. I have been through the process of open sourcing projects several times over the last 10 years, and did it again a few weeks ago with the GeoPrisma launch. I think we are getting better at it as we gain experience, and can confirm that those packaging costs and planning requirements are real and need to be taken into account for a successful project launch. Another aspect to consider that I don't think was mentioned is to balance the pros and cons of open sourcing and not doing it on your own business and on the project/product itself. Based on Daniel's response, a thought occurred to me -- my inquiry in this thread might be seen as an "attack" on the concept of packaging costs. I want to put this disclaimer forward, even though I thought I had made my intentions clear in my first email -- I am not at all antagonistic or in any way attacking the concept of packaging costs in general or LISASoft in particular. I am merely curious. I had never heard of packaging costs until this thread, so obviously, my scholarship of open source, particularly its economics and motivation, has been seriously lacking, and I need to correct it. And, what better way to do that than to ask the person who is asking for packaging costs in the first place. 1. How much are we talking about here? 2. Of course, any price is worth it if someone is willing to pay it, but how to determine if the amount being asked in #1 above is commensurate with the value of the product being considered, and is in line with the value of similar products? 3. If no one comes up with the packaging costs, would you not put it into open source, or would you still put it, but just "dump the code into sourceforge" and let Darwin take care of it? 4. If you do put it in open source without any packaging costs being paid to you, would you be losing out on any particular revenue other than the time spent to put it into open source? Daniel -- Daniel Morissette http://www.mapgears.com/ -- Cameron Shorter Geospatial Systems Architect Tel: +61 (0)2 8570 5050 Mob: +61 (0)419 142 254 Think Glob
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open Location Services
If you have big commercial customers I'd approach them. If they're heavily invested in your software then they could see the value potentially. I understand what you're saying tho. Most of the organically-grown projects are those that started as open source and don't compare well to closed2open conversions. On 11/3/09, Cameron Shorter wrote: > Puneet, > I don't have a specific answer for "How Much LISAsoft's OpenLS code > costs to Open Source" yet, I'd need to do the analysis, and so I'll talk > in general terms, based on my experience with other projects. > > 1. For LISAsoft, "Just dumping code into Sourceforge" is usually not an > option. Our reputation is based upon our understanding of Open Source > and producing quality software, and it would be detrimental to our > image, and hence our future job prospects to do a poor job. > > 2. For simple projects, Open Sourcing can easily at least a few weeks, > to put processes and web sites in place. But the bigger cost is growing > and supporting the community, maybe one person day per week, for the > rest of the year. I heard that Autodesk decided to provide a major > re-write of their MapGuide Open Source software before Open Sourcing, > which would likely have cost them man months, probably man years. > > 3. Yes, LISAsoft will miss out on opportunity costs because we derive > commercial advantage by owning an OpenLS codebase. > > At the end of the day, our decision will be financial. Can we make more > money by Open Sourcing or not. At LISAsoft we support both Open and > Closed source business models, depending on which makes better business > sense. > > P Kishor wrote: >> On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 8:49 AM, Daniel Morissette >> wrote: >> >>> P Kishor wrote: >>> On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 3:47 AM, Cameron Shorter wrote: > P Kishor wrote: > >> On Sun, Nov 1, 2009 at 1:26 PM, Cameron Shorter >> wrote: >> >> >>> David, >>> LISAsoft has a java implementation of OpenLS which we would like to >>> Open >>> Source if we can find a sponsor to cover our packaging costs. >>> >>> >> What kind of costs are "packaging costs," and what do they amount to >> generally, and for OpenLS, more specifically? >> >> > P Kishor, > As you are probably aware, just dumping code into sourceforge is not an > effective way to start a successful Open Source project. > There needs to be suitable technical documentation, development > processes > documentation, web pages set up, issue trackers put in place, access > writes > granted to developers, and then have at least one champion sit on email > lists supporting new users. > That is what I consider "packaging costs". > The above makes sense, but honestly, I had never heard of this until now, and I have been tinkering with open source for almost a decade now. Most open source projects seemed organic to me. Someone had an itch, they scratched it, they put it out, and the project either gathered traction, or it died. Seems like my scholarship of open source has been lacking in this aspect hugely. >>> Hi Puneet, >>> >>> I have to run now, so I don't have time for a long answer, but I just >>> wanted >>> to add that Cameron is right... unfortunately it's not as simple as >>> setting >>> up a project on sourceforge even if it may seem to be that way from the >>> user's perspective. >>> >>> I have been through the process of open sourcing projects several times >>> over >>> the last 10 years, and did it again a few weeks ago with the GeoPrisma >>> launch. I think we are getting better at it as we gain experience, and >>> can >>> confirm that those packaging costs and planning requirements are real and >>> need to be taken into account for a successful project launch. Another >>> aspect to consider that I don't think was mentioned is to balance the >>> pros >>> and cons of open sourcing and not doing it on your own business and on >>> the >>> project/product itself. >>> >>> >> >> Based on Daniel's response, a thought occurred to me -- my inquiry in >> this thread might be seen as an "attack" on the concept of packaging >> costs. I want to put this disclaimer forward, even though I thought I >> had made my intentions clear in my first email -- I am not at all >> antagonistic or in any way attacking the concept of packaging costs in >> general or LISASoft in particular. I am merely curious. I had never >> heard of packaging costs until this thread, so obviously, my >> scholarship of open source, particularly its economics and motivation, >> has been seriously lacking, and I need to correct it. And, what better >> way to do that than to ask the person who is asking for packaging >> costs in the first place. >> >> 1. How much are we talking about here? >> >> 2. Of course, any price is worth it if someone is willing to pay it, >> but how to determine if the amount being asked in #1 above is >
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open Location Services
On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 1:57 PM, Cameron Shorter wrote: > Puneet, > I don't have a specific answer for "How Much LISAsoft's OpenLS code costs to > Open Source" yet, I'd need to do the analysis, and so I'll talk in general > terms, based on my experience with other projects. > Fair enough. If and when you do finish your analysis, I would be very interested in knowing the cost of OpenLS code. Knowing how much is something is the first step in determining whether or not it is worth it to me, so I would like to know what its "sale" price is. > 1. For LISAsoft, "Just dumping code into Sourceforge" is usually not an > option. Our reputation is based upon our understanding of Open Source and > producing quality software, and it would be detrimental to our image, and > hence our future job prospects to do a poor job. > Very understandable. Of course, the above implies that the code is not ready to be put (replacing the value laden term "dumped" with the more benign "put") into Soureforge. I am assuming you have already paying customers for it though (more on that below), so they have probably already put a price on it, and considered it of worthy quality. > 2. For simple projects, Open Sourcing can easily at least a few weeks, to > put processes and web sites in place. But the bigger cost is growing and > supporting the community, maybe one person day per week, for the rest of the > year. I heard that Autodesk decided to provide a major re-write of their > MapGuide Open Source software before Open Sourcing, which would likely have > cost them man months, probably man years. > What if you had a website? Hypothetically speaking, what if OSGeo said that they would provide the server and repo and mailing list, etc.? Wouldn't that take off some of the "packaging" cost? > 3. Yes, LISAsoft will miss out on opportunity costs because we derive > commercial advantage by owning an OpenLS codebase. Ahhh! So, there is a perceived advantage to keeping the source closed, which kinda works counter to the perceived advantage of opening up the source -- the general assumption is that, if successful, open sourcing will bring more attention, rapid development and improvement, more bugs being flushed out, more awareness, hence, possibly, more customers, yadda yadda. > > At the end of the day, our decision will be financial. Can we make more > money by Open Sourcing or not. At LISAsoft we support both Open and Closed > source business models, depending on which makes better business sense. > No doubt. I find it fascinating that closed source business models make sense in a primarily open source world (whereby "world," I mean the OSGeo world). I just presumed that as far as source code was concerned, the primary mindset and approach of everyone would be that open was better than closed. Seems like there are, possibly many, cases where this is not so. There are a couple of things I have learned from this thread -- 1. "Internal," somewhat mature, projects, owned by a commercial entity, that are currently closed source throw up a lot more thinking before they can be made open source; 2. This is something I just had never thought about. I need to study this a lot more, in greater detail and breadth. Many thanks Cameron, for your patience and answers. > P Kishor wrote: >> >> On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 8:49 AM, Daniel Morissette >> wrote: >> >>> >>> P Kishor wrote: >>> On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 3:47 AM, Cameron Shorter wrote: > > P Kishor wrote: > >> >> On Sun, Nov 1, 2009 at 1:26 PM, Cameron Shorter >> wrote: >> >> >>> >>> David, >>> LISAsoft has a java implementation of OpenLS which we would like to >>> Open >>> Source if we can find a sponsor to cover our packaging costs. >>> >>> >> >> What kind of costs are "packaging costs," and what do they amount to >> generally, and for OpenLS, more specifically? >> >> > > P Kishor, > As you are probably aware, just dumping code into sourceforge is not an > effective way to start a successful Open Source project. > There needs to be suitable technical documentation, development > processes > documentation, web pages set up, issue trackers put in place, access > writes > granted to developers, and then have at least one champion sit on email > lists supporting new users. > That is what I consider "packaging costs". > The above makes sense, but honestly, I had never heard of this until now, and I have been tinkering with open source for almost a decade now. Most open source projects seemed organic to me. Someone had an itch, they scratched it, they put it out, and the project either gathered traction, or it died. Seems like my scholarship of open source has been lacking in this aspect hugely. >>> >>> Hi Puneet, >>> >>> I have to run now, so I don't have time for a long answer, but I just >>> wanted
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open Location Services
Hi there, > That said, the main theme of my enquiry still remains -- I > had never heard of "packaging" costs until now, and am > curious about quantifying them. The term «packaging cost» is not really representative of the actual work it includes. We are in fact speaking of code and project quality. In that sense, "packaging cost" are pareto's principle's 20% of a project. These 20% represent the work on the project which is never done for internal projects, as it takes a lot of time compared to what it's paying off. This may includes : - technical documentation (as the project is internally developed, knowledge is available by asking individuals) - end user documentation (sell training and expertise instead of writing non-paid end user documentation) - code cleaning (while it's closed and intern, who cares about clean code ?) - code documentation (ask your colleague if you want to know what «UGLY HACK» really means...) - annoying little bug fixing (every team developer knows the non-documented workaround) - setting up a dev environment (svn, ftp & stuff, managing rights, takes more effort for intern needs than an open dev env) - setting up a project home website with basic information (never done for intern project if the product is not directly sold) - setting up a support infrastructure and team (mailing list, specific persons in charge... done informally when intern) - ... If we were in an ideal world, all of this would be done for long even for small internal project. But in our real world, those points are often abandoned along the road of good intentions. It really depends on your internal project quality management. I've seen project with all the above done and well done, and other where none of it ever existed. Successful Open Source projects however strongly need those points to be sure to gather a community of users, developers, and be able to reach a stable point where the project live by itself without perfusion. As to answer your specific questions : > Imagine that I am a potential sponsor. You have developed software> for your own company. A few users are expressing interest in > that software. You write to the user list that you will put > that software into open source were your "packaging" costs > met. The following questions -- > > 1. How much are we talking about here? > To stay with pareto's principle, i'd say around 20% of the initial project's price. It depends on the current quality of the code and project management type and infrastructur though. The closer it is from the «opensource way» of doing thing, the less these cost will be. > 3. If no one comes up with the packaging costs, would you not > put it into open source, or would you still put it, but just > "dump the code into sourceforge" and let Darwin take care of it? As far as a (my one at least) company is concerned, the idea is generally «open source quality software or don't», as bad code is bad image for the company. That said, there may sometimes be legal reason leading to open sourcing code without «packaging» it at all. > 4. If you do put it in open source without any packaging > costs being paid to you, would you be losing out on any > particular revenue other than the time spent to put it into > open source? Time spent to put it into open source is time not spent on other profit-making project. Then other revenue can be lost due to the opensourcing itself of the project, but this is another subject. As to answer to miles about FLOSS project typology, I fully agree with him. There also is the kind of project written by an individual on its spare time, with high-standard quality code and infrastructures, which evolves, grows and turns into a successful big opensource project. Well, I'm still looking for examples, but I'm sure we can find some :) vincent ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open Location Services
On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 8:49 AM, Daniel Morissette wrote: > P Kishor wrote: >> >> On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 3:47 AM, Cameron Shorter >> wrote: >>> >>> P Kishor wrote: On Sun, Nov 1, 2009 at 1:26 PM, Cameron Shorter wrote: > David, > LISAsoft has a java implementation of OpenLS which we would like to > Open > Source if we can find a sponsor to cover our packaging costs. > What kind of costs are "packaging costs," and what do they amount to generally, and for OpenLS, more specifically? >>> P Kishor, >>> As you are probably aware, just dumping code into sourceforge is not an >>> effective way to start a successful Open Source project. >>> There needs to be suitable technical documentation, development >>> processes >>> documentation, web pages set up, issue trackers put in place, access >>> writes >>> granted to developers, and then have at least one champion sit on email >>> lists supporting new users. >>> That is what I consider "packaging costs". >> >> The above makes sense, but honestly, I had never heard of this until >> now, and I have been tinkering with open source for almost a decade >> now. Most open source projects seemed organic to me. Someone had an >> itch, they scratched it, they put it out, and the project either >> gathered traction, or it died. Seems like my scholarship of open >> source has been lacking in this aspect hugely. >> > > Hi Puneet, > > I have to run now, so I don't have time for a long answer, but I just wanted > to add that Cameron is right... unfortunately it's not as simple as setting > up a project on sourceforge even if it may seem to be that way from the > user's perspective. > > I have been through the process of open sourcing projects several times over > the last 10 years, and did it again a few weeks ago with the GeoPrisma > launch. I think we are getting better at it as we gain experience, and can > confirm that those packaging costs and planning requirements are real and > need to be taken into account for a successful project launch. Another > aspect to consider that I don't think was mentioned is to balance the pros > and cons of open sourcing and not doing it on your own business and on the > project/product itself. > Based on Daniel's response, a thought occurred to me -- my inquiry in this thread might be seen as an "attack" on the concept of packaging costs. I want to put this disclaimer forward, even though I thought I had made my intentions clear in my first email -- I am not at all antagonistic or in any way attacking the concept of packaging costs in general or LISASoft in particular. I am merely curious. I had never heard of packaging costs until this thread, so obviously, my scholarship of open source, particularly its economics and motivation, has been seriously lacking, and I need to correct it. And, what better way to do that than to ask the person who is asking for packaging costs in the first place. 1. How much are we talking about here? 2. Of course, any price is worth it if someone is willing to pay it, but how to determine if the amount being asked in #1 above is commensurate with the value of the product being considered, and is in line with the value of similar products? 3. If no one comes up with the packaging costs, would you not put it into open source, or would you still put it, but just "dump the code into sourceforge" and let Darwin take care of it? 4. If you do put it in open source without any packaging costs being paid to you, would you be losing out on any particular revenue other than the time spent to put it into open source? > Daniel > -- > Daniel Morissette > http://www.mapgears.com/ -- Puneet Kishor http://www.punkish.org Carbon Model http://carbonmodel.org Charter Member, Open Source Geospatial Foundation http://www.osgeo.org Science Commons Fellow, http://sciencecommons.org/about/whoweare/kishor Nelson Institute, UW-Madison http://www.nelson.wisc.edu --- Assertions are politics; backing up assertions with evidence is science === Sent from Madison, Wisconsin, United States ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open Location Services
P Kishor wrote: On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 3:47 AM, Cameron Shorter wrote: P Kishor wrote: On Sun, Nov 1, 2009 at 1:26 PM, Cameron Shorter wrote: David, LISAsoft has a java implementation of OpenLS which we would like to Open Source if we can find a sponsor to cover our packaging costs. What kind of costs are "packaging costs," and what do they amount to generally, and for OpenLS, more specifically? P Kishor, As you are probably aware, just dumping code into sourceforge is not an effective way to start a successful Open Source project. There needs to be suitable technical documentation, development processes documentation, web pages set up, issue trackers put in place, access writes granted to developers, and then have at least one champion sit on email lists supporting new users. That is what I consider "packaging costs". The above makes sense, but honestly, I had never heard of this until now, and I have been tinkering with open source for almost a decade now. Most open source projects seemed organic to me. Someone had an itch, they scratched it, they put it out, and the project either gathered traction, or it died. Seems like my scholarship of open source has been lacking in this aspect hugely. Hi Puneet, I have to run now, so I don't have time for a long answer, but I just wanted to add that Cameron is right... unfortunately it's not as simple as setting up a project on sourceforge even if it may seem to be that way from the user's perspective. I have been through the process of open sourcing projects several times over the last 10 years, and did it again a few weeks ago with the GeoPrisma launch. I think we are getting better at it as we gain experience, and can confirm that those packaging costs and planning requirements are real and need to be taken into account for a successful project launch. Another aspect to consider that I don't think was mentioned is to balance the pros and cons of open sourcing and not doing it on your own business and on the project/product itself. Daniel -- Daniel Morissette http://www.mapgears.com/ ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open Location Services
On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 8:38 AM, Miles Fidelman
wrote:
> P Kishor wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 3:47 AM, Cameron Shorter
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> As you are probably aware, just dumping code into sourceforge is not an
>>> effective way to start a successful Open Source project.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> The above makes sense, but honestly, I had never heard of this until
>> now, and I have been tinkering with open source for almost a decade
>> now. Most open source projects seemed organic to me. Someone had an
>> itch, they scratched it, they put it out, and the project either
>> gathered traction, or it died. Seems like my scholarship of open
>> source has been lacking in this aspect hugely.
>>
>
> Actually, the history of successful open source projects (long-lived, widely
> adopted, well supported by a broad community) is very different than "having
> an itch to scratch."
>
Well said. I apologize for unintentionally making it seem that I was
conflating "itch to scratch" with lack of funds. Not so. Larry Wall
was gainfully employed when he developed Perl and released it into the
wilds. That is well documented. And, as you note below, variations on
this model abound. Our own Steve Lime, bless his heart, was and is
gainfully employed when he developed and continues to develop
MapServer. The nice folks at DM Solutions and Refractions built a
successful business around open source, releasing and benefitting from
their largesse.
That said, the main theme of my enquiry still remains -- I had never
heard of "packaging" costs until now, and am curious about quantifying
them.
Imagine that I am a potential sponsor. You have developed for your own company. A few users are expressing interest in
that software. You write to the user list that you will put that
software into open source were your "packaging" costs met. The
following questions --
1. How much are we talking about here?
2. Of course, any price is worth it if someone is willing to pay it,
but how to determine if the amount being asked in #1 above is
commensurate with the value of the product being considered, and is in
line with the value of similar products?
3. If no one comes up with the packaging costs, would you not put it
into open source, or would you still put it, but just "dump the code
into sourceforge" and let Darwin take care of it?
4. If you do put it in open source without any packaging costs being
paid to you, would you be losing out on any particular revenue other
than the time spent to put it into open source?
> I've seen several major development paths for successful projects:
>
> 1. Funded research project that gets widely adopted. Open sourced as a way
> to maintain availability and support. Classic example: Apache (started as
> the NCSA web daemon).
>
> 2. Variant of the above: Project that starts as a research project ends up
> as a hybrid open-source/commercial enterprise. Classic examples: Sendmail,
> PostgreSQL.
>
> 3. Internally funded project - by a university or corporate team - open
> sourced as a way to reduce support costs and/or widen adoption. Generally
> retains some ties to originators. Examples: Sympa (mailing list manager
> funded by a consortium of French universities), Erlang, Zope.
>
> 4. The jury is still out on the various projects that have been developed
> for purely commercial reasons, with an open source ("community") version
> released as both a way to broaden the market and to reduce
> development/support costs by leveraging outside contributors (e.g.,
> OpenSolaris, Aptana Studio, ...). The virtualization space seems to be a
> place where the uncertainties associated with this model are playing out
> (e.g., would you stake your business on Xen or VirtualBox?).
>
> Not sure how I'd characterize the various BSD unix varients, and Linux is a
> clear outlier - that may well be as close to an "itch to scratch" that
> succeeded as there is.
>
> What these all have in common is that:
>
> i. somebody and/or some organization had a serious internal reason for
> developing a piece of software, and in almost all cases had a source of
> financial support for the work
>
> ii. there are serious "business" reasons for open sourcing the code -
> broadening a user base, reducing development and support costs, etc. - and
> serious attention was/is paid to organization and management issues
>
>
> Miles Fidelman
>
> --
> Miles R. Fidelman, Director of Government Programs
> Traverse Technologies 145 Tremont Street, 3rd Floor
> Boston, MA 02111
> mfidel...@traversetechnologies.com
> 857-362-8314
> www.traversetechnologies.com
>
> ___
> Discuss mailing list
> Discuss@lists.osgeo.org
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>
--
Puneet Kishor http://www.punkish.org
Carbon Model http://carbonmodel.org
Charter Member, Open Source Geospatial Foundation http://www.osgeo.org
Science Commons Fellow, http://sciencecommons.org/about/whoweare/kishor
Nelson Institute, UW-Ma
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open Location Services
P Kishor wrote:
On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 3:47 AM, Cameron Shorter
wrote:
As you are probably aware, just dumping code into sourceforge is not an
effective way to start a successful Open Source project.
The above makes sense, but honestly, I had never heard of this until
now, and I have been tinkering with open source for almost a decade
now. Most open source projects seemed organic to me. Someone had an
itch, they scratched it, they put it out, and the project either
gathered traction, or it died. Seems like my scholarship of open
source has been lacking in this aspect hugely.
Actually, the history of successful open source projects (long-lived,
widely adopted, well supported by a broad community) is very different
than "having an itch to scratch."
I've seen several major development paths for successful projects:
1. Funded research project that gets widely adopted. Open sourced as a
way to maintain availability and support. Classic example: Apache
(started as the NCSA web daemon).
2. Variant of the above: Project that starts as a research project ends
up as a hybrid open-source/commercial enterprise. Classic examples:
Sendmail, PostgreSQL.
3. Internally funded project - by a university or corporate team - open
sourced as a way to reduce support costs and/or widen adoption.
Generally retains some ties to originators. Examples: Sympa (mailing
list manager funded by a consortium of French universities), Erlang, Zope.
4. The jury is still out on the various projects that have been
developed for purely commercial reasons, with an open source
("community") version released as both a way to broaden the market and
to reduce development/support costs by leveraging outside contributors
(e.g., OpenSolaris, Aptana Studio, ...). The virtualization space
seems to be a place where the uncertainties associated with this model
are playing out (e.g., would you stake your business on Xen or VirtualBox?).
Not sure how I'd characterize the various BSD unix varients, and Linux
is a clear outlier - that may well be as close to an "itch to scratch"
that succeeded as there is.
What these all have in common is that:
i. somebody and/or some organization had a serious internal reason for
developing a piece of software, and in almost all cases had a source of
financial support for the work
ii. there are serious "business" reasons for open sourcing the code -
broadening a user base, reducing development and support costs, etc. -
and serious attention was/is paid to organization and management issues
Miles Fidelman
--
Miles R. Fidelman, Director of Government Programs
Traverse Technologies
145 Tremont Street, 3rd Floor
Boston, MA 02111
mfidel...@traversetechnologies.com
857-362-8314
www.traversetechnologies.com
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open Location Services
On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 3:47 AM, Cameron Shorter wrote: > P Kishor wrote: >> >> On Sun, Nov 1, 2009 at 1:26 PM, Cameron Shorter >> wrote: >> >>> >>> David, >>> LISAsoft has a java implementation of OpenLS which we would like to Open >>> Source if we can find a sponsor to cover our packaging costs. >>> >> >> What kind of costs are "packaging costs," and what do they amount to >> generally, and for OpenLS, more specifically? >> > > P Kishor, > As you are probably aware, just dumping code into sourceforge is not an > effective way to start a successful Open Source project. > There needs to be suitable technical documentation, development processes > documentation, web pages set up, issue trackers put in place, access writes > granted to developers, and then have at least one champion sit on email > lists supporting new users. > That is what I consider "packaging costs". The above makes sense, but honestly, I had never heard of this until now, and I have been tinkering with open source for almost a decade now. Most open source projects seemed organic to me. Someone had an itch, they scratched it, they put it out, and the project either gathered traction, or it died. Seems like my scholarship of open source has been lacking in this aspect hugely. I wonder if I can find out the "packaging costs" of other projects, for example, what was the packaging cost for MapServer, or GeoServer, or OpenLayers, or Perl/Python, etc. Is this routine practice, or is this a consideration only when a private company wants to put its code into open source? If the packaging costs are a consideration in the latter case, does anyone know if there were packaging costs involved when Autodesk converted MapGuide to open source? If yes, how much were they? If Autodesk didn't get paid for it, but instead, did a writedown of some sort on their balance sheet, I wonder if I could be privy to that information? Another question -- if you don't put the code into open source, are you somehow recouping this cost? In other words, does putting the code into open source have any opportunity costs? Asked another way, if you did just "dump the code into sourceforge," besides the potentially legitimate worry that the project might just die, would you incur any other cost? > > If there is a serious desire, and potential sponsor for this functionality, > then I can talk with the team and work out the costs of Open Sourcing. (I'll > also need to put together a business case to our management for the value we > gain from Open Sourcing over Closed Source for this product), but I'll take > that on separately. > > If you have a potential sponsor for this activity, please let me know, and > we can look into it further. > No, I don't have any sponsor. I am a rather indigent academic/developer/activist with barely funds to keep myself afloat. I am, however, still very curious about the magnitude of these "packaging" costs. What are we talking about here? A few hundred, a few thousand, a few tens of thousands, say, Euros (considering even Kanye West doesn't want greenbacks anymore). You say above, "we can look into it further." Does that imply that you haven't yet calculated these packaging costs, but have a sense that they might be substantial? At the very least, because of this thread, I have now been made aware of a potential aspect of open source about which I had absolutely no idea until now. > -- > Cameron Shorter > Geospatial Systems Architect > Tel: +61 (0)2 8570 5050 > Mob: +61 (0)419 142 254 > > Think Globally, Fix Locally > Geospatial Solutions enhanced with Open Standards and Open Source > http://www.lisasoft.com > > -- Puneet Kishor http://www.punkish.org Carbon Model http://carbonmodel.org Charter Member, Open Source Geospatial Foundation http://www.osgeo.org Science Commons Fellow, http://sciencecommons.org/about/whoweare/kishor Nelson Institute, UW-Madison http://www.nelson.wisc.edu --- Assertions are politics; backing up assertions with evidence is science === Sent from Madison, Wisconsin, United States ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open Location Services
P Kishor wrote: On Sun, Nov 1, 2009 at 1:26 PM, Cameron Shorter wrote: David, LISAsoft has a java implementation of OpenLS which we would like to Open Source if we can find a sponsor to cover our packaging costs. What kind of costs are "packaging costs," and what do they amount to generally, and for OpenLS, more specifically? P Kishor, As you are probably aware, just dumping code into sourceforge is not an effective way to start a successful Open Source project. There needs to be suitable technical documentation, development processes documentation, web pages set up, issue trackers put in place, access writes granted to developers, and then have at least one champion sit on email lists supporting new users. That is what I consider "packaging costs". If there is a serious desire, and potential sponsor for this functionality, then I can talk with the team and work out the costs of Open Sourcing. (I'll also need to put together a business case to our management for the value we gain from Open Sourcing over Closed Source for this product), but I'll take that on separately. If you have a potential sponsor for this activity, please let me know, and we can look into it further. -- Cameron Shorter Geospatial Systems Architect Tel: +61 (0)2 8570 5050 Mob: +61 (0)419 142 254 Think Globally, Fix Locally Geospatial Solutions enhanced with Open Standards and Open Source http://www.lisasoft.com ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open Location Services
Indeed I talked to LISAsoft a couple years ago about adding OpenLS to GeoTools; we got stuck on GeoAPI interfaces as I remember. Cameron if LISAsoft is still interested we have reduced the amount of effort required to take part in GeoTools with a policy change introducing "unsupported" modules. With respect to sponsoring packaging costs, for inclusion as a supported module, the library asks for documentation, (c) assignment to osgeo, a set level of test case coverage and so on. Jody On 02/11/2009, at 6:26 AM, Cameron Shorter wrote: David, LISAsoft has a java implementation of OpenLS which we would like to Open Source if we can find a sponsor to cover our packaging costs. Stephen Woodbridge wrote: http://www.openrouteservice.org/ This is the only one that I know about. But last time I looked I did not see a link to download source code. -Steve Sampson, David wrote: I am looking for an open source project that has implemented OpenLS specification from OGC. I know their are some groups working on this * PAGC (on their road map) * OpenRouter (any code yet?) * OpenGeocoder (any code yet?) I am looking to see if anyone has this OUT OF THE BOX and ready to download and install. If there are any projects that are close I wouldn't mind hearing when the proposed release date is or what is required to make OpenLS happen with an open source solution. My understanding is that OSGEO is working towards refrence implementations of OGC specs (http://www.opengeospatial.org/pressroom/pressreleases/944 ) perhaps OpenLS has a reference implementation? Cheers ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss -- Cameron Shorter Geospatial Systems Architect Tel: +61 (0)2 8570 5050 Mob: +61 (0)419 142 254 Think Globally, Fix Locally Geospatial Solutions enhanced with Open Standards and Open Source http://www.lisasoft.com ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open Location Services
On Sun, Nov 1, 2009 at 1:26 PM, Cameron Shorter wrote: > David, > LISAsoft has a java implementation of OpenLS which we would like to Open > Source if we can find a sponsor to cover our packaging costs. What kind of costs are "packaging costs," and what do they amount to generally, and for OpenLS, more specifically? > > Stephen Woodbridge wrote: >> >> http://www.openrouteservice.org/ >> >> This is the only one that I know about. But last time I looked I did not >> see a link to download source code. >> >> -Steve >> >> Sampson, David wrote: >>> >>> I am looking for an open source project that has implemented OpenLS >>> specification from OGC. >>> I know their are some groups working on this >>> * PAGC (on their road map) >>> * OpenRouter (any code yet?) >>> * OpenGeocoder (any code yet?) >>> I am looking to see if anyone has this OUT OF THE BOX and ready to >>> download and install. >>> If there are any projects that are close I wouldn't mind hearing when >>> the proposed release date is or what is required to make OpenLS happen with >>> an open source solution. >>> My understanding is that OSGEO is working towards refrence >>> implementations of OGC specs >>> (http://www.opengeospatial.org/pressroom/pressreleases/944) perhaps OpenLS >>> has a reference implementation? >>> Cheers >>> >>> >>> >>> > > -- > Cameron Shorter > Geospatial Systems Architect > Tel: +61 (0)2 8570 5050 > Mob: +61 (0)419 142 254 > > Think Globally, Fix Locally > Geospatial Solutions enhanced with Open Standards and Open Source > http://www.lisasoft.com > > ___ > Discuss mailing list > Discuss@lists.osgeo.org > http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss > -- Puneet Kishor http://www.punkish.org Carbon Model http://carbonmodel.org Charter Member, Open Source Geospatial Foundation http://www.osgeo.org Science Commons Fellow, http://sciencecommons.org/about/whoweare/kishor Nelson Institute, UW-Madison http://www.nelson.wisc.edu --- Assertions are politics; backing up assertions with evidence is science === ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open Location Services
David, LISAsoft has a java implementation of OpenLS which we would like to Open Source if we can find a sponsor to cover our packaging costs. Stephen Woodbridge wrote: http://www.openrouteservice.org/ This is the only one that I know about. But last time I looked I did not see a link to download source code. -Steve Sampson, David wrote: I am looking for an open source project that has implemented OpenLS specification from OGC. I know their are some groups working on this * PAGC (on their road map) * OpenRouter (any code yet?) * OpenGeocoder (any code yet?) I am looking to see if anyone has this OUT OF THE BOX and ready to download and install. If there are any projects that are close I wouldn't mind hearing when the proposed release date is or what is required to make OpenLS happen with an open source solution. My understanding is that OSGEO is working towards refrence implementations of OGC specs (http://www.opengeospatial.org/pressroom/pressreleases/944) perhaps OpenLS has a reference implementation? Cheers ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss -- Cameron Shorter Geospatial Systems Architect Tel: +61 (0)2 8570 5050 Mob: +61 (0)419 142 254 Think Globally, Fix Locally Geospatial Solutions enhanced with Open Standards and Open Source http://www.lisasoft.com ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open Location Services
http://www.openrouteservice.org/ This is the only one that I know about. But last time I looked I did not see a link to download source code. -Steve Sampson, David wrote: I am looking for an open source project that has implemented OpenLS specification from OGC. I know their are some groups working on this * PAGC (on their road map) * OpenRouter (any code yet?) * OpenGeocoder (any code yet?) I am looking to see if anyone has this OUT OF THE BOX and ready to download and install. If there are any projects that are close I wouldn't mind hearing when the proposed release date is or what is required to make OpenLS happen with an open source solution. My understanding is that OSGEO is working towards refrence implementations of OGC specs (http://www.opengeospatial.org/pressroom/pressreleases/944) perhaps OpenLS has a reference implementation? Cheers ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open Location Services
OpenLBS has been working for a long time now but I'm not sure of the current status. Their website is down, but the source code is available at http://code.google.com/p/openlbs/ Craig From: discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org [mailto:discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org] On Behalf Of Sampson, David Sent: Thursday, October 29, 2009 7:15 AM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open Location Services I am looking for an open source project that has implemented OpenLS specification from OGC. I know their are some groups working on this * PAGC (on their road map) * OpenRouter (any code yet?) * OpenGeocoder (any code yet?) I am looking to see if anyone has this OUT OF THE BOX and ready to download and install. If there are any projects that are close I wouldn't mind hearing when the proposed release date is or what is required to make OpenLS happen with an open source solution. My understanding is that OSGEO is working towards refrence implementations of OGC specs (http://www.opengeospatial.org/pressroom/pressreleases/944) perhaps OpenLS has a reference implementation? Cheers No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.698 / Virus Database: 270.14.37/2466 - Release Date: 10/29/09 00:38:00 ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
[OSGeo-Discuss] Open Location Services
I am looking for an open source project that has implemented OpenLS specification from OGC. I know their are some groups working on this * PAGC (on their road map) * OpenRouter (any code yet?) * OpenGeocoder (any code yet?) I am looking to see if anyone has this OUT OF THE BOX and ready to download and install. If there are any projects that are close I wouldn't mind hearing when the proposed release date is or what is required to make OpenLS happen with an open source solution. My understanding is that OSGEO is working towards refrence implementations of OGC specs (http://www.opengeospatial.org/pressroom/pressreleases/944) perhaps OpenLS has a reference implementation? Cheers ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
