Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Re: Comparison between MapServer/OpenLayers and ESRI ArcIMS
On May 30, 2009, at 3:38 PM, Randy George rkgeo...@cadmaps.com wrote: Cloud options are looking interesting. http://aws.amazon.com/ec2/ Windows, Linux, Solaris options I imagine ESRI license entanglement with virtual servers could be a problem. But no problem at all with Open Source GIS stacks. No license to get tangled with load balancing and auto scaling where servers come and go as needed. Mostly I've seen small business interest since they tend to take overhead costs more seriously. It might be useful to include a Cloud based server solution addendum, because that would be less optimal for an ESRI vendor and could look good compared to in-house hardware. We found it much better to own our entire solution (GeoIQ) due to this. It's built either with our own pieces, or open-source pieces - so we can deploy it to cloud, appliances, whatever without concern for ToU, licensing, etc. It's definitely a huge boon for us as a 'business'. Unfortunately, medium and large organizations seem to have budget allocations already in place for the big ticket approach. But then in this economy even that could be changing. Yes, that is a questionably valid (and even provably invalid) assumption. Big ticket items kick in all kinds of departmental, IT team, budgetary, sustainability, etc. questions. They're looking for easy entry items that maybe they can even slip into their discretionary budgets without invoking too much beauracracy. Andrew ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Re: Comparison between MapServer/OpenLayers and ESRI ArcIMS
At Camptocamp, we have deployed several production instances of web mapping applications on Amazon. For example, Map veloland ( http://map.veloland.ch/?lang=en) a 100k+ unique visitors/day is hosted this way and use several OS software (Puppet, HAproxy, MapServer, TileCache, Pylons, MapFish, GeoExt, OpenLayers, ExtJS and others). 0$ investment, handle of slashdot effect or scalabality, flexibility are big advantages of Amazon cloud computing (I'm not an Amazon sales representative, only an happy user ;-). Cédric On Sun, May 31, 2009 at 2:45 PM, Andrew Turner ajtur...@highearthorbit.comwrote: On May 30, 2009, at 3:38 PM, Randy George rkgeo...@cadmaps.com wrote: Cloud options are looking interesting. http://aws.amazon.com/ec2/ Windows, Linux, Solaris options I imagine ESRI license entanglement with virtual servers could be a problem. But no problem at all with Open Source GIS stacks. No license to get tangled with load balancing and auto scaling where servers come and go as needed. Mostly I've seen small business interest since they tend to take overhead costs more seriously. It might be useful to include a Cloud based server solution addendum, because that would be less optimal for an ESRI vendor and could look good compared to in-house hardware. We found it much better to own our entire solution (GeoIQ) due to this. It's built either with our own pieces, or open-source pieces - so we can deploy it to cloud, appliances, whatever without concern for ToU, licensing, etc. It's definitely a huge boon for us as a 'business'. Unfortunately, medium and large organizations seem to have budget allocations already in place for the big ticket approach. But then in this economy even that could be changing. Yes, that is a questionably valid (and even provably invalid) assumption. Big ticket items kick in all kinds of departmental, IT team, budgetary, sustainability, etc. questions. They're looking for easy entry items that maybe they can even slip into their discretionary budgets without invoking too much beauracracy. Andrew ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss -- CTO Geospatial Camptocamp SA Cédric Moullet PSE A CH-1015 Lausanne www.camptocamp.com / www.mapfish.org / twitter.com/cedricmoullet / mapfishblog.blogspot.com/ +41 79 759 69 83 (mobile) +41 21 619 10 21 (direct) +41 21 619 10 10 (centrale) +41 21 619 10 00 (fax) ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Re: Comparison between MapServer/OpenLayers and ESRI ArcIMS
One thing to consider using a cloud approach with Amazon is the license agreement concerning your data. Under the Patriot Act in the US all data hosted in the US could be made available to the US government. Not all corporations are ready to live with that. Richard 2009/5/30 Randy George rkgeo...@cadmaps.com Cloud options are looking interesting. http://aws.amazon.com/ec2/ Windows, Linux, Solaris options I imagine ESRI license entanglement with virtual servers could be a problem. But no problem at all with Open Source GIS stacks. No license to get tangled with load balancing and auto scaling where servers come and go as needed. Mostly I've seen small business interest since they tend to take overhead costs more seriously. It might be useful to include a Cloud based server solution addendum, because that would be less optimal for an ESRI vendor and could look good compared to in-house hardware. Unfortunately, medium and large organizations seem to have budget allocations already in place for the big ticket approach. But then in this economy even that could be changing. AWS now includes Load Balancing and Auto Scaling options as well as S3 Backup, multiple offsite elastic block store duplication, edge cache, and elastic IP. http://aws.amazon.com/about-aws/whats-new/2009/05/17/monitoring-auto-scaling-elastic-load-balancing/ And for the real bleeding edge http://aws.amazon.com/elasticmapreduce/ (Not a selling point to small, medium, or large organizations, unless academically oriented :-) rkgeorge -Original Message- From: discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org [mailto: discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org] On Behalf Of Jason Birch Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 5:49 PM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Re: Comparision between MapServer/OpenLayers and ESRI ArcIMS I think that it's generally less fear of the unknown or job security than it is the cost of adding complexity to what is often an already over-extended support load. In many cases it just makes sense to spend $1000 for a server OS that doesn't require additional training, is easy to get qualified techs for, and just works with the existing systems. It doesn't matter how easy Linux is; it's one more thing to keep track of and one more thing to go wrong. If you want to win the open source battle at small organisations that don't already have OS operating system tendencies, focus on the application level where you can make a strong business case on a feature-by-feature level, and with additional arguments about truly open data being more sustainable and less risky. Personally I think that an open source or bust attitude is not very pragmatic. Sell open source software where it is the best tool for the job, but pick your battles. Jason -Original Message- From: Alex Mandel Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 4:25 PM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Re: Comparision between MapServer/OpenLayers and ESRI ArcIMS That would be fear of the unknown(non gui) and job security at work. Wouldn't want someone else in the org who knows more about running servers. Maybe you can get them to throw a bone to demo something on a virtual machine hosted elsewhere(Amazon) just to show how easy it is. Welcome to the land of small to medium government agencies, etc. The best thing here is showing examples from equivalent groups, of which there are plenty online now. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss -- Richard Desrochers ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Re: Comparison between MapServer/OpenLayers and ESRI ArcIMS
Yea and eventually North Korea will launch a nuclear weapon at the USA so better safe than sorry. Me, I'm looking at the Principality of Sealand. -- James Fee http://www.spatiallyadjusted.com On May 31, 2009, at 5:34 PM, Richard Desrochers wrote: One thing to consider using a cloud approach with Amazon is the license agreement concerning your data. Under the Patriot Act in the US all data hosted in the US could be made available to the US government. Not all corporations are ready to live with that. Richard 2009/5/30 Randy George rkgeo...@cadmaps.com Cloud options are looking interesting. http://aws.amazon.com/ec2/ Windows, Linux, Solaris options I imagine ESRI license entanglement with virtual servers could be a problem. But no problem at all with Open Source GIS stacks. No license to get tangled with load balancing and auto scaling where servers come and go as needed. Mostly I've seen small business interest since they tend to take overhead costs more seriously. It might be useful to include a Cloud based server solution addendum, because that would be less optimal for an ESRI vendor and could look good compared to in-house hardware. Unfortunately, medium and large organizations seem to have budget allocations already in place for the big ticket approach. But then in this economy even that could be changing. AWS now includes Load Balancing and Auto Scaling options as well as S3 Backup, multiple offsite elastic block store duplication, edge cache, and elastic IP. http://aws.amazon.com/about-aws/whats-new/2009/05/17/monitoring-auto-scaling-elastic-load-balancing/ And for the real bleeding edge http://aws.amazon.com/elasticmapreduce/ (Not a selling point to small, medium, or large organizations, unless academically oriented :-) rkgeorge -Original Message- From: discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org [mailto:discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org ] On Behalf Of Jason Birch Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 5:49 PM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Re: Comparision between MapServer/ OpenLayers and ESRI ArcIMS I think that it's generally less fear of the unknown or job security than it is the cost of adding complexity to what is often an already over-extended support load. In many cases it just makes sense to spend $1000 for a server OS that doesn't require additional training, is easy to get qualified techs for, and just works with the existing systems. It doesn't matter how easy Linux is; it's one more thing to keep track of and one more thing to go wrong. If you want to win the open source battle at small organisations that don't already have OS operating system tendencies, focus on the application level where you can make a strong business case on a feature-by-feature level, and with additional arguments about truly open data being more sustainable and less risky. Personally I think that an open source or bust attitude is not very pragmatic. Sell open source software where it is the best tool for the job, but pick your battles. Jason -Original Message- From: Alex Mandel Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 4:25 PM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Re: Comparision between MapServer/ OpenLayers and ESRI ArcIMS That would be fear of the unknown(non gui) and job security at work. Wouldn't want someone else in the org who knows more about running servers. Maybe you can get them to throw a bone to demo something on a virtual machine hosted elsewhere(Amazon) just to show how easy it is. Welcome to the land of small to medium government agencies, etc. The best thing here is showing examples from equivalent groups, of which there are plenty online now. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss -- Richard Desrochers ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Re: Comparison between MapServer/OpenLayers and ESRI ArcIMS
However, they (the US govt.) don’t even need a specific legal provision to spy on data that is hosted outside the US, and they’ve been doing that since forever… ;-) From: discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org [mailto:discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org] On Behalf Of Richard Desrochers Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2009 8:34 PM To: rkgeo...@cadmaps.com; OSGeo Discussions Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Re: Comparison between MapServer/OpenLayers and ESRI ArcIMS One thing to consider using a cloud approach with Amazon is the license agreement concerning your data. Under the Patriot Act in the US all data hosted in the US could be made available to the US government. Not all corporations are ready to live with that. Richard 2009/5/30 Randy George rkgeo...@cadmaps.commailto:rkgeo...@cadmaps.com Cloud options are looking interesting. http://aws.amazon.com/ec2/ Windows, Linux, Solaris options I imagine ESRI license entanglement with virtual servers could be a problem. But no problem at all with Open Source GIS stacks. No license to get tangled with load balancing and auto scaling where servers come and go as needed. Mostly I've seen small business interest since they tend to take overhead costs more seriously. It might be useful to include a Cloud based server solution addendum, because that would be less optimal for an ESRI vendor and could look good compared to in-house hardware. Unfortunately, medium and large organizations seem to have budget allocations already in place for the big ticket approach. But then in this economy even that could be changing. AWS now includes Load Balancing and Auto Scaling options as well as S3 Backup, multiple offsite elastic block store duplication, edge cache, and elastic IP. http://aws.amazon.com/about-aws/whats-new/2009/05/17/monitoring-auto-scaling-elastic-load-balancing/ And for the real bleeding edge http://aws.amazon.com/elasticmapreduce/ (Not a selling point to small, medium, or large organizations, unless academically oriented :-) rkgeorge -Original Message- From: discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.orgmailto:discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org [mailto:discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.orgmailto:discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org] On Behalf Of Jason Birch Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 5:49 PM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Re: Comparision between MapServer/OpenLayers and ESRI ArcIMS I think that it's generally less fear of the unknown or job security than it is the cost of adding complexity to what is often an already over-extended support load. In many cases it just makes sense to spend $1000 for a server OS that doesn't require additional training, is easy to get qualified techs for, and just works with the existing systems. It doesn't matter how easy Linux is; it's one more thing to keep track of and one more thing to go wrong. If you want to win the open source battle at small organisations that don't already have OS operating system tendencies, focus on the application level where you can make a strong business case on a feature-by-feature level, and with additional arguments about truly open data being more sustainable and less risky. Personally I think that an open source or bust attitude is not very pragmatic. Sell open source software where it is the best tool for the job, but pick your battles. Jason -Original Message- From: Alex Mandel Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 4:25 PM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Re: Comparision between MapServer/OpenLayers and ESRI ArcIMS That would be fear of the unknown(non gui) and job security at work. Wouldn't want someone else in the org who knows more about running servers. Maybe you can get them to throw a bone to demo something on a virtual machine hosted elsewhere(Amazon) just to show how easy it is. Welcome to the land of small to medium government agencies, etc. The best thing here is showing examples from equivalent groups, of which there are plenty online now. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.orgmailto:Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss -- Richard Desrochers ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Re: Comparison between MapServer/OpenLayers and ESRI ArcIMS
Cloud options are looking interesting. http://aws.amazon.com/ec2/ Windows, Linux, Solaris options I imagine ESRI license entanglement with virtual servers could be a problem. But no problem at all with Open Source GIS stacks. No license to get tangled with load balancing and auto scaling where servers come and go as needed. Mostly I've seen small business interest since they tend to take overhead costs more seriously. It might be useful to include a Cloud based server solution addendum, because that would be less optimal for an ESRI vendor and could look good compared to in-house hardware. Unfortunately, medium and large organizations seem to have budget allocations already in place for the big ticket approach. But then in this economy even that could be changing. AWS now includes Load Balancing and Auto Scaling options as well as S3 Backup, multiple offsite elastic block store duplication, edge cache, and elastic IP. http://aws.amazon.com/about-aws/whats-new/2009/05/17/monitoring-auto-scaling-elastic-load-balancing/ And for the real bleeding edge http://aws.amazon.com/elasticmapreduce/ (Not a selling point to small, medium, or large organizations, unless academically oriented :-) rkgeorge -Original Message- From: discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org [mailto:discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org] On Behalf Of Jason Birch Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 5:49 PM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Re: Comparision between MapServer/OpenLayers and ESRI ArcIMS I think that it's generally less fear of the unknown or job security than it is the cost of adding complexity to what is often an already over-extended support load. In many cases it just makes sense to spend $1000 for a server OS that doesn't require additional training, is easy to get qualified techs for, and just works with the existing systems. It doesn't matter how easy Linux is; it's one more thing to keep track of and one more thing to go wrong. If you want to win the open source battle at small organisations that don't already have OS operating system tendencies, focus on the application level where you can make a strong business case on a feature-by-feature level, and with additional arguments about truly open data being more sustainable and less risky. Personally I think that an open source or bust attitude is not very pragmatic. Sell open source software where it is the best tool for the job, but pick your battles. Jason -Original Message- From: Alex Mandel Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 4:25 PM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Re: Comparision between MapServer/OpenLayers and ESRI ArcIMS That would be fear of the unknown(non gui) and job security at work. Wouldn't want someone else in the org who knows more about running servers. Maybe you can get them to throw a bone to demo something on a virtual machine hosted elsewhere(Amazon) just to show how easy it is. Welcome to the land of small to medium government agencies, etc. The best thing here is showing examples from equivalent groups, of which there are plenty online now. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Re: Comparison between MapServer/OpenLayers and ESRI ArcIMS
WeoGeo has FME Server running in the Amazon Cloud. Hopefully next week at the FME User Conference they'll release their benchmarks and see what it can do scaling up. - James Fee Sent from my iPhone On May 30, 2009, at 3:38 PM, Randy George rkgeo...@cadmaps.com wrote: Cloud options are looking interesting. http://aws.amazon.com/ec2/ Windows, Linux, Solaris options I imagine ESRI license entanglement with virtual servers could be a problem. But no problem at all with Open Source GIS stacks. No license to get tangled with load balancing and auto scaling where servers come and go as needed. Mostly I've seen small business interest since they tend to take overhead costs more seriously. It might be useful to include a Cloud based server solution addendum, because that would be less optimal for an ESRI vendor and could look good compared to in-house hardware. Unfortunately, medium and large organizations seem to have budget allocations already in place for the big ticket approach. But then in this economy even that could be changing. AWS now includes Load Balancing and Auto Scaling options as well as S3 Backup, multiple offsite elastic block store duplication, edge cache, and elastic IP. http://aws.amazon.com/about-aws/whats-new/2009/05/17/monitoring-auto-scaling-elastic-load-balancing/ And for the real bleeding edge http://aws.amazon.com/elasticmapreduce/ (Not a selling point to small, medium, or large organizations, unless academically oriented :-) rkgeorge -Original Message- From: discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org [mailto:discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org ] On Behalf Of Jason Birch Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 5:49 PM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Re: Comparision between MapServer/ OpenLayers and ESRI ArcIMS I think that it's generally less fear of the unknown or job security than it is the cost of adding complexity to what is often an already over-extended support load. In many cases it just makes sense to spend $1000 for a server OS that doesn't require additional training, is easy to get qualified techs for, and just works with the existing systems. It doesn't matter how easy Linux is; it's one more thing to keep track of and one more thing to go wrong. If you want to win the open source battle at small organisations that don't already have OS operating system tendencies, focus on the application level where you can make a strong business case on a feature-by-feature level, and with additional arguments about truly open data being more sustainable and less risky. Personally I think that an open source or bust attitude is not very pragmatic. Sell open source software where it is the best tool for the job, but pick your battles. Jason -Original Message- From: Alex Mandel Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 4:25 PM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Re: Comparision between MapServer/ OpenLayers and ESRI ArcIMS That would be fear of the unknown(non gui) and job security at work. Wouldn't want someone else in the org who knows more about running servers. Maybe you can get them to throw a bone to demo something on a virtual machine hosted elsewhere(Amazon) just to show how easy it is. Welcome to the land of small to medium government agencies, etc. The best thing here is showing examples from equivalent groups, of which there are plenty online now. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
