Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Promoting freely available geodata
I am following up on this thread, and cross-posting to several lists -- sorry for the noise -- to inform you all of my related activities. I have spent the past five days in Atibaia, Brazil at a CODATA-organized (http://www.codata.org) workshop on Open Access to Scientific Data (http://www.cria.org.br/eventos/codata2007/). Besides representatives from all the science academies from Latin America and the Caribbean, as well as from India, China, and the US, many open access advocates, including John Wilbanks from Science Commons, were present. The meeting was concerned with all kinds of scientific data, geospatial data being a small but significant portion of the same. Besides myself, Harland Onsrud from U of Maine, Orono, were carrying the open geospatial torch. On 3/30/07, Chris Holmes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: .. I just got off the phone with the lead counsel of Science Commons, which is the branch of CC made to deal with data. It was an interesting conversation, though unfortunately not much good news for CC licenses for Geodata. .. Chris's summary above describes the current position correctly. So, what is the way out? Well, it is easier for those who create geospatial data from scratch going forward. The general recommendation is that you slap a CC-license on it and put the data in public domain. A strong-ish model for this is a geodata commons (http://geodatacommons.umaine.edu/download.php). Of course, even better might be to just waive all your rights in it, but that may not be a viable alternative for many. The problem, of course, is that most people don't create geospatial data from scratch. Most of us take existing data whose provenance is indeterminable and then we build upon it. Well, since we end up using existing data, we are at risk of violating someone else's rights. One belief is that in such a case as well waiving one's own rights might be helpful. A related belief is that put it out there and wait to see if someone will sue you. The general sense is that no one has been sued *yet*. CC agrees that it does not have a clear and hopeful position on geospatial data, but John Wilbanks and I shook hands whereby Science Commons has agreed in principle to work with the geospatial community to help develop clarity on this issue. Tomorrow I will be at INPE, the Brazilian Space Research Institute in São José dos Campos, where there is a tremendous amount of interest *and* activity in open geospatial data and research. It is really heartening to see very large and important research institutions such as INPE be a strong practicing advocate of open source and open access. Finally, I have a Fellowship from the National Academy of Science this summer working on open access to public sector information including geospatial and environmental data. I hope to continue to serve OSGeo's and open geospatial communities interests in the science policy circles. To summarize -- 1. The scientific community as a whole wants open and permanent access to scientific data, and that includes raw research data, not just the publishable results of it; 2. GeoSpatial data are a small but significant portion of the corpus of science data, so it is very important to continue to maintain an active and vocal presence in the dialong; 3. As is, data can't be copyrighted. For those creating data, the best option going forward might be to put them in a public commons; better yet, waive all rights to them. Of course, this may not be a viable alternative for many. This area is murky at best, since there is confusion between facts and data about facts; 4. For those doing research utilizing existing data that don't come with a clear position on their provenance, (besides not using such data) the best one can do is to waive one's own rights in the research, and then wait till someone sues. Of course, this too is less than satisfactory; 5. Work is needed to create a clear and unequivocal set of statements and facts on the existing situation. As is, the situation is murky, and not knowing what one can do itself is a big deterrent to doing something; 6. I will be in a position to serve the open geospatial community's interests in the ongoing dialog about access to scientific data, especially the public sector scientific data, so please send your thoughts and ideas to me via this list. Educate me on your concerns via this list so I can contribute to the dialog at the Academies and other agencies in Washington DC this summer and beyond. Best regards. Now I go out to enjoy the late Fall sunshine in Southern Brasiooo. -- Puneet Kishor http://punkish.eidesis.org/ Ph. D. Program, Nelson Institute, UW-Madison http://www.nelson.wisc.edu/ Vice President, Open Source Geospatial Foundation http://www.osgeo.org/ Fellow, National Academy of Science http://www.nationalacademies.org - collaborate, communicate, compete
RE: [Geodata] Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Promoting freely available geodata
Thanks for that Link Michael. It will be useful. Landon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Adair, Mike Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 10:38 AM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: RE: [Geodata] Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Promoting freely available geodata More from the Canadian perspective - the GeoConnections program policy group has produced a Best Practices Guide for licensing of geospatial data which might help to inform the debate: http://www.geoconnections.org/publications/Best_practices_guide/Guide_to_Best_Practices_v12_finale_e.pdf It provides a good overview of the background issues and proposes 3 types of licences to standardize on: unrestricted-use with licence acknowledgement (click-through), an end-user licence and a distributor licence. Michael Adair GeoConnections Secretariat / Secrétariat de GéoConnexions 615 Booth St, 6th Floor / 615 rue Booth, 6e étage Ottawa, ON, K1A 0E9 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Phone / Téléphone: (613) 947-1342 Fax / Télécopieur: (613) 947-2410 www.geoconnections.org / www.geoconnexions.org -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dave Patton Sent: April 1, 2007 2:05 PM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: Re: [Geodata] Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Promoting freely available geodata Jason Birch wrote: I'm sure that most of you have seen this, but these two free data resources (provincial and federal Canadian governements) are both employing a form of copyleft: Kamloops (Canadian municipality) takes an interesting approach. Given the interest, maybe the 'OSGeo people' who are already involved could organize a BOF session, and also do some presentations. If there are 'local' resources such as Canadian municipal/provincial/federal managers(or perhaps even better, people from their legal departments) who could attend, then perhaps they could also participate in the BOF/presentations. Also, maybe there are lawyers who are local(e.g. Victoria or BC) any who have some interest or expertise who could attend - even if their perspective is based on Canadian law, it might still help illuminate the discussions. -- Dave Patton Canadian Coordinator, Degree Confluence Project http://www.confluence.org/ Personal website - Maps, GPS, etc. http://members.shaw.ca/davepatton/ ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
RE: [Geodata] Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Promoting freely available geodata
More from the Canadian perspective - the GeoConnections program policy group has produced a Best Practices Guide for licensing of geospatial data which might help to inform the debate: http://www.geoconnections.org/publications/Best_practices_guide/Guide_to_Best_Practices_v12_finale_e.pdf It provides a good overview of the background issues and proposes 3 types of licences to standardize on: unrestricted-use with licence acknowledgement (click-through), an end-user licence and a distributor licence. Michael Adair GeoConnections Secretariat / Secrétariat de GéoConnexions 615 Booth St, 6th Floor / 615 rue Booth, 6e étage Ottawa, ON, K1A 0E9 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Phone / Téléphone: (613) 947-1342 Fax / Télécopieur: (613) 947-2410 www.geoconnections.org / www.geoconnexions.org -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dave Patton Sent: April 1, 2007 2:05 PM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: Re: [Geodata] Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Promoting freely available geodata Jason Birch wrote: I'm sure that most of you have seen this, but these two free data resources (provincial and federal Canadian governements) are both employing a form of copyleft: Kamloops (Canadian municipality) takes an interesting approach. Given the interest, maybe the 'OSGeo people' who are already involved could organize a BOF session, and also do some presentations. If there are 'local' resources such as Canadian municipal/provincial/federal managers(or perhaps even better, people from their legal departments) who could attend, then perhaps they could also participate in the BOF/presentations. Also, maybe there are lawyers who are local(e.g. Victoria or BC) any who have some interest or expertise who could attend - even if their perspective is based on Canadian law, it might still help illuminate the discussions. -- Dave Patton Canadian Coordinator, Degree Confluence Project http://www.confluence.org/ Personal website - Maps, GPS, etc. http://members.shaw.ca/davepatton/ ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [Geodata] Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Promoting freely available geodata
Jason Birch wrote: I'm sure that most of you have seen this, but these two free data resources (provincial and federal Canadian governements) are both employing a form of copyleft: Kamloops (Canadian municipality) takes an interesting approach. Given the interest, maybe the 'OSGeo people' who are already involved could organize a BOF session, and also do some presentations. If there are 'local' resources such as Canadian municipal/provincial/federal managers(or perhaps even better, people from their legal departments) who could attend, then perhaps they could also participate in the BOF/presentations. Also, maybe there are lawyers who are local(e.g. Victoria or BC) any who have some interest or expertise who could attend - even if their perspective is based on Canadian law, it might still help illuminate the discussions. -- Dave Patton Canadian Coordinator, Degree Confluence Project http://www.confluence.org/ Personal website - Maps, GPS, etc. http://members.shaw.ca/davepatton/ ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Promoting freely available geodata
Chris Holmes wrote: Do you have a link to the Database Directive stuff on osm-talk? I checked out the list but there's a lot there and wasn't sure which posts to read. I just got off the phone with the lead counsel of Science Commons, which is the branch of CC made to deal with data. It was an interesting conversation, though unfortunately not much good news for CC licenses for Geodata. Thanks for all this :-) The very quick story is that they don't believe copyright can be applied to any geospatial data. Thus creative commons licenses don't work, since The thing with that argument is that there are lots of people with data and money who probably hold the opposite view, eg Ordnance Survey. This was data only right, not cartographic interpretations eg maps? they depend on copyright. So people providing data have two options - public domain or make a contract that completely restricts it. Yes, I've been thinking about the latter. He did give some insight in to how one would make such a regime of licenses if one wanted to. Copyright law doesn't work, since you can't copyright data. Maps can be copyrighted, but if you can reverse engineer and extract the data out of them, then that result can not be copyrighted. IANAL. We have case law here in the UK where big company a (the AA) was taken to court by b (the OS) because they copied their maps. The clincher was that they also copied fake streets, easter eggs, trap streets in the map. This gave away that they copied 'their' map. So does it fall down because these are not facts, they're creative secrets? If in your next conversation or otherwise you could ask about this it would be super helpful. So what you would have to do is use contract law. It would be a contract similar to a non-disclosure agreement - you can't disclose the information contained in this database unless you follow the set terms. And you could do copyleft type things in the terms, but it's definitely trickier, and you somehow have to get people to accept that contract. Which I suppose isn't insurmountable, since Google Maps and their data providers manage to get you to accept a contract to not reverse engineer and use tiles off line and the like. It would be super useful if you could also ask 'can we use a CC license as a contract? That is, if the data is not copyrightable, can we say to people you may use this data AS IF IT WERE copyrightable, with this CC license if they sign a contract / tick a box' have fun, SteveC [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.asklater.com/steve/ ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Promoting freely available geodata
Chris Holmes wrote: Do you have a link to the Database Directive stuff on osm-talk? I checked out the list but there's a lot there and wasn't sure which posts to read. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Database_directive mostly it just follows from that page... maybe richard could help more? have fun, SteveC [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.asklater.com/steve/ ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [Geodata] Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Promoting freely available geodata
On 3/30/07, Jason Birch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kamloops (Canadian municipality) takes an interesting approach. They have a click-through, but it's not asserting any rights, just disclaiming liability. Their GIS manager explained that they are essentially placing the data into public domain: I like the Kamloops language and may barrow a bit of it (assuming it's not copyrighted g). Below is a link to some language I wrote, and that has been out there for about 10 years. I am not suggesting that it is exemplary because I'm sure not a lawyer, but it has a unique clause requiring reciprocal data sharing by users. The county for which I wrote the statement requires surveyors and engineers to provide digital files (AutoCad, etc.) for new subdivisions and other developments. http://www2.tetonwyo.org/gis/download/default.asp Rich -- Richard Greenwood [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.greenwoodmap.com ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Promoting freely available geodata
Dear all It's incredibly cool that governments are thinking of using CC foe geodata. Our legal-talk and other lists have found a whole ton of problems with it though (we use a CC license in OSM). I'd be super interested in seeing the results and if any lawyers think that they're valid for geodata - and if they looked at the Database Directive and its impact. As would we all on legal-talk. Arnulf Christl wrote: On Fri, March 30, 2007 06:36, Tim Bowden wrote: On Thu, 2007-03-29 at 08:22 +1000, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 28/03/2007 04:45:26 PM: On of the aims of OSGeo is the promotion of open geodata. From conversations I've had with various people over time it appears one of the difficulties data providers may have with this is licensing. There's no obvious candidate license for open geodata. Do we need something like OSI approved licenses for geodata? Are there any existing OSI licenses that suit? If so, we should be pointing to them. Do we need input from those with a legal clue? Should we be talking to OSI about this? Just thought I'd raise the issue and see what others think. Tim Bowden I can report that the government in Queensland, Australia is considering the creative commons liscence for releasing publically- available geodata. It is not final, but close to it. nick Nick, this is great news. Can't wait for this idea to infect other govt's in our region. The idea that user pays /in every instance/ has taken hold much too firmly down here (especially when we have already paid through our taxes!). Regards, Tim Bowden Several states in Germany (we are federal, everybody runs in a different direction) are also considering to use a CC license to protect some of their data and publish it for Open and Free access. We are currently trying to convince them that the non-commercial-use clause might be more anti-commercial in its effect than it will help them to earn money but whichever way it goes, it is the right overall direction. This is one exmaple of what is there already: http://www.geoportal.rlp.de/ Btw: The portal is built on Open Source completely. Some 70+ services are already available, they come in all makes and colors. Most of the data is currently not protected by any license at all, some have a copyright tag somewhere. It is a pain, but it is getting better. Never stop talking to them, they need all the moral support they can get. :-) Regards, Arnulf Christl ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss -- have fun, SteveC [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.asklater.com/steve/ ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Promoting freely available geodata
Do you have a link to the Database Directive stuff on osm-talk? I checked out the list but there's a lot there and wasn't sure which posts to read. I just got off the phone with the lead counsel of Science Commons, which is the branch of CC made to deal with data. It was an interesting conversation, though unfortunately not much good news for CC licenses for Geodata. The very quick story is that they don't believe copyright can be applied to any geospatial data. Thus creative commons licenses don't work, since they depend on copyright. So people providing data have two options - public domain or make a contract that completely restricts it. The longer story is that the Science Commons initiative is about getting science data more available, which unlike geospatial data is something that traditionally has been available for all, only published papers about the data were under copyright. So they would be very hesitant to create a regime for data licensing that would make it easier for people to put more restrictions on their data. They are launching a 'facts are free' campaign soon to get across to the world that one can't copyright scientific data. I can see this strategy working decently for science, but unfortunately it doesn't for geospatial. The legacy we're dealing with is that maps are power, and something to be kept private for military advantage or economic gain. We really want a regime that gives a variety of licenses that are more restrictive than public domain but less so than completely keeping private. The lawyer at CC definitely 'got' this, but unfortunately it doesn't line up with their mission, since most of the topics they're pushing on benefit from the fact that you can't copyright facts. He did give some insight in to how one would make such a regime of licenses if one wanted to. Copyright law doesn't work, since you can't copyright data. Maps can be copyrighted, but if you can reverse engineer and extract the data out of them, then that result can not be copyrighted. So what you would have to do is use contract law. It would be a contract similar to a non-disclosure agreement - you can't disclose the information contained in this database unless you follow the set terms. And you could do copyleft type things in the terms, but it's definitely trickier, and you somehow have to get people to accept that contract. Which I suppose isn't insurmountable, since Google Maps and their data providers manage to get you to accept a contract to not reverse engineer and use tiles off line and the like. He was also worried a bit about license incompatibilities, but personally since they're are practically no open data licenses, that's not so much a worry for me. So unfortunately CC isn't going to be much help to us. CC themselves believe pure data licensed under the CC isn't enforceable in any way, since it's not copyrightable and so their license doesn't apply. And Science Commons (who anyone in CC will point you to if you want to do data, because CC is for creative works) can't really touch it since it sort of works against their mission. So if we want to do this right we need to find a lawyer who would construct a set of contracts for us and guidelines on how to apply them and get others to accept them. Ideally I think we'd have an 'lgpl' type option where only modifications to the database need to also be open, and a 'gpl' one where anything derived has to be similarly open (which would make it incompatible with things). Though I suppose we could also just recommend CC, and not tell people that once they put it out there it's really in the public domain ;) (since CC wouldn't go to bat for it, it effectively is since it's uncopyrightable facts that we can easily copy). best regards, Chris On Fri, March 30, 2007 1:24 pm, SteveC wrote: Dear all It's incredibly cool that governments are thinking of using CC foe geodata. Our legal-talk and other lists have found a whole ton of problems with it though (we use a CC license in OSM). I'd be super interested in seeing the results and if any lawyers think that they're valid for geodata - and if they looked at the Database Directive and its impact. As would we all on legal-talk. Arnulf Christl wrote: On Fri, March 30, 2007 06:36, Tim Bowden wrote: On Thu, 2007-03-29 at 08:22 +1000, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 28/03/2007 04:45:26 PM: On of the aims of OSGeo is the promotion of open geodata. From conversations I've had with various people over time it appears one of the difficulties data providers may have with this is licensing. There's no obvious candidate license for open geodata. Do we need something like OSI approved licenses for geodata? Are there any existing OSI licenses that suit? If so, we should be pointing to them. Do we need input from those with a legal clue? Should we be talking to OSI about this? Just thought I'd raise the issue and see what others
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Promoting freely available geodata
Chris, Thanks for the overview of your conversation. I appreciate your effort to contact these folks. This is something I'm trying to get my head around but without much success. Do you (or anyone else out there) have a sense for the difference between (scientific) data and maps? If I create a land cover or land cover change map in digital format is that data or a map? What about a DEM? When you talk about data is it limited to data directly recorded by an instrument or does it include something interpreted or modeled using human input? Once a human gets involved does it become creative? I would argue that most interpreted data (i.e., just about any geospatial data not directly recorded by a sensor) are creative works not unlike a copyrighted written description of something. I also wonder about facts (and fiction). Can facts have error? How much? Is it factual if the error is documented in the metadata? Of course, I'm out of my area of expertise here so maybe I'm talking nonsense. Maybe I'm panicking because I'm using the CC license for some map data sets I've created for other organizations. Ned -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chris Holmes Sent: Friday, March 30, 2007 6:59 PM To: OSGeo Discussions Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Legal Talk Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Promoting freely available geodata Do you have a link to the Database Directive stuff on osm-talk? I checked out the list but there's a lot there and wasn't sure which posts to read. I just got off the phone with the lead counsel of Science Commons, which is the branch of CC made to deal with data. It was an interesting conversation, though unfortunately not much good news for CC licenses for Geodata. The very quick story is that they don't believe copyright can be applied to any geospatial data. Thus creative commons licenses don't work, since they depend on copyright. So people providing data have two options - public domain or make a contract that completely restricts it. The longer story is that the Science Commons initiative is about getting science data more available, which unlike geospatial data is something that traditionally has been available for all, only published papers about the data were under copyright. So they would be very hesitant to create a regime for data licensing that would make it easier for people to put more restrictions on their data. They are launching a 'facts are free' campaign soon to get across to the world that one can't copyright scientific data. I can see this strategy working decently for science, but unfortunately it doesn't for geospatial. The legacy we're dealing with is that maps are power, and something to be kept private for military advantage or economic gain. We really want a regime that gives a variety of licenses that are more restrictive than public domain but less so than completely keeping private. The lawyer at CC definitely 'got' this, but unfortunately it doesn't line up with their mission, since most of the topics they're pushing on benefit from the fact that you can't copyright facts. He did give some insight in to how one would make such a regime of licenses if one wanted to. Copyright law doesn't work, since you can't copyright data. Maps can be copyrighted, but if you can reverse engineer and extract the data out of them, then that result can not be copyrighted. So what you would have to do is use contract law. It would be a contract similar to a non-disclosure agreement - you can't disclose the information contained in this database unless you follow the set terms. And you could do copyleft type things in the terms, but it's definitely trickier, and you somehow have to get people to accept that contract. Which I suppose isn't insurmountable, since Google Maps and their data providers manage to get you to accept a contract to not reverse engineer and use tiles off line and the like. He was also worried a bit about license incompatibilities, but personally since they're are practically no open data licenses, that's not so much a worry for me. So unfortunately CC isn't going to be much help to us. CC themselves believe pure data licensed under the CC isn't enforceable in any way, since it's not copyrightable and so their license doesn't apply. And Science Commons (who anyone in CC will point you to if you want to do data, because CC is for creative works) can't really touch it since it sort of works against their mission. So if we want to do this right we need to find a lawyer who would construct a set of contracts for us and guidelines on how to apply them and get others to accept them. Ideally I think we'd have an 'lgpl' type option where only modifications to the database need to also be open, and a 'gpl' one where anything derived has to be similarly open (which would make it incompatible with things). Though I suppose
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Promoting freely available geodata
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 28/03/2007 04:45:26 PM: On of the aims of OSGeo is the promotion of open geodata. From conversations I've had with various people over time it appears one of the difficulties data providers may have with this is licensing. There's no obvious candidate license for open geodata. Do we need something like OSI approved licenses for geodata? Are there any existing OSI licenses that suit? If so, we should be pointing to them. Do we need input from those with a legal clue? Should we be talking to OSI about this? Just thought I'd raise the issue and see what others think. Tim Bowden I can report that the government in Queensland, Australia is considering the creative commons liscence for releasing publically- available geodata. It is not final, but close to it. nick Opinions contained in this e-mail do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the Queensland Department of Main Roads, Queensland Transport or Maritime Safety Queensland, or endorsed organisations utilising the same infrastructure. If you have received this electronic mail message in error, please immediately notify the sender and delete the message from your computer. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
